Irish government denies rift with Vatican over Cloyne Report
Comments come as priests group prepares for historic AGM
Published Monday, October 3, 2011, 8:21 AM
Updated Monday, October 3, 2011, 9:36 AM
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Ireland’s Deputy Prime Minister has denied any long term rift with the Vatican over the Cloyne Report as Irish priests prepare to debate their future.
Labor Party leader Eamon Gilmore has played down fears of a breakdown in relations with the Holy See ahead of an historic meeting of priests in Dublin.
The current crisis in the Catholic priesthood will be the main topic on the agenda at the first AGM of the Association of Catholic Priests on Tuesday.
Members of the public and the media have been invited to the first annual meeting of the new body when those concerned about the future of the Irish church will be invited to speak.
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Minister Gilmore meanwhile has dismissed suggestions that Ireland’s relationship with the Vatican was damaged by the recent Cloyne Report and comments made by Prime Minister Enda Kenny.
“We asked the Vatican for a response to the Cloyne report and to our statement on Cloyne. The Vatican gave us their response and we issued a statement in response - I think it’s well known there has been what might be described as ‘an agreement to differ’ about it,” said Gilmore.
“Our relationship with the Vatican stands as it always has done. We have diplomatic relations with the Vatican and diplomatic relations with any state is on the basis that you are able to speak frankly about issues, which is what we did with the Vatican.
“As a Government, we spoke frankly to the Vatican about the way in which the Vatican had responded to Cloyne. We stated our position, we heard their response and right now, we are more concerned with putting robust child protection measures in place here.
“The Vatican knows our views, we know their views and our focus now is to put in place the best possible legislation to protect children in this country and we will expect everybody in the State including representatives of the church to support those efforts.”
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eiriamach | Oct 10, 2011, 11:39 AM EDT
JuneAnnette, if ever I think about returning to the bosom of an unreformed RCC in my lifetime, the memory of the hypocrisy and bigotries of the Catholics I've known, both public and private, would deter me. (That profound sense of alienation is something we might understand about the victims of the sexual abuses.) The psalms are my favorite scripture. Christians sometimes forget the sense of the ancient Hebrews that we are all in it together and that each has a role to play and that without the role that each contributes, Creation suffers. The psalmist had a clear sense of redemption in simply turning to God and bringing the entire community with him in spirit: "This is the generation of those whose hearts are turned to you, even to your face, O God of Jacob" (Ps 24:6). And he found a common theme in his lengthy illness and in his enemies' assaults: "One deep calls to another in the noise of your cataracts; all your rapids and floods have gone over me" (42:9). I think that the sinister tone of the threat you received is a recourse of desperate people who expect some magical power to carry out their threats for them. They know only "power" as a weapon against anyone who points out the crumbling "authority" in their lives, and they hope to conjure that authority back to life in words. Some of the comments on IC thus remind me of the black masses of the Middle Ages, a kind of invocation of "miracle, mystery, and authority," to use Dostoyevsky's phrase. When I think of it that way, I realize that the conjuring up is the clearest proof of their powerlessness. The psalmist mentions his "enemies" 104 times, and while he suffered occasional defeat, but no enemy ever overpowered him.
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JuneAnnette | Oct 09, 2011, 02:24 PM EDT
eiriamach . . continued . . In the depth of my soul, I experienced afresh the very real comfort of the Scriptures that God said would be the portion of those who trust in HIM. (SEE Rom. 15:4)***“Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort: Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.” (II Cor. 1:3-4)***I say “afresh” because in the trial of a protracted illness and frail health to which I have been subject for many years now, His Word continues to be an ongoing source of strength and comfort to me. Many a time He has visited me on my “bed of sickness” and “strengthened me on my bed of languishing.”(Ps. 41:3)***So you see eiriamach, though I prefer to leave this present world as a result of natural causes, rather than foul play, I KNOW as well that in these solemn matters, the LORD is sovereign. Like Paul along with all those who trust in the LORD implicitly . . I can confidently affirm . . “whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.” (Rom. 14:8b) I would commend the Scriptures to all who may be reading this, and a good place to start are the Psalms of David.***“Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.” (Ps. 63:4)
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JuneAnnette | Oct 09, 2011, 02:21 PM EDT
eiriamach, It has been 24 days since I received that threatening e-mail and I would like to share a few final thoughts with respect to this solemn matter. I confess upon opening the e-mail and reading the contents I was somewhat startled and shaken at the sinister tone of the message. Shortly after the initial shock had worn off and I had composed myself, the following words of the psalmist came very quickly into my mind “My times are in thy hand.” taken from 31st Psalm, verses 13-15:***“For I have heard the slander of many: fear was on every side: while they took counsel together against me, they devised to take away my life. But I trusted in thee, O LORD: I said, Thou art my God. My times are in thy hand: deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.” And again . . “What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee. In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust: I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.” (Ps. 56:3-4) ***Many other similar passages came into my mind and flooded my soul as the day progressed. As I meditated upon them, a great sense of calm and peace came into my soul, and soon my fears were quickly silenced and my anxieties allayed, much like when Christ rebuked the sea and the wind with those blessed words . . "Peace, be still." (Mark 4:39)
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eiriamach | Oct 08, 2011, 09:37 PM EDT
JuneAnnette, I'm sorry to hear that you received a threat. Don't throw it away, just in case it's connected with others. I know who the people are who've sent me the emails. Trad Catholic conservatives, a closed-in group that does not tolerate people as different as me. (I left the groups long ago, but the emails continued.) These people do not stop; there's a sick element in their blocking/censoring me in social networking groups while sending me dozens of emails. Some comments made by 2Bornot2B were similar to, and his tone the same as, the harassing emails: "all the rabid ex-Caths who join the crowd of haters and sensationalist headline seekers to stone the institution, should wisely STFU!" But mainly, it was 2Bor's tailing me (and you) on IC, and complaining that it was difficult to keep up, that aroused my suspicion, as when he wrote, "As you know, I do have a rather busy life, as opposed to you, who obviously receive some sort of IV solution while tethered to the IC blogs," as though we're supposed to make it easy for him to find our postings and snipe! ("Bishop McGee did Vatican bidding..."). That's the same MO the email harasser boasts of, about monitoring my Internet postings and claiming that 100's of people are laughing at them. I guess the pain caused by reports of the continuing sex abuse cover-ups has driven some Catholics over the edge. Their Church has lost its authority, so they revert to adolescent tyrannies to fill the gap where the all-powerful church once was. They need a Post-Traumatic-Shock-Syndrome support group.
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JuneAnnette | Oct 08, 2011, 12:10 PM EDT
eiramach, by way of a postscript . . today I re-visited the comments made in connection with the 9/4/2011 IC article entitled 'Disgraceful cover-up by Vatican continues on Irish child abuse---Irish prime minister has absolutely nothing to apologize for' and noted there was an exchange made between you and 2BorNot2B that followed my rather lengthly one with 'edmicca'. I was especially struck by your comment: “My email holds evidence of repeated attempts to silence me, not only from the psychopath male lead assailant, but also from helpers who think they're safe themselves as long as they abet his attacks-- with insults of the type 2Bor slings here and invitations to digital virus attacks and going on two years' worth of criminal-level harassment.” I thought you would want to know that I too received a threatening e-mail on 9/15/2011, no doubt intended to intimidate me into silence as well. A most disturbing development. Needless to say, I have reported it to the proper authorities. How the individual obtained my personal e-mail is yet a mystery to me? ?
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JuneAnnette | Oct 08, 2011, 11:43 AM EDT
eiriamach, Thank you so much for re-posting the comment below, and though it is one of great substance and relevance, it is not the one I had in mind. In the comment itself, you say, and I paraphrase . . "an institution that cannot be criticized . . " . . I will continue to attempt to locate it.
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eiriamach | Oct 07, 2011, 02:14 PM EDT
JuneAnnette, there was a lengthy back-and-forth discussion with Jacers, you, and me at "Pope planning radical changes to Irish Catholic Church." It continued, I think, from August 14 until Jacers added many long posts in mid- September, and I and supersurvivor added one each after that. I wrote about Vatican II, supporting what you wrote quoting Fr. Doyle, and Jacers wrote about women priests! Excerpt: It's a pity that you see an invitation to discussion or debate as an attack, Jacers. You have not addressed the issue; instead you've used ad hominem arguments against JuneAnnette. I conclude that you are content to be a subject of absolute papal power, are not a friend to democratic governance, remain hostile to non-Roman Christians, and prefer not to do your own thinking on any matter having to do with church governance, morality, or the life of the spirit. I hope you can come to grips with the coming upheaval, for it is indeed coming. Back in the 1920s, one of my favorite authors described the kind of degeneration and transformation in religion that we are witnessing in Ireland now: "There is a time of maturing, when the true element of the human spirit, suppressed and buried, comes to hidden readiness so urgent and so tense that it awaits only a touch from Him who touches in order to burst forth. The revelation that then makes its appearance seizes in the totality of its constitution the whole elemental stuff that is thus prepared, melts it down, and produces in it a form that is a new form of God in the world." It would be good to be ready for this process and at least not to get in the way of it and maybe even to help welcome it as it unfolds, however chaotic and rebellious it might seem at present.
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JuneAnnette | Oct 07, 2011, 12:07 PM EDT
eiriamach, I have examined your comments made in connection with the IC news items you cited below and unfortunately I was unsuccessful in locating it. I also did multiple searches in the site search engine and that proved unfruitful as well. In the comment I am specifically looking for, you address the one with whom I have been engaging (a consistent IC adversary of mine, i.e. jacersagain, 2BorNot2B, edmicca?) and diagnose him with a malady, which you . . in so many words refer to as institutional loyalty . . a condition which you indicate prevents him from subjecting the Roman Catholic institution (which is in view) to objective criticism. eiriamach, I will continue to look and should I encounter you at another forum, I will post it for the benefit of others, as I am certain the healthy critique of the Roman Catholic institution will most certainly persist!
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eiriamach | Oct 06, 2011, 03:54 PM EDT
JuneAnnette, there've been so many! I do not know which one you have in mind, so here's a short, incomplete list. If you recognize the topic, put the title in the search box near the IC logo at top of the page and you'll find it: There's some discussion of canon law and the institution at "War of Words Between Vatican and Irish Government Continues, Sept 6; some discussion of RCC as monarchy vs church institutions open to change at "Irish leader hits back at Pope in wake of criticism from Rome, Sept 4; there's some discussion of the (im)possibility of institutional change at "Irish victims critical of new Vatican guidelines on child abuse," May 17; some discussion of institutional religion vs ancient celtic spirituality at "Dublin archbishop says Irish Catholic Church is on the brink of collapse," Feb 24; I wrote about canon law at "Vatican: Taoiseach, Taniste criticisms 'unfounded,'" Sept 4. Some other discussions along these lines: "Pope planning radical changes..." Aug 14; "Irish govt stands by comments on Vatican interference in abuse," Sept 9, and "Dublin Archbishop says Vatican cabal protects clerical abusers..." Sept. 4. This has been a humbling search; I realize I should write less!
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eiriamach | Oct 06, 2011, 03:00 PM EDT
More, sirpeter: love, hatred, and indifference-- I've been there. I know all of them well (don't we all?). The absolute worst, the most deadening, vacuous, and soul-killing is indifference.
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eiriamach | Oct 06, 2011, 02:55 PM EDT
sirpeter, it's much simpler for me than for you, apparently. I'm never going to be a wealthy person. So I seek other ways to enrich my life, ways that do not require money. The life of the mind is one way, and I'm in the right profession for it. The life of the spirit is another, and it is a fascinating journey that opens up all kinds of meaning and relationships (and Irish history and culture) that I would be blind to without it. It's been many many years (since Vatican II) since the Catholic Church in the 'states paid any attention at all to the life of the spirit, as far as I can see. Plenty of attention to "pay, pray, and obey," as the Irish say, yes, but no help at all in understanding how to leave this world a little kinder and more humane than when we entered it. That's the work of the spirit, it's worth doing, and it gives meaning to life. People whose vocation it is to assist those who wish to live the life of the spirit seem more interested in power and security and sexual license and . . . well, you know what's been in the news the last decade or so. Part of sharing "meaning" is pointing out where the professional "life of the spirit" guys-- priests, for example, have failed and erred and disappointed and enraged people who had a right to depend upon them for help. I don't agree with you that arguing against RCC positions empowers the clergy, unless, of course, I'm the only one doing it. So I'd like to hear from others: is anyone else working on getting the "professionals" to pay attention to what they should pay attention to, rather than focusing on defending themselves from lawsuits and such?
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sirpeter | Oct 05, 2011, 10:45 PM EDT
@eiriamach.Do you know what the opposite of love is?Most people say hate.But it isn't.It's indifference.I don't talk much about religion because I am really indifferent about it.Let me educate ye a little bit.The only time the clergy has to worry is when people stop argueing about religion.It's called self-brainwashing and your inner desire to make sense of it all will break ye down until you uphold the belief in some fairy story anyway of some religion.Even your arguments are spreading and empowering the clergy.Those who are passionate about getting justice or whatever!! and argueing about the church are the very people who are supporting the churches by spreading the brainwashing.That's free education.I won't even charge ye for it.I'm bored already.
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JuneAnnette | Oct 05, 2011, 08:02 PM EDT
barneyjo, as a former Roman Catholic, I can very personally emphathize with you. I did not leave Roman Catholicism without much thoughtful and prayerful consideration. Richard Bennett, former RC priest speaks of his own struggle in this regard in his personal testimony: 'From Tradition to Truth', which you can read at his website . . Berean Beacon. The burden and sole objective of his ministry, Berean Beacon, is to lead men and women into a personal relationship with the Lord by directing them into the Scriptures of TRUTH. All of the articles written by Mr. Bennett are underpinned by biblical truth. His well-researched and insightful articles are truly a labour of love, which reflect his heartfelt desire to reach Roman Catholics particularly with the glorious gospel of free and sovereign grace of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ that they too might be saved. His studied examination of Roman Catholic doctrines / traditions, as they are set forth in official Roman Catholic documents in the light of SCRIPTURE is an invaluable resource for Catholics to thoughtfully and prayerfully consider. His firsthand knowledge of the inner workings of the RCC drawn from his 22 years as a Roman Catholic priest uniquely qualifies him for this challenging work. More importantly, Mr. Bennett's own conversion experience recounted in his article: 'From Tradition to Truth' uniquely qualifies him to communicate those things which he himself was taught by the Holy Spirit through his personal study of God's Word.
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barneyjo | Oct 05, 2011, 04:34 PM EDT
@JuneAnnette - While I am grateful for your posts, I can assure you that I am taking the trouble to inform myself about the litany of dishonesty, deceit and disaster inflicted by the Catholic Church on its own Church Body. I am well aware that awareness of this issue goes back over 1000 (one thousand) years when it was first documented by the Magesterium. You must understand, this is my church, the faith in which I was raised. I will not abandon it to the fate of those who are morally bankrupt and unsuited to lead it. And besides, scripture also tells me that I should not "dishonour my fathers house" I would surely be doing that if I were to leave my church. I cannot and I will not without doing what I can to fight for its soul. And while I am most grateful for your insights, dissertion for me is NOT an option.......not yet at least!!
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