Carping over Osama's death - you've gotta laugh
By: The Yank | Published Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 6:00 PM | Updated Friday, September 9, 2011, 10:17 PM
It took longer than I expected, but the hand-wringing, breast-beating, someone-ran-over-my-puppy whining about the manner of Osama bin Laden's death has really kicked in over the last 36 hours.
I was waiting for it all day Monday. When I hadn't heard much I thought that perhaps the people of Ireland were so enamored of Barack Obama that somehow the 'usual suspects' would feel compelled to shut up about poor 'ol Osama meeting his untimely demise. I'm certain that if bin Laden's killing had happened under President Bush the "discomforted" would have taken to the airwaves instantly and been firing off op-ed pieces and letters to the Irish Times before bin Laden had had time to make friends with the fishes.
So there was a pause, but since yesterday morning the Irish Times
letters page has been chock full of head-shaking tut-tutting about the "extra-judicial assassination" of bin Laden. Cry me a river.
Oh, and it's not just the letters to the editor either. High-profile political television
programs, call-in radio
shows, political cartoons {see above} and a number of
newspaper columns have provided plenty of space for the "disquiet" to be expressed.
From what I can make out these people are scandalized that "the Americans" failed to politely ask Pakistan for permission to search Osama's compound, failed to get an internationally approved search warrant, sent armed men in to capture Osama and failed to acknowledge when he said, "Okay, copper you got me fair and square" all under the watchful gaze of President Obama.
And, yes, they're scandalized by "the Americans", but they're actually horrified that this has happened under President Obama and not the previous occupant of the White House. I get the feeling their little dreamworld is collapsing around them as they digest the image of the President sitting, watching as Osama bin Laden is killed, rather than captured, under the President's orders. Oh, and nobody should have been in any way happy to learn that Osama was dead. Oh no.
There are some Americans here - those who didn't like President Bush and who moved here since, say, 2004 - who are only now realizing it wasn't just Bush that this vociferous group disliked. They don't like the United States of America.
Actually, that's not quite fair. They don't dislike America, but the America they like doesn't exist, has never existed and will never exist. The America they like is one where 300m Americans never vote for a government that would act in the nation's own self interest.
As for me, I find this stuff amusing. I don't get angry, but there was a time when I did. I got angry back in the fall of 2001, but really I'd heard a lot of the same stuff during the 90s and when the rawness of September 11 wore off I was able to ignore it and laugh at it again.
Don't get me wrong. If you let them, these people will get under your skin. You have to ignore them or listen to them as if they're a bunch of 17-year-olds discussing the meaning of life in hushed, serious tones. You know they mean what they say, but you really just want to laugh in their faces.
By no means do these moaners don't represent a majority view among Irish people. I'd probably venture that not even a sizable minority are at all worried by the fact that Osama is no more.
The cry-babies are not a completely insignificant number of people either, though. What's really annoying is that they always seem to end up on the radio, on the television and in the newspapers. They create the effect of seeming to be everywhere, of their views being widely held.
What really has me curious right now is whether the usual rent-a-mob protesters will take their cue and be out in force protesting over the upcoming visit of President Obama. Will they wave placards denouncing him as a war criminal? Will they demand his arrest? As of now, I kind of doubt it.
It was one thing to oppose President Bush, but it will be another to be so vocal in opposition to President Obama, who is very popular here. If they're going to be consistent, however, they can't just moan today and let it lie in 18 days time. They have to be out there on May 23rd opposing President Obama's visit. If they are it will look bad if they're shown in any American news clips, but in a way I hope they are out there making a scene. It will be a really good chuckle.
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.MarkRichey | May 11, 2011, 02:09 AM EDT
The Us actions are not scandalous, they're imperialist and illegal. That's a simple fact. Just as the US actions against the Palestinians are illegal and imperialist. Just as the support and training of Osama bin Laden by the US some 20 years ago was illegal and imperialist To te extent you support these actions, don't complain about 9/11, because people will fight back in this or some related way. What's that about reaping the whirlwind? USQuagmire@yahoogroups.com
seagreen | May 10, 2011, 12:00 PM EDT
I need to take some aspirin ! I actually agree with some of the statements on this thread
bullsballs | May 10, 2011, 11:55 AM EDT
when the leaders ignore the law, then, there is no law. the society that allows those leaders to ignore the law are responsible for the actions of their leaders. and that is why Islam is attacking those societies. it is too convenient that obl was killed, then buried at sea. he was a criminal, and should have been treated as a criminal. he then should be shown paying for his crimes and placed on world wide display proving he paid for his crimes. if obl isn't dead, but captive, isn't obama guilty of worse crimes?
derrymarch | May 10, 2011, 11:52 AM EDT
Without America, we'd never have gotten rid of Hitler or of the 9/11 monster! Thank you again, beloved U.S.A.!
LawrenceC | May 10, 2011, 10:53 AM EDT
Right on, Monsoonman and The Yank. Query: All those who hereinafter respond, assume bin Laden is in capativity, provide your estimate of how many hostages, American or citizens of other Western countries, will be taken month after month with the threat that said hostages will be killed unless OBL is freed.
seanomelbourne | May 09, 2011, 07:04 PM EDT
Flexible rules are rules you make up on the run.I never stated that the U.S. was a tyranny we are talking on a specific act the taking down of UBL. You appear to be defending the indefensible(my opinion)and withdrawing into that favoured place of some Americans "everybody is agin us".
RedBranch | May 09, 2011, 01:31 PM EDT
OK Yank you want to see and hear something unusual, make your way to Bowdenstown on 14 June, probably around mid afternoon(and I trust you will be able to find it on your second attempt). There you will witness a concentration of views which I believe you will find noteworthy. I for one would be very interested to hear your perception of the proceedings.
TheYank | May 09, 2011, 10:06 AM EDT
seanomelbourne,
I thought the central theme of your argument was that America was becoming a tyranny. I answered that although it's a laughable suggestion.
Actually, it's arguments like this that deter Americans from wanting anything to do with your ICC. Although I don't expect anyone to serve a writ on Pres Obama while he's in Europe for violating Osama's "civil rights" I won't be shocked if it happens either.
And stop with your Nuremberg comparison. If the war against Islamic fascism were to be waged like WWII, then the US and allies would first pulverize the towns & cities of the Middle East & Central Asia with the most powerful weapons available to ensure all civil society breaks down, all the while imprisoning millions of men.
Next go door to door collecting all weapons and anything that can be used as a weapon.
Next devise a reeducation program that will democratize and de-islamicize the region. (Denazification is the model, right?)
Then, when all of that is done, stage trials of the leaders where the verdict & even sentences (in many cases) are known in advance.
Then gradually rebuild society and release those men you hold captive, while remaining as a dominant occupying force, monopolizing all means of waging war.
Is that what the United States should be doing instead of running search & destroy missions on the leader of an as yet unbeaten foe?
DennisQ | May 08, 2011, 01:23 AM EDT
Nixon must be chuckling in his grave about all the Democrats endorsing the principle that the end justifies the means. He's the president who ordered the bombing of crowded cities in North Vietnam on the theory that this would bring about "peace with honor."
Nixon also created the "plumber's unit" - a group of secret operatives charged with plugging leaks of government secrets. They later broke into Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office in the Watergate building in hopes of finding something damaging to Ellsberg's reputation. "I am not a crook," Nixon boasted.
Today's special forces troops are well versed in assassination tactics. In and out quickly, they shoot first and don't bother with questions. They even used trained dogs.
Like Nixon was before him, President Obama is gifted with the ability to discern the greater good. Congratulating the team of assassins, Obama remarked, "Justice was served." Indeed, as the equally insightful Ajreaper has pointed out, "Democracy has survived far worse."
seanomelbourne | May 07, 2011, 02:34 AM EDT
Your entitled to your feeble opinion.
Ajreaper | May 07, 2011, 12:55 AM EDT
Good Lord democracy has survived far worse then us taking out Osama- take a look at our history and tell me something like this is some huge tipping point for democracy and I'll tell you both you don't have a clue about much of anything.
seanomelbourne | May 06, 2011, 09:28 PM EDT
No one is listening DennisQ Some people do not understand that to act like the terrorist puts the democratic system at risk.
seanomelbourne | May 06, 2011, 07:55 PM EDT
The yank!! I noticed you never attacked the central theme of my argument. You prefer to use emotive speech "chest thumping" to misrepresent what I said.The misinformation from the WH in the UBL affair leads me to believe he died in a hail of bulls--t
DennisQ | May 06, 2011, 05:50 PM EDT
Don't mean to interrupt your laughter, Ajreaper, but have you bothered to think about accountability? The next time a politician dispatches a hit squad, does he have to tell us about it? Does he have to tell anybody?
Ajreaper | May 06, 2011, 04:13 PM EDT
Well there's a ton of hogwash for us all Dennis- thanks for the laugh.
DennisQ | May 06, 2011, 03:54 PM EDT
The reason bin Laden had to be assassinated may be that the case against him is actually rather weak. The one video in which bin Laden is said to have boasted of his responsibility for September 11th is a clumsy forgery.
Bin Laden was found guilty in the newspapers, a classic case of "everybody knows who did it." Bringing him to justice would have allowed him to put up a defense . . . which may have raised reasonable doubts as to his guilt.
It's a slippery slope from using extralegal punishment against bigtime criminals to using it against smalltime criminals. And then we won't have a justice system at all. It will be like Argentina where enemies of the state are simply "disappeared."
Monsoonman | May 06, 2011, 11:28 AM EDT
Have any of you listened to radio transmissions from the hijacked passenger jets on 911? You will hear a gurgling sound in the bacground, from the pilots with the slashed throats slowly dying. You hear the islamists telling the pilots to be quiet and die, then we hear chants of allah akhbar. You looney toons (that includes eric holder) who think these insane clowns deserve "constitutional rights" are crazier than the islamists themselves. What gave us 911 was the crazy left de-balling our intelligence agencies and making them a joke. Obama and his cronies are once again emasculating our intelligence apparatus setting us up for another 911.
pugsmom | May 06, 2011, 10:48 AM EDT
Seems I recall parts and pieces of "the world" in general demanding to know why the USA couldn't find, capture/kill OBL. Now that he has been eliminated, "the world" wants to know "how dare you; an unarmed man!" Yeah, like a rattlesnake is unarmed! I would like to point out that the 3000 or so people in the WTC buildings, and in the airplanes used as weapons, were unarmed, as well. Although I don't believe this maggot's death is going to make one iota of difference in the world scheme of terrorism, I'm glad the bastard "bought it." Good on ya, Navy SEALS!!!
Ajreaper | May 06, 2011, 10:22 AM EDT
You moronic naysayers- how many international terrorist has the UN or the International Court in the Hague brought to justice? What resources had they dovoted to finding Osama or any terrorist? Heck how many genocides have occurred around the world while the UN and the international community at large sat back and debated and passed resolutions condemning what was happening while mass graves were being filled? Everybody looks at evil, agrees its evil then wants to reason with it or stop it with words, resolutions and embargos all of which fail. But let's just keep doing what we know does not work- you don't show up to a fight prepared to speak harshly to your opponent and you never want it to be a "fair" fight, you strike quick, hard and fast with complete surprise and crush them. Let them bury their dead and whine about the unfairness of it all.
citizen69 | May 06, 2011, 09:42 AM EDT
@theyank: While i mostly agree with your opinion, i would like your thoughts on the following scenario.... The leaders of the Real IRA live just over the border from Northern Ireland in the Republic. In 1998 they planted a car bomb in Omagh, Northern Ireland, that murdered 31 innocent people. These leaders where later found guilty of these murders in a civilian court case but did not go to jail. What would be your feelings if the British SAS launched an operation to assassinate these IRA leaders in the Republic's territory without even consulting with the Irish government on any level? The Real IRA have after all declared war on Britain. Now i'm not comparing 31 deaths to 3000 but these families suffered every bit as much as any on 9/11. It's just that sometimes i feel that there is a hypocrisy in how America feels it can deal with terrorism compared to how it thinks the rest of the world should.
citizen69 | May 06, 2011, 09:12 AM EDT
While America may be far from perfect i can't see how anybody can complain at the way this warmongering terrorist died, except for the fact that he got off too lightly.... And while I and many Americans would agree with your statement that "Bin Laden was the head of an organization at war with the United States. Therefore, the rules of war, not the rules of civilization apply." I find it strange how many of those same Americans would disagree when that same statement is used regarding the IRA's 'war' against the UK... Suddenly 'shoot to kill' becomes illegal!
TheYank | May 06, 2011, 05:42 AM EDT
Okay, now I'm chuckling again. First of all, the USA is far, far removed from a "tyrannical regime." The government is formed according to the will of the people and its citizens are guaranteed certain "inalienable" rights by the constitution. America's justice system is not perfect, but none is. I'd say it functions as well as could be hoped for.
Your chest-thumping defense of international law, etc. flies in the face that "international law" was not going to nab bin Laden. He was living in that compound for years. It seems fairly likely that there were people in the Pakistani government and its intelligence services who knew who lived in that compound, but were willing to overlook the fact.
Bin Laden was the head of an organization at war with the United States. Therefore, the rules of war, not the rules of civilization apply. Those rules are much more flexible than the laws that apply within a functioning civilized society. The Navy SEALs were ordered into to capture or kill bin Laden and any associates by the President under the rules of war.
Far as I'm concerned that's it. Nothing else matters. Other than it's a proud moment.
seanomelbourne | May 06, 2011, 04:27 AM EDT
The Yank!! Nuremberg and later the international courts were set up bring terrorist to trial and to maintain a system of justice. The U.S. of course refuses to recognise the International Court therefore allowing it's military to break international law with impunity,yet the U.S.is not averse to citizens of other countries facing these courts. This seems to be a hypocritical stance.Courts of law are redundant in countries ruled by tyrannical regimes. Is this what you wish for the U.S.A.
TheYank | May 06, 2011, 03:02 AM EDT
seanomelbourne
Your assertion that only a court can determine if someone's a mass murderer leaves an awful lot of history's mass murderers in a 'not guilty' position.
War is not civilized. It's the opposite. It's barbaric. When you're at war, you're saying that the normal rules of civilization don't apply. Osama bin Laden/Al Qaeda were in a declared state of war with America. After September 11, that war was joined by the US. From that moment courts of law were redundant.
seanomelbourne | May 06, 2011, 01:01 AM EDT
He's not a mass murderer until a court finds it so,there's always a element of doubt if protocols are not followed.That's the reason why we live by rules,you cannot pick and choose. Its called a "civilised society"and when we deviate our enemies throw it back at us.I understand that the majority in the U.S. do not care that he was killed,but that does not change the fact that it was illegal. Just a taught to keep in mind when some group may try to kidnap americans in retaliation and you scream "That's not fair"
DennisQ | May 06, 2011, 12:54 AM EDT
It's only a matter of time before smaller criminals are disposed of the same way big criminals are. Trials are messy; and guilty people frequently get off because of mistakes made by the prosecution.
There are lots of examples in world history of defendants who were wrongly convicted because the newspapers said they were guilty. Sacco and Vanzetti were executed because evidence exonerating them wasn't even considered. Did Bruno Hauptmann kidnap and kill the Lindbergh baby? The newspapers were quite sure he did it. Similarly, French prosecutors were certain that that Capt. Albert Dreyfus was a spy for Germany because he was Jewish.
The Irish have some experience with bad justice systems imposed on them. That's probably why they recoil at the thought of summary executions carried out by anonymous commandos. Perhaps they are aware of Lord Acton's famous quote, Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Secret trials resulting in secret verdicts are already leading to secret executions. How long will it take for the United States to start "disappearing" political enemies closer to home than Afghanistan?
TheYank | May 06, 2011, 12:34 AM EDT
One more thing: it's not just Ireland where you have such carping. Read the comments from the Archbishop of Canterbury.
TheYank | May 06, 2011, 12:30 AM EDT
elektros,
Not sure what you're talking about - "not done right." I can't imagine "it" being done any better. I'd have been happy enough with a drone strike, but this was far, far better. The operation's planning & execution will not have gone unnoticed by the enemy. I can't see how you can't but be proud knowing there are men like those Navy Seals on our side.
TheYank | May 06, 2011, 12:27 AM EDT
manhattan,
I want to emphasize that the views I'm talking about above are NOT the majority view here. I'm pretty sure only a small minority managed to get worked up by the manner of bin Laden's death. They just get a disproportionate amount of airtime/newspaper column inches.
TheYank | May 05, 2011, 11:44 PM EDT
If you are going to fight a war you fight to win not to win AND not piss anyone off. Why in Gods name do people think we should be hampered by "rules" and play nice or play fair silliness when the other side plays by absolutely no rules? How in the hell is there a wrong way to kill a damn mass murder? How is there a wrong way to kill a man who sends planes into buildings or suicide bombers into markets? I don't care how they killed him, I don't care if he was unarmed or shot in front of his wife and child- I don't care. What they need to understand is we will hunt them constantly, we will use every resource at our disposal and when we find them we will kill in the manner we find best- so that means if they climb into a car with their family and we have a predator up we'll blow the car to hell and not think twice. There is to much at stake to handcuff ourselves while they do as they please. The most difficult thing is much of the world wants the U.S. to "act" but they want to micro manage how we act and when we act- if you don't like how we do it start shoulding some of the load yourselfs other wise thank you is sufficient.
elektros | May 05, 2011, 11:18 PM EDT
I was content to say nothing, and just be glad that they got him, until eejits like you started celebrating the way it was done, and then I have to face up to the fact that it wasn't done right. You know that and I know it. Ah well, at least they got the bugger, I suppose.
seanomelbourne | May 05, 2011, 09:20 PM EDT
The misinformation and disinformation coming from the WH is almost comical. Most people do not care how he died so the simple truth would have been sufficient.Unfortunately UBL died under a hail of bullshit.
manhattan | May 05, 2011, 08:11 PM EDT
Yank I have to commend you for keeping your cool in a country that insults your country every day. But as you said "you had to learn to laugh at it". Stay strong and don't let those know nothings get under your skin.
DennisQ | May 05, 2011, 07:32 PM EDT
If you were going to sell the American justice system on Craigslist, your ad would have to acknowledge its imperfections. Otherwise when buyers show up at your door they'll think you were trying to put one over on them.
It's a perfectly good justice system, not a thing wrong with it. It just doesn't scale up very well. It handles small-size crooks just fine; even some mid-size crooks get justice too. But big-time criminals like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? No way. Even bringing him to trial is out of the question.
In its day the American justice system was a real workhorse. But lets face it, they don't make justice systems like they used to. If we can't put the Guantanamo detainees on trial, we certainly can't put the Head Guy on trial.
And don't worry about justice, that's what commandos are for. There isn't a justice system in the world that wouldn't find bin Laden guilty. American justice is about as good as it gets. Booyah, booyah.
Bring it on. USA! USA! We're number one.