Irelands Census 2011 and Catholicism - the demise of organized religion in Ireland
By: Paddy Duffy | Published Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 6:46 PM | Updated Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 6:46 PM
Read more: The Irish are fast losing their religion say experts On Sunday, 10th April the people of Ireland will fill in their census forms under wildly different circumstances than when they last did so in 2006. But aside from the inevitable stark figures surrounding employment and the people who’ve had to leave the country to get it, there is another question that will also speak volumes: the question on religion.
Apart from the usual campaigns to get Jedi Knight or Pastafarianism officially on the books, or this year in particular augment the number of people who claim no religion, this year’s religion statistics will be a crucial chapter in an intriguing story.
In 1981, when priests were still more feared than the guards, the percentage of Roman Catholic people in Ireland was 93%. In 1991, a couple of years before my first communion, the figure was 91.6%. By 2002, around the time our school chaplain conducted our catechism-heavy Leaving Cert religion class, that was down to 88.4% and by 2006 it was down again to 86.8%. Now granted, the physical numbers of people self-identifying as Catholic has actually gone up along with the population, but that may be coming to an end.
First of all, in the same thirty year stretch that self-identifying Catholics went down by 6%, the amount of people claiming no religion quadrupled. Secondly, what the figures don’t account for is the amount of nominal Catholics, those who go to mass at Easter or Christmas and other such events but otherwise wouldn’t attend religiously. As it were. It’s those people that will likely signal a watershed moment in Irish life. For while the changes in Ireland’s economic structure have been noisy and tumultuous, a much more quiet social revolution has been building steam over the last few years, and it’ll come to a head soon.
Back in 2006, I wouldn’t have dreamt of putting down anything other than Roman Catholic on the census form. Now, there’s no way in Hades I’d tick that box. In 2006 I was happy to belong to the broad church, as it were, comfortable with the idea that mass was the way I demonstrated faith even if I personally disagreed with large swathes of Catholic doctrine, focusing more on the spirit rather than the letter of the law. Five years later, a combination of the deplorable revelations of the Murphy and Ryan reports and general exasperation at the Church’s increasingly insane intransigence eventually made me give up. I’m hardly the only one.
If as I suspect the number of people identifying as Catholics drops quite sharply in this census (or indeed the one after) that in itself will be significant, but more significant still will be the way that bears out in real life. A great many social events in Ireland still revolve around the Church, like baptisms, communions and confirmations. A lot of people who aren’t ardent mass-goers still attend these events, either through social convention, a residual sense of duty, keeping up appearances or just wanting a quiet life. More and more, they’re treated as pageants with an hour-long sit surrounded by stained glass attached anyway. Priests may disapprove of that, but so weak is their bargaining position nowadays, they can hardly turn down the business. But what happens when people eventually decide they won’t go through the pseudo-religious motions anymore, especially people of my generation who’ll likely be having the majority of their kids in the next decade or so? That answer to the question will depend on education.
The Church doesn’t just hold a lot of the cards in terms of social functions; it also controls the vast, vast majority of primary school administration. If you apply to be a teacher in a primary school a priest will be on the interviewing panel, and if you want to send your child to that school then communion and confirmation prep will form a large proportion of their second and sixth class, with a healthy dose of religion thrown in all the other years. If you’re not comfortable with that, your options aren’t exactly extensive.
In certain situations the Church seem willing to relinquish that control and if they do, like the census figures themselves, the attendance at religious rituals not really adhered to will slide gradually but noticeably, as indeed is proper. But if the Church doesn’t move quickly enough, or far enough, then a new generation of non-believers who have no allegiance to Catholicism, aren’t afraid to say as much and not inclined to pass it on will not be slow to question the absurdity of the status quo. The census on the 10th April is, in one form or another, likely to prompt a High Noon that’s been a long time coming. Thank God for that.
Read more: The Irish are fast losing their religion say experts
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.mariaber63 | Mar 29, 2012, 10:18 AM EDT
The census results are out and there's no sharp decline in Catholicism. 84% of Irish people are Roman Catholic. In spite of attempts in some quarters to paint of picture of a massive decline in Catholicism, this obviously isn't the case. There's a small vocal group of people who subscribe to atheism, but they are still very much in the minority.I hope the census results will help in any decisions re social policy.
Barry | Mar 10, 2012, 12:46 PM EST
I agree with JohnTobin - this is Catholic Church bashing and the author is obviously biased. His whole article is based on the premise that the decline in religious observance is a good thing. But why? As for the abuse scandals in the Church: nobody can deny the awfulness of what went on but this doesn't mean all priests are paedophiles. And, if you ask me, a lot of Catholics nowadays are only using the abuse issue as an excuse not to go to Mass and follow the Church's teachings, which require a little discipline and self-control - qualities lacking in many younger Irish people nowadays. And, by the way, I'm not a regular Mass-goer myself, but I still realise that religion and spirituality have a role to play in life.
ciaradexy | Jan 14, 2012, 09:52 AM EST
John, this isnt catholic church bashing. This is just how it is in ireland. Irish people are thinking for themselves and are realising that religion and God is an elaborate hoax.
JOHNTOBIN | Jul 12, 2011, 06:34 AM EDT
It gets rather tiresome this continual bashing of the Catholic Church and Faith bv Irish Central.
jacersagain | Apr 14, 2011, 08:39 PM EDT
@RedBranch – Thank you for kind invite to climb the Reek but, nah, I don’t think so for this year. I might go to Glastonbury, UK this summer... The Glastonbury Pilgrimage has been cancelled by the organisers for this year on the grounds that it will be too expensive – petrol, gas or diesel-wise – for anyone to undertake it. I hope to prove them wrong, even if I have to hire a donkey or walk it. Seewww(dot)glastonburypilgrimage(dot)cim – (pardon deliberate mistypos). Read all the links on the site for fascinating info and stuff! All faiths and none welcome in Glastonbury. Do visit the website - and Glastonbury!
jacersagain | Apr 14, 2011, 08:33 PM EDT
@RedBranch – Thank you for kind invite to climb the Reek but nah, I don’t think so for this year. I might go to Glastonbury, UK... The Glastonbury Pilgrimage has been cancelled by the organisers for this year on the grounds that it will be too expensive – petrol, gas or diesel-wise – for anyone to undertake it. I hope to prove them wrong, even if I have to hire a donkey. See www(dot)glastonburypilgrimage(dot)com – read all the links for fascinating info and stuff. It's tradition is about 2000 yrs old. All faiths and none are welcome in Glastonbury - even druidic.
jacersagain | Apr 14, 2011, 08:01 PM EDT
jamieLM should know, if he/she ever read even snatches of religious history, that recognition of a Superior Being by the earliest of humans was the beginning of true religion (Sun-god, Moon-god, Earth god, Totem god, Buddha god – always a ‘God’, a Superior Entity above humans and animals). Abraham and Moses were the most prominently historical people to encounter God directly. From their sect of religion (Jews), Jesus Christ emerged as the Son of God, the Messiah - the Saviour - promised by God to the Jews and, through them, to all mankind. From the Son of God emerged the one, catholic, universal, true religion. After Abraham, Moses and Christ there came the founders of all false religions thereafter – Islam, Mormon etc. There is only ONE true religion, that given by God directly to us all on planet Earth, through the birth of His Son – one, true, holy, catholic and apostolic church. If one chooses not to be part of that church, that is one’s right to choose - and to lose its immensely satisfying spiritual benefits. In the spirit of Christianity, I go tell you now that is the truth. Now I invite you to be apostolic and to go and tell everyone too that the Kingdom of God has arrived. And be a part of it.
jamieLM | Apr 13, 2011, 10:34 AM EDT
Which religion doesn't think they are the "one true religion?" Every religion thinks that only THEY have the right to claim that title. The world is full of people who think they are members of the "one true religion" and that they have God, Buddha, whoever, on their side.
RedBranch | Apr 12, 2011, 04:04 PM EDT
@jacersagain Good story ' amongst the ruins of Monasterboice'. For a similar experience, but with a human component, climb The Reek in July, that goes back 1000 years, perhaps more. See you there?
Kilsally | Apr 12, 2011, 01:46 PM EDT
On a pedantic point - The Republic of Ireland census day is Sunday 10th April. The Northern Ireland census was the same as the other UK regions with census day on Sunday 28th March!
Gearoid4 | Apr 12, 2011, 01:36 PM EDT
@unconvinced, I have no intention of getting out of the Church that Christ founded. I don't need to be reminded of the grievous sins caused by some of her members in clerical garb. The first generation of apostles contained it's fair share of sinners whose various weaknesses were exposed at various stages e.g Paul was an ex-persecutor of Christians, Peter denied that he knew Our Lord 3 times after He was arrested. We are all in need of grace from above to overcome our sinful natures. The Church will experience purgation which will be painful and necessary.
unconvinced | Apr 12, 2011, 08:57 AM EDT
Get out of the RC church , its taking you all to hell anyway
mimimcd | Apr 06, 2011, 11:19 PM EDT
o'gollaher, how does one get so mixed up on what true catholic ism really is? for those born after 1950 and/or have not been taught or shown what we're all about and the way our enemies have lulled most to sleep concerning the tenants of our faith, please...search out the encyclicals of the church for the soul-saving info they provide. go back to tradition..and you'll find everything you will ever need for living in todays world. as for your comments regarding america...that's the problem over here...the only one, true religion that will save you was not what we were founded on. we were founded on freedom of religion and the il luminated 'god' within, which is the cause of the worlds demise, as history and the present show us. without Gods' Grace...within His Traditional Church you cannot have true life within you and all that you attempt to build...whether within yourself or in a society is doomed to failure without Him guiding and sustaining you. most are prideful people and will not/can not agree with this fact and, as we know, pride is the ol' boys' favorite, most useful tool...it leads to so many other things. please.... read anything prior to 1960. Pope Leo's words,experiences, and why the St. Michael prayer was developed. compare the traditional with the cur rent, it's an eye-opener and a journey that must be made.
mimimcd | Apr 06, 2011, 10:03 PM EDT
hi jacer, good to see a good catholic defending the faith...your recent post shows rightful charity concerning ecumanism. we have lots in common.. sometimes one must shout the truth from the rooftops to be heard over the lies and coverups disguising themselves as truth or wisdom...wolves in sheeps' clothing so to speak.
mimimcd | Apr 06, 2011, 09:42 PM EDT
hi jacers, nicee to see that you have the true catholic backbone when you need to defend our true religion from those who believe the muck coming from VII.. so why was it so hard for you to see that i was rightfully upset when prevented from stating catholic facts by those in charge of this site? i did not post www's, only info such as the ALTA VENDITA, FREEMASONRY, LA SALETTE, OR HOLY FAMILY MONASTERY FOR THOSE INTERESTED INFO LEARNING MORE ABOUT THE TRUTHS THAT HOLD US TOGETHER AND THE ENEMIES WE HAVE IN COMMON...IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOUR ENEMIES ARE AND WHAT THE WAR GAME IS....HOW DO YOU RECOGNIZE AND PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR ETERNAL SOUL?
jacersagain | Apr 03, 2011, 04:17 PM EDT
Pis* off Golom O'Gollaher with your 'mormon' tripe. Or else be welcomed back into the fold of True Christian Catholicism. Around 1830, Joe Smith bunged into what Mohammed bunged into. Only power and money was their aim. The True Christian has none of these except for the power of God and His crucified Son.
OGollaher | Apr 03, 2011, 03:15 PM EDT
Sad - It seems that Irish are slowly abandoning the Church for mostly the wrong reasons, i.e. a lack of faith in general. Although my Irish ancestors were Catholic (O'Gallagher, you know), most of the American Gollahers have been members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ('Mormon') since said church was founded in America in the 1830s. Here, at least, 'Mormons' and Catholics have forged a social, political and even theological bond that is unique and most satisfying. For me, especially. If you must abandon the Catholic church for whatever personal reasons, at least keep your faith alive in Jesus Christ through some other communal faith that may sustain you and yours; preferably one which will respect the historical greatness of the Catholic Church, despite its' seeming flaws. Your ancestors put a lot of time and energy into their faith, and are the reason you have such freedoms to decide for yourself today.
jacersagain | Apr 03, 2011, 12:49 PM EDT
No mimi – it appears that Irish Central’s IT systems are set up to NOT post any posts that contain website addresses. That is why you get the message ‘Comment has been sent’ (but not posted). This is a measure seemingly put in place to stop spammers, no reflection on YOU or your posts; don’t get paranoid about it. It is a pity that ICentral’s IT Dept has had to do this. Many honest posters here would welcome that freedom again. Thanks for the invite to email you but since you SHOUT a lot, I won’t avail of yr invite. FYI – I am posting this again as my original post was not accepted because it used ‘banned’ letters! ;)
jacersagain | Apr 03, 2011, 12:46 PM EDT
No mimi – it appears that Irish Central’s IT systems are set up to NOT post any posts that contain http or www addresses. That is why you get the message ‘Comment has been sent’ (but not posted). This is a measure seemingly put in place to stop spammers, no reflection on YOU or your posts; don’t get paranoid about it. It is a pity that ICentral’s IT Dept has had to do this. Many honest posters here would welcome that freedom again. Thanks for the invite to email you but since you SHOUT a lot, I won’t avail of yr kind invite.
mimimcd | Apr 03, 2011, 12:24 PM EDT
SO WHY DID YOU JUST REMOVE THE PREVIOUS ONE I SENT WITH MY EMAIL ADDRESS FOR ALL TO CONTACT ME WITH THE CATHOLIC INFO I TRIED TO PRESENT? ANYONE INTERESTED IN VALUALBE CATHOLIC INFO BEING SURPRESSED, PLEASE EMAIL MIMI7114711@YAHOO.COM
mimimcd | Apr 03, 2011, 12:21 PM EDT
HOW ABOUT THAT....THAT WAS POSTED INSTANTLY...WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU SINCE JOINING THE EU....COMMUNIST CONTROL OF WHAT'S POSTED? OBVIOUSLY, OR YOU WOULD HAVE POSTED THE VALUABLE CATHOLIC INFO I SENT!
mimimcd | Apr 03, 2011, 12:17 PM EDT
WHERE'S MY COMMENT.....BEING EDITED BECAUSE IT SPELLS OUT AND DIRECTS PEOPLE TO THE TRUTH?!!! ANYONE OUT THERE WHO WOULD LIKE TO TALK MORE ABOUT TRUE CATHOLICISM AND YOUR POSTS HERE WITH SOMEONE OF FULL IRISH HERITAGE IN THE U.S. (WHO WOULD LOVE TO COME HOME) EMAIL ME AT MIMI7114711@YAHOO.COM YOURS IN JMJ
jacersagain | Apr 03, 2011, 11:02 AM EDT
(...more) I realised, with a quiet and utmost shocking humility, as we two from two different ends of our planet stood on the same open ground, surrounded by the ruins of a once magnificent Irish monastery, that old Jay saw what I had failed to see as we two walked amongst the ruins... that Catholicism, of both Irish and Australian kinds, was still around with us there, a thousand years after the demise of the monastery. Its ruins are still standing. Its altar place is still to be found, its Holy Communion rail’s foundations are still to be seen. Its round Lavabo structure is still intact. It is remarkable that an Australian Catholic visiting Monasterboice should have being pointing it all out to me, a native Dublin Catholic. >>> No matter what this latest Irish Census’ statistics say, a thousand years from now the celebration by Irish Catholics of the same sacrifice of Christ as was celebrated on Monasterboice’s altars eons ago and that of its descendant Irish Catholics concelebrating with their celebrations, will be still celebrated, even if it's amongst ruins like me and Jay were, walking amongst Monasterboice’s structural ruins that day. They will still be around over a thousand years from now after all those who attack Catholicism today are long dead. I am privileged to have learned from Jay, the ordinary family Australian man; Jay ‘Lavabo’ed’ me that day without his knowing so. I hope Mr. Duffy and all lapsed and lapsing Catholics will be similarly ‘Lavabo’ed’ by someone as ordinary as tommymccarthy or Gearoid4, or as ordinary as Jay, if you are lucky enough to meet him in Australia. That is, barring tragedies of a scale similar to Japan’s earthquake, tsunami and nuclear events.
jacersagain | Apr 03, 2011, 10:58 AM EDT
(...more) As Jay’s experienced builder’s eyes were spanning around the ruins of the old Catholic Church, he turned to me, shouting as he pointed to a stone-marked place “Hey (jacers)... There is where the altar was! That’s where Consecrations took place. ... And that there is where Holy Communion was made by the people – see the footings of the altar rails here?” he said, trotting (in the way that an old man does) over to and excitedly pointing at some ground-bedded stones laid out in a straight line in front of the rectangular altar place. Both of us had received Holy Communion at Mass earlier that day. I was amazed that he could show and point out to me, a native Irish Dublin Catholic who has visited and enjoyed being amongst the ruins of Monasterboice a few times, where others of the Catholic faith, over a thousand years before us two, had partaken of exactly the same as we had partaken of earlier that day. (More...)
jacersagain | Apr 03, 2011, 10:56 AM EDT
On this Census topic by Paddy Duffy I tell an aside, yet relevant bit of a story... A few years ago, I had an extraordinary experience. An Australian Catholic man (I’ll call him Jay in this true story) was visiting Ireland for a special occasion. I'd met Jay only once before, in Australia. While visiting in Ireland for this occasion, he expressed to me an interest to visit a really old Catholic, Irish Church place. So I took him to visit the ruins of a monastery far north of me dear Dublin city, to a place in Co. Louth called Monasterboice (google that name, or google ‘St. Buithe’ for more info. It is very popular with tourists, city-escapers and the place’s own area locals for some odd reason, and also an archeologically important site in Ireland). On the day, it turned out that we were the only two people there at the time we dropped in. All was quiet, except for some birds chirruping, the sound of a little wind and our own feet crunching on pebbles in the quietness of the countryside. Though it was a cold winter’s day, the sun was shining warmly and we didn’t need our jackets. Jay is an ordinary family man, a retired Builder and as he looked around the part-remaining standing walls of the ruined monastery, he was able to see the walls of what was formerly a large church, something I’d never noticed before in the huge, stoned complex of this former monastery. I had been excited to direct him to the perfectly formed and still beautifully intact structure known as the Lavabo until he pointed out other structures to me (More...)
jacersagain | Apr 03, 2011, 10:52 AM EDT
Sorry eiriamach but yr posts are getting tiresome on this topic, seeming to be frantically rooting around for reasons to support Paddy Duffy’s public defection from the Church and at the same time throwing discreditable reasons on those who proclaim loyalty to our Church in the face of adversity. The Church has changed throughout all of its centuries and will continue to change but not one of those changes will impact on the central tenet of its ‘raison d’être’. If people will bear with my next posts, I hopefully will prove why.
JimMcGarity | Apr 02, 2011, 07:46 PM EDT
It is a changing world. And not for the better. Look around, people just dont have any respect for each other anymore. So do be surprised.
eiriamach | Apr 02, 2011, 06:34 PM EDT
Jacers, "systemic" means pervasive, existing throughout the whole structure. Surely there have been and still are many 'good' priests. But they take oaths of obedience to the Holy See; in consequence, they remain silent about the felonies of their colleague priests. The Vatican still refuses to tell priests to give any and all evidence of clerical crimes to civil authorities. It still insists on being a law unto itself, above all just laws enacted by civil society. Christ gave no warrant for such behavior. Unequivocally good priests work to reform this system, to make it less autocratic, to open it to scrutiny and democratic processes. The people of God deserve no less, and no other structure will long survive. Listen to the voices calling for change; look at the handwriting on the wall. And yes, you do engage in a strategy of insults and threats to deflect the impact of the truth. You write, "Catholics who deny the RCC and its mission, risk allowing Satan to perpetuate his evil work within the Church and being part of it," "eeejits like Paddy Duffy above who are so swamped by populist fashion that they can’t see the wood for the trees," and "unfounded hysteria." Others adopt a posture of superiority: "This gent Newrone should be more pitted [a Freudian slip for 'pitied'?] than laugh't at." Insults, ad hominems, red herrings, all unresponsive to the question at issue: how to change a corrupt system?
glorybe1929 | Apr 02, 2011, 05:43 PM EDT
Christ's message is simple. Either HE invites you to belong to Him and you say "Yes to Him" or you don't. Nothing the RCC can say can change that FACT. He calls you...you don't call HIM!
glorybe1929 | Apr 02, 2011, 05:40 PM EDT
Don't lose Jesus Christ because of an Institution. Keep the BabyJesus and throw out the putrid water HEis being bathed in.
glorybe1929 | Apr 02, 2011, 05:38 PM EDT
yOUR PRAYERS ARE ALWAYS HEARD BY GOD AS LONG AS THEY ARE SINCERE AND LOVING, NO MATTER WHAT CHURCH YOU GO TO, EVEN THE rcc. mY PRAYERS WERE NOT WASTED BECAUSE EVIL EXISTED IN THE RCC. EVIL HAS ALWAYS BEEN WITH US. IF EVIL PLAYS OUT IT'S SCHEMES, IT WILL NOT HAVE A PRAYER TO GOD.
glorybe1929 | Apr 02, 2011, 05:32 PM EDT
cHRIST IS NO MORE IN THEROMAN cATHOLIC cHURCH THAN HE IS IN HELL. cHRIST LIVES IN THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO LOVE, HONOR, AND SERVE HIM . WHO HAVE A DAILY RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM..
glorybe1929 | Apr 02, 2011, 05:27 PM EDT
jacersagin....who cares what was on the sheet of paper, what really ciounts is what is in your Heart and God knows your heart. Who wants to be the one who has driven the "get-a-way car", in a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY ??Not me.. I'm ouT since 2001. God is happy I useD the mind HE gave me!
glorybe1929 | Apr 02, 2011, 05:22 PM EDT
Praise the Lord! Catholics do have minds of their own. I thought they had all been generationally brain washed by the RCC. Good for them for finally coming to their senses.
jacersagain | Apr 02, 2011, 04:54 PM EDT
(...more) My ‘puzzled’ remarks on yr post were flippant, in case you didn’t notice - showing how your post of 08.07pm EDT was so badly written that it was capable of two interpretations (other than the ones you intended, which were undeservedly viciously repeated in your last two posts):- (i) that Paddy Duffy was publishing his ‘denial’ of Christ’s presence in the Catholic Church in the fashion of today and (ii) that your apparent accusation that systemic failure by some leaders of the Church should be reflected on those who remain loyal to the Church was wrong and deserved to be defended and rejected. eiriamach, you can ‘éirigh amach as anois’ and be ‘done here’ now. Your normally interesting posts are sadly beginning to border on unfounded hysteria.
jacersagain | Apr 02, 2011, 04:46 PM EDT
eiriamach...Oh no you don’t get away being ‘done here’ - your last posts are so far off the essence of my posts and those of others that they need truthful correction. My posts directly addressed Mr. Duffy’s article where he stated quite clearly that the revelations of the Murphy and Ryan (MnR) reports eventually made him give up Catholicism and therefore he would not declare himself to be Catholic on the Census form. I argued in response to that (no insults anywhere), saying that while he has the right to choose to disclaim Catholicism, I felt he was wrong to be doing so, that even as a lapsed Catholic, he was still a baptised and confirmed Catholic and that he should write that on the Census form. It would be an untruth if he did otherwise (he does have a Catholic Baptismal Cert somewhere). That is the essence of my posts in response to Paddy’s article and posts by others. Disgust such as we all feel over the revelations of the MnR reports is not a good enough reason to abandon the Catholic Faith, indeed it is a cause for all RCC members to stand up for its true purpose and I challenged Mr. Duffy and others on that being a poor excuse. Our Catholic faith is much stronger than the evil perpetrated by some priests 20-40 yrs ago and will survive it. (More...)
tommymccarthy | Apr 02, 2011, 03:27 PM EDT
Mr Duffy with your comment's you should hang your head in shame,you are that kind of gent that will be asking for a Priest on your death bed,your parents will turn in their grave because of the thing that you have said about the Church may god forgive you
eiriamach | Apr 02, 2011, 12:33 PM EDT
Jacersagain, I'm sorry if my 8:07 PM post was so unclear that you took it to apply to Duffy. No, I meant it to apply to you, Gearoid4, tommymccarthy, and Jitpring, all of whom had nothing relevant to say about the article above and protested it instead. I meant to emphasize Christ's opening words, "I tell you the TRUTH [the painful truth about YOURSELF, and you must be able to deal with such harsh truths]." Christ's prediction was accurate even though Peter was insulted by it and protested Christ's assessment of him as weak and disloyal--as, in effect, a failure. Duffy does not need this lesson since he apparently knows how to tell the truth and to deal with unpleasant, painful truths. But those who insult him and who insult those of us who share his concerns do need the lesson. Enough said. I'm done here.
eiriamach | Apr 02, 2011, 12:11 PM EDT
Jacersagain, I wrote nothing about your FAITH being wrong, only about the garrulous defensiveness that reveals your insecurity about the moral status of current church leadership. WHY do you find it necessary to attack, threaten, and repeatedly insult those who are conscience bound not to identify themselves publicly as Catholic or to support RCC politics? Their behavior is no offense against Christ but quite the opposite. It doesn't jeopardize their souls; it strengthens them in the work of reform (dealing with truth). Many people have said as much as Duffy or more. Most say it in hope of seeing renewal by clerics, in hope of priests resolving to deal with the truth, to repent of their complicity in a code of silence, and to change the structures that facilitate both abuse and anti-democratic assaults in the political forum: "But if the Church doesn’t move quickly enough, or far enough, then a new generation of non-believers who have no allegiance to Catholicism, aren’t afraid to say as much and not inclined to pass it on will not be slow to question the absurdity of the status quo." As a prediction, this statement is apropos. If you were listening for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, you would be listening precisely to this kind of statement. Refusing to listen and blustering out insults instead is not a defensible behavior and certainly not what Christ trained Peter to do.
jacersagain | Apr 02, 2011, 06:24 AM EDT
(..more) The other puzzling thing that eiriamach’s post appears to throw in is that people like me, tommymcarthy, Gearoid4 and others are wrong to continue to support and believe in a Church which has been invaded by Satan and his cronies, described by none other than our leader, Pope Benedict XVI as being ‘filth’. We are not a bit defensive of Satan’s evil within our Church; indeed we are unashamedly to the forefront of defending what the Church really is about, defending its good priests and will continue to do so, with God’s blessings and support gained through daily prayer. As eiriamach and Newrone should know, there is nothing whatsoever self-delusional about that. We are all duty bound by Christ’s second commandment to forgive the sinner as we ourselves hope to be forgiven for our transgressions through the power of the Sacrament of Penance. I'd suggest that those Catholics who deny the Roman Catholic Church and its mission, risk allowing Satan to perpetuate his evil work within the Church and being part of it. It is easier to win the battle from within.
jacersagain | Apr 02, 2011, 06:19 AM EDT
eiriamach’s comment at 08.07pm EDT yesterday is puzzling. On the one hand it appears directed at the likes of Paddy Duffy who beat the fashionable media-inspired drum (like Paddy’s own article above), who publicly deny being a Catholic when they have already been baptised and confirmed as such. If people choose to become lapsed Catholics, then that is their choice but it is no excuse for them to rubbish those of us who choose to remain loyal to the church founded by Christ. Even lapsed Catholics are still Catholics and if one chooses to tick a box on the Census form saying otherwise, then one is entering an untruth on the form and denying Christ’s Church with that tick. On the other hand..(More...)
Pittsburghkid | Apr 01, 2011, 10:18 PM EDT
The Muslims aren't, and they intend to fill the void in Ireland. Then you will wish the Roman Catholic Church was in control of Ireland.
sirpeter | Apr 01, 2011, 10:14 PM EDT
I'm in the Bible Belt here.
eiriamach | Apr 01, 2011, 08:07 PM EDT
Matthew 26:34: "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.'" Christ practiced truth-telling not only about Pharisees but also about his own friends. And before he entrusted the church to his friends, he made sure that they could deal with the truth, however insulting, however devastating they found it. Seeing the denial going on here about serious, systemic failings in church leadership and about the sincerity of Duffy and the people commenting on his article, I'd guess that Christ would be disappointed in the ability of the self-proclaimed IC disciples to recognize, accept, and learn from some plain sociological truths. But Christ did not give up on Peter when Peter suffered from insecurity and self-delusion, so maybe there's hope for the IC Peter wanna-be's also.
Gearoid4 | Apr 01, 2011, 03:06 PM EDT
I heartily concur with Tommy and Jacersagain. The Catholic Faith is a great pearl that should be treasured and not shunned. I am also glad to be part of the Universal Church founded by Jesus Christ. Pearse Brosnan in one of the recent IC reports conveyed that he felt the same way.
tommymccarthy | Apr 01, 2011, 06:57 AM EDT
thank you for that kind post jacersagain .I am just home from church as myself and family attend trying to offer up our prayers during Lent to help poor people like MR. Duffy to try and bring him back into the faith.This gent Newrone should be more pitted than laugh't at. GOD BLESS YOU JACERSAGAIN
Newrone | Mar 31, 2011, 09:38 PM EDT
Don't know how anyone can seriously "believe" all this nonsense about God, Christ, a single 2000-yo book written by who-knows-who, a fluffy holy "Ghost", virgins having babies, people floating ethereally up in the sky, others living in fire! Any alien intelligence unaware of this ideology & discovering it today would no doubt find it even more outrageously bizarre and far-fetched than pre-colonial African voodoo. Of course, as a kid growing up in Ireland, do you think I could mention that to anyone? Least of all the Parish priest?! He'd have had me exorcised! Instead of running his hands over my hair & feeling my knees. Yes, he was the scariest human being I knew.
jacersagain | Mar 31, 2011, 05:52 PM EDT
@ tommymcarthy – Erm, I don’t know where you live right now but the Irish Census form is NOT to be filled in until the evening/night of the 10th of April next. The Census is intended to be a statistical snapshot of the Republic of Ireland on that night – taken as you may be in the place where you are as the form is filled in. >>> Aside> I lived in Scotland for 2 yrs and know that Scottish Catholics, and Irish-Scottish Catholics like you, tommy, would put many Irish Catholics of today to shame over how they retain and practice the Catholic faith, feeling privileged to be blessed with the treasure of that universal (i.e. catholic) faith like you, your wife and like – whruuph - probably over a billion other RC Catholics around the world are. Long may we and our children have and treasure it. Our forefathers and foremothers knew enough about its treasures right through the Penal Times in Ireland to keep it alive under threat of death - and here today you have eeejits like Paddy Duffy above who are so swamped by populist fashion that they can’t see the wood for the trees, going on about it being the in-thing to do: reject Catholicism because of the big sins of a few in a global sense. It is so gob-smackingly beautiful to be a part of the Catholic faith, isn’t tommy? Christ is with you and your wife tommy, and I pray He will be with me and all of who are privileged not to be gob-smacked by popular journalism and RCC-bashing fashions of the day - privileged enough to see and remain true to Christ's Catholicism despite media and secular attacks on it, like Paddy-Knows-it-all Duffy above.
jacersagain | Mar 31, 2011, 04:45 PM EDT
@glorybe1929 – please prove your statement of today at 01.31PM EDT “The RCC is nothing but evil”. Wasn’t it the Apostles, those called by Jesus to spread His message and who without questioning upon His command to "Go tell everyone", that went on to found the RCC? I’ve visited the known tombs of most of the original Apostles – not one of those Apostles’ remains lies in a church other than that of the Roman Catholic Church. If anyone rubbishes the RCC, they also rubbish the Apostles of Christ and thereby risk, by unfounded comments, rubbishing Christ Himself.
tommymccarthy | Mar 31, 2011, 04:44 PM EDT
my people came from County Waterford i was born in Scotland brought up Roman Catholic still attend church and all my family attend church.Census i have filled it in myself and wife declared we are Roman Catholic on the census and proud to to be Roman Catholic
jacersagain | Mar 31, 2011, 04:26 PM EDT
Sorry! I should have written the name Paddy Duffy instead of Paddy McHugh... with huge apologies to all of the McHugh clan! :(
jacersagain | Mar 31, 2011, 04:17 PM EDT
Paddy McHugh above has clearly stated his reason for proposing to not ticking “Roman Catholic” in the box after the question on his Irish Census form on the night of April 10th next. That's ok, freedom of choice is his right. This he says he will do, despite being not only Baptised in the Catholic Church (probably without his full knowledge, though also probably in those times he renewed his Baptismal Vows as a young adult) but also Confirmed as a Catholic by his own choice about half his lifetime ago. The letters WWJS come to mind... how about Jesus saying “Eh, what now Patrick? You deny what you are - bound by those sacraments - to Me?” What would Paddy say in response to Jesus? Then maybe ask what Jesus would ask or say in response to Paddy's response. Then maybe ask what Paddy McHugh will do for the rest of his lifetime thinking about such a conversation, as will surely happen in the future.
glorybe1929 | Mar 31, 2011, 01:31 PM EDT
Jesus Christ is still Lord and no one should abandon HIM! If HE"S called you , you know it, no matter what anybody can tell you. The RCC is nothing but evil.
eiriamach | Mar 31, 2011, 01:25 PM EDT
In case anyone wants a comparison with the USA, according to CARA and Pew Religious Landscape data, 83.9% of US citizens who were raised Catholic reported their religion as still Catholic in 1973; in 1993, that number was 76.4%; in 2010, it was 68%, and the researchers estimate that "If the current rate of decline continues, the Catholic retention rate is expected to be 54% in 2050."
glorybe1929 | Mar 31, 2011, 01:23 PM EDT
Good idea , not allowing the RCC to do your thinking for you. You have reaped the rewards of your "do nothing for centuries" attitude.
barneyjo | Mar 30, 2011, 11:13 AM EDT
@eiriamach - hard to argue with your last assertion; in point of fact,I wont. Thank you for your "view of the world"
eiriamach | Mar 30, 2011, 06:24 AM EDT
barneyjo, it's part of me also. But I do not have the half-century or more it will take a reform movement to get the institution back on track. I haven't disowned anything except an inhumane political agenda disguised as the one-and-only "Truth." "Those who speak on their own seek their own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and there is nothing false in him." --John 7:18.
barneyjo | Mar 30, 2011, 02:58 AM EDT
@eiriamach - I wont disown something that is effectively "part" of myself!!
eiriamach | Mar 29, 2011, 08:17 PM EDT
I'd like to wish the best of luck to barneyjo and others who seem to have the youthful energy and strength of spirit to tackle reform of Roman Catholicism! I should not expect to live long enough to see change there; besides, my reform energy has been deployed elsewhere for 30 years, with occasional successes. During those years, I've drawn strength from several sources, including a form of Christianity that has had a liturgy in English since the days of the Tudor monarchs--and in the Irish language for three centuries. And out of that tradition I say to you who work on reform, "Go gcoinní síocháin Dé, a sháraíos an uile thuiscint, bhur gcroí agus bhur n-aigne in aithne agus i ngrá Dé, agus a Mhic Íosa Críost ár dTiarna; agus go raibh beannacht Dé Uilechumhachtaigh, an tAthair, an Mac, agus an Spiorad Naomh, in bhur measc agus go bhfana agaibh go buan." And don't let the Opus Dei / Pius X lurkers fret ye.
barneyjo | Mar 29, 2011, 07:48 PM EDT
@jitpring - you know, the thing that frightens me most about your post is that you actually believe what you have written!! YOu wear the mantle of Judge,Jury and Executioner with apparent ease!! If I didnt know any better, I'd guess there was a "FALSE PROPHET" in the vacinity!!
eiriamach | Mar 29, 2011, 06:46 PM EDT
Gearoid4, kreuz IS Catholic sponsored, written in the pope's native language, and gets high Internet traffic. If the Vatican disapproved of kreuz's messages, someone at the Vatican would say so: no one has. Articles and postings are brazenly anti-Semitic, homophobic, anti-democratic, etc. The photo gallery provides titillating images of the kinds of sex that the site's articles condemn as "perverted." It's a miniature version of the kinds of contradictions that world-wide Catholicism is (not)dealing with in the abuse scandals, though those who write the articles do not seem to realize their self-contradiction. I find it both sick and scary, but it is undeniably orthodox Catholicism, faithful to papal teachings, condemning the secularism it attributes to Vatican II while ignoring Christ's two great commandments. It's only somewhat further right politically than, for example, the Archdiocese of NY. As for sensitivity to problems within the church, its article "The Kinderschänderei" (violation of children) considers sexual abuse of children not a great crime: "Only in the case of the Church will it be blown up, to throw Catholics in the frying pan and make money from bringing down lax bishops." It seems to me that if Christ rejected the practice of politics by priests, shouldn't we?
barneyjo | Mar 29, 2011, 06:08 PM EDT
[contd] do you think for one moment that I enjoy seeing my church, one of the foundations of my existence, pilloried in such a way? This is our(my) church's cross; its Golgotha, and it is the ONLY way to renewal!!
barneyjo | Mar 29, 2011, 06:02 PM EDT
@Gearoid4 - I have come to the firm view that the Church, as it presently stands is not fit for purpose as a conduit for the message of Love that Christ bestowed on humanity. The endemic presence of gross inhumanity in the forms that have become apparent in the public domain are testemant to that. The actions of clergy at all levels within the church, across the world, and through the ages have laid bare the church in which I grew up as something other than it always pruported to be. The sheer scale and horror of the crimes committed against children is bad enough. What is just as bad in my view has been the litany of excuses,obfuscation and downright denial by the hierarchy of all of it. Add to that the fact that I now know that catholic clergy as part of their priestly formation were provided with a blunt instrument, referred to as "Mental Reservation" which has allowed them to skate around the many "inconvenient truths" that may never have come to light, had not the secular world taken the trouble to shine a light in so many dark corners in the first place
seanomelbourne | Mar 29, 2011, 05:57 PM EDT
"priests more feared than the guards" may sound a bit flippant and may or may not be true of the 80's But it was certainly true of the 50's and 60's parish priest's in some city and rural parishes acted like little potentates and were drunk on their power and their Powers.
Jitpring | Mar 29, 2011, 05:29 PM EDT
This is eternally sad, because you can multiply Duffy by millions upon millions of lost souls. Such is the fruit of the Second Vatican Council. This is what they've wrought. An unmitigated disaster. Millions upon millions of souls raining into Hell like snowflakes. If they'd only been taught authentic, unadulterated Catholic doctrine and not been given the vandalized Mass (i.e., the Novus Ordo), they may well have survived. If, like Duffy, you're about to become another casualty, if you're about to become yet another hellbound apostate conformed to the world and owned by its prince, go to audiosancto dot com and listen listen listen. Pax Dominum vobiscum.
Gearoid4 | Mar 29, 2011, 05:18 PM EDT
@eiriamach, Your description of a loony-toon website purportedly catholic sounds like a caricature of the worst of those on the extreme right. It is no way representative of the standard catholic blogosphere which admittedly does contain it's fair share of polemics from both right and left. Politics touches us all in some form and thus we cannot avoid clashes between them when some very important points of principle are at stake.
Nicomax | Mar 29, 2011, 01:14 PM EDT
Looks like it's time for a revision of the Irish Constitution. To save themselves extra work, just cut and paste the First Amendment of the US Constitution.
eiriamach | Mar 29, 2011, 10:02 AM EDT
Again I read in some comments below about anti-Catholic bias at IC. I have not seen bias. Do you mean that IC reports church statistics? All news services publish facts in the public interest, but ethical journalists do not invent the facts they publish. I suspect that people who think IC is anti-Catholic confuse religion with politics. That's understandable, with bishops so deeply entrenched in politics. But if you want a Catholic bias to your news, I suggest you visit the largest German language Catholic news service, kreuz, recently relocated to the US. It advocates restoring a Catholic monarchy, forcing "re-education" of homosexuals, ending sex education in schools, and dismantling human rights conventions and democratic institutions: "Even the simplest mind realizes that man can never live anywhere truly free, equal, and fraternal"-- the words of Dr. Johann Josef Dengler, in "I hate this democracy" (translated title). If you have some German or a translation plug-in for your browser, visit and compare it with IC. You might come to prefer a secular approach to a swastika-wrapped "cross" presented as "news." (While you're there, don't miss the lovely "Barbaric Viking" posters in the photo gallery.)
monaghanjack | Mar 29, 2011, 09:59 AM EDT
The behaviour of Roman Catholics towards other religions was the best thing for non-Catholics because it gave them the extra "UUMPH" to succeed elsewhere. The number of world-changing people who left Ireland because of this behaviour, encouraged by the Roman Catholic Church, is unbelievable. When will they wake up that what they fought for in 1916 against the British & signed away to Brussels without any complaint, is worth nothing. Meanwhile all of Europe is watching Ireland as if it had some incurable disease - GREED.
connemaraman | Mar 29, 2011, 09:47 AM EDT
as a connemaraman , havnt you yanks heard of letterfrack ? the magdeline laundries ? etc etc etc the sooner this church is wiped off the face of the earth the better , it is pure evil an how can anyone defend it , it new priests were abusing what did it do , it just moved them an the abuse went on somewhere else , the sooner they are gone forever the better an how they are still in our schools is criminal , so so many lives destroyed , evil !
yiyu146 | Mar 29, 2011, 08:53 AM EDT
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Gearoid4 | Mar 28, 2011, 09:11 PM EDT
@Barneyjo, Agreed. I did not in anyway want to play down the untold damage done by the criminal actions of certain members of the clergy. This cannot be underestimated and the violation of the most innocent and defenseless of the flock is an unspeakable evil. My main point being the alacrity with which bloggers and columnists in IC are posting daily stories that have a gleefully anti-catholic bias inherent in them. Without excusing the wrongs done by clergy in the past, I just wanted to point out that throwing the baby out with the bathwater may have negative consequences for society if positive influences are not waiting in the wings to replace it.
sirpeter | Mar 28, 2011, 07:20 PM EDT
Paddy..It's one hell of a thing to be flippant about. I was in my early twenty's in 1981.At that time in no way did young people fear priest's as much as the guards. I'm only trying to be fair to the majority of priests. Yes!! The priests held some sway in a parish.Maybe if it was a rural parish a bit more.But a priest was much more likely to put in a good word for a person then a bad word.Even if that person was a real trouble maker. To me to use the word "fear" in connection with priests is just not correct for the vast majority of Irish people in 1981. I would say the real power of the individual priest where you had cause to fear him if you got on the wrong side of him was been eroded by the late 50's.By the 60's onwards with television and rock and roll and things generally starting to become more open.The parish priest had to be alot more careful of what he said. By 1981 only the Church hierarchy had power in the state. The local priest might or might not be that popular in a parish,but that was down to the priest. People in general will do what THEY believe to be right regardless of what the priest says. Proof of this is in West Cork during the Black and Tan war. Every IRA man was excommunicated by the Bishop of Cork and Ross and those who gave them safe houses were too. Yet hundreds still did and thousands quietly supported the excommunicated. Paddy I'm a historian and it's my business to find out the truth in general about Irish history.Be it good or bad.I have a fair idea of the character of the Irish people and one of our most endearing qualities past on from generation to generation is been two-faced. As a people we had too.We sucked up to the landlord by day,but we maimed his cattle at night for unjust evictions.
barneyjo | Mar 28, 2011, 06:32 PM EDT
@Gearoid4 - "Some might wish for the demise of the church and religion in general" that might be true, but it still does not explain the horror and harm eminating from within the Church that has done far more damage than those described in your comment!!
PaddyDuffy | Mar 28, 2011, 03:10 PM EDT
Sirpeter, ultimately the point was meant to be flippant but the point was that priests held as much and in some cases more sway than the guards in 1981. I think you'd agree that many would turn a word in the head of even the nicest priest back then.
sirpeter | Mar 28, 2011, 02:43 PM EDT
"In 1981, when priests were still more feared than the guards" That just caught my eye when I was going to read the article.But I'm not wasting my time. Such bulls*it.Paddy in all fairness.If that's what you think.You know little or nothing about Ireland in 1981. Now stop your lies.Ordinary people had nothing to fear from these mostly nice guys.But cops are cops and as a motorist they are always people to fear.
Gearoid4 | Mar 28, 2011, 01:21 PM EDT
Well, the humanist\aetheist\secular(delete as required) fraternity within ICC do not miss an opportunity to take potshots at the Catholic Church both in Ireland and the US. But to quote the famous literary genius Mark Twain...''the reports of my death are greatly exaggerated...''. This can be applied to the situation of the Catholic Church in Ireland. I recognize that we have had to endure the harrowing nature of the abuse reports which have cast such a dark cloud over the church. But we should not fail to recognize the daily valiant work that our priests and religious carry out without looking for acclaim. Some might wish for the demise of the church and religion in general. But a soul-less secularism will replace the major gap left and this will bode ill for society in general