Pope Benedict visit to Ireland set for June 2012

Carroll09 . . To “settle the matter of precisely which books belong in the Old Testament canon”, I submit the following . . Continued***Ex. 2) Matthew 23:35: “. . . from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.”***and in Luke 11:51: “From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias”*** With these words Jesus confirms his witness to the extent of the Old Testament canon. Abel was the first martyr recorded in Scripture (Genesis 4:8) and Zechariah the last martyr to be named in the Hebrew Old Testament order. Zechariah was stoned while prophesying to the people “in the court of the house of the LORD.” (2 Chronicles 24:21). Genesis was the first book in the Hebrew canon and 2 Chronicles the last. Jesus is saying from “Genesis to II Chronicles,” or according to our order, Genesis to Malachi, thereby confirming the divine authority and inspiration of the entire Hebrew canon. He confirms the 3-part division of the Old Testament.***Ex, 3) John 10:31-36; Luke 24:44; Jesus disagreed with the oral tradition of the Pharisees (Mark 7, Matthew 15), not with their concept of the Hebrew canon. There is no evidence whatever of any dispute between Him and the Jews as to the canonical authority of any Old Testament book.

Carroll09 . . To “settle the matter of precisely which books belong in the Old Testament canon”, I submit the following: Since Christianity is based on the identity of Jesus (The Messiah), the Old Testament Jesus used is the Old Testament his church should use. The internal evidence of the New Testament reveals the Old Testament used by Jesus is identical to the books used in the Jewish Bible today, the Tanakh.**For Ex., 1) Jesus makes reference in Luke 24:44, to a three part division of scripture; this division is the current structure of the Jewish Bible. Psalms is the first and longest book of the third section of the Jewish Bible. "And he said unto them,These are the words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and in the Psalms, concerning Me."***The reference Christ has made corresponds to the divisions of the Jewish Bible . . the Tanakh, namely. . . 'The Torah'; Nebhim (Prophets) & The Psalms.

Carroll09 . . the word used 'INSPIRED’ from 2 Timothy 3:15-17 literally means ‘God-breathed’. Though men wrote the Old and New Testaments, it is God who worked through them to write exactly what he wanted. By their own testimony, the Scriptures are not merely the product of man, but are authored by God himself.***MORE INTERNAL PROOFS FROM THE BIBLE that the whole Bible is the INSPIRED WORD OF GOD*** New Testament Writers Claimed Their Message Was from God***1 Corinthians 14:37 - “The things that I write unto you are the commandments of Lord.”***Ephesians 3:3-5 - The things Paul wrote were made known to him by revelation. Formerly these things were not known but have now been “revealed by the Spirit to his holy apostles & prophets.”***1 Thessalonians 4:15 - We say by the word of the Lord.***1 Timothy 4:1 - “The Spirit speaketh expressly. .”***2 Thessalonians 3:12; Acts 16:32; Romans 1:16; 1 Thessalonians 1:5 ***Inspired Men Claimed that What Other Writers Wrote Was from God***Acts 1:16 - The Spirit spoke by the mouth of David.***Acts 28:25 - The Holy Spirit spoke by Isaiah ... prophet.***Hebrews 1:1,2 - God spoke in times past to the fathers by prophets. But now He has spoken to us by His Son.***BTW, even your church regards the New Testament books as INSPIRED!***THE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS SUBJECT TO THE WORD OF GOD, NOT VICE-VERSA!

Carroll09 . . with respect to your remark: “Christ did attest to the inspiration of the Old Testament. So the Old Testament is inspired, since we trust His word.” MORE INTERNAL PROOFS FROM THE BIBLE that the whole Bible is the INSPIRED WORD OF GOD***The fullest statement on the divine inspiration of Scripture is found in Paul’s second letter to Timothy (3:15-17): “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteouness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”***The Apostle Paul clearly states here that all Scripture is inspired by God. He is referring specifically to the Old Testament since the New Testament canon was not complete at the time he wrote, but the New Testament must also be covered by this statement for in 2 Peter 3:16 Peter refers to Paul’s writings (including this epistle to Timothy) as Scripture. The apostles were confident to make such claims for their own writings because Jesus had promised them that the Holy Spirit would guide them in all truth, thereby enabling them to write the New Testament Scriptures (John 16:13).

By 170 A.D. Most of the Bible had already been approved and read by the church and the term New Testament was in use. This was long before any council. The Roman church says they proclaimed which books were actually INSPIRED and placed them in one volume, so we should all be indebted to the Catholic Church for the New Testament. Actually the Catholic Church in 397 at the Council of Carthage had the 27 books considered the canon. However these books were read and distributed as Scripture for over 300 years by individual Christians and church’s long before their church councils claimed to give us the Bible. The canon of the New Testament was set from the first century. It is Catholic myth that Catholics gave the world the Bible! THE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS SUBJECT TO THE WORD OF GOD, NOT VICE-VERSA!

My comment regarding the "arrogant assertions of the Church Fathers proves nothing" was in response to your taking exception to my assertion that Scripture has many internal proofs that affirm its inspiration. Furthermore, my reference to Tertullian and Irenaeus was simply to confirm that these men both recognized God's Word as the final authority and the testing stone by which all doctrines were to be tried The canon was not yet completed in their day. Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220 AD) Irenaeus (c. 125 – 202 AD)****The answer to the question of how the apostles' writings come together to form the New Testament canon--the collection of books which are received as genuine and inspired Holy Scripture . . is simple. The Christians and the church simply acknowledged the apostles' authority and accepted their writings, and writings of those intimately associated with them (as Mark and Luke), as part of the Holy Scripture. The church did not put together a canon that made books authoritative because they were included in it. The church only acknowledged what was given by the apostles, and included books in the canon because of this apostolical authority. They never regarded these books as anything else than canonical.****THE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS SUBJECT TO THE WORD OF GOD, NOT VICE-VERSA!

JuneAnnette - you say that the arrogant assertions of the Church Fathers prove nothing, yet only a few days ago you were quoting the very same Fathers in an attempt to prove the erroneous doctrine of Sola Scriptura. So what exactly do you believe their arrogant assertions actually prove? Nothing or the actual position, beliefs and practices of the Early Church? Next, Christ did attest to the inspiration of the Old Testament. So the Old Testament is inspired, since we trust His word. It does not solve the question of the inspiration of the N.T., nor does it settle the matter of precisely which books belong in the Old Testament canon. With regard to Christ, the pharisees and the Church - Christ did not condemn all traditions, only those which nullified the commandments of God. In the case of Matthew 15, for example, He condemned the pharisees for dodging the commandment to honour one's father and mother. It is also clear that you are equating "traditions of men" with "Sacred Tradition" - "Sacred Tradition" is never contrary to the commandments of God and the Catholic Church can rest assured of this since Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would guide it to teach the truth always; "traditions of men" should not be automatically dismissed either - they may be contrary to the commandments, but not necessarily. In very fact, Protestant denominations themselves, though they may claim to reject them, also follow both Sacred Tradition and "traditions of men".

JuneAnnette,June 14th 2011. I just want to thank you for expanding on former priest Richard Bennett's thought's re Cornelius. I have never compared the scriptural Peter of that encounter with the St Peter of the Church. It certainly struck a cord with me, not that I'm contemplating an "abdication". I will surely find an occasion to refer to it, with credits to both yourself and the composer. Thank you.

Final thoughts***The parallels between the Scribes and the Pharisees and the claims made by the Roman Catholic “church” are indeed striking. These spiritual rulers thought themselves greater than and superior to the Son of God . . the Messiah . . the Word Incarnate . . who was in their very midst, whom they would neither receive nor hear. (John 1:11; John 8:43-47) The Roman Catholic “church” exhibits the same arrogant and presumptuous spirit as that of the Scribes and Pharisees . . the Jewish leaders in Christ's day, which earned them the unreserved censure of the Lord. Over the course of His earthly ministry, on several occasions, Christ sharply rebuked them, addressing them as hypocrites, for ascribing the same authority to their traditions with Scripture, and in so doing, making the “Word of God of none effect.” See Mark 7:6-9, 13; Matt. 15:3, 6***Christ quoted from, read from, and commended the O.T. Scriptures in his earthly ministry on many occasions: **** “It is written”Matt. 4:4, 7, 10; Matt. 11:10; Matt. 21:13; Matt. 26:24; Matt. 26:31; Mark 1:2; Mark 7:6; Mark 9:12-13; Mark 11:17; Mark 14:21; Mark 14:27; Luke 4:4; Luke 4:8; Luke 4:16-20; Luke 7:27; Luke 10:26; Luke 18:31; Luke 19:46; Luke 20:17; Luke 22:37; Luke 24:44, 46; John 6:45; John 8:17; John 10:34; John 15:2***”Search the Scriptures”: Matt. 21:42; Matt. 22:29; Matt. 26:54;-56; Mark 12:24; Mark 14:49; Luke 24:27; Luke 24:32; Luke 24-45; John 5:39

More internal proofs from Scripture itself***Jesus Christ Himself attested to the inspiration of the Old Testament Scriptures. Christ made many references to the Old Testament scriptures during his ministry. His statements attesting to the divine source of these writings can be grouped in three categories. First, Christ referred to the regulations of the Old Testament as the "commands of God;" and he referred to the writing of the Old Testament as if it were spoken directly by God. For example, in discussing the Old Testament command to honor one's father and mother, Christ said, ".... Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded saying, Honour thy father and mother:”. (Matthew 15:3,4). Second, he referred to the authors of the books of the Old Testament as "prophets," that is, spokesmen for God; and their writings as prophecies. Examples are Matthew 12:39 where Christ says, ". . . An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall be no sign given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.” And in Matthew 11:13, he says, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.” And third, Christ confirmed that the Old Testament prophecies were divinely inspired by his confidence that all prophecy contained in the Scriptures would be "fulfilled" in their entirety. So he says in Matthew 5:17,18: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, til all be fulfilled.” Christ's refers to the Old Testament scriptures which prophesied his own coming: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” (John 5:39,40)

Carroll09 wrote: "As to the saying that one must be subject to the Holy Roman Pontiff for salvation, that is nothing different to what the Church Fathers were saying on the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation, such as Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, Cyprian of Carthage and Origen, who wrote: "If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation...Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death".***So what you are saying, Carroll1109 is that if the Church Fathers of the Catholic church said it, it must be TRUE! To which I reply unreservedly . . their arrogant assertions prove nothing.

So what you are saying, JuneAnnette, is that Scripture itself says it's inspired by God, and therefore it is inspired by God. That makes no sense whatsoever - if I say that this post is inspired by the Holy Spirit (and it may well be), that proves absolutely nothing. A text referring to itself does not prove inspiration - in fact, if every book of the Bible began with the words "this book is inspired by the Holy Spirit", it would not mean that it's true: all it would show is that the author believed that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. As for Sola Scriptura: your quote from 2 Timothy likewise proves nothing. Paul says rightly that all Scripture is inspired and that it is profitable for teaching - "profitable" being being the operative word. It is one thing to say that all inspired writing "has its uses", but it is a huge leap to go from that - what Paul actually said - to saying that only inspired writing need be followed. As to the saying that one must be subject to the Holy Roman Pontiff for salvation, that is nothing different to what the Church Fathers were saying on the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation, such as Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, Cyprian of Carthage and Origen, who wrote: "If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation...Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death".

Carroll09 . . . with respect to your comment: “It is very interesting that you place so much credence on what the Early Church Fathers wrote - so do I”****My reference to Tertullian and Irenaeus was simply to confirm that these men both recognized God's Word as the final authority and the testing stone by which all doctrines were to be tried The canon was not yet completed in their day. Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220 AD) Irenaeus (c. 125 – 202 AD)****The answer to the question of how the apostles' writings come together to form the New Testament canon--the collection of books which are received as genuine and inspired Holy Scripture . . is simple. The Christians and the church simply acknowledged the apostles' authority and accepted their writings, and writings of those intimately associated with them (as Mark and Luke), as part of the Holy Scripture. The church did not put together a canon that made books authoritative because they were included in it. The church only acknowledged what was given by the apostles, and included books in the canon because of this apostolical authority. They never regarded these books as anything else than canonical.****THE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS SUBJECT TO THE WORD OF GOD, NOT VICE-VERSA!

Carroll09 . . in reply to your comment: “Needless to say, JuneAnnette, you have still not proffered an answer to my question on how you know the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Your claim that Sola Scripture is found in Scripture itself is simply false- nowhere in the Bible does it say that it is all we need for salvation; nor does it say that we need it to believe in Jesus Christ.” ********** MY ANSWER from . . .God's Word . . II Tim. 3:15-17: “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” *********** As to be expected, this is contrary to “the teaching of your church”, which states:***POPE BONIFACE VIII (pope: 1294-1303) ***³We declare, affirm, and define as a truth necessary for salvation that every human being is subject to the Roman Pontiff[i.e., the Pope of Rome].´( 1302) This type of statement is the height of ecclesiastical tyranny and once again shows a complete contempt for the Holy Bible, which nowhere tells us that a requirement for our salvation is to be "subject to the Roman Pontiff". The Lord Jesus Christ alone is the head of the 'body of Christ´and the Christian Church, and not some fallible human pretender to the throne!

...Or lastly, amongst many other examples, St Augustine: "The custom [of not rebaptizing converts]...may be supposed to have had its origin in apostolic tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings", and, "But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church". St Augustine was writing shortly after the Canon had been settled by the Church, and he clearly did not accept that all the necessary pieces of Tradition had been committed to the pages of Scripture. This last piece from St Augustine succintly demonstrates the ancient and current, consistent practice of the Catholic Church - Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition interpreted by the Magisterium of the Church, which is herself "the pillar and foundation of the truth".