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An American in Ireland by The Yank

Ireland: prisoners can vote, emigrants cannot

Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2011 at 11:56 AM

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We are nearing the end of the election campaign (February 25) and, not surprisingly, the topic of emigration is featuring fairly high on the list of political issues. The various candidates are going to do this, that and the other to stop emigration or help those who have to emigrate. Of course, for those parties not in the outgoing government, the number of people having to leave the country makes for a handy stick with which to beat the current office-holders.

To any Irish people old enough, this is familiar territory. Emigration was a political issue in the 1950s and 1980s too and many of the same arguments and promises are being offered today. However, one twist is that this time there is an awareness that it is unjust that those who are forced to leave to find work cannot vote.

And they really cannot vote.

I always knew that there was no facility to enable emigrants to vote either with a postal vote or at embassies and consular offices, but I always believed that an emigrant could come home to vote if he or she wanted to do so. However, they cannot and to do so is actually to commit a crime, one that could entail a prison sentence if the emigrant was actually prosecuted and convicted for having the audacity to vote in their homeland.

An emigrant could be sent to prison for voting, which is ridiculous on two levels. First, the very idea that an Irish citizen who leaves home to provide a better life for themselves and/or their family should be punished for engaging in that most basic of civic rights is obscene. I can almost see the logic of not facilitating voting from overseas, but I cannot see why those few who might wish to go to the trouble and expense of returning to vote should be considered criminals for doing so.

Second, and even more bizarre, if a voting emigrant did end up in prison they would then be the only Irish person in prison who couldn't vote! Yes, prisoners in Ireland are allowed to vote - by mail. So there is a postal vote system for all sorts of people, including criminals, but not emigrants.

Get it? Murderers, rapists, bank-robbers, drug dealers, etc. can all vote if they find themselves doing hard time, but the poor old emigrant is denied that right. They're even denied the right if they're imprisoned for voting while living outside the state because a prisoner can only vote if he or she was "ordinarily resident in the State prior to his or her detention in prison."

It's an amazing state of affairs, one crying out to be corrected. I won't, however, hold my breath waiting for the new government to fix this because emigrants keen enough to want to vote probably have a real interest in returning to live in Ireland. So long as that desire goes unfulfilled they are unlikely to vote for the governing party(ies), which is why I fully expect that the incoming government will stall and prevaricate before dropping the whole idea.

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maceinri | Feb 19, 2011, 07:56 PM EST

TheYank I think we agree on all points here. I think that the prison system is supposed to be about rehabilitation and re-entry into society, but I understand that some people may feel that as long as a person is in prison they should not be entitled to vote. By contrast, votes for emigrants, especially involuntary emigrants, is a different matter - a no-brainer to me. That said, I don't agree with greensod's ill-informed remarks. I actually asked the question of 1980s generation emigrants in Paris, as to who they would vote for. The result wasn't surprising - an anti-Government sentiment, but no more than you'd expect, and certainly very little support for SF, whose economic analysis borders on the illiterate.

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TheYank | Feb 18, 2011, 01:47 PM EST

GeorgeDillon,

This bit - "You are unable to vote at your polling station because of your occupation" - includes people who are posted or sent outside the country by their employer temporarily. I don't think this applies for a short business trip. I remember back in the 90s I knew I had to be outside the country for work, but I was told I could only get a postal vote if my time outside was more than just a couple of days. It struck me at the time as being pretty vague.

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greensod | Feb 18, 2011, 01:46 PM EST

Come back spend your money,send your money back to Ireland.But remember if you try to exercise your born right to vote, you may end up in jail.Until this is changed a boycot of Ireland would seem to be in order.Australia,America and Canada could be of great help in this area by not doing business with the Irish Government until the right to vote is restored to all Irish born citizens regardless of where they are resideing.

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TheYank | Feb 18, 2011, 01:40 PM EST

maceinri

I acknowledge that the case for emigrant voting rights stands on its own merits, but that doesn't mean any issues are being confused. The issue is - who is eligible to vote in Ireland's elections?

At the moment those eligible includes prisoners - those who have forfeited many of their civic rights. Those who are ineligible includes citizens of Ireland who are have chosen - or been forced - to move outside the state in order to provide for themselves and/or their families.

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greensod | Feb 18, 2011, 01:31 PM EST

If all native born Irish living abroad,were allowed to vote the game would be over for F/F, F/G,and Labour.The red tape to get anything done would end.These three parties will never allow native born Irish to vote,they learned this trick from the English,You will note the shambles that the Irish schools are in,being taught in cardboard boxes,and not taught the skills needed for Ireland to stay abreast in the age of information.This is another lesson learned from the English.Keep them ignorant much easier to control.Sinn Fein would immediately put a stop to these policies, that prevent the rights of all native born Irish.Until Irish born people living abroad are allowed to vote in elections held in Ireland I can tell you that Ireland has not joined the nations of the world.

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Monsoonman | Feb 18, 2011, 12:05 PM EST

Ireland is just following the Chicago Illinois manual for voting. Chicago officials make sure that all of the prisons get their voting pamphlets and make sure every one of those votes is counted...often. Yet military personnel overseas don't seem to get their ballots at all, or if they do it is in not enough time for their votes to count. Remember this is the city that blessed us with our current resident of the whitehouse.

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maceinri | Feb 18, 2011, 11:44 AM EST

With respect, I think a number of issues are being confused here. The issue of whether prisoners can vote or not has nothing at all to do with whether emigrants can vote. I don't know what the law is in the USA concerning prisoners; I think it may vary from state to state. But the views of various European countries differ on this matter and there are some who hold that incarceration does not automatically disqualify the prisoner from the exercise of all of his/her political rights. I think it's possible for people to differ honestly about this. Emigrant voting rights are a separate matter. I agree that emigrants should be allowed to vote, at least, say, for a period of several years after leaving. Ireland is out of line with most countries in this regard. But I don't think you can equate emigrants and prisoners! The case of emigrants stands on its own merits.

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Searlit | Feb 18, 2011, 11:20 AM EST

This is the issue that makes the government in Ireland look like they've lost their minds.

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cillowen | Feb 18, 2011, 11:07 AM EST

its over - give up the ghost. nutcases.

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RedBranch | Feb 18, 2011, 09:39 AM EST

One more kicker: If your reside abroad you are still eligible to stand for election to the Dail. All you need do is register and pay a 500 Euro fee. Any chance of getting some absentee delegates?

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GeorgeDillon | Feb 18, 2011, 09:07 AM EST

No, Yank. I looked it up on the Citizens Information site. I quote:-----"You will normally be required to vote in person at an official voting centre but you may be eligible for a postal vote if you are: * An Irish diplomat or his/her spouse posted abroad * A member of the Garda Síochána * A whole-time member of the Defence Forces. You may also be eligible for a postal vote if you cannot go to a polling station because: * Of a physical illness or disability * You are studying full time at an educational institution in Ireland, which is away from your home address where you are registered * You are unable to vote at your polling station because of your occupation * You are unable to vote at your polling station because you are in prison as a result of an order of a court." So if you have a job interview in Paris, an important business meeting in New York, your mother is getting buried in Rome----forget about voting in these and all other cases.

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Prevailer | Feb 18, 2011, 06:00 AM EST

They pay taxes.

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TheYank | Feb 17, 2011, 04:54 PM EST

GeorgeDillon,

There are some circumstances where someone whose away on business can vote by mail, but I'm not exactly clear on what those circumstances are. Maybe I can find out.

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TheYank | Feb 17, 2011, 04:53 PM EST

jacersagain,

Funny, I only read that today, but it never struck me the way it struck you. You're probably right. The Minister could just change it to include those people who have left Ireland. Great stuff.

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jacersagain | Feb 17, 2011, 03:41 PM EST

The link to the Irish Electoral Act 1992 provided by Yank above shows a sub-section entitled “Special Voters List”. In it is says “The special voters list shall be in such form as the Minister may direct.” There’s the answer, I think. A government minister could, at the stroke of a pen, without consulting Dail Eireann (parliament) include Irish emigrants in the special voters list. Why hasn’t this been done before now?

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