Irish heritage sites have to make Irish people feel welcome
By: The Yank | Published Tuesday, December 18, 2012, 2:47 AM | Updated Tuesday, December 18, 2012, 2:47 AM
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The Rock of Cashel, County Tipperary. Ancient cathedral/castle
built on a site where, tradition has it, St Patrick converted the
King of Munster in the 5th century. |
A recent survey on Irish heritage sites indicated that a quarter of Irish people visit heritage sites "frequently," which surprises me to be honest. In fact, I don't believe that at all.
The same survey indicated that the prehistoric
passage tomb at Newgrange in County Meath is the country's most important heritage site. That doesn't surprise me because if there's one thing that makes Newgrange different from many of the country's other sites is that Irish people go there in large numbers. In my experience that isn't the case with some of Ireland's other historic jewels.
A few weeks back I went to the
Rock of Cashel in County Tipperary. It was my first time there in many years and I still can't get over how much I learned and enjoyed myself there.
The Rock of Cashel is simply fantastic. I know there seem to be a lot of places like this in Ireland and if you're on a limited vacation schedule you might not fit them all in, but if you can get to Cashel, do it.
My family and I had a great time, thanks in large part to the tour guide who did a very good job explaining the history and architecture of "The Rock."
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Read More:Surprise as Newgrange wins the title of Ireland’s favorite heritage spotVisiting Irish castles is popular for good reasonHistoric sites in Ireland _____________
The only negative - and it's not a big one, more of a nagging annoyance - was that the Irish-born in my traveling party (all but me) felt during the tour that the Rock of Cashel was for tourists and not Irish people.
It was subtle and more down to the tone than the actual words spoken, especially at the start of our visit, but there was a sense that we were in a tourist trap more than a place of real significance. The Rock of Cashel is not
Bunratty Folk Park (although that has its pluses too, but it is primarily for tourists).
It's a little difficult to phrase because I'm not really being critical or at least I don't have an easy answer to the problem, which is that the tour was clearly designed for a non-Irish audience. Our tour guide at Cashel did a very good job of explaining the history of the Rock, the importance of the various parts of the structure, etc. but his entire talk made it obvious that Irish people were not his audience.
Again, I'm not criticizing him because he was good and I assume he was working mostly from a script that those who run the Rock of Cashel provide for their tour guides. And he wasn't wrong. Of the 25 or so on the tour there were only four or five Irish people and three of those were my family. Most of the group probably was pretty unfamiliar with Ireland and its history.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about: our guide explained that Cashel was the seat of the King of Munster, "which is the most southern of Ireland's four provinces." Every Irish person knows that. I daresay that a large percentage of Irish-Americans know that. If I had heard that when I was a young, visiting Irish-American tourist I'd have been a little annoyed to be thought so ignorant of the basics of Irish geography.
My 17-yr-old daughter was incensed. She wanted to leave the tour right then. Yet if the guide had inserted "for those of you not from Ireland" it would have had a completely different impact. It would have been perfectly acceptable. There were a lot of similar phrases where it was obvious the tour guide expected his audience to know next-to-nothing (at most) about Ireland.
I have experienced this sort of thing before. Yet I don't blame the tour guides for it happening. They know their audience and it rarely includes Irish people. That's the shame of it. Irish people don't go to a lot of their own heritage sites so those in charge of the sites run them as tourist destinations. Or maybe Irish people don't go to the heritage sites because they know that they'll be treated as tourists and they don't like that. I don't know which it is, but it's a shame regardless.
As a comparison, try to imagine the Statue of Liberty or Independence Hall or the Washington Monument being explained to those visiting as if they don't know the basics of American history or geography. It just would never happen. Wouldn't happen at the Tower of London or Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris either.
Now if this was a one-off I wouldn't mention it, but it happens regularly. As I said, it's only a minor quibble, but I do think that fixing this would make the sites more attractive to Irish visitors. Make them feel less like only 'foreigners go there.' I also think tourists prefer to visit places that the local native population values highly and visits regularly. Tourists like authenticity and the native population's presence is proof of authenticity.
Ideally Irish people will visit their nation's fantastic heritage sites more often and force a change, but short of that the people who are in charge of the Rock of Cashel and other important sites need to explain Ireland's history and geography in a way that doesn't insult those Irish people who do go. That "
céad míle fáilte" they all start with should be directed at Irish people too.
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.casualMBA | Aug 24, 2012, 12:16 PM EDT
Off the podium of Askeaton, Yank, "Desmond" Castle, in Cork, is another story. Much like the "Desmond Wars" (when they are referred to) or "The Nine Years" War, the leading proponents ( the unpardoned Fitzgeralds, the O'Neills - and, yes, friends, there were other significant surnames ;) are shuffled off(like significant historical sites)to the side. Askeaton, built circa 1198 by the Burkes (de Burghs) as marcher lords to the Fitzgeralds (some attributed it to the retired justiciar,) became a principal castle of the Fitzgeralds in the early 1200s, making it a recorded "historical site of 800 years. On this we place a "Hell's Fires" Club, for modern tourists?...
casualMBA | Aug 24, 2012, 10:59 AM EDT
Yank, Admirable Preamble to dragonladyleanne's (valid)tour comment, placing things, so to speak, in perspective...ref. Askeaton, I highly recommend you visit it, before it topples from some combination of neglect or is razed for tour buses heading to a Hell's Fires hype. Sure, the Hell's Fires Club is part of the site's history, but so is Ground Zero to the World Trade Center. That does not mean I want a mosque built there, even if it brings three million tourists from the Middle East...whatever the purpose of the new building (at Askeaton,) be it a casino, or the next site of a Papal Mass in Ireland, it is deriving its link to the past, and shadowing the site's authentic medieval history, from a young gentlemen's club dedicated to - beyond excessive drinking - sustaining a social order dedicated to exploiting, ad infinatum (despite steam locomotives,) the poor of Ireland, as well as their political "freedoms."
TheYank | Aug 24, 2012, 08:32 AM EDT
dragonladyleanne,
I don't think the tour guide has to lead every sentence with "for those of your not from Ireland ..." Even once would have shown he knew (assumed/hoped) that there were Irish people on the tour.
Or if he had started the tour with "I know for those of you who know your Irish history & geography some of what I'm going to say will sound very basic, but there are undoubtedly some here who are new to Ireland and our history and I don't want to exclude them. I hope you can bear with me."
Problem solved.
TheYank | Aug 24, 2012, 08:26 AM EDT
jamieLM,
I've experienced some really bad tour guides in America, but never any that tried to explain that Georgia is in the south (or whatever). Are there any national heritage sites that get anywhere near a majority of their visitors from "overseas?"
And I understand what you're saying to ciaradexy, but she has a point. Other than the Mesa Verde and one or two other places there are virtually no places in America over 400 years old? Ireland is chock full of them, but that doesn't justify complacency about the most significant of them like the Rock of Cashel.
TheYank | Aug 24, 2012, 08:21 AM EDT
ciaradexy,
Glasnevin is another place where Irish people do go. Of course it's still a functioning cemetery so that means Irish people are going there regularly and are probably enticed to do the historical bit when they see what a great place it is.
TheYank | Aug 24, 2012, 08:18 AM EDT
bogsidebunny,
I saw no litter at the Rock at all. I doubt it's impossible to gain entry after hours if local drinkers should choose to, but it's well kept these days.
TheYank | Aug 24, 2012, 08:16 AM EDT
casualMBA,
I've never been to Askeaton, but from what you say I'd best get down there soon before they wreck the place.
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying? Are they recreating the Hell Fire club? That is also a part of the history of the Desmond Castle, no?
As for your other question about the sponsored tour I have no idea.
TheYank | Aug 24, 2012, 08:06 AM EDT
TayandCake,
You can avoid the tour, but not the entrance fee. It's not like Glendalough.
My wife & I paid in because we thought the children should visit the Rock of Cashel. We could have opted out of the tour, but joined it because there was no easy way to learn about the buildings otherwise. As I said, I learned a lot on the tour; thought it was worthwhile.
I think we paid about €14 for the family. Whether that's a lot or not depends on how you feel, but we've paid more for a lot less (the new Titanic Experience in Belfast is one that springs to mind).
dragonladyleanne | Aug 23, 2012, 11:01 AM EDT
Hi, I'm an American tourist! I've only had the opportunity to travel to Ireland twice, but I was only treated "as a tourist" once, and THAT a funny (to me) attempt to panhandle money from me as I trudged from King John's castle to catch the bus back to my hotel in Balleycasey . . . by a woman in a CAR! LOL I've lived in NW Florida 50 years, and the economy is tourism based (except for military or medical), so I have heard a guide spiel or 2, plus I know the history of this place quite well. I *ALSO* know that every site that has tours has "unguided" options, unless it's in such shape as to be dangerous. Tour guides MUST assume their audience knows little about the history, or they'll leave something out, and not be doing their job, if they're paid. If they're volunteers, they welcome questions (mine at Bunratty did, though I do tend to ask "scholarly" questions, not "has anyone famous ever slept here" types), but they'd still assume you didn't know a LOT or you'd be on your own. Personally, Yank, I'd have been insulted if every other sentence out of a guide's mouth started with "for those of you not from Ireland", it's inane at best, condescending at worst. And at some point, I'm sure my sarcastic imp would out, and I'd be making side remarks about "for those of you FROM Ireland, can you make this person shut up"?
jamieLM | Aug 23, 2012, 10:05 AM EDT
@ciradexy, You obviously don't have a clue about how many sites there are to see in the U.S. or anything about them. Please refrain from commenting on things in the U.S. you know absolutely nothing about. It just shows your ignorance and, as usual, your anti-American sentiments which are so tiresome. FYI, every state has sites worth touring - that would be 50 states. You just never miss an opportunity to make a rude remark about Americans/America. It really says a lot about you and it's not very flattering.
casualMBA | Aug 23, 2012, 07:40 AM EDT
Yank, is there any truth to the rumor Kerry is sponsoring a tour to eighteen (18) likely sites of FitzGeralds' keeps (in Kerry)?
ciaradexy | Aug 22, 2012, 06:47 PM EDT
Yank, we Irish visit these places on our school tours usually before the age of 17 so most people dont really foster a love of such sites till they are much older however from my experience, I tend to take days off work to do the tourist thing at home and if I see a group of foreign tourists, I wont take the tour because i want to have some banter with the tourguide. Last time I did a tour which was in Glasnevin cemetary, the guide had to ask an American lady to shut up a few times. She was doing the excited tourist thing a bit too much and thought she knew everything so kept trying to contradict the tourguide who by the way, is a famous historian and really knows his stuff. As we have so many of these sites, we can take them for granted unlike the US where they are so few and far between. I lead tours in Dublin every few weekends for English language students and when Im not doing that, Im travelling around Connemara myself or leading tours around after buying a house in Spiddeal so Im very well aware of my countries sites of interest.
billie061 | Aug 22, 2012, 05:54 PM EDT
Seems you pick the wrong tour guides ???? I am one, ask any Irish child where they go on their annual tour from school, Hill of Tara, Rock of Cashel, Glendalough etc, Ask any tourist who goes on a tour whether here or elsewhere its rip off anyway, Thats why I'm not a tour guide anymore.
TayandCake | Aug 22, 2012, 10:47 AM EDT
I suppose this goes for every country though, maybe tours in USA are directed at foreign tourists while the locals know the score and don't bother
TayandCake | Aug 22, 2012, 10:45 AM EDT
Could you go here when there is so tours, like wander at your ease or have they put up a big money making gate. I like Glenalough, don't care much for the tours though.
bogsidebunny | Aug 22, 2012, 08:41 AM EDT
Funny you mentioned the Rock of Cashel. My first visit was 44 long years ago in September 1968. It was fine fresh autumn day and after parking the hire car I climbed past the century old cross in the yard and through a stone portal. Only to be greeted by empty beer cans bottle and numerous piles of human excretement.......Some things never change!
casualMBA | Aug 21, 2012, 03:44 PM EDT
Why is a "Hell's Fires" Club being built on the ancient seat of the FitzGerald Earls of Desmond? Where is the Respect for "Integrity and Authenticity" - in compiance with the Nara (not NAMA)Declaration of Authenticity (1994) - in such a plan? Excellent question! Shall we make noise about the construction there? To quote UNESCO’s Guidelines for the protection of World Heritage sites, “… The cultural and natural heritage is among the priceless and irreplaceable assets, not only of each nation, but of humanity as a whole. The loss, through deterioration or disappearance, of any of these most prized assets CONSTITUTES AN IMPOVERISHMENT OF THE HERITAGE of all the peoples of the world…” (emphasis added) Many Fitzgeralds are upset with the historic DESECRATION of the Earls’ Medieval Fortress at Askeaton, Limerick, in favor of re-creating an Anglo-Ascendancy Gentlemen’s Club, which was a willful desecration in the first place! Tourism rationalizations are memorializing the wanton strains of Anglo-Ascendancy sons. Why not an Amusement Park at Valley Forge? Much more can be said of other Fitzgerald heritage sites throughout southwest Ireland, altered in “integrity and authenticity,” but the site development at Askeaton is a particularly FLAGRANT VIOLATION of the spirit of “special protection” these sites deserve. The FFE website (where this Q & A was first published) will monitor, through its future interactive features, Askeaton, and other sites.
casualMBA | Aug 21, 2012, 03:16 PM EDT
Hey Yank, thanks for raising the topic! On the matter of educating ourselves (as a people or as foreign tourists to Ireland,) regarding our national heritage sites, I have a personal learning experience to relate. Tony Sheehy, an excellent local guide to the Askeaton, Limerick, sites of the Earls of Desmond, brought a negative factor - a decidedly big one - to my, and other tourists, attention in the course of his tour. Not all, however, are sensitive to the significant ramifications of this negative factor, causing me to ask, and answer, the subsequent question. I hope those interested in sites of Irish National Heritage will give it some consideration, and corrective action!
jamieLM | Aug 21, 2012, 11:19 AM EDT
@The Yank: I've been to plenty of Am. sites where the guides speak as if all the tourists are non-Americans. Although I'm often thinking - what Am. doesn't know that? -, I'm also sure there are plenty of Americans who could use an update on Am. history and geography. I accept the rerun of the obvious and listen for new facts about the sites I'm visiting. I realize the tourist guides have to speak to 2 different audiences at once. Your suggestion that they use the phrase, "for those of you not from _..." is a good one but can hardly preface every sentence. Still, the questionable content of a tourist guide's script shouldn't keep anyone from visiting worthy sites at home or abroad.