43 Comments

• bignevermo | Jul 12, 2012, 12:49 PM EDT

  Michaelidaho...I was unemployed and on COBRA...they wanted over $1,000/month...I am diabetic and so i could not get open insurance...medicare/medicaid is unavailable to a person without a family...except when you are 65 and cant afford the "b" part they help you...many people such as myself have been 'falling thru the cracks" in the US... I worked for a comapny that offered no health insurance...even now in my current job i have ni INs..I get a small stipend for Ins....but no actual insurance but now I have PCIP...which to qualify i had to go without Ins. for 6 months before you can START the application process...total to get Ins...8 months...not good. The Affordable Care Act(Obamacare) will help thousands of people...just not the rich.

• seanomelb | Jul 10, 2012, 07:18 PM EDT

  "Might be bought off" this is not America we enjoy our freedom and we are a richer nation for that. BTW the Four most profitable banks in the world are Australian and listed on the stock market and did not suffer the ignominy of the U.S. banks during the GFC.Have a good day Briano

• TheYank | Jul 09, 2012, 10:58 AM EDT

  LarryDonnelly
  
  It seems ludicrous, but given we're liable for tax even if we file abroad I'd like to know if this will be an issue too.

• BrianO | Jul 09, 2012, 08:34 AM EDT

  Seano, I repeat it often and loudly to as many of my fellow citizens as I can, for once I forget what freedom is I might be bought off for $600 a week. I like the New Hampshire state motto "Live Free or die"

• LarryDonnelly | Jul 09, 2012, 08:15 AM EDT

  Hi Yank, sorry for the delay in coming back. I'm not sure if the law speaks to Americans living overseas.

• TheYank | Jul 09, 2012, 07:16 AM EDT

  seanomelb,
  
  The Declaration of Independence referred to "life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness." It was written by Jefferson in 1776. {The Constitution was adopted in 1787.}
  
  The phrase "liberté, égalité, fraternité" was coined during the 1790s. This phrase (credit unknown) and Jefferson's "life, liberty & pursuit of happiness" are aspirational, a reflection of the change the two peoples hoped to achieve through revolution.
  
  Jefferson and the other founders of America drew on the philosophers of the 18th century as did those who believed in the French Revolution. There are common roots to both revolutions, however I think those two phrases indicate that there were also differences in the aspirations of the two peoples. "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are much more individualistic aspirations than are "liberté, égalité, fraternité."

• TheYank | Jul 09, 2012, 07:10 AM EDT

  seanomelb,
  
  The phrase "all men are created equal" is from the Declaration, not the Constitution.
  
  I don't like putting words in my wife's mouth, but I suspect she'd find a taxpayer-funded national health system more understandable than this mandate.

• TheYank | Jul 09, 2012, 06:54 AM EDT

  bogsidebunny,
  
  Nope. My wife's obligations with regards to the household charge have been met.
  
  maireadinmelb,
  
  A "more perfect union" is the opposite of a utopian vision. It's the recognition that man is weak, prone to corruption. That's why they designed a system of limited govt - not because they thought it would be "perfect," but rather it would be more perfect than any other system. Modern usage would probably call it the "least worst option."

• seanomelb | Jul 09, 2012, 12:12 AM EDT

  The greatest modern nation in your opinion.maybe you would like to live here in our great democracy where the wage safety net is is $600 per wk or have our 5% unemployment rate or or health system and all you can crow about is guns how de classe of you.

• shop tom | Jul 08, 2012, 10:03 PM EDT

  seanomelb, it took America's founding fathers to put your "French cornerstone" into the US constitution, along with the right to free speech and the right to bear arms, among other, at the time, novel ideas that turned out to be the blueprint for the greatest modern nation. Obama, for his part, see the US constitution as an obstacle in his quest for ever-growing and controlling government, something the founding fathers took great pains to limit.

• seanomelb | Jul 07, 2012, 08:31 PM EDT

  Briano It was the French "Liberte Egalite Fraternite" which is the corner stone of the American constitution.It amuses me how some of you Americans think you invented freedom.I suppose if you repeat it often enough you believe it to be factual.

• BrianO | Jul 07, 2012, 04:42 PM EDT

  @Yank, The foriegners you argue with don't understand the importance Liberty and individual freedom that every American born citizen until recently is born with. The signers of the Declaration of Independence put every thing on the line for freedom and many were hanged, their wealth taken, and their families destroyed. Giving away any freedom for comfort is immoral to a free citizen of the U.S.A.

• BrianO | Jul 07, 2012, 04:36 PM EDT

  To justify voting for the constitutionality of the law Roberts said it is a TAX, if it is a mandate he could not have twisted the truth that far. So if you wish it to be Constitutional it is a tax, non constitutional a fee.

• jerrydonovan | Jul 07, 2012, 11:23 AM EDT

  Yank, the penalty/tax is ONLY paid by those who don't have insurance.This is to offset the cost to the taxpayers who like the other car owner in your example, would be stuck for the cost.

• seanomelb | Jul 06, 2012, 07:59 PM EDT

  TheYank!! The opening words of the U.S. constitution states "all men are created equal.In regards to healthcare the EU is not one nation therefore each country has it's own system.Australia has six states and commonwealth territories and all enjoy the same system. You seem to forget that Obamacare was passed by the house,The Senate (by 60 votes) and signed off by the president and now recognised by the supreme court and the good old GOP will not except the will of the people or the courts.One should remember the Obama took the universal healthcare issue to the people(2008) and won the election.The U.S. suffers a malaise and stagnation due to the intransigence of the party of no.

• hollabackgurl | Jul 06, 2012, 05:20 PM EDT

  It's a penalty, as Mitt Romney himself agreed before it was expedient not to agree. Did he contradict himself? Very well he contradicted himself, he is Mitt Romney, he contains multitudes of opinions for any circumstance.

• abbym7180 | Jul 06, 2012, 02:20 PM EDT

  Good point Ciaradexy ! There are a few good points to the healthcare law.1 you cannot be denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition, 2. it will free up the emergency rooms which are generally packed,because a lot of people just sit there all day to see a doctor for non -emergency problems like the flu,because the don't have a primary doctor,because you generally have to have insurance to be seen at a regular office ! Very few doctors will just take you off the street without insurance-mine will but he's 80 and patients are hard to come by at his age. 3.I've heard that quite a few hospitals that bill you after treatment also send another bill to uncle sam,double billing,this law cuts that off.And medicaid ? that's hard to get if you're income level isn't rock bottom.And for the good news :insurance companies can no longer elect not cover the pill for women.It's about time.They've been covering viagra for the old guys for years . Cheers ! liberty!

• ciaradexy | Jul 06, 2012, 11:16 AM EDT

  The Yank, I have a friend from Brooklyn who had a breakdown about 10 years ago. She was admitted to a hospital and had to declare bankruptcy soon after. At the age of 22! Thats not right!

• eiriamach | Jul 06, 2012, 10:18 AM EDT

  The Yank says "the word 'equality' does not appear in the US Constitution" LOL! What was he celebrating on July 4--voter suppression laws? Article XIV (1868) 1. .... No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the ***equal*** protection of the laws. Article XV (1870) 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article.... Article XIX [1920] The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex. Congress shall have power to enforce this article.... These articles establish EQUALITY--equal rights--under the law, whether you like it or not Yank!

• CitizenWhy | Jul 06, 2012, 09:59 AM EDT

  Please, every country with national health care imposes it on everyone in the form of a tax. Leaving people sick and dying is not a form of liberty. The individual mandate, like every tax, makes freeloaders pay their fair share. If people did not buy health care under the mandate they would end up using the health care system without having paid anything for it. People who already have a health insurance are not covered by the mandate. Think of the mandate as a freeloader tax. ... The firefighters do not have health insurance, but you dismiss this issue. ... The libertarian/laissez-faire capitalist system the wife seems to admire was the same system that brought the mass starvation to Ireland during the potato famine. ... And the religious right, who have moved tto that part of Colorado in droves, pushed their libertarian views so hard that they won the right to build housing developments in previously forbidden fire zones. That's why so many homes have been destroyed. Idiocy in the name of a false idea of liberty.

• bogsidebunny | Jul 06, 2012, 09:49 AM EDT

  I bet the "Irish Wife" refuses to pay her €100 house levy too. Funny how people elect politicians to gain favours but when the same politicians try to take a little moola from them they're branded thieves, blackards and gombeenmen...It's the 2hypocrite" gene in action.

• maireadinmelb | Jul 06, 2012, 05:39 AM EDT

  "We the people in order to form a more perfect union" seems like it wants to create a utopia! The constitution like here in australia sets out laws to govern the government in an attempt to stop leaders getting too much power and changing the laws to retain power. Promoting equality of all peoples is an important function of all governments, hence laws requiring equality and prohibiting discrimination. Australia has medical breakthroughs and a high standard of medical care one of teh worlds top childrens hospitals. Access to such amenities are based on your need not your wealth. THere are many americans who have been bankrupted by the costs of medical care.

• TheYank | Jul 06, 2012, 05:05 AM EDT

  maireadinmelb,
  
  The word "equality" does not appear in the Constitution. There is no constitutional imperative on the government to promote equality.
  
  The constitution was designed by people who believed it best to limit government. They did not see it as government's role to create a Utopia.
  
  It's because so many Americans can avail of the best that medicine has to offer that the system is so expensive. If it were truly available to "just the rich" the costs of the system would be as nothing.

• TheYank | Jul 06, 2012, 04:48 AM EDT

  seanomelb
  
  You might well be right. I know nothing about Australia's health care system.
  
  What I don't understand about America's desire for a federal system is that there are as many health care models as there are states in the EU. Why can't the US have 50 different models?

• maireadinmelb | Jul 05, 2012, 09:00 PM EDT

  Getting back to the article, how can american's claim to love liberty when they allowed the Patriot Act?? Obama's policy is not a shot at liberty it is trying to make sure that the constitution is upheld by promoting equality for all!! ie treatment for illness should be available to all not just the rich!!

• seanomelb | Jul 05, 2012, 08:33 PM EDT

  You would just love the Australian healthcare system.

• TheYank | Jul 05, 2012, 01:31 PM EDT

  The tax/penalty is a minimum of $695, but can be 2.5% of your income if you don't buy health insurance.

• TheYank | Jul 05, 2012, 12:33 PM EDT

  ciaradexy
  
  That's true in America too. There is Medicaid, which is something akin to the medical card here for those on low incomes, assistance, etc. There is also Medicare, which is for older people.
  
  The primary difference is that in America if you are considered able to pay you will be billed for the services you use. Here the taxpayer foots the bill for emergency services, long term care, public hospital care, etc so you don't have to have health insurance. You just might have to wait a while for treatment, something Americans visibly blanch at when you talk about such things.
  
  There may also be an upside to the American system that is less apparent. For example, you often see stories about people from here or Britain going to America for some specialist treatment. As far I've been able to tell, the opposite is not true.
  
  I also think the average American expects and receives greater comfort in the hospital than the average Irish or British person. Whether the actual medical care is better, I can't say.
  
  It's very difficult to compare systems in different countries. The American system seems very expensive, but whether it's more costly than the public systems that prevail over here I can't say.

• ciaradexy | Jul 05, 2012, 11:48 AM EDT

  As flawed as the Irish healthcare system may be, at least we all get treated regardless of how much we earn.

• TheYank | Jul 05, 2012, 10:19 AM EDT

  hollabackgurl,
  
  I thought the tax/penalty applied if you failed to buy health insurance, not if you seek medical attention. I thought that was the point of the IRS's involvement. If you have to pay an extra tax of $2000 or more that's as good as compulsion.
  
  I still don't see why you would call someone stupid if they they know the actuarial risk of their needing such medical attention is lower than the cost of the plans available would indicate. For a large chunk of the population that is the case. It's a gamble, but one in which the odds are actually in their favor.

• hollabackgurl | Jul 05, 2012, 09:45 AM EDT

  Americans will NOT be forced to buy Health Care, as this article incorrectly states. If you're stupid enough to not seek out your own coverage you will pay a mandatory penalty when you seek medical attention. That way you're not so much of a burden on the US tax payer. Ask Mitt Romney, he called a penalty not a tax when he introduced a similar bill in MASS.

• TheYank | Jul 05, 2012, 05:39 AM EDT

  LarryDonnelly,
  
  By the way, I've been trying to figure out do Americans who live outside the United States need to buy health insurance? I know it sounds ludicrous, but I can't find any provision in the law that says we don't. Having said that, the law is 2000 pages long & I've only read summaries of what's in it.

• shop tom | Jul 05, 2012, 05:25 AM EDT

  jerrydonovan, the difference is this: If you don't drive a car, you aren't forced to pay a penalty tax if you don't purchase car insurance. But you must buy health insurance, only because you are an American citizen.............

• TheYank | Jul 05, 2012, 12:44 AM EDT

  seanomelb,
  
  I'm not Ed.

• TheYank | Jul 05, 2012, 12:33 AM EDT

  LarryDonnelly,
  
  I doubt all of those firefighters are without health insurance. I would bet a more balanced report would have turned up a few who managed to pay and who might have a few suggestions on why some can afford health care & others can't. Maybe one part of the problem is that those firefighters come from all over America and that some come from states where health insurance is cheaper. Maybe a change to allow people to buy insurance across state lines might make it more affordable?
  
  Your point about education costs in America is no different than if it had been about property loans here. People are paying far more for education than it's worth. They should stop.
  
  In principle you're right about the helmet & seat belt laws, but one key difference is that the cost to the individual in wearing a seat belt or helmet is as nothing compared to the cost of health insurance. Health insurance costs do not reflect the genuine risk that someone might need to avail of health care. Some people pay extra so that others can pay less.
  
  People in Europe have been skeptical of America since 1776. Why should anything be different today?

• TheYank | Jul 05, 2012, 12:16 AM EDT

  jerrydonovan
  
  The car insurance you must buy is not to insure your car, but the cars of others on the road that you might run into. The health insurance mandate is not the same.

• shop tom | Jul 04, 2012, 08:44 PM EDT

  What has gone largely unnoticed is the fact that this monstrosity of a budget-busting, freedom-trampling bill was passed with a majority of Americans opposed it. This bill passed only because of political dirty tricks, bribery, arm-twisting, and downright lies by the Obama administration. It is no accident that unions are being given waivers so THEIR members are exempt from the "tax" (mandate). Hopefully, this arrogant failure that is called the Obama administration will be given it's leave this November and this un-American bill can be replaced with something that won't destroy 1/6 of the American economy, as well as the American right to not pay a penalty for not wanting what the government orders.

• seanomelb | Jul 04, 2012, 06:57 PM EDT

  Ed trying to justify why people have to die or go broke because they cannot afford healthcare.

• TheOldPerfessor | Jul 04, 2012, 03:24 PM EDT

  Donnelly: Right on! The only people "forced" to buy insurance are the ones who can afford it. Thanks to a system that protects corporate profits over people, we now pay twice as much for health care as countries where they simply make sure that everybody is taken care of. Trust me, big medicine is doing fine. They don't need any more charity.

• michaelidaho | Jul 04, 2012, 01:30 PM EDT

  I am not opposed to the provisions of this law requiring everybody to obtain health insurance and preventing health insurance companies from denying a person due to pre-existing conditions. However, I strongly disagree with Donnelly. There is already Medicaid and COBRA that would address this population group who are unemployed. A person in this age group with a job will simply opt out of their employer's health insurance plan and remain on his parents' health insurance plan. This will unfairly increase the costs of those who have no children in the 19-26 age bracket. Finally, it is a person's own responsibility to pay back their own student loans. Nobody forced them to take out their loans.

• jerrydonovan | Jul 04, 2012, 12:01 PM EDT

  If I go to get plates for my car I am asked if I have insurance. If i don't I WILL NOT GET THE PLATES.If I lie and have an accident I will be fined when I go to court plus the other persons insurance company will sue me to recover any money that they have to pay out.So what's the big deal with health insurance?Only freeloaders would not want to get insurance.

• Ajreaper | Jul 04, 2012, 10:58 AM EDT

  With choice comes consequences, sometimes those consequences are clear and known and in other instances there are unforeseen. Government cannot protect us from all of our "bad" choices and trying to do so is counter productive and generally a huge drain on available resources. You can no more legislate "good" choices then you can legislate morality, ethics or patriotism. If the government wishes to encourage citizens to buy health insurance then dangle a carrot- make contributions paid to health insurance tax deductible. When will politicians and government learn no matter what they do everyone will not own a home, attend college, have a job, or have insurance. We'll bankrupt ourselves eventually trying to "give" everyone everything they decide we all should have.

• LarryDonnelly | Jul 04, 2012, 09:18 AM EDT

  As another American living in Ireland, I have to say that I couldn't disagree with this piece more. It brings three points immediately to mind in response. First, it is a disgrace that these seasonal firefighters, who are willing to risk their lives to save others, don't have health insurance. Second, given that so many Americans under 26 are now saddled with extraordinary debt because of the outlandish cost of third-level education and then are forced to take internships or go on to graduate school (and incur even more debt) before they can obtain professional employment, it is great that they now will be covered by their parents' policies until they turn 26. And third, while Americans may now be forced to purchase health insurance that they can rely upon if they become ill, it's really not any greater threat to their liberty than having to wear a motorcycle helmet or seat belt. The view expressed in this piece, which is subscribed to by a significant percentage of Americans, is what has made so many people in Ireland, and around their world, so skeptical of the country I love so much. Happy 4th of July!