Ireland turns on gypsies homeless
By: Mary Catherine Brouder | Published Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 1:02 PM | Updated Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 1:02 PM

No matter where you go in Dublin’s city center, and many large cities, you’ll almost always find people sitting on the street begging for their keep. You’ll see young runaways, sullen addicts, and Roma people, often referred to as gypsies.
Despite the fact that the Roma usually don’t exhibit addictions, have children with them, and maintain distinctly tidy appearances despite their meager means, it’s always the Roma people I hear my Irish friends and neighbors complaining about.
As France officially began deporting hundreds of Roma families this week, I took part in more than a few interesting conversations about this blatantly discriminatory new policy. Several of my friends were, like me, horrified, but I was surprised to see how many people fiercely supported the measure.
One friend launched into a tirade about the horrors of “the gypos.” When I pressed him to explain where his decidedly pejorative frame of mind about the Roma came from(perhaps personal experience?), he merely offered the usual, “they’re just rude, and so ignorant.”
In order to justify his bigotry, he offered, “They hurt their children to help their chances of getting more money from begging.” Did he have any proof to support such a horrid accusation? None.
It seems to me, from a purely logistical standpoint, that it would require a much more parenting to raise a disabled child on the street, rather than a perfectly healthy one. And for that matter, wouldn’t it cost more in medical bills throughout a child’s life than his parent could ever hope to earn from begging for change?
Even if that one didn’t make the most sense, he had another reason for his prejudice against them. “When you give them money, they pool it all together from all of their posts around the city and then when they get back to their camp, they divide it up.”
Well to me, that just sounds like an example of business savvy and good sharing, and certainly does not constitute evidence of crookery and inherent dishonesty, as he would have me believe.
As it so happens, I spent time with Roma people a few months ago while working on a documentary. My co-producer and I traveled around Hungary, to some of the most destitute and hopelessly impoverished slums I have ever seen. And yet I’ve never meet people as eager to open up their homes and hearts, as the Roma people in those neighborhoods.
All of the families we visited gave us three kisses on the cheeks – a Hungarian custom – and offered us coffee and literally every single scrap of food that they had.
One older woman spoke about having barely enough money to buy loaves of bread for her family members. She then laughed at the absurdity of being able to afford meat to put on those loaves. It was an awkward silence, full of shame and sorrow, that followed.
The Roma are not just poor people. They live in homes without proper heating, electricity, or sanitation.
They live in conditions that no human should have to endure, and if they were anything but Europe’s scapegoat for all of its financial problems, they wouldn’t be allowed to.
I spoke with Prof. Jack Greenberg, a civil rights attorney who spent time in South Africa during apartheid, and traveled through several Roma camps and neighborhoods. He said that the Roma living conditions were worse, by far, than any of what he saw in the South African shanty towns.
The lucky ones get out of the places where they’ve historically suffered from slavery, genocide, discrimination, and marginalization, to start anew in places like France, or Ireland.
And when they get here, they fight for every dime they get. Yes, I have had a few unpleasant experiences with Roma people aggressively begging on the street, but at the end of the day, if I had to rely on the charity of other people to feed my children, I’d fight tooth and nail to get any money I could out of our ungenerous citizenry.
A few days ago, I met had a chance meeting with a Hungarian living in Ireland. So I excitedly told him that I had traveled all around his country, documenting the plight of the Roma people. His facial expression turned from one of delight to disgust. “The Roma people?” he offered with a condescending snort.
“Have you been to any of the jails?” Well, no. “They’re full of Roma people.”
Interesting. I spoke about how a legacy of poverty and endless discrimination and marginalization leads to hopelessness, and often, in turn, crime. He cut me off, “The police over there, they are afraid to arrest anybody because they’ll say, hey you’re just doing it because I’m Roma.” He finished this last bit with a satisfied imitation of someone playing the “poor me” card.
I thought about it for a moment, and then I realized that didn’t make any sense.
“Well,” I asked, “are the jails full of Roma people, or are the cops afraid to arrest them? It can’t be both.”
He had no answer for this. He, like millions of others all around the world, had been fed a bunch of tripe about people that are different, and being inclined to dislike what it unfamiliar, he agreed to allow every reason he was given, to support his theory. Even if they were literally contradictory and illogical.
Discrimination is never logical. Nor is it permissible.
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.Justthefacts | Oct 14, 2010, 12:17 PM EDT
I think Miss Brouder should lobby the American parliament to take in the Gypsies and give them housing and benefits. She seems quite keen for other Countries to do so.
kaydog1 | Sep 30, 2010, 05:21 PM EDT
Am I missing something? Is there some innate reason these folks can't go to school, get a JOB, and be PRODUCTIVE in society? The article acknowleges that begging is their business, but not that this is NOT a legitimate business activity, so why smile at it, Ms Brouder? Perhaps the reason the Roma are pushed from place to place is that no country considers this exploitation of pity to be a desirable trade, but the Roma won't change. Also, it is well documented that begging 'cartels' have crippled children to make them appear more sympathetic and thus more profitable to their handlers. This is a filthy business-do NOT try to defend it somehow as a human right!
LITTLEGOAT | Sep 26, 2010, 09:49 AM EDT
we are all children of yaweh, redeemed by jesus christ
Justthefacts | Sep 23, 2010, 07:52 AM EDT
Mary has posted this article twice. The "deleted" posts are on the other version.
cavantown | Sep 23, 2010, 12:38 AM EDT
Of interest to previous poster: This study reports that 48% of Irish adult men engage in an episode of binge drinking at least once a week compared to 9% in Germany, 8% in France, and 11% in Italy (Ramstedt and Hope, 2005). Roma, gypsies, Travelers all together make up less than half of 1 percent of the population and that includes women and children...so the award for overindulgence in alcohol goes to.......
justhimself | Sep 22, 2010, 10:10 PM EDT
MY POST WAS CENSORED, A CLEAN FACTUAL STATMENT,
jacersagain | Sep 22, 2010, 05:39 PM EDT
(...contd) ‘Tinkers’ on the other hand are genuine travelling tradesmen and craftspeople; they too travel the roads of Ireland, offering pots and pans they make from scrap metals (Get it? “Tin”-kers?) But they are prone to overindulgence in alcohol, just like their brethren the ‘Knackers’. Knackers are no-good travellers and street beggars – the “Have pity on poor me” kind; the “Look at me, my husband beat me up last night: spare me a few coins an’ I’ll say a prayer for you” kind. Genuine Gypsies are rare in Ireland these days... they’ve moved on to England where they complain that the British Govt isn’t doing enough to help them. And so it goes on... endlessly, until European leaders and policy-makers get a grip on how to deal with beggars. With all the benefits that most Europen countries offer unemployed people, there should not be a single beggar out on the streets of their streets.
jacersagain | Sep 22, 2010, 05:37 PM EDT
(...Contd) Others became ‘New Age Travellers’, going from town to town in droves of plush caravans, selling carpets, rugs, holy pictures and whatever else door-to-door, looking smart in business suits. A large number of these ‘New Age’ people own modern luxury homes on the outskirts of Limerick city but still travel the country roads selling dubious ‘genuine’ Iranian rugs, carpets etc. They look smart and clean, are generous to a fault, when attending Sunday Masses wherever they stop off, in placing money on the church collection plates but never pay national taxes, operating in such a way as to avoid doing so and always park illegally in church or train car parks or wherever else they can find until thrown out by Court Orders, only to move on to the next town and do the same. (More...)
jacersagain | Sep 22, 2010, 05:37 PM EDT
I have to challenge thinking regarding names like ‘Travellers’, ‘Tinkers’, ‘Gypsies’ and ‘Knackers’ such as exist in Ireland. The phrase ‘Travelling Community’ applies to all four but each is a class of its own. Efforts have been going on over the past good few years to take the ‘Travelling Community’ off the roads of Ireland and settle them in permanent, heated, comfortable homes. Some have settled and become members of the local communities. Many are rejected by local communities which don’t want ‘Travellers’ in their midsts, not without cause mind you: settled travellers often throw drunken parties with guests every night and violently wreck the houses they’ve been allocated by Local Authorities. (More..)
jacersagain | Sep 22, 2010, 04:57 PM EDT
Cavantown (Sep 21, 10.31) picks up exactly on my point: you can scam the charitable and cheat the law of the land by worthlessly playing a musical instrument while publicly displaying a begging bowl on the streets of Ireland to avoid being arrested for begging. Busking is legal in Ireland, since Ireland changed the law to classify musical beggars are “Street Entertainers”, “working” for their street money and therefore cannot be beggars. Pull me other leg please, I need another laugh.
kell7757 | Sep 22, 2010, 01:03 PM EDT
why are my posts being deleted
kell7757 | Sep 22, 2010, 12:55 PM EDT
my post was censored
lostgold | Sep 22, 2010, 10:52 AM EDT
The name Roma does not come from amor i.e.love spelt backwords it more likely comes from Romania where a lot of them used to live as well as neighboring Hungary. Contrary to the assertions of a previous commentator they are not a free love people. Quite puritanical among their own group as a matter of fact ;sexual promiscuity among them is regarded as unclean. Also since when did Irish courts start confiscating peoples property in secret unless you owed the government money for back taxes. I think some people are living in a dream world or are deliberately making up dream stories that are not true. Also why should the Catholic church persecute the Roma. Most of Europes gypsies or Roma are Catholic anyway and in whatever country or continent they lived in they always deferred to the majority religion. Very open minded people that way anyhow
Justthefacts | Sep 22, 2010, 08:16 AM EDT
When people from Ireland left to start a new life in America, they did just that. Built a home, found a job, became American with Irish roots. What they didn't do is turn up and expect hand outs from the state. Ireland cannot become a dumping ground for Europes poor. If immigrants can integrate into the state and put something into the "bucket" before taking it out, then I don't think it would be such an issue.
IrishAndProud | Sep 21, 2010, 11:59 PM EDT
Uh, yeah...smoking and drinking yourself to death are legal, too -- so...your point?
cavantown | Sep 21, 2010, 10:31 PM EDT
Of interest: Busking which is what is described in a previous comment...is legal in Ireland. As for France being tolerant of minorities... what way did they vote on Muslim women's attire? BTW...this was on an Irish Gov site: Many Roma have been in Ireland for up to 10 years and many have been granted citizenship through the naturalisation process and are now Irish Citizens.
Dublinjas | Sep 21, 2010, 08:09 PM EDT
Would the author of this Tripe take the Roma into her own home, And if she would , Why doesn't she do it and give us all fcuking peace.
IrishAndProud | Sep 21, 2010, 05:15 PM EDT
cavantown, if you're referring to Irish 'Travelers' as they're known, they are Irish people -- and not the Romanian/Gypsie/Roma we're talking about, here. Two totally different ethnic groups.
jimmy12003 | Sep 21, 2010, 05:06 PM EDT
they are just like the regular knac-kers we have to put up with here! law breaking cun-ts like the government we have!
jacersagain | Sep 21, 2010, 04:51 PM EDT
(..contd) But you know what? I’ve never seen any one of the Roma people doing a day’s work to earn money. They simply beg on the streets, posing as street musicians. I’m sure that grey van comes to collect them all later in the day and brings them back to wherever they stay, only to repeat the exercise the next day and the next etc. What goes on then is anyone’s simple guess. My guess is that they are soft versions of mafia families whose only purpose is to collect money from gullible, charitable people, doing nothing to earn it. Much of the money collected is pooled then brought back to say, Romania or Bulgaria, to distribute and pay airfares for more Roma people to disperse around Europe’s main cities to beg, always with the intent to take the unearned money out of the countries that they solicit in. I can see where France’s President Sarkhozy is coming from and I would like to see the Irish Govt do something similar.
jacersagain | Sep 21, 2010, 04:48 PM EDT
I agree with IrishAndProud on this. The problem of Roma people in any city of Europe is a big one. They arrive from wherever with only one purpose in mind – to beg for money on the streets. It is a highly organised matter. In Venice, I’ve seen black-gowned, head-covered women dispersed around the entrance to St. Mark’s Cathedral, one hand discretely poking out in begging mode; it’s clear that they all know each other, so it is an organised affair. I’ve seen it happen in a large town just outside Dublin where I saw a grey, windowless van arrive in the main street. It looked like any other delivery or tradesman’s van, with a sliding side door and back doors. The driver got out, opened both sets of doors and out poured about a dozen Roma beggars. He directed them to their begging spots around the street. Some carried an accordion, some a flute, some a guitar - all carried a collection box of some kind. Now, I agree that Roma people are peaceful people – they don’t drink, don’t start fights between themselves and don’t cause trouble like Irish Travellers often do. (contd..)
sirpeter | Sep 21, 2010, 03:57 PM EDT
My post was censored too and deleted,for what reason I'm not sure,I guess you have to agree with the topic and feel sorry for the Roma people and say the French government are wrong and a bunch of bigots. This is what the article is saying,but it must be bad if the french are deporting some Roma families,because history shows that the french have been very tolerant towards minority groups,unlike the history of a certain country west of Ireland. I guess this post will be deleted too,because I agree with the french even if Henry cheated us out of the world cup.
GeorgeDillon | Sep 21, 2010, 03:31 PM EDT
Cavantown: "Many Roma living in Ireland are Irish citizens". That's utter nonsense. Have you ever been to Ireland? Do you even know who the Roma are? You think the Roma and the Irish Travellers are one and the same? What a dope. Please, stop wasting our time.
cavantown | Sep 21, 2010, 01:16 PM EDT
Even at 23,000...would that be about 1/2 of 1 percent of the population? Would Romania and Bulgaria be part of the EU and therefore its citizens be extended the same rights as an Irish person's to live in another EU nation? BTW Many Roma living in Ireland are Irish citizens...and who says that the rest of those living in Ireland are not there legally under Irish/Eu guidelines? Check the government stats!
GeorgeDillon | Sep 21, 2010, 01:01 PM EDT
Conor: "Why delete my previous comment? I am entitled to an opinion aren't i?" You're right, there is clear evidence of censorship by IrishCentral on this topic. I know of another posting which was censored, removed after it was posted. It supported France's posture in viewing Roma criminality and begging as unacceptable, but there was nothing offensive in the post. I assume the same is true of your posting, Conor. What's with the censorship, IrishCentral? No one is attacking the Clintons on this thread--no need for your censorship!
GeorgeDillon | Sep 21, 2010, 12:57 PM EDT
cavantown--you show your ignorance. Roma are not Irish, they are from places like Romania, Bulgaria etc. Really, don't burst in to a conversation when you know nothing about the topic.
Justthefacts | Sep 21, 2010, 11:33 AM EDT
Cavantown needs to do the math(s). The figure 3 years ago was estimated at between 2,000 and 6,000 Romas in Ireland, with a figure of Irish travellers at around 23,000. These figures would not have gone down in the last three years. The figure in the UK combined is around 300,000 which is a conservative estimate based on caravan count 4 years ago. The problem however is not the numbers. It's where they are. I liken it to someone pitching a tent on your front lawn and asking you for money every time you leave the house. You may allow them to stay and you may give them money, or you may ask them to get off your property. It's the same with the state, you either give them somewhere to live and benefits or you find ways to get them to leave. Obviously if they are not legal, then there is every justification in deporting them. (Ireland has limits on new EU members entering the Country). What is not acceptable is camping on private land.
cavantown | Sep 21, 2010, 10:59 AM EDT
Of interest: Most Roma/ gypsies are Irish citizens by the fact that their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. have been born in Ireland. As for cultural assimilation...it does not determine citizenship. Highest crime rate in Ireland is amongst its non Roma/gypsy/traveler communities. BTW...2,000 out of 4,400,000 is what percentage? Do the math... Research before writing on a public blog is probably a good idea!:)
cabbagehead44 | Sep 21, 2010, 10:39 AM EDT
I agree with the writer. These people need help and not criticism. It's too bad that people will scapegoat them and blame them for causing problems that they are unwilling to address. There is an old Indian saying, "Don't judge anyone unless your have traveled 1M miles in their shoes."
JBRAFTREE | Sep 21, 2010, 10:28 AM EDT
I'm confused. Have these people gone from being called Tinkers to Travellers to Roma in my lifetime????
IrishAndProud | Sep 21, 2010, 02:35 AM EDT
Irish-born doesn't make you Irish, in the least. It just means you exited the birth canal, whilst on that particular land. How you live and whether you assimilate (or even CAN assimilate) determines that. Further, thousands of Gypsies in a land of only four million people is a noteable percentage of the populace...and that's assuming their numbers are not really even greater.
Justthefacts | Sep 21, 2010, 01:49 AM EDT
Of interest, there are believed to be over 6,000 Roma in Ireland. No-one knows the exact figure.
cavantown | Sep 20, 2010, 11:28 PM EDT
Of interest: It is believed that there are fewer than 2,000 Roma living in Ireland, most of whom are Irish born. I believe a recent report by the Commission on Racial Equality demonstrated that there is no statistical increase in local crime associated with the presence of Travellers/gypsies in any Irish community. Prejudice resulting in discrimination is always bad.
IrishAndProud | Sep 20, 2010, 09:49 PM EDT
And btw Mary (this article's author), your last statement is both typically liberal -- and proposterous. Discrimination (not just the word but the whole NOTION of which has been stigmatized as 'bad') is PERFECTLY logical, in certain kinds of circumstances. If a person is causing trouble, you throw them out of the pub (that's what bouncers are for) -- that's discrimination. If you're a practicing Baptist, good luck joining the Catholic church (again, discrimination). Which set of clothes did you put on this morning -- over which others? Discrimination. Could I as a white joint the Nation of Islam? Probably not...again, discrimination. Discrimination is not only NOT bad and indeed permissible, but absolutely CALLED FOR, under certain circumstances. Tolerance is not always good, just as intolerance is not always bad. It's always circumstantial, and case-by-case...and I'm only sorry, Mary, that you chose the oh-so-easy, rubber-stamp and utterly WRONG approach of broadbrushing yet another entire concept, just because political correctness has made it easy to do so, and because you think no one will dare directly challenge the notion -- and we'll just 'shame them away' if they do, right? Well...it ain't happening. You really do need to become less cliche'd and more of a thinker. Take it as constructive criticism, because that's how I mean it.
IrishAndProud | Sep 20, 2010, 09:37 PM EDT
I don't like seeing anyone in abject poverty any more than any other caring person (I sponsor a child overseas, myself) -- but folks, no nation can just let themselves be overrun with a foreign people who do not assimilate, do not contribute, and who further tax a system that's already facing financial collapse and cannot affort it. Deportations, like they're already doing in France, also need to happen in Ireland -- and that's not doing something just to be 'mean' but for national survival. Tough decisions have to be made here, folks...and Ireland (and the USA, for that matter, with its massive illegal alien problem) cannot just keep putting it off. These are serious matters that need serious attention, NOW. Our countries cannot -- I repeat, CANNOT -- keep going as they are and have been (turning a blind eye to massive influxes of foreigners). Deportation is in fact a solution. Saying 'You can't do that! How cruel!" is NOT a solution; it's just being a cheerleader of the unsustainable status-quo, for purely emotional reasons. And that is NOT an option. Oh, and lest anyone accuse me of never having interacted with the Gypsies in Ireland -- I have. I've been panhandled to (in Derry City), and I've heard it directly from business employees, in Donegal: they shoplift and steal, and you have to keep a close eye on them whenever they're in the store. My question is, what in the world are they even doing in Ireland, at all? THEY...SHOULD...NOT...EVEN...BE...THERE.
maloney | Sep 20, 2010, 09:29 PM EDT
3 posters are bigots out of 12. 2 of the 3 love to bad mouth Americans for not liking muslims. Do as you say not as you do. what were the words? Racist bigot pig hater. What do you 2 think of the Jewish people?
lostgold | Sep 20, 2010, 07:54 PM EDT
The Roma people originally came from India.Their real ethnic names and language point in this direction. They originaly started to migrate around the time of Christ as a result of war from the province of Bengal. This is a problem for the state of India to bring these people back home
killowen | Sep 20, 2010, 06:14 PM EDT
Roma seems to be the lowest form of human that exist is what I'm told. Lovers of such need to invite them home - its the only way to educate fools about a plague that keeps on giving. France is spot on - return them to their garbage dump homes.
LinLinisme | Sep 20, 2010, 04:58 PM EDT
There are wonderful Roma people and some not so wonderful. Every country and culture is like this. On a one-to-one basis--the Roma are just a good and bad as any other culture. I like or dislike people for who that particular person is and how the treat me.
eileenkny | Sep 20, 2010, 04:31 PM EDT
The first 2 commenters got it backwards-Ms. Brouder doesn't hate the Roma people. She's shining a light on those who do and showing why the hatred is based on a lie. Why can't people just live and let live?
Conor86 | Sep 20, 2010, 03:05 PM EDT
Why delete my previous comment? I am entitled to an opinion aren't i?
jakeleg | Sep 20, 2010, 02:55 PM EDT
I understand gypsies doing what the can to survive,at least they are quiet and aren't killing each other like some people in Cincinnati
bunchesofun | Sep 20, 2010, 11:55 AM EDT
Our adopted son is Roma. His birth family live in abject poverty. We try and help them some during the year but know it is never enough. Roma (at least in Ukraine) are targeted by the police and very much discriminated against.
Ajreaper | Sep 20, 2010, 10:03 AM EDT
It is a sad state of affairs but I am curious will Irish Central writers take France to task for deporting these people as they have AZ new immigration law, SB 1070? I suppose it's just much more politically correct to hammer things "American" these days. I eagerly await the attacks on the French policy.
IRISHKNIGHT110 | Sep 20, 2010, 09:39 AM EDT
I totally agree
Portia777 | Sep 20, 2010, 09:27 AM EDT
it may interest some people to know the origins of the Roma. Spell the name backwards and you get amor meaning love. These people were the ones enslaved for practicing the religion of Love. They were murdered by the Church of Rome in huge numbers.they were enslaved by the elite. But above all their way of life was scorned. Moving around as many wandering tribes did in olden days. This is not a crime by the way. The Roma are free spirits, not trapped like those who "own "homes. The hatred for the Roma lies in the collective consciousness and that is why the man could not explain his hatred for them. It is in the memory cells of his being passed down from generation to generation- and the fact that he does not know why he dislikes them really, explains it all. When I was made homeless in Ireland in secret court, the only people who offered me a roof and food for my children and myself were the gypsies and for that i am eternally grateful.
maloney | Sep 20, 2010, 09:19 AM EDT
You put down Americans for not trusting muslims, yet you hate on "Gypos" who just want to live, not kill & blow things up. Wonderful reasoning. Shame on you jas.
Dublinjas | Sep 20, 2010, 08:40 AM EDT
I hope you end your days surrounded by Roma