Israel gets no love from Ireland
Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 at 07:50 AM
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Fortunately for Norris, very few people in Ireland consider Israel a 'friendly nation.' In fact, Israel may well be the least loved nation among people here, and that includes the "auld enemy." It's a perspective I have trouble understanding.
Okay, sure, yes, I understand: the Irish love 'the underdog' and to many Irish people observing the Middle East the Palestinians are 'the underdog.' Israel is the nasty bully. Even if you buy that argument, and I don't, it's not the only conflict situation like it.
The Kurds? The Chechens? Barely a whisper here. Dagestan? Nagorno-Karabakh? What? Where? Who? Exactly.
Yet each of those situations is similar in terms of cultural conflict and distance from Ireland. What is it about Israel that Irish people find so repellent?
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Last week the Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore declared Ireland's support for the Palestinians' bid for statehood. That statement put Ireland out in front of the European Union, which was supposed to be forging a common EU policy on the matter. Being out in front of the European Union was not new for Ireland however, as Ireland first officially declared support for a Palestinian state 30 years ago ahead of all the other members of what was then the EEC.
Irish support for the Palestinians is matched by the Irish state's willingness to irk Israel and the people's lack of sympathy for the Israeli people. So complete is that lack of sympathy that other nations' backing for Israel is generally perceived to be the result of actions by sinister forces.
People here love to talk about the Israeli lobby's power in America. The Irish media refers to this often and to the "importance of the Jewish vote." I'm not naive, I know the score, but no matter how you slice it the Jewish population is still less than 2% of the total population of America. I'm sure most Irish people assume that figure is closer to 20%, given how often they hear about the strength and importance of "the Jewish vote."
Last month, during a debate on Palestinian statehood, a member of the Seanad (Senate - upper house of Ireland's parliament) said that Minister for Justice Alan Shatter, the only Jewish member of Ireland's parliament, exercised "undue influence" over government policy. He then went on to declare, "The massive Jewish vote in the United States of America influences government policy and Obama is now a tool of the Israeli State."
Almost in the next breath Leyden said he hoped "the 40 million Irish Americans" would not forget President Obama's speech at the United Nations. So in one breath Leyden denigrates Jewish-Americans for influencing American policy and practically in the next breath calls on Irish-Americans to do exactly that, while demonstrating an incredible ignorance of Irish-America, Jewish-America, and ... America.
In most western countries Leyden's remarks would have gotten him into a whole lot of hot water, but there was barely a peep here. He was mildly rebuked later in the same debate, but others essentially supported him, with one talking about "power politics and domestic elections" to explain the Obama administration's actions.
Four days after that debate Senator Leyden got his wish when Eamon Gilmore stood at the dais in the hall of the United Nations General Assembly and - again - announced that Ireland wanted to see a Palestinian state. The Irish Times couldn't find a single Irish politician to dissent from the government's position, including Alan Shatter. His "undue influence" finally overcome, the last glimmer of official sympathy for Israel extinguished.
57 comments
michaelidaho | Oct 06, 2011, 08:16 AM EDT
@GeorgeDillon--
Is it possible to write a single post without directing insults at everyone else?
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kinvara7 | Oct 06, 2011, 06:07 AM EDT
Readabook: You say that “de Valera was an Anti Semite if for no other reason because all during the war he had continued diplomatic recognition of the (German) ambassador of a genocidal nation.” If that was the case why did the 1937 Constitution (which de Valera was the chief architect of) explicitly recognise the right of the Jewish faith to exist in Ireland. I believe that de Valera stated in a speech to the League of Nations that “peace is dependent upon the will of the great States. All the small States can do, if the statesmen of the greater States fail in their duty, is resolutely to determine that they will not become the tools of any great power and that they will resist with whatever strength they may possess every attempt to force them into a war against their will.” Nevertheless, the British and American governments were fully aware that de Valera was not pro-Axis and that he had been of considerable covert assistance to the Allies during the course of the war and that he had never shown any admiration for Hitler or for the Nazis during the 1930s or during the war years. What of the Rathduff aerodrome? Indeed the Irish Marine Service took part in the Dunkirk evacuation [BBC’s Peoples War Homepage, A5920102]. Furthermore, Viscount Cranborne, the British Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, wrote a letter to the British War Cabinet regarding Irish-British collaboration during the war. It details how pro-Ally Ireland was. In short, his expression of condolence to Hempel was not an expression of regret at the death of Hitler, but a personal gesture to Hempel (the German ambassador) in the hour of defeat, and a strict adherence of protocol. Certainly, it was a serious political mistake however you are reading far too much into it. Compare it with his actions on the 13th of April, 1945 when he eulogised Roosevelt in a speech to the Dáil and adjourned it “as a mark of respect and of sympathy with the American people”.
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kinvara7 | Oct 06, 2011, 04:46 AM EDT
George: It is nice that you proofread my posts (notwithstanding the frequent mistakes in yours). I can criticise the substance of yours and point out your lies etc. I suppose you need to find something to criticise in mine and if it’s the odd typo so be it; whatever makes a liar and a fool like you happy. I note that you ran away from the discussion on Niall O’Dowd’s article posted on September 17th. I just think it’s a bit odd that someone who professes to despise liars would lie so much.
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GeorgeDillon | Oct 06, 2011, 03:03 AM EDT
readabook (but not a history book); ""Neutral Ireland" allowed Nazi boats to dock in their harbor during WWII". You are truly an ignoramus. I suspect you never "readabook" since you finished grade school. What you invent above never occurred. You're an out and out liar. A shameful fool.
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readabook | Oct 05, 2011, 10:01 PM EDT
Don't Worry seanomelbourne. You have nothing to nothing we "Jewish Lobbyists" need from you so "relax". So do tell what are the "facts". Having read your last 2 posts, I'm not sure you have any,right? P.S. Stringing assorted Slogans together like Paper Dolls doesn't count.
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MythsandFacts | Oct 05, 2011, 09:44 PM EDT
The official Palestinians coat of arms is a map showing Israel as part of the State of Palestine. Hardly a recipe for ending the conflict! As for the charges that Palestinians have "already given up 82% of historic Palestine," this is a simple lie: the British Palestine mandate included present day Jordan; the British simply decided that the Hashemite clan of Saudi Arabia needed a territory and cut it of from the Palestine Mandate, giving the Arabs more than 80% of the territory, even before 1948, Of course, it has never been about the size of the Jewish state but the obsession that Jews are not to be allowed self-determination, unlike the 24 Arab and 61 Muslim nations.
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seanomelbourne | Oct 05, 2011, 06:13 PM EDT
The lies promulgated by the Jewish lobby on this site are bordering on the ludicrous. facts are not part of their make-up.They are a bunch of liars and thieves.
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readabook | Oct 05, 2011, 04:53 PM EDT
George Dillon Gee Thanks! We're all relieved to know that you can at least express your ignorance with the "Queens (Oops,Sorry!)English".With your command of the language,I'm sure you must know that if you had changed Lenny (Kaitcer)to "Leonard" you would have found it quickly even w/the mispelled last name. De Valera was an Anti Semite if for no other reason because all during the war he had continued Diplomatic Recognition of The (German) Ambassador of a Genocidal nation.Ah!,your reference
to the Jewish Presence in Ireland,
"Five Jews came from over sea with gifts to Toirdelbach, king of Munster"....Now finish the passage..."and they were sent back again over sea"
To further quote you "in the modern age, there was a very significant Jewish immigration in the second half of the nineteenth century" Oh Yeah?!1871, the Jewish population of Ireland was 258; by 1881 458,by 1904 to 4800 to around 5,500 in the late 1940s while today it numbers around 2000. I guess "significant" is in the (jaundiced) eye of the beholder. Sounds like a real Jewish Paradise. As a Google "expert" I'm sure you know that you can just as easily locate the whole truth as opposed to the "Half Truth" but that's really of no interest to you,is it ? Before you denigate other thoughtful input in this column by referring to them as "ignorant" or "slobs" get off your own fat ass and take a good long look in the mirror" Pathetic,huh? Yank I admire what you're trying to accomplish here but your wasting your time (we all are) by attempting engage in thoughtful dialogue with Dillon and his ilk.
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GeorgeDillon | Oct 05, 2011, 02:37 PM EDT
kinvara7: "Your interpretation of De Valera’s actions are wrong." NO, kinvara, and I think I've corrected this before in your case. Interpretation is singular, therefore it takes a SINGULAR verb. The correct English is "Your interpretation of De Valera’s actions IS wrong."
Let's get it right next time.
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kinvara7 | Oct 05, 2011, 01:10 PM EDT
@The Yank: I think you could have put a bit more work into this article. It is not like Ireland is the only country in the world that supports Palestinian Statehood. Is it not possible to express that without it being seen as anti Israel. As regards why this conflict is more widely talked about in Ireland, well did you consider issues such as the Irish peacekeeping force in that region etc; forged passports or Irish aid ships?
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kinvara7 | Oct 05, 2011, 12:56 PM EDT
Joycean: Your interpretation of De Valera’s actions are wrong. Remember, the 1937 Constitution gave recognition to the Jewish community in Ireland. DeValera’s condolence to Hempel was not an expression of regret at the death of Hitler, but a personal gesture of appreciation to Hempel (the German ambassador) in the hour of defeat. Certainly, it was a serious political mistake because it reinforced the misconception that de Valera had been sympathetic to the Nazis. RedBird1: Your statement that Ireland favoured the Nazis is completely wrong, the opposite is clearly the case. Ireland provided the ‘Donegal corridor’ to the Allies allowing flights over neutral Ireland crucial for transatlantic flights which secured vital communications between England and the United States throughout the war. Irish Military Intelligence (G2) provided the British with information on German activities in Ireland. While German pilots who crash-landed in Ireland were interned, British, US and Canadian pilots who crashed were usually allowed to cross the border into Northern Ireland.
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RedBranch | Oct 05, 2011, 12:18 PM EDT
@George: The name was Kaitcer, Leonard Kaitcer, apologies for the typo. @ everyone else, Furthermore could one imagine the response of David Norris writing the head of the Palestinian State pleading leniency for his male lover in a case of underage homosexual activity?
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readabook | Oct 05, 2011, 12:07 PM EDT
TiocfaidhArmani- Jordan,never "annexed" the West Bank nor did Egypt "annex" Gaza.Under the 1949 Armistice Agreements under the auspices of the UN, Jordan and Egypt were to "administer" the "unallocated" territories,pending a final peace treaty which held until 1967 when Israel was attacked on all sides by it's Arab "neighbors". In the meantime the Arab countries to which the Arab inhabitants fled (many advised by their Arab Patrons with the promise of a "speedy" return) used them as stooges in squalid refugee camps,while denying them citizenship basic rights,etc,while in the meantime "ethnically cleansing" themselves of equal no's of their Jewish citizens who immediately accepted them as citizens with full rights. Let's also not forget the present Jordanian King Adullah,the namesake of his Great Grandfather who was murdered by an Arab Terrorist in 1951 on the steps of the Al Asq Mosque because he was to meet there with Israeli's to discuss a Peace Treaty.Your selective "bits and bytes" rendition of history reiterates the importance of getting your facts straight so that they don't confuse you.
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michaelidaho | Oct 05, 2011, 09:17 AM EDT
@GeorgeDillon,
If you had taken the time to read the original post written by “imyokyrok” and my response, maybe you would have understood what I was getting at. Instead, you display your own ignorance and vulgarity with insults and sarcasm.
To set the record straight, my point is that many Europeans love to criticize the hypocrisy of American foreign policy – fair enough. However, they reveal their own pomposity and hypocrisy with their incessant finger pointing at America and Israel but are almost silent when it comes to human rights violations in Iran, North Korea, etc.
As for organizing protests against North Korea and Iran, you were right in implying that I never have done that. However, neither do I participate in candle light vigils in the middle of Dublin with a placard protesting the death penalty sentence of an African-American convicted of murder. At least, I am consistent. Many Irish human rights advocates are not.
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