Israel gets no love from Ireland
Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 at 07:50 AM
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Fortunately for Norris, very few people in Ireland consider Israel a 'friendly nation.' In fact, Israel may well be the least loved nation among people here, and that includes the "auld enemy." It's a perspective I have trouble understanding.
Okay, sure, yes, I understand: the Irish love 'the underdog' and to many Irish people observing the Middle East the Palestinians are 'the underdog.' Israel is the nasty bully. Even if you buy that argument, and I don't, it's not the only conflict situation like it.
The Kurds? The Chechens? Barely a whisper here. Dagestan? Nagorno-Karabakh? What? Where? Who? Exactly.
Yet each of those situations is similar in terms of cultural conflict and distance from Ireland. What is it about Israel that Irish people find so repellent?
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Last week the Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore declared Ireland's support for the Palestinians' bid for statehood. That statement put Ireland out in front of the European Union, which was supposed to be forging a common EU policy on the matter. Being out in front of the European Union was not new for Ireland however, as Ireland first officially declared support for a Palestinian state 30 years ago ahead of all the other members of what was then the EEC.
Irish support for the Palestinians is matched by the Irish state's willingness to irk Israel and the people's lack of sympathy for the Israeli people. So complete is that lack of sympathy that other nations' backing for Israel is generally perceived to be the result of actions by sinister forces.
People here love to talk about the Israeli lobby's power in America. The Irish media refers to this often and to the "importance of the Jewish vote." I'm not naive, I know the score, but no matter how you slice it the Jewish population is still less than 2% of the total population of America. I'm sure most Irish people assume that figure is closer to 20%, given how often they hear about the strength and importance of "the Jewish vote."
Last month, during a debate on Palestinian statehood, a member of the Seanad (Senate - upper house of Ireland's parliament) said that Minister for Justice Alan Shatter, the only Jewish member of Ireland's parliament, exercised "undue influence" over government policy. He then went on to declare, "The massive Jewish vote in the United States of America influences government policy and Obama is now a tool of the Israeli State."
Almost in the next breath Leyden said he hoped "the 40 million Irish Americans" would not forget President Obama's speech at the United Nations. So in one breath Leyden denigrates Jewish-Americans for influencing American policy and practically in the next breath calls on Irish-Americans to do exactly that, while demonstrating an incredible ignorance of Irish-America, Jewish-America, and ... America.
In most western countries Leyden's remarks would have gotten him into a whole lot of hot water, but there was barely a peep here. He was mildly rebuked later in the same debate, but others essentially supported him, with one talking about "power politics and domestic elections" to explain the Obama administration's actions.
Four days after that debate Senator Leyden got his wish when Eamon Gilmore stood at the dais in the hall of the United Nations General Assembly and - again - announced that Ireland wanted to see a Palestinian state. The Irish Times couldn't find a single Irish politician to dissent from the government's position, including Alan Shatter. His "undue influence" finally overcome, the last glimmer of official sympathy for Israel extinguished.
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milestogo | Apr 27, 2012, 10:34 AM EDT
The lack of depth and childish strategy to shut down discussion by name calling is a reflection of US politics.Where all seem petrified of the Israeli lobby.This is the net.
We still have free speech and thought.
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milestogo | Apr 27, 2012, 10:28 AM EDT
A very silly thread with most posters ignoring historical facts in the hope that readers are stupid and do not understand their dissembling.
Many people have moved past the Nazi,racist insults,a real Zionist knows "what is what" as does anyone with a genuine interest in the subject.
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downinthebasement | Nov 23, 2011, 12:06 PM EST
I think shuvonn is not capitalizing Protestant.
shuvonn, what do you think of the influence of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops on our immigration and labor policies in the USA...?
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shuvonn | Oct 29, 2011, 04:33 PM EDT
Jews represent two percent of the American populationm, yet have nearly ten percent of positions in congress third only after protestants and Roman Catholics. 13 in the Senate out of 100 and 32 in the House of representatives. The list of powerful Committees they chair. A Sampling Of Committee Chairmen: 1. Armed Services - Carl Levin 2. Environment And Public Works - Barbara Boxer 3. Senate Foreign Relations Committee Members - Russ Feingold, Benjamin Cardin, Barbara Boxer 4. House Committee On Foreign Affairs - Howard Berman 5. Energy And Commerce - Henry Waxman 6. Banking And Finance - Barney Frank 7. Joint Committee On Taxation - Sander Levin 8. Senate Committee On Homeland Security - Joseph Lieberman 9. House Judiciary Committee - Jerrold Nadler 10. House Intelligence Committee Members - Jan Schakowsky, Adam Schiff. Not too bad for 2% of the population.....
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kinvara7 | Oct 09, 2011, 12:07 PM EDT
@readabook: I think de Valera was wrong to sign the book of condolences, however, it is also wrong to suggest that he did so because he was anti-semetic. As I stated the 1937 Constitution specifically recognised and gave protection to the "the Jewish Congregations" in Ireland (I believe it was the only written constitution in Europe which made express reference to the existence of Jewish congregations). My understanding is that de Valera specifcally wanted to assert Jewish civil rights in the Constitution; an important statement in the atmosphere of 1930s Europe. Professor Dermot Keogh cites an oral source that attributes the inclusion of the Jewish Congregations to consultations with Isaac Herzog, then Chief Rabbi of Ireland, and a personal friend of de Valera. As regards the signature itself, as I have already said it was primarily a personal gesture to Hempel and strict adherence to protocol. I believe the British Representative, Sir John Maffey, commented that de Valera's actions were "unwise but mathematically consistent" with Ireland's neutrality. Ireland was certainly pro-Ally and de Valera was certainly not anti-semetic; it is just plain wrong to suggest otherwise. To refer to him as an apologist for mass murder is equally wrong and I think you should examine de Valera's contribution to the League of Nations, in particular his stance regarding the actions of Japan and Italy during the 30s. Finally, it might interest you to note that there is a forest in Israel named after de Valera. Think about it, just two decades after signing the book, Ireland's Jews considered the incident an aberration in the prime minister's overall record. And they honored de Valera by planting a forest of 10,000 trees in Israel in his name.
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kinvara7 | Oct 09, 2011, 09:30 AM EDT
@George: I appreciate that being a fool and a liar takes up alot of your time. In your reply you say: 'I got better things to do.' Hmmm, shouldn't that be: 'I've got' or 'I have got' or simply 'I have better things to do'?
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readabook | Oct 07, 2011, 02:38 PM EDT
kinvara7 - You mention a "strict adherence to protocol" as to why de Valera extended condolences to rhe German Ambassador,Hempel. As joycean mentioned, the death camp genocides had been exposed 3 months prior to Germany's Surrender,so when German General Alfred Jodl upon signing an instrument of unconditional surrender he was dismissed by General Eisenhower with a "terse 2 sentence" warning that Jodi would be held responsible for non compliance and then did not return Jodi's salute as his gesture of "protocol". Devalera should have done no less. While he rightfully eulogized Roosevelt
“as a mark of respect and of sympathy with the American people” he could have minimimized his condolence gaffe by Eulogizing the millions of innocents slaughtered by the Nazi's and offering Condolences to their families but it never dawned on him as it never dawn on "ignorant" George Dillon who libels Israel and their "Apologists" while refusing to acknowledge Ireland's "Apologists" for Mass Murder. I would advise George to refrain from playing with matches and/or handling sharp objects.
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michaelidaho | Oct 07, 2011, 11:27 AM EDT
@GeorgeDillon
Now I am an apologist for mass murder. Please substantiate your claim with a quote from one of my posts.
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GeorgeDillon | Oct 07, 2011, 09:33 AM EDT
"@GeorgeDillon-- Is it possible to write a single post without directing insults at everyone else?" Yes it is, but when it comes to apologists for mass murder such as you I don't see why you should be treated gently.
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GeorgeDillon | Oct 07, 2011, 09:30 AM EDT
kinvara wrote "It is nice that you proofread my posts." Why don't you proofread your own dumb posts, I got better things to do.
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joycean | Oct 07, 2011, 09:17 AM EDT
On 27 Jan. 1945,the Russian Army discovered Auschwitzwhere they found 348,820 men's suits; 836,515 Women's dresses; pyramids of dentures and eyeglasses; 7 tons of women's hair. On 15 Apr 1945, Dwight Eisenhower toured a death camp at Gotha; on 29 Apr 1945 the American 101 Airborne discovered Dachau. Hitler committed suicide on 30 Apr 1945, AFTER these death camp discoveries were photographed disseminated worldwide. De Valera's condolences were offered AFTER the world saw the horrors the Nazis had committed. His actions and the singular nonchalance of the Irish people are revolting. BTW my earlier post should have stated: 25% of Irish polled would NOT allow Jewish citizenship.
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dreadnought | Oct 06, 2011, 11:07 PM EDT
seanomelbourne -- That's quite a risk you want Israel to take. Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza and what did they get? Rockets firing at women and children in Ashdod and Sderot, not to mention a Russian Kornet missile fired by Hamas a school bus killing a little boy. The Palestinians will get their state when they recognize Israel as the Jewish homeland and provide security guarantees. Until then, the Israelis would be crazy to unilaterally pull out of the West Bank.
Captain Con -- I think you're on to something. The Palestinians should quit fostering the historical lie that they are a distinct culture in any way distinguishable from the other Arabs of the Levant, and stop trying to deny the Jews a tiny portion of their patrimony in their ancient homeland. Once they do that, we'll have two states living side by side, in peace. Oh, the day you can complain about the misuse the Irish passports is the day that you worry as much about the death of Israeli innocents as you do about that of their enemies.
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seanomelbourne | Oct 06, 2011, 08:57 PM EDT
readabook you need to take a lesson from your name and read a book maybe a book not written by some Israeli terrorist.If Isdrael recognises apalestinian stae then maybe the rest of the world will legitimise Israel.
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CaptainCon | Oct 06, 2011, 03:50 PM EDT
The Irish people are well aware the trouble that can follow from a fraudulent attempt to carve out a state based ona historical lie on someone else's land. In that way they have a natural sympathy with the predicament of Palestinians. Nor do we appreciate our passports being stolen and used in international assassination missions. Thank you.
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