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42 Comments
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 at 08:09 AM
Why Irish Catholics are no different from Muslims
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Last Monday, George Marlin published an article in The New York Post entitled “Catholics' lessons for U.S. Muslims.”
Marlin is an interesting thinker who writes often about overlooked aspects of Irish American and Catholic American history.
“In earlier times,” Marlin wrote on Monday, “tens of millions who came through Ellis Island quickly embraced their new nation and what it stood for and refuted the charge that there was a conflict between their religious or ethnic loyalty and patriotism."
I have interviewed George Marlin in the past and found him to be genial and well-informed. So it is with respect that I disagree with his very charitable look back at the how the Irish and other Catholic immigrants assimilated.
In fact, it could be argued that Catholic efforts to assimilate into the American mainstream were more similar than different from current Muslim efforts.
I’d go so far as to say that the Irish took part in more so-called “un-American activities” than today’s immigrants. Imagine, for example, if 20,000 Middle Eastern immigrants congregated at Madison Square Garden to rally for the cause of, say, Palestinian independence.
Well, that’s just what many New York Irish Catholics did in 1916 after the Easter Rising in Dublin, which aimed to achieve Irish independence.
By 1917, America entered into World War I alongside the Brits, much to the chagrin of Irish nationalists in America such as John Devoy. Indeed, some factions in the Irish community were more than willing to undermine America’s allies (the Brits) and ponder alliances with America’s enemies (the Germans) in the name of a free Ireland.
This may have been a small slice of Irish America. But it is far too simplistic to suggest that Irish Americans in particular and immigrant Catholics in general came to the U.S. and forgot about their homelands. Not for nothing did President Woodrow Wilson lament “hyphenated Americans.” His comments may have been tinged with xenophobia, but Wilson was right on one thing: many ethnic Americans did have dual allegiances.
Even on the eve of World War II, Irish Catholic members of extremist groups such as the Christian Mobilizers found common ground with the Bund and other groups linked to Hitler’s Germany.
Then again, should we be so surprised? Seventy years before Devoy and so many Irish in America proved they were willing to negotiate with America’s enemies, Galway native John Patrick Riley and about 200 other Irish and Catholic immigrants fought against America itself in the Mexican-American war.
Back then they were executed as traitors loyal to Rome. Today, The Chieftains sing songs about the St. Patricio Brigade.
None of this changes the fact that a majority of Irish Catholics were willing to become patriotic Americans. Just as some immigrants were launching a crusade for Irish independence from U.S. soil, many others went off to fight alongside the Brits for their new nation.
As George Marlin notes: “During World War I, more than 1.1 million immigrant Catholics … joined the US Armed Forces. More than 20 percent of the troops who served in the war were Church members, and many served with distinction. Col. ‘Wild Bill’ Donovan, who led the famed ‘Fighting Irish’ 69th Regiment from New York, was awarded the Medal of Honor.”
And yet, the very existence of a “Fighting Irish” regiment proves that ethnic allegiances were not set aside so easily. Imagine if today’s military allowed a “Fighting Dominican” or “Fighting Pakistani” brigade? And don’t give me this business that today’s immigrants don’t fight in the military. Check the names of those wounded and slain in Iraq and Afghanistan.
In the end, I would argue that while the Irish and other Catholics did embrace America, they also changed America, for the better. It might have been smart for Famine immigrants to convert in the face of 19th Century anti-Catholicism. But the Irish held onto their beliefs and eventually convinced Americans to accept Catholicism and other minority religions.
Immigrant union leaders, meanwhile, changed the way Americans thought about working conditions and – yes – nationalists figured out a way to harness Irish American power to bring peace to the homeland.
The Irish were the first large-scale immigrant group to do this. Despite what some say, I suspect they will not be the last.
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Posted by Nicoletta on Sep 09, 2010, 08:20 AM EDT
Dear Tom, you simply don't get it. The Irish in America (or England, where many settled too!) are able to integrate whilst retaining their identity. Muslims from wherever are unable to do this. They insist on imposing their way of life on the indigent population. In parts of the UK with only a small percentage of Muslims - all school children can only have halal food at school. Barbaric Sharia law is incompatible with western society and yet goes on subversively. Polygamy is common, which accounts for the huge increase in birth rate in Muslim dominated areas.
The liberal west is the greatest gift to radical Islam.
Posted by maloney on Sep 07, 2010, 10:22 PM EDT
Kill em all & let Allah sort em out.
Posted by islandgirl21 on Sep 07, 2010, 02:36 PM EDT
Irish and other Catholic immigrants ability to embrace America and perhaps change it was because the immigrants' religious and cultural beliefs were not alien or foreign to those already present in the United States. But Muslims will not be able convince Americans or any Westerners to accept Sharia law, honor killings, suicide bombings, beheadings, and attitudes of the dark ages in regards to the rights of woman and children.
Posted by Monsoonman on Sep 05, 2010, 12:38 PM EDT
Whats this victim mentality that seems to pervade the thinking here? I think some have riddeen it into an industry supported by the taxpayers, always looking for an "issue", to litigate over, or to get special treatment. How about getting past all of this and becoming self sufficient citizens who don't ask what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country? Now that would be refreshing to hear from the entitlement crowd....It would make JFK proud.
Posted by dolleanpatrice on Sep 04, 2010, 04:19 PM EDT
I see and undrestand just a wee bit more then some or perhaps. try being an irish african american catholic. it is always with feaar and mistrust america has greeted its immigrants but all to happy to have us do the heavy lifting and dirty work. still all and all not as bad as the British turning a blind eye during the famine that brought my great grandfather to these shores. before you saay every and all of anyone else please rrember those are the words used to descrie us as in "drunkand irishmen" understanding first last and always
Posted by maloney on Sep 02, 2010, 07:12 PM EDT
tom deignan...I'll not bother going item by item to show that you are frothy around the ears. Can you say sharia!! They also believe you must lie and deceive to get the trust of non-muslims to defeat them. Get a grip..
Posted by MikeLeahy on Sep 02, 2010, 02:31 PM EDT
Americans today would be scandalized at the comparison between the Irish and today's Muslims. But America has always had deep seeded suspicions for "the foreigner". It's ironic that a country founded on religious tolerance has been so historically untolerant.
The British government's treatment of the native Irish was so dispicable that I understand the response of Irish Americans about fighting with or against the British. The British however, brought them all upon themselves.
In 2010 Irish-Americans have forgiven the Brits for the most part (exempting right wing whackos like Margaret Thatcher). If you want to see close mindedness take a close look at the Unionists in the North of Ireland.
Posted by eileenkny on Sep 02, 2010, 11:34 AM EDT
I'm old enough to remember my parents watching JFK's rebuttal to those that said he'd be loyal to Rome if he were elected President. When my father came here, the only job he could get was as a bellhop, even though he was a tailor by trade. For many of today's immigrants, it's not much different-ie the doctors from India working as nurses' aides because they can't practice here.
It's so sad that there's now a word "Islamaphobic" as if it's the whole religion we have to be afraid of.
Posted by jamieLM on Sep 02, 2010, 08:59 AM EDT
Agree with bogsidebunny, Temerity, patrick1945, haywraps, and jacersisityourself. You've said it all.
Posted by bogsidebunny on Sep 02, 2010, 04:22 AM EDT
When you compare Islam and Catholicism you're comparing apples and oranges.
Catholicism is a Christian religion.
Islam is not a religion.
Islam is an ideology.
The Islamic ideology dictates the subversion of ALL but Muslims through stealth.
Posted by Temerity on Sep 02, 2010, 02:23 AM EDT
The comparison is wrong for starters Americans were already Christian and at no time did they discriminate agaisnt Americans and call them infidels and 911 would nevr have been on their agenda.
Get real mate.
Posted by DennisQ on Sep 02, 2010, 02:22 AM EDT
I'm amazed at the number of people who hold forth on the subject of the Muslim mind, as if they knew anything at all about it. These people have never travelled to a Muslim country, don't read Arabic, are are completely unfamiliar with the Quran. Instead they get their information from people who are not at all neutral and not at all interested in presenting the facts honestly and fairly.
We've just wrapped up the combat portion of the war in Iraq, which was sold to us on the basis that Saddam had WMD's and was in league with Al Qaeda. Because neither of these was true, it's an open question what 4,400 Americans died for in Iraq. If Saddam wasn't a threat, then what did these young Americans die for?
There's much to be gained by understanding the realities of a situation before advocating policies that don't work to our advantage at all. America depends on the good will of Muslim moderates; otherwise the extremists will simply take over. But at the same time, people who really don't know anything are saying we should denounce all Muslims as cut from the same cloth; that is, they're all out to convert us or kill us or both. One person even described Muslims as vermin.
The world is too small for us to entertain backward ideas like the notion that one religion is good and another religion is bad. Some people actually think this is true! We need our best understanding of our fellow human beings, not our worst.
Think you know all about Muslims? When's the last time you read an Arab newspaper?
We've just wrapped up the combat portion of the war in Iraq, which was sold to us on the basis that Saddam had WMD's and was in league with Al Qaeda. Because neither of these was true, it's an open question what 4,400 Americans died for in Iraq. If Saddam wasn't a threat, then what did these young Americans die for?
There's much to be gained by understanding the realities of a situation before advocating policies that don't work to our advantage at all. America depends on the good will of Muslim moderates; otherwise the extremists will simply take over. But at the same time, people who really don't know anything are saying we should denounce all Muslims as cut from the same cloth; that is, they're all out to convert us or kill us or both. One person even described Muslims as vermin.
The world is too small for us to entertain backward ideas like the notion that one religion is good and another religion is bad. Some people actually think this is true! We need our best understanding of our fellow human beings, not our worst.
Think you know all about Muslims? When's the last time you read an Arab newspaper?
Posted by patrick1945 on Sep 01, 2010, 11:30 PM EDT
Irish immigrants want to leave their old lives behind. Muslims bring their old lives with them (Sharia Law). Irish wanted to become Americans. Muslims want America to be come Muslim.
Posted by haywraps on Sep 01, 2010, 07:46 PM EDT
Irish Catholics didnot try to KILL everyone that didnot AGREE!!! with then.
Posted by jacersisityourself on Sep 01, 2010, 07:00 PM EDT
This excellent article of Tom's ignores a huge difference between... people arriving in America who are forecedly of Muslim indoctrination under pain of a sword... and Irish Catholics arriving in America who have a choice. There's no comparison.
Posted by semperfidelis on Sep 01, 2010, 06:26 PM EDT
Well said Mr.Sinatra you nailed it. Also, Horseinmdstream, I have spoken with numerous muslims over the years.One of my very best friends whom I worked with for nearly 15 years and was one of my first partners in the investment brokerage business was an immigrant from Egypt. He was a devout muslim, gave me a gift one year, a special edition of the Koran (which we discussed plenty of times) I was his sponsor when he became a U.S. citizen and over the years my wife and I socialized on a regular basis with Rif and his wife.Over the years I met nearly his entire family and countless of his fellow muslims at get together's at his house. Sad to say my friend died of cancer in 2003.
Before he got sick and died, we had long talks about 9/11 etc. Bottomline he was appalled but not surprised in the least by what happened. He stopped going back to Egypt in the late 90's because he said things were getting nutty there. During the reception at his home after his burial much of the conversion was decidely negative re: America; even his own wishes for his service was changed by his cousins,they felt it was too western, not Islamic enough.So from my direct experience and my observing what's going on around the world, on that basis I make my comments,they don't come in a vacum based on how I "feel"
Posted by lawyer4 on Sep 01, 2010, 06:07 PM EDT
This article makes several excellent points.
Posted by IrishTierney on Sep 01, 2010, 05:58 PM EDT
Irish Catholics are very different than Muslims Tommy boy, and you have failed to convince me otherwise. Rebelforce and MrSinatra have both hit the nail right on the head with their comments. All you've succeeded in doing Tommy, is making the Deignan's look foolish. Redeem yourself!
Posted by Rebelforce on Sep 01, 2010, 04:29 PM EDT
Tommy, where on earth did you get the idiotic notion that Irish-American support for Irish freedom in Ireland suggests that they weren't "patriotic Americans"? Utter rubbish. I would suggest to you that those Americans of Irish descent who opposed British tyranny in Ireland were infact among the most patriotic Americans this country has ever produced.
Posted by MrSinatra on Sep 01, 2010, 04:26 PM EDT
in the old days, when people came to America, they wanted to become American, which didn't mean renouncing your past but did mean embracing a new culture. these days, a lot of people who come to America want America to become like them, and thats the problem.
Posted by shidoobe on Sep 01, 2010, 04:03 PM EDT
irish Catholics never hijacked 4 jetliners and killed nearly 3000 people in one day. NOT THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD, they are not, I have freinds that are of that faith.
Myself I am a Baptist, NOT IRISH CATHOLIC but the ONLY way through heaven is what Jesus Christ said ""I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Yet the Muslim Faith preaches this...
Surah 9:5 verse of the Quran, which is claimed to call upon "all" Muslims to kill "all" non-Muslims or the so-called "Infidels".
Quran say, "fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them?" (9:5).
So you tell me if Irish Catholics are like Muslims.
And BTW I hope the mosque doe snot get built near Ground Zero, how insensitive.
Posted by RiverAveGuy on Sep 01, 2010, 03:42 PM EDT
Nice try Tom, but no one believes that crap.
Posted by irishimport on Sep 01, 2010, 03:23 PM EDT
The reason John Reilly and others fought for Mexico
during the Mexican-American war was because the were
under the rule of British officers and were subjected to all kinds of religous bigotry the main reason they left Ireland in the first place
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7zZkGAvGT0
Posted by JamesMurphy on Sep 01, 2010, 01:50 PM EDT
Well out, Tom. Along similar lines, it's important to note that previous generations, like the present one being concerned about a Muslim-dominated world, became paranoid about Catholics imposing their way of life on others and, during the 1950s no thanks to the lunatic Joe McCarthy, of Communism festering unchecked. What next after Islam fails to take over the world? The Zaroastrians are going to be on the march? Please, wake up and smell that coffee.
Posted by killowen on Sep 01, 2010, 01:12 PM EDT
Such crap is hard to take. Sheer fodder for nada
Posted by Binasdad on Sep 01, 2010, 12:58 PM EDT
How often does it have to be repeated before it sinks in? The Muslum religion didn't attack us on 9/11, Al-Queda did.
As recently as 1960, President Kennedy had to reassure America that he wouldn't be taking orders from the Vatican. It is much easier to attack another religion when we forget that our religion was once under similar attack.
Posted by hancock on Sep 01, 2010, 12:52 PM EDT
Whe srtippers fly planes into skyscrapers I'll worry about them.
Posted by Irishphotograph on Sep 01, 2010, 12:39 PM EDT
John Devoy was my grandfathers uncle...David Hayes find me on Facebook.
Posted by TheYank on Sep 01, 2010, 12:30 PM EDT
wjmcgi1,
Your point on Canada misses one vital ingredient: the government and the people of the United States did not consider Canada - really, Great Britain - "friendly." They'd fought a war in 1812 - something many Americans living in the 1860s had not forgotten - and during the Civil War the British toyed with the idea of offering formal recognition to the Confederates. And, Canada offered refuge to Confederate spies and saboteurs, including John Suratt, who conspired to kidnap Lincoln and possibly was in on the later plot to kill him.
For that reason the US government had given signals to the prominent Irish leaders in and out of the Union Army that when the Civil War was over they would not interfere in their plans to invade Canada. However, the Johnson Administration got cold feet and did intervene and sailed American war ships up the Niagara River to stop the Irish from sending any more troops into Canada after they'd actually won their initial engagements.
Your point on Canada misses one vital ingredient: the government and the people of the United States did not consider Canada - really, Great Britain - "friendly." They'd fought a war in 1812 - something many Americans living in the 1860s had not forgotten - and during the Civil War the British toyed with the idea of offering formal recognition to the Confederates. And, Canada offered refuge to Confederate spies and saboteurs, including John Suratt, who conspired to kidnap Lincoln and possibly was in on the later plot to kill him.
For that reason the US government had given signals to the prominent Irish leaders in and out of the Union Army that when the Civil War was over they would not interfere in their plans to invade Canada. However, the Johnson Administration got cold feet and did intervene and sailed American war ships up the Niagara River to stop the Irish from sending any more troops into Canada after they'd actually won their initial engagements.
Posted by HorsesInMdstrm on Sep 01, 2010, 11:14 AM EDT
To MaryM232: I'm not vermin and you have no right to call me that. I'm a military veteran. And while decidedly non-religious myself, I support the right of all religions to have places of worship.
And just to remind you. It's not solely a mosque and it is two blocks from ground zero, at roughly the same distance as a strip club, I've read (but never attended).
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