54 Comments

• joeburke | Jan 27, 2012, 01:36 AM EST

  Ireland is not the U.S. Ireland is a sovereign nation. This article was written by "the yank" who fails to identify himself (a cowardly act) and who displays very little knowledge of Irish current events. He is an obvious Republican who has imagined the Irish government to be closely aligned with the American democratic party. It is blatantly obvious that he has never been to Ireland or has gone there with obscure views and lack of knowledge. Why not leave Irish current events to an editor who possess the relevant criterion to tackle them. Preferably someone who actually lives in Ireland. In America Socialism equals communism ...these are very bad words. In Ireland we successfully integrate social economic reforms because Ireland is not governed by a 1% elite group of masons who would have you believe that spreading the wealth a little was a bad thing to do. The standard of living in Ireland for the average person is far superior than it is in the U.S. Don't believe me? Google average pay...benefits...salary etc. Its not your granddaddy's Ireland. Its a forward thinking nation who have taken control back from former abusive controlling clergymen, who dominated the nation by controlling peoples most intimate thoughts and actions while abusing their power. We have excellent intellectual governing figerheads in Ireland who are not elected because of the size of their pocket books. Yank is a derogatory term describing a loud mouth who doesn't really know what he's talking about. Sir you have earned your title.

• KidShelleen | Dec 25, 2011, 07:30 PM EST

  Green Go – Yank Go home At the risk of upsetting heretics beneath me who understand perfectly what you are saying. … Heretics usually do not perceive their own beliefs as heretical. ---------- I understand the gist of what the Yank is implying. What I don’t understand is his mincing of words bagged up into a bundle of fat to swing his punch line but instead of letting it fly has knocked himself under the chin. Will someone please interpret ... { “Start with the building itself. Ireland's embassy to Italy {picture from Google.com} The Irish embassy to the Holy See is in a beautiful building, the Villa Spada {see photo above}, in a beautiful setting on the top of the Gianicolo. Selling that would probably net the government a fair amount, but they're not selling it. No, they're moving Ireland's embassy to Italy from its cheap, rented accommodation {see photo left}into the Villa Spada. If they were serious about saving money they would not give up those cars-parked-in-the-doorway, paint-peeling-off-the-walls offices for a perfectly maintained hilltop Roman villa.”} ... what this cranky Yank is trying to say in English English which after all is our native language internationally useful for commerce? He has made his article sound something like maybe he’s peddling a concoction mix unacceptable in a puritan high quality spin Vatican sceptic tank.

• eiriamach | Nov 21, 2011, 05:10 PM EST

  Jacersagain, I'm sorry I missed your posts for a full week. Rule Number One for ecclesial formation: Christ is the head of the church. Priests and popes alike are servants. The mission of the church is God's, not to be supplanted by doctrines or magisterium or popes' purposes or bishops' lobbying goals, not to be held down in unchanging traditions such as reserving preaching and scriptural exegesis and administration of sacraments to males selected by males. (The early Christian Church members chose elders of diverse types as presbyters and ministers to the people.) People are abandoning the narrow view of church for an assembly that will be inclusive, far less sure of itself but more certain of help in pursuing God's purposes for humanity while exemplifying for everyone life lived in the spirit le gluaiseacht an Spioraid Naoimh. Níl ionann do bhóthar agus mo bhóthar féin anois, Jacers. Ach beidh mé fanacht leatsa ar an bóthar is ceart, bóthar na leasaitheora.

• jacersagain | Nov 14, 2011, 06:26 PM EST

  Foot note: Rule Number one is: Be aware that God exists. Rule Number two: see above.

• jacersagain | Nov 14, 2011, 06:16 PM EST

  (…more) So we cannot be ageist, in fact it is impossible to be ageist against an ageless Holy Spirit’s wisdom. Just as power corrupts and fails (think of today’s’ Italian PM Berlusconi, Libya’s Kaddafi, Yemen’s Saleh, Syria’s Assad et al, one can name thousands of others in history, including bad Popes of Rome), suffering humility empowers much more (think Occupy Wall Street, just as one Capitalist example or the simple Christian movement Totus Tuus, or the Human Humble and Humiliated abused children like those now-adults of One-in-Four in Ireland empowered by the Holy Spirit to speak out). We must respect that humility of the Holy Spirit’s wisdom in our daily lives. We must also respect that God our Father, through His personage in the Holy Spirit as exemplified in one of St. Patrick’s plucked shamrock’s leaves, One Plant yet three Leafs - Three Gods in One plant, the Holy Trinity - guided Jesus Christ to exclusively select a few males to “Do this in memory of Me” at the Last Supper. The Irish Govt still “doesn’t get it” where it made complete fools of themselves with their cowardly decision, showing the whole of the diplomatic world what a complete lack of wisdom they have. Not surprising that: once in a power position, most of the Govt’s Cabinet doesn’t believe in the empowerment of the humble abilities by the Holy Spirit of Wisdom. Crassly power-seeking, power-bludgeoning idiots they are… like meek-sounding, yet power-seeking Joanna Moorhead possibly is. I’m letting it go at that. Sin sin go fóill. *Post-script: Chuala mé thú, éiriamach, go raibh maith agat. Guigh go mbeidh sláinte liomsa agus leatsa ar an mbóthar seo*.

• jacersagain | Nov 14, 2011, 05:36 PM EST

  (…more) JM describes herself as a Catholic “hanging on by the fingernails” - like many Catholics, I’d add, including myself who one time went through huge doubts and actually stopped being a Catholic before I realized how wrong I was to have even thought of abandoning what was there in such huge simple measure to be treasured in the heart of the RCC, the living Christ of the Eucharist in the tabernacles of the world wherever I travelled, never mind my own dear Dublin City’s parishes' Tabernacles, despite the human faults of both religious and laity like me in the RCC. JM’s concluding statement - (after the words ‘Rome wasn’t built in a day…won’t be dismantled in a day’) which basically says that “the Church that will emerge from the ashes will be more Christ-like” - I found myself totally agreeing with, but hang on a minute: not for the reasons she propounds. For me, I’d substitute her words with “ashes of Satan” as opposed to what she sees as the ashes of elderly male power. In my humble opinion, the undertone of her article smacks of jealousy of power, like she wants to have power too. Sadly, she completely forgets or ignores that any supremacy of power in the Church is dominated by the Holy Spirit’s wisdom, even if It gives it to elderly people to express it even as doctrine, much as many bright young laissez-faire know-it-alls might disagree with their wise expressions. (So… more…)

• jacersagain | Nov 14, 2011, 05:14 PM EST

  eiriamach, hello again – What yr last post has to do with the cowardly decision of the Irish Govt that the Yank writes of above I’ll never know. But ironically, I had read Joanna Moorhead’s (JM) article (and a few others) on the ACP site after I had posted my last comments and before you posted yours mentioning her. I'd never heard of JM before but I found myself nodding my head, quietly agreeing with her article until, later thinking about what she says, I realised she was talking about power within the RCC and how she ascribed this power to a select few who “… believe in a God who makes his wishes known to a small and select group of individuals, individuals who happen to be exclusively male, and rather elderly.” One person posted a comment following her article, describing JM as “no friend of the Catholic Church… using this stick to beat the whole Church (the stick being a so-far unproven allegation by one woman against a Benedictine priest which JM refers to in her article; in this context let’s remember Fr. Kevin Reynolds in Ireland who was found to have been, without a single iota of doubt left, falsely accused of abuse through the medium of Irish TV, no less)”. Well, since I never heard of JM before, I don’t know about her not being a friend of the Catholic Church. But… (More…)

• eiriamach | Nov 13, 2011, 02:55 PM EST

  Jacers, as Rule Number One, not to be gainsaid by any person or group, a reformed Catholic Church in Ireland will be shaped by the people of Ireland. The ACP is trying to "assemble" people for the task. I have the distinct impression that the priests have no pre-determined agenda to impose. So if you are concerned that their efforts may go astray, perhaps you should get involved and have your voice heard. The latest article on the ACP site, written by Joanna Moorhead, concludes, "Rome wasn’t built in a day, and its untenable power structures won’t be dismantled in one either. The Catholic church’s Arab spring will take many years, probably decades, to achieve. But hear this, bishops and priests: our spring has started, and this week’s developments were important milestones. And know this too: the church that will emerge from the ashes of the old guard will be better, and bigger, and kinder, and more honest; it will be transparent, and accountable, and independent, and diverse. But best of all, it will be more Christ-like, too." The first meeting of the Assembly of the Irish Church is planned for Dublin on May 1st. ACP say, "We will welcome the cooperation of other groups, lay or religious, in this project. If you, as an individual or representing some group, would like to be involved would you please contact us. We aim to meet with interested parties sometime in January to plan the details of the event." It would be encouraging to see this effort succeed without obstruction or undermining.

• jacersagain | Nov 12, 2011, 11:28 AM EST

  Well said eiriamach, I cannot but fully agree with you especially re the dangers of a dead conscience 'in denial' way of thinking. However, as a lay man, I am watching the pronouncements of the ACPI with a bit of a jaundiced eye. There is a danger that they may unwittingly be resurrecting aspects of the Reformation mentality of the middle-centuries. If so, we Catholics of the laity can show them where the exit door is.

• eiriamach | Nov 12, 2011, 10:45 AM EST

  The Association for Catholic Priests in Ireland has become serious about launching reforms. See their Nov. 4 web article "Assembly of the Irish Church," along with comments from Pobal Dé and others. Now there's a movement to watch-- and maybe for those In Ireland to help out with. Aren't we all weary of hearing about the sex abuse cases and the church's ineffectual attempts to deal with its bad PR? I'll repeat here some of my comment on IC's news article on AB Martin: the second worst effect of the abuse revelations is the blunting of conscience that's happening now. The abuse stories send some people into full denial because it's too painful to read of one after another case coming to light and the abusers having escaped justice while victims were silenced, ignored, bought off, or disbelieved and left alone with their memories. So in the 'States, Herman Cain jokes about sexual harassment and Penn State treats the rape of a 10-year-old like a frat house prank. These are "dead conscience" reactions. It's not the loss of a Vatican embassy that puts us in danger of turning away from God (as AB Martin says), but this relentless assault by facts that can force us to retreat from truth into denial and excuse-making--> moral cowardice. A deadly combination of crime and cover-up repeated can corrode the conscience at last or "make a stone of the heart." Better to get involved with reform, and it's happening now, buiochas a Dia!

• jacersagain | Nov 11, 2011, 09:42 PM EST

  @supersurvivor - get yr facts right before you post anymore hatred. Here's a few repeated here for you since you ignored them the first time you read them: There are over 1.2 billion Catholics in the world; there are some 410,000 priests serving them; there are some 3000 priests under investigation by the Church for sexual wrongs, of which 900 are for heterosexual acts, 1800 for sexual acts to adolescents chiefly of the same sex, and the remaining 300 are for sexual acts against children. 2,400 of the 3000 are USA priests. In the light of these facts, I’ll leave yr post at 12.25pm to show all readers how you completely ignore the good work being done by the other 410,000 priests. You should never allow your hatred (you're forgiven that) to cloud your judgement.

• jacersagain | Nov 11, 2011, 08:22 PM EST

  BTW Yank - As for those who denigrate the Church and you and me and our kind (yes, they do), I don’t bother with them and I ignore them most of the time. I leave their boorish comments to stand out as witness for all to see how silly and ill-informed they are. These people are, sadly, typical of those whom Christ called Lost Lambs, the ones He wants to bring back to the flock of His universal Church. But where there’s life there’s hope and prayer for them as well as for us believers in Christ’s catholic message.

• jacersagain | Nov 11, 2011, 08:17 PM EST

  Yank, it was very kind of you to respond to my posts - I certainly did not expect that and I hope I didn’t disturb any of your quiet lay-off moments. I agree w/ most of yr points in the response and, lest anyone think I am blindly defending the Irish Catholic Church, I have to point out that in many posts on IC I have called for reform in Ireland and indeed in the way Rome goes about spreading the message of Christ. My huge hope of great reform in Rome was lost with the untimely death of Pope John Paul the 1st with his human warmth and lack of trappings, such as his insistence not to be crowned Pope but to have a celebratory Inauguration Mass instead. However, the papacy of JPII and that of Benedict today offer some hope, if not as much or as fast as might have happened under JPI or as I would like to see. >> The chuckling image of the Irish laity of an Irish Bishop on his ordination - “He’ll never want for a dinner again!” has got to be changed, along with the “Them & Us” attitude of some bishops & priests towards their laity. The Bishop Eamonn Casey affair and Fr. Michael Cleary’s secret sons with his housekeeper did untold damage to Irish Catholicism. The Child Abuse scandals made it much worse. Despite these tragic human events, the essential spiritual integrity of Catholicism perseveres amongst Irish people and I think we should maintain a diplomatic presence in the Vatican for many reasons. The Govt’s excuse was untruthful and cowardly, hiding behind the lamest pretext by any Govt. They should have the decency to own up to it and rescind the decision.

• TheYank | Nov 10, 2011, 06:17 PM EST

  Dublinlad
  
  Now who's pontificating?

• Dublinlad | Nov 10, 2011, 02:45 PM EST

  Listen Yank. Your pontificating is pissing me off. I dont care if they really are cowards and arent telling the truth the reality is the majority here want the blood of these fuc£ers and this is one way of doing it. They fudged major time on their response to Kenny's accusations in the dail and still wont admit that their policy was to avoid giving up the pedo's to the police. As for your bitchin about not telling the truth. On what planet does an american have the right to ask politicans to play their game with truth. Go home.

• TheYank | Nov 10, 2011, 12:04 PM EST

  abhainn,
  
  "... morally unworthy of a diplomatic mission?"
  
  Which foreign states do you include in the list of "morally worthy of a diplomatic mission?" That's not what a diplomatic mission is all about, unless you only want embassies where you really don't need them.

• TheYank | Nov 10, 2011, 12:00 PM EST

  CbradyM104
  
  It's cowardly because their reason for closing the embassy was that it was too costly. That's bunk, as I've laid out above. Close it if you want, but stand up for your reasoning. Don't insult the Irish people with nonsense.

• abhainn | Nov 10, 2011, 11:48 AM EST

  Good riddance to the embassy in the Vatican. These people are morally unworthy of a diplomatic mission.

• CbradyM104 | Nov 10, 2011, 08:33 AM EST

  Why is it cowardly?

• TheYank | Nov 10, 2011, 07:28 AM EST

  jacersagain
  
  I had made up my mind that I wasn't going to leave any more comments because I couldn't see that there was anything that I hadn't said. However, you've changed my mind.
  
  First of all, thanks for having my back. And, yes, I live in Wicklow.
  
  I don't think those who denigrate what I've written or indeed, denigrate me, are necessarily anti-Catholic or ignorant. They disagree with me and with you on this matter. There may be other matters on which you and I would disagree, but you or I might agree with one of the other commenters here. So long as we keep it civil - and especially non-libelous - I'm happy to engage as I can.
  
  I am Catholic, but I wouldn't want anyone to think I "eat the floorboards of the Church" as my mother-in-law would put it. In fact, I would never engage anyone on points of theology because, well, I'd be found wanting pretty quickly. I'm much more comfortable with politics.
  
  As a Catholic I sometimes wonder about aspects of the Church that I really find hard to understand, especially how bishops didn't understand how a parent would feel about someone who abused their child. I'm not sure anything could make me feel more murderous than that, yet bishops here and in America and elsewhere treated it as if it was not much more than a breaking of vows. I'm not sure I'll ever understand that. Also, I wonder if the Catholic Church wouldn't be better off without all those trappings of statehood. I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but in my ignorance I wonder about it.
  
  Lastly, if I were anti-Catholic I'd feel insulted by Kenny & Gilmore. They're looking for my applause & support for doing what I want done, but they lie about the reason for doing it? A one handed clap from me is all they'd get.

• jacersagain | Nov 09, 2011, 03:46 PM EST

  I wholeheartedly endorse what The Yank has written above, especially in these extracts: “...No, it was never about the money. That is a fib they're peddling...”... “How gutless. How wimpy. ... They should take the flak.” ... “...those same voters feel that the government insulted their faith and their intelligence.”... “Closing the embassy in a fit of pique is short-sighted. Lying about it is stupid.” Then John brilliantly tops it all off, pointing to the millions of euro contributions Irish taxpayers make to destitute African countries who will continue to maintain embassies to the Vatican while our Irish Govt lies in our faces saying it can’t afford to. Correct on all points I say John, thank you for writing this article for all to see the truth. Those who denigrate the Yank’s article are either anti-Catholic or ignorant of the significance and likely future consequences of the Govt’s decision. It’s a colossal mistake. If Greece can change its mind about a referendum within 24 hrs, then this Govt should also rescind this blindingly stupid decision immediately.

• jacersagain | Nov 09, 2011, 03:34 PM EST

  ChrisVogel (Nov 8th) shows he doesn’t know his way around Irish Central’s site. If he looked under blogs, he’d see The Yank is one Mr. John Fay, who is an American living somewhere South of Dublin City (or possibly “over the border” in Wicklow!) He is one of my favourites on IC. John has told us in previous blogs that he is an American-born Catholic who came to Dublin to study and ended up living here. He writes on many subjects that are topical in Ireland but very rarely on Catholic issues... his article above is hugely topical in Ireland these days and says clearly what the majority of us Irish Catholics think.

• RedBranch | Nov 09, 2011, 03:15 PM EST

  I say rent it to Silvio for pay per view Bunga Bunga parties.

• eiriamach | Nov 09, 2011, 01:48 PM EST

  Yank, if Ireland were getting more out of its diplomatic ties with the Vatican than it puts into dealing with the Vatican, I might agree with your last point. But in recent years, decades, Church-State relations have been a losing proposition for Ireland. As Newrone points out, the other impoverished nations that maintain embassies at the Vatican are doubtless getting a return on their investments. Thanks for your reply.

• Newrone | Nov 09, 2011, 01:14 PM EST

  I guess you need the odd senseless rant about nothing on here from time to time to make the others look good.
  
  What on Earth is the purpose of an embassy at the Vatican anyway? I don't remember the last time an Irish citizen got arrested by the ruthless Vatican police force or kidnapped by Vatican-based terrorists. Otherwise, is there any obvious reason why the embassy to Italy cannot do the job?
  
  For example, our Andorran representation is handled from our Spanish embassy in Madrid and Liechtenstein representation from our Swiss embassy in Berne, as is our Algerian representation!
  
  As for the Malawi/Zimbabwe/etc. representation, it's up to them but I would imagine they get more out of it from the Vatican than they invest themselves. Ireland is losing from it - and a lot more than just money.
  

• thesavageirish | Nov 09, 2011, 12:01 PM EST

  Still fuming! Cowards and knuckledraggers. Indeed. From someone whose had the benefit of coming from the country whose founding fathers understood the absolute crucial importance of seperation of church and state, a country that has by that very fact inspired the global politic of the world for two centuries..You have some cheek!

• TheYank | Nov 09, 2011, 11:50 AM EST

  eiriamach,
  
  I want to thank you for actually addressing what I wrote. I can't say I'm an expert on the Roman property market, but saying we're going to hold onto that property to sell when the price is higher is simply gambling. There is no guarantee the price will rise. It could fall further - especially if the euro crumbles.
  
  If Ireland had simply recalled our Ambassador to the Vatican and left the position open to match their move that would have been fair enough. Why close the embassy?
  
  You say no reason I give holds up. Then you say, "It's not more important to keep an embassy open than to help victims of famine, epidemics, natural disasters." Well, if those countries are suffering famines or epidemics or natural disasters why are they paying to keep a full embassy open at the Vatican? Why can we not afford what they can?

• TheYank | Nov 09, 2011, 11:44 AM EST

  thesavagirish,
  
  You say if a country "is still having pay out a couple of billion ... to it's abused citizenry due to the actions of deviants subject to and under the authority of a foreign power ..."
  
  That's just it. They were NOT subject to and under the authority of a foreign power. They were under the authority of the Irish government. The Irish government CHOSE to allow the bishops be the law enforcers when it came to the priest, brothers and nuns. It didn't have to be that way. They allowed that situation to develop. Heck, they actively encouraged it. Following independence Irish nationalism and Catholicism were ONE. Those two were merged into one driving ideology that ruled this state for the first, what?, 50 yrs after independence?
  
  Now we're having the (inevitable?) split and the state is dumping the blame on the church and the church is dumping the monetary costs on the state.
  
  None of that justifies closing the embassy. All that justifies closing the embassy is the balance of utility for the state. Does the state gain or lose by having an embassy at the Vatican? Even Muslim states see a benefit, but we don't. I'm not sure I accept that calculation. I definitely don't accept the calculation based solely on cost when states we're subventing spend OUR money on their Vatican embassies.

• thesavageirish | Nov 09, 2011, 10:01 AM EST

  Basic math Yank. If a country is tantamount to broke and is still having to pay out a couple of billion (legitimate and paltry given the extent of the crimes) to it's abused citizenry due to the actions of deviants subject to and under the authority of a foreign power then yes! such a settlement, still yet obfuscated,delayed and unresolved, does of course contribute to the ongoing indebtedness of the nation. As you say, 'It has everything to do with incompetence, corruption and malfeasance' and don't forget the big dollop of arrogance, cynicism and self righteousness thrown in. In order to pay their half of the bill they've increased the collections roster and are out with the begging bowl to the same people who paid the first half. The sheer brass of such a cynical and weasly action beggars belief. As to your, "Both the church and the state need to clean house and begin the process of renewal", pshaw!. Renewal? What is that? Latin for forget about the fact we abused hundreds of your children, that we want your irish women to go back to being 'churched' after they give birth since they are obviously sinners, that the women is always in transgression but never the man, they even got rid of Limbo lately so god knows what they did with the billions of 'unsaved' infants they've been collecting. Renewal means shut up,bow down, forgive our trespasses and fill that plate with money, all while hiding behind the anonymity of 'the office'. Not buying it Father Yank. The state has begun to clean its house and begin its process of renewal, starting with the removal of some obvious shackles. The church (not the vatican) is in perpetual renewal and should it remain relevant in the coming age that renewal will happen in Ireland with a native local celtic irish christianity that is older than the far off boardrooms of Rome and Constantinople. It is said we taught them how to read, perhaps now we can teach them to remember.

• thesavageirish | Nov 09, 2011, 09:59 AM EST

  Thanks Rebelforce for pointing out that the irish people still hold to the tenets of their belief that the hungry should be fed, the naked clothed and the sick offered comfort. Would a billion dollars help? Yes. But the fact that the people who would rather see the funds directed to christian charity have in the last few years already paid the equivalent of a thousand years of rent for a building in Rome which no doubt can be construed as something of an irish joke. It would almost be funny if....no. It's not funny at all.

• newcanaan | Nov 09, 2011, 08:27 AM EST

  American Catholics should boycott ireland by not visiting until embassy is reopened. I for one will.

• MontRoyalle | Nov 08, 2011, 08:57 PM EST

  Niall, Please stop sending me Irish Central until you have dumped YANK

• Rebelforce | Nov 08, 2011, 06:35 PM EST

  Thanks Yank, for pointing out the absurdity that countries who are receiving Irish foreign aid like Ethiopia, Malawi, Mozambique, South Africa, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia and Zimbabwe are all able to afford an embassy at the Vatican----but the Irish republic says they can't afford to have one. How's that for an Irish Joke? It would almost be funny, if it weren't so pathetic.

• seanomelbourne | Nov 08, 2011, 05:09 PM EST

  The Yank is spewing a mouthful of innane vitriol. Using the Irish Independent as a an information source is humorous considering the papers maudling attitude towards the catholic church over the years.

• eiriamach | Nov 08, 2011, 04:37 PM EST

  No reason the Yank gives holds up. Has the Vatican returned the papal nuncio to Ireland or appointed a new one? If the Vatican has not yet done its part to normalize the relationship, Kenny should not acknowledge any rupture but wait and leave possibilities, but not the embassy, open. A lie in the world of diplomacy is not the same as a lie between private persons. Neither side wants to seem to be the one to destroy the relationship, so both play the game. There's no faulting Kenny for giving a diplomatic-- and perfectly true-- reason for closing an expensive embassy even if the reason he gives is not the reason the government has for closing it. Also, I do not agree that Ireland should sell the Villa Spada in the current economic climate. Sure, there would be a profit on the sale, but probably much less than the government could realize by waiting for improvement in the real estate market, and selling now would give the appearance of desperation. And even a near-bankrupt country should try to meet its foreign aid commitments. It's not more important to keep an embassy open than to help victims of famine, epidemics, natural disasters. For a fair comparison, count up the costs of all the child abuse studies and compensation for victims, from the nine-year Ryan Inquiry and Murphy Report to the Cloyne and Donegal reports, the heavy costs for these and for victim compensation having been borne almost entirely by the Irish people. Spend more money for religion? It's time for Ireland to cut its losses.

• ChrisVogel | Nov 08, 2011, 02:11 PM EST

  No0 surprise that "The Yank" has no name. I wouldn't want this nonsense ascribed to me, either. You could grow up, but maybe it's too late. A legation to the Vatican, in the same city as an Embassy to Italy, is a ridiculous waste of mony, most vanity.

• shayblack | Nov 08, 2011, 01:59 PM EST

  No one should have an embassy with a religious organization. All the embassy's in the Vatican "State" should be closed.

• AengusOg | Nov 08, 2011, 01:25 PM EST

  In politics, it is what is done, not said. The hierarchy of the Catholic Church is filibustering on the most appalling sins imaginable. Enda Kenny has thrown down the gauntlet, in political terms. US Catholics are doing the same thing at the collection plate.

• Nicomax | Nov 08, 2011, 01:18 PM EST

  It's questionable why any country retains diplomatic relations with a private organization. Anyone can make up a religion, and if it gains enough momentum, then I guess some secular states would be willing to saddle up to them.

• christilcaugh | Nov 08, 2011, 01:18 PM EST

  I'm with hollabackgurl! The Roman Church has had an inordinate control over the life in Ireland for centuries. They are just pushing out the last of the controlling institutions and beginning to take the reigns for their lives. I am so glad for them!

• hollabackgurl | Nov 08, 2011, 12:07 PM EST

  Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Diderot.

• tocon1941 | Nov 08, 2011, 11:54 AM EST

  Afraid to throw off the chains? Need someone to tell you how to live? Need to feel guilty and subservient? Keep the church then lad. It's for you, for sure.

• TheYank | Nov 08, 2011, 10:53 AM EST

  No, the state's bankruptcy has NOTHING to do with the settlement costs. Nothing. It has everything to do with incompetence, corruption and malfeasance.
  
  "So now you suggest that after picking up that bill you think the irish people must now also provide them with a villa in Rome." What? I suggested nothing of the sort. The villa in Rome is owned by the Irish government and used by officials of the Department of Foreign Affairs. It is the embassy to the Holy See (& the ambassador's residence) and soon will be the embassy to Italy (& presumably that ambassador's residence).
  
  If the government wants to save money, they should sell the villa.

• thesavageirish | Nov 08, 2011, 10:38 AM EST

  Nothing to do with the fact that in a ridiculously generous agreement, a 50/50 split of two billion for settlement costs after abusing countless children, a bill the knuckledragging people paid, but the church has yet to pay their portion! Would that have anything to do with it? So now you suggest that after picking up that bill you think the irish people must now also provide them with a villa in Rome. What's wrong with staying at the bosses palaces? Headline should read 'Irelands cowardly governments are finally growing some'.

• TheYank | Nov 08, 2011, 10:32 AM EST

  Ratslayer
  
  This maturing democracy you speak of is on its knees, brought down not by the Church, but the state itself. It's bankrupt, treading cautiously around the feet of our betters, hoping for crumbs from their table and fearful of giving offense lest they cut us off all together.
  
  Both the church and the state need to clean house and begin a process of renewal.

• TheYank | Nov 08, 2011, 10:24 AM EST

  Towngate,
  
  I don't entirely disagree with what you've said. I think the separation of the State & Church will be good - for both.
  
  The relationship corrupted both.
  
  Your portrayal of McQuaid is one I don't subscribe to, but we cannot go back and fix the past. Then the state, the church & the people were ONE.

• Ratslayer | Nov 08, 2011, 10:23 AM EST

  Whine all you want, the Roman Catholic Church is dying in Ireland --and rightfully so given the church's long and disgusting history of criminality. And let's not forget how the church turned the Republic into some sort of crypto-fascist theocracy which kept Ireland a repressed (also economically) 3rd world nation. As we now see Ireland, a Democracy, is maturing --unlike the Vatican, which is no more than a creepy dictatorship concerned only with politics and power, not saving souls and making the world a better place.

• Towngate | Nov 08, 2011, 09:55 AM EST

  What,Yank? - are you still here!? Your last two posts were a bit off the mark but this one is 'beyond the beyond' altogether! - Lookit!, when that satanic roman mob had a grip on Ireland we all know exactly what they did with their power! Make no mistake! ~~~ This Government has made a courageous and valiant start to rid the land on these snakes who have poisoned the minds and spirits of the innocent people for far too long. There is still a lot to do. The priority must be to separate the State and Church. All Religious freedom smust be protected and allowed, but Churches,Mosques, Synagogues, etc., should only be allowed to operate on a strict business footing and without any ‘moral’ leeway or financial concessions from Government. ~~~ It is now time for us to finally correct the disasterous policy of ‘DeValera the Unprepared ‘whose paucity of vision, left the country victim to the Evils of McQuaid. ~~~ All ‘religious’ bank accounts, at home and abroad, relating to Ireland,should be frozen and all Property Assets sequestered, until The Secular Separation is complete.

• mikehoulihan | Nov 08, 2011, 09:53 AM EST

  Good article Ed, you are a voice crying out in the wilderness. Refreshing to read your stuff in the usually anti-Catholic Irish Central Thanks!

• thesavageirish | Nov 08, 2011, 09:53 AM EST

  Must say, some of the some of the descriptions are exactly what the irish public believes except the sentiments are not against the government! How gutless, how wimpy.They should take the flak. They didn't. They used prevarication and obfuscation in an attempt to hide the truth from those 'knuckle-dragging' penitents who still go to mass on sunday. It didn't work. Now those same penitents feel that the church insulted their faith and their intelligence.

• liamno1 | Nov 08, 2011, 09:52 AM EST

  Get real,it would be asking too much for the church to show shame for their CRIMES against innocent children.They shoul not even be recognised by the irish people

• cillowen | Nov 08, 2011, 09:46 AM EST

  Their sheep so infected are deserving of such rubbish. Keep on, keeping on to a quick and laughable end.

• TheYank | Nov 08, 2011, 09:27 AM EST

  No, of course Ireland's devout Catholics don't see themselves as 'knuckle draggers". That's just how they're portrayed by many in the media.
  
  The people of Ireland are angry at the Catholic Church for its failings. They should be. But the state? The state and the church were one. There was no separation in the way many these days talk about it. You know why these abuses went unchecked and unpublicized for so long? Because that's how the church AND the state wanted it.
  
  Nobody's faith abused anyone. Miscreants who abused the trust of the faithful did the abusing. They were enabled by weak, fearful men who didn't really trust in the power of the message they were supposed to be preaching.

• hollabackgurl | Nov 08, 2011, 08:21 AM EST

  'Knuckle draggers'? Perpetual victims? I don't think that's how Ireland's devout Catholics see themselves. If they feel the Irish government insulted their faith what do they feel about how their faith insulted and abused the Irish people (especially the Irish children) for decades? You can't really imagine the government should let the chuch take a mulligan for that without comment or consequence, do you? I mean, do you? So far there have been no mass arrests. Don't you think that's enough restraint, under the circumstances?