Priests and laity move to reform Catholic Church in Ireland
Two meetings to step up reform planned for this week
Published Monday, May 28, 2012, 8:29 AM
Updated Monday, May 28, 2012, 8:29 AM
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An umbrella group is to be formed to represent laity interested in reforming the Catholic Church in Ireland.
The Irish Times reports that a meeting will be held in Dublin on Wednesday night to discuss the formation of the group.
The proposal is a follow-on from a meeting attended by over 1,000 Catholic laity, priests and nuns three weeks ago which called for dialogue in the Irish church.
Noel McCann, one of the organisers of Wednesday’s meeting, told the paper: “We feel that an umbrella organisation will bring greater focus and cohesion to the ‘lay voice’ calling for dialogue.
“Our aim would be to establish the organisation in the mainstream, and with the moral authority coming from a significant membership so that it can become relevant to the debate on the future reform and renewal of our church.
“The intention is to discuss the options with representatives of existing groups and interested individuals at next Wednesday’s meeting, which will, hopefully, be the start of a vibrant new lay organisation which will give a real voice to those who currently feel excluded from any form of meaningful dialogue in our church.”
More information is available by contacting Noel by email at nsmccann@eircom.net.
The Association of Catholic Priests is also planning a meeting in Mayo on Wednesday night according to the paper when it will discuss plans to set up regional events similar to the recent one in Dublin. The group now has 900 priests as members.
In a statement on the ACP website, Fr Brendan Hoban emphasised: “We do not seek to overturn the defined teaching of the Catholic Church.
“ACP wants to have a conversation about the realities of Irish church life today and about issues we believe the Irish church urgently needs to discuss.
“ACP is no threat to the unity of the church. We cherish and we value and we wish to further the unity of all our people, with our fellow clergy, with religious, with our bishops and with the successor of Peter.
“We have a right and a duty to discuss the problems facing the church. Silencing us will not make the issues go away. It will only create more unhappiness, and damage the unity of the church.
“Freedom of conscience is a fundamental Christian teaching; it is not a strange or frightening concept. The word ‘dissident’ does not describe us. We are at the heart of our church, and that is where we wish to stay. So, please, work with us; talk with us; pray with us.”
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eiriamach | Jun 02, 2012, 08:20 AM EDT
LOL 89west, I am certainly not going to defend Henry VIII, and I have little love for monarchy! I'm sure you'd agree that the holiness of a Church does not depend upon holiness in its leaders or even its priests, right? Most Old Testament condemnations of 'homosexuality': this word, btw, does not appear in the King James Version, 1611 (it didn't exist), but is a modern *interpretation* of words referring to sexual immorality--ritual rapes of male youth by priests of the pagan temples in regions occupied by Israelites. You'll notice that even the VERY few New Testament new-translation references to homosexuality focus on males, a fact that again casts doubt on whether homosexuality is really the reference. It's unlikely that enough historical and biblical language evidence will emerge for scholars ever to be sure about those OT passages, and it would be interesting to find that they are ALL really condemning pedophilia--it's possible. And the contradictions about husband and wife in the NT is another enigma. Thus we stumble along to the real problem: Christians' reception of the Gospel is renewed/changed by such discoveries. So a Church must be able to confront its mistakes and undo them in a timely way to avoid their most harmful consequences. It must not be enslaved to the past.
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89west | Jun 01, 2012, 07:22 PM EDT
eirimach.......You have much to say in your several responses, however, let me try and respond to your 0828 hr. msg...The scripture I had cause to read and discuss over time, found homosexual behavior unacceptable and forcefully rejected such behavior. I further found, that the rejection of this behavior is not an arbitrary prohibition, it, like other moral imperatives is rooted in natural law. I prefer not to refute you statement on the lack of references to homosexuality by citing them from the NT, however, if need be, I can. Now of course, I must qualify what I say, by mentioning the RCC believes the words of JC are revealed to us in the gospels. Then again, JC's teachings were never written down by him, so if you are so inclined not to accept the NT, we are wasting our time. Going off track for a moment and while I'm on the NT, Peter 3:1-7 seems to be at odds with you on the role of the husband and wife in marriage. Anyway we can save that for another time. We can agree on the notion of moral relativism, however, for different reasons. Regarding the British sovereign being, "the defend of the faith"; she was conspicuously silent during the sectarian violence that plagued NI for years. Pedophilia apparently, is well rooted in many cultures and must be viewed as an international problem deserving of remediation, yes, nail those priest to the cross, however, they are only the tip of the ice burg. I'm sure you don't need me to elaborate, if you do, I can. If you believe in the OT, Moses came down from the mountain with 10 commandments and some are still defining them to suit their own needs. In point of fact, Henry VIII needed a divorce and created a church to provide him with one and that same church in our time, has evolved into a vehicle for social change that has overturned fundamental rules of natural law that has us on the road to Sodom and Gomorrah.
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eiriamach | Jun 01, 2012, 04:55 PM EDT
89west, The Archbishop of Canterbury who said the words you quoted, "The Anglican communion, with 80m members, is well placed to be a major player," was George Carey, not Williams. Carey is conservative on questions of sexuality and accordingly pessimistic about the cohesiveness of the AC. The AB of C has some leadership roles in the AC, owing to history and tradition, and in fact the Queen is the titular-- female-- head of the Church of England, but issues of mission, morals, liturgy, priestly disciplines, etc., are decided by representatives of the world-wide provinces in conference. ABC Rowan Williams has tried to set a philosophical and theological direction. His ideas may prove more efficacious for unity after he leaves the Lambeth stage. The prophets, as Jesus pointed out when he foretold his own death, generally fail in their own generations and their native places, but others seize on their ideas and ultimately bring them to fulfillment. Thus the leaven works its way through the whole mass.
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eiriamach | Jun 01, 2012, 09:02 AM EDT
89west, you write, "The only question ... is whether or not the moral code needs to be changed or modified to conform to a secular society who has lost touch with the fundamental teaching of the RCC." Again I endure the charge of moral relativism, which I have refuted so many times on IC, often dealing with Catholics who shift the blame for clerical pedophilia to "the spirit of the 1960s," "secularism," or sexualization of the social environment-- patent relativism and hypocrisy! The natural law and its *moral principles* do not change across the centuries or from one culture to another. Unfortunately, however, RCC is bound to its past papal teachings on moral "code." Thus it resists the grace that flows into an institution that remedies past errors. Case in point: In Castii Connubii, Pius XI taught that "this false liberty and unnatural equality [of a woman] with the husband is to the detriment of the woman herself" as well as harming marriage, children, and society. *Against* Christian teaching, he preached that women develop their humanity only when completely obedient to men, but as Paul teaches, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galtns 3:28). The legacy of bigotry and exclusion wrought by such past errors weighs heavily and blinds its adherents to the moral principles of Christ and his disciples. It's never too late to live up to the Gospel if you can face the sins of your past.
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eiriamach | Jun 01, 2012, 08:28 AM EDT
89west, you are mistaken: "The case in point, homosexuality among the clergy and hierarchy and same sex marriages, etc. was and still is a fundamental tenet of the moral code as revealed by JC." I've scanned the New Testament looking for any word that Jesus of Nazareth spoke about homosexuality or same-sex marriage. It ain't there. Words that translate into English as "sexual immorality" virtually always refer to adultery. Yet I do not see the Catholic bishops working to criminalize adultery; I see them spending many million$ on making same-sex marriage illegal and discrimination against gays and women legal. Sex is not "dividing his Church." An unChristian obsession with other people's sex lives is dividing the bishops from the faithful. Pedophila? Anglicans have dealt with it: Episcopalian lay members are responsible for monitoring the welfare of all members. Vestry officers are legally and financially liable for offenses committed by priests; they watch for signs of pedophila. Your Church excludes laity from all aspects of governance and leaves bishops free to (mis)handle offenses by priests. How is that working out? As Bishops Murphy-O'Conner and Santer wrote in 1998, "The consciousness of human frailty in the exercise of authority ensures that Christian ministers remain open to criticism and renewal and above all to exercising authority according to the example and mind of Christ." The "example and mind of Christ" would find the process of debate and shared decision-making a surer path to unity than centralized autocracy. It was the process JC and disciples used in laying the foundation, and it's the process that will restore their original purpose.
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89west | May 31, 2012, 07:50 PM EDT
eriamach...Not too long ago, in a speech before the Genl. Assembly of the UN, the good Archbishop claimed, "The Anglican Communion, with 80m members is well placed to be a major player". From what I understand from you, the Archbishop had no standing to make such a statement. Well in reality, he was laughed off the pages in the British press. It clearly, indicates there is no one moral code or leader to direct the adherents in their quest for salvation. In my humble estimation protestantism is fragmented and often times it is found to be foundering amid current social trends and a social gospel that provides little direction for those who strive to know and live the teachings of Christ. The case in point, homosexuality among the clergy and hierarchy and same sex marriages, etc. was and still is a fundamental tenet of the moral code as revealed by JC. Yet Anglican churches choose to ignore these teachings and adapt to these current social trends and feel there is no consequences for their actions. The founder of the Church of England broke from Rome because of his desire for a divorce. Today sex is further dividing his Church and where will it stop??? Abortion, euthanasia, incest, pedophilia! The only question needing resolution is whether or not the moral code needs to be changed or modified to conform to a secular society who has lost touch with the fundamental teaching of the RCC. If one looks at the Protestant model, change and adaptation only splinters and confuses the doctrines and in short order most will find no relevancy in the institution of the church.
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EamonnDublin | May 31, 2012, 01:20 PM EDT
I forgot - and OF COURSE, the Gardaí knew (know) what was (is) happening! Éamonn, Dublin, Ireland.
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EamonnDublin | May 31, 2012, 01:13 PM EDT
"BulldogMania" - You are quite correct. Of course the Irish polticians knew what was happening, of course the media knew what was happening, of course Irish society in general knew what was happening, and none of them opened their mouths. Now, they rid themselves of any blame by piling it all onto the Catholic church. We have a "silence" agenda also at play in the Ireland of 2012. I have repeatedly written to the media asking why they NEVER discuss the possibility of forced child brides here, asking why nobody ever questions that when a young girl of, say, 13 years of age, goes "home" to Pakistan for the school holidays and does not return to school in Ireland, no questions are asked. It is simply ignored. I also ask why, when there are thousands of cases of "honour" beatings, and many cases of "honour" murders, in Britain every year, the Irish media also ignores the possibility of anything similar happening here - despite the fact that Britain is only next door to us. I have never, ever, received even one contact from the media asking if I could enlarge on this, and they have not discussed it. So, you see, Bulldog, we haven't changed at all, at all, at all! Whereas previously we were afraid to "insult" the Catholic church, nowadays we are similarly afraid to insult ("offend"?) Islam. And to those readers who criticise only the Catholic church, no, I am NOT changing the subject - it is the same subject and problem and I am simply pointing out that fact. In thirty years time from now, our children will be asking why WE did nothing to stop it. Éamonn, Dublin, Ireland.
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eiriamach | May 31, 2012, 12:26 PM EDT
89west, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who recently announced his retirement, does not have responsibility "to govern the international body." You insist on giving the Anglican Communion the structure of hierarchy and comparing the Archbishop of Canterbury (others cite the Queen!) to the pope of Roman Catholicism. Except as envisioned in some forward-looking ecumenical documents of Second Vatican Council, the two church structures are incompatible. Shared governance is a fretted and often agonizingly slow way of moving forward, but as Churchill said about democracy, it's the worst form of government-- except for all the others! Its virtue is that its movement IS forward, not backward, and it cannot obstinately refuse to move. So progress--the outcome of reform--is slow. Another advantage: rescinding decisions is possible if their consequences are not good. About your assessment that AC has "regressed into national entities," if it's true, then again talk of "schism" makes no sense. The "entities" cooperate on issues of mutual concern. I cannot make you see this church structure in other than ersatz-Catholic terms, so I won't try further, but your last sentence misrepresents my words. Reform must begin within the organization. As the Irish example, as well as many others, shows, outsiders can coerce, oppress, appropriate and persecute, but they cannot change people who do not wish to change. You can't "lend a hand" to someone who refuses help. Whatever the history, you've nothing to fear from Anglicans today.
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BulldogMania | May 31, 2012, 10:43 AM EDT
This seems like a good idea, provided it's not a bunch of liberals promoting their radical agenda. I live in America, and many of us here, Catholic and Protestant, believe the Irish are blaming the Church for sins well beyond those committed by the robed men of the altar. Yes, priests did horrible things...but it seems everyone in Ireland knew about it and no one did anything to stop it. Is all of this blame of the Church the national guilt of Ireland rising to the surface? As an Irish-American I'm deeply troubled by what happened and is happening in Ireland.
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89west | May 30, 2012, 08:52 PM EDT
eriamach....you may choose to deny their is a schism and even go so far as to say, "it cannot be applied to the Anglican Communion", however, the British press thinks otherwise and has expended barrels of ink on the topic. The Archbishop of Canterbury relinquished any right to govern the international body because as you say each entity is a democracy unto themselves. It is an illusion to speak of unity among Anglicans, at best they have regressed into national entities with little or no voice outside their own jurisdictions and often times from church to church. One of the founding tenets of the Church of England was a declaration that the bishop of Rome shall have no jurisdiction here and at the end of the Anglican Communion was the declaration -in effect- that the Bishop of Lagos won't have any jurisdiction either. Your gratuitous statement earlier on about lending a hand in reforming the RCC is a throw back in history to the Penal Law days in Ireland.
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southcountykelly | May 30, 2012, 07:38 PM EDT
My personal contention is that those presently considering themselves Catholics and wishing to remain so, no matter what geographic zone....take over the facilitation of the organization called the Catholic Church. With that said..there would be no Canon Law, No Pope, no Cardinals no confessionals and certainly non of the self proclaimed pontificating that has gone on for centuries.
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eccles64 | May 30, 2012, 07:29 PM EDT
The only thing to do to the EVIL ROTTEN ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH is to kick it out of Ireland, NOW!
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eiriamach | May 30, 2012, 06:50 PM EDT
Gearoid, as I've said before, splits and fissures, chaos and conflict-- that's what reform always looks like from the outside (and sometimes from the inside as well). Most Christian churches are experiencing precipitous declines: one-third of American Catholics have departed theirs. The Pew Forum has the stats on most sects. As for the current pope, he has written canon law to undo the expectations raised by Vatican II that the laity would participate more fully in the life of the church than they had done. The deep disappointment of the laity over Rome's refusal to allow more openness accounts for many of the departures. There's much more. But the pope's efforts to reintegrate SSPX are perhaps the most telling. SSPX rejects the Church Constitution Lumen Gentium on collegiality of bishops in favor of Pius XII's view of papal decision-making, and it rejects LG's approach to ecumenism (no. 8); SSPX rejects Dignitatis Humanae on freedom of religion, and, of course, everything that is in conflict with Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors. There's much else in such demands that threatens to return RC to a set of feudal relationships, but space does not allow. And what's the point? It seems like a scholastic exercise to repeat this info.
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