Why Irish Catholics are no different from Muslims
By: Tom Deignan | Published Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 8:40 AM | Updated Friday, September 9, 2011, 9:48 PM
Last Monday, George Marlin published an article in
The New York Post entitled “Catholics' lessons for U.S. Muslims.”
Marlin is an interesting thinker who writes often about overlooked aspects of Irish American and Catholic American history.
“In earlier times,” Marlin wrote on Monday, “tens of millions who came through
Ellis Island quickly embraced their new nation and what it stood for and refuted the charge that there was a conflict between their religious or ethnic loyalty and patriotism."
I have interviewed George Marlin in the past and found him to be genial and well-informed. So it is with respect that I disagree with his very charitable look back at the how the Irish and other Catholic immigrants assimilated.
In fact, it could be argued that Catholic efforts to assimilate into the American mainstream were more similar than different from current Muslim efforts.
I’d go so far as to say that the Irish took part in more so-called “un-American activities” than today’s immigrants. Imagine, for example, if 20,000 Middle Eastern immigrants congregated at
Madison Square Garden to rally for the cause of, say, Palestinian independence.
Well, that’s just what many New York Irish Catholics did in 1916 after the Easter Rising in
Dublin, which aimed to achieve Irish independence.
By 1917,
America entered into World War I alongside the Brits, much to the chagrin of Irish nationalists in America such as John Devoy. Indeed, some factions in the Irish community were more than willing to undermine America’s allies (the Brits) and ponder alliances with America’s enemies (the Germans) in the name of a free
Ireland.
This may have been a small slice of Irish America. But it is far too simplistic to suggest that Irish Americans in particular and immigrant Catholics in general came to the U.S. and forgot about their homelands. Not for nothing did President Woodrow Wilson lament “hyphenated Americans.” His comments may have been tinged with xenophobia, but Wilson was right on one thing: many ethnic Americans did have dual allegiances.
Even on the eve of World War II, Irish Catholic members of extremist groups such as the Christian Mobilizers found common ground with the Bund and other groups linked to
Hitler’s
Germany.
Then again, should we be so surprised? Seventy years before Devoy and so many Irish in America proved they were willing to negotiate with America’s enemies,
Galway native John Patrick Riley and about 200 other Irish and Catholic immigrants fought against America itself in the Mexican-American war.
Back then they were executed as traitors loyal to
Rome. Today, The Chieftains sing songs about the St. Patricio Brigade.
None of this changes the fact that a majority of Irish Catholics were willing to become patriotic Americans. Just as some immigrants were launching a crusade for Irish independence from U.S. soil, many others went off to fight alongside the Brits for their new nation.
As George Marlin notes: “During World War I, more than 1.1 million immigrant Catholics … joined the
US Armed Forces. More than 20 percent of the troops who served in the war were Church members, and many served with distinction. Col. ‘Wild Bill’ Donovan, who led the famed ‘
Fighting Irish’ 69th Regiment from
New York, was awarded the Medal of Honor.”
And yet, the very existence of a “Fighting Irish” regiment proves that ethnic allegiances were not set aside so easily. Imagine if today’s military allowed a “Fighting Dominican” or “Fighting Pakistani” brigade? And don’t give me this business that today’s immigrants don’t fight in the military. Check the names of those wounded and slain in
Iraq and
Afghanistan.
In the end, I would argue that while the Irish and other Catholics did embrace America, they also changed America, for the better. It might have been smart for Famine immigrants to convert in the face of 19th Century anti-Catholicism. But the Irish held onto their beliefs and eventually convinced Americans to accept Catholicism and other minority religions.
Immigrant union leaders, meanwhile, changed the way Americans thought about working conditions and – yes – nationalists figured out a way to harness Irish American power to bring peace to the homeland.
The Irish were the first large-scale immigrant group to do this. Despite what some say, I suspect they will not be the last.
42 Comments
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.Nicoletta | Sep 09, 2010, 08:20 AM EDT
Dear Tom, you simply don't get it. The Irish in America (or England, where many settled too!) are able to integrate whilst retaining their identity. Muslims from wherever are unable to do this. They insist on imposing their way of life on the indigent population. In parts of the UK with only a small percentage of Muslims - all school children can only have halal food at school. Barbaric Sharia law is incompatible with western society and yet goes on subversively. Polygamy is common, which accounts for the huge increase in birth rate in Muslim dominated areas. The liberal west is the greatest gift to radical Islam.
maloney | Sep 07, 2010, 10:22 PM EDT
Kill em all & let Allah sort em out.
islandgirl21 | Sep 07, 2010, 02:36 PM EDT
Irish and other Catholic immigrants ability to embrace America and perhaps change it was because the immigrants' religious and cultural beliefs were not alien or foreign to those already present in the United States. But Muslims will not be able convince Americans or any Westerners to accept Sharia law, honor killings, suicide bombings, beheadings, and attitudes of the dark ages in regards to the rights of woman and children.
Monsoonman | Sep 05, 2010, 12:38 PM EDT
Whats this victim mentality that seems to pervade the thinking here? I think some have riddeen it into an industry supported by the taxpayers, always looking for an "issue", to litigate over, or to get special treatment. How about getting past all of this and becoming self sufficient citizens who don't ask what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country? Now that would be refreshing to hear from the entitlement crowd....It would make JFK proud.
dolleanpatrice | Sep 04, 2010, 04:19 PM EDT
I see and undrestand just a wee bit more then some or perhaps. try being an irish african american catholic. it is always with feaar and mistrust america has greeted its immigrants but all to happy to have us do the heavy lifting and dirty work. still all and all not as bad as the British turning a blind eye during the famine that brought my great grandfather to these shores. before you saay every and all of anyone else please rrember those are the words used to descrie us as in "drunkand irishmen" understanding first last and always
maloney | Sep 02, 2010, 07:12 PM EDT
tom deignan...I'll not bother going item by item to show that you are frothy around the ears. Can you say sharia!! They also believe you must lie and deceive to get the trust of non-muslims to defeat them. Get a grip..
MikeLeahy | Sep 02, 2010, 02:31 PM EDT
Americans today would be scandalized at the comparison between the Irish and today's Muslims. But America has always had deep seeded suspicions for "the foreigner". It's ironic that a country founded on religious tolerance has been so historically untolerant. The British government's treatment of the native Irish was so dispicable that I understand the response of Irish Americans about fighting with or against the British. The British however, brought them all upon themselves. In 2010 Irish-Americans have forgiven the Brits for the most part (exempting right wing whackos like Margaret Thatcher). If you want to see close mindedness take a close look at the Unionists in the North of Ireland.
eileenkny | Sep 02, 2010, 11:34 AM EDT
I'm old enough to remember my parents watching JFK's rebuttal to those that said he'd be loyal to Rome if he were elected President. When my father came here, the only job he could get was as a bellhop, even though he was a tailor by trade. For many of today's immigrants, it's not much different-ie the doctors from India working as nurses' aides because they can't practice here. It's so sad that there's now a word "Islamaphobic" as if it's the whole religion we have to be afraid of.
jamieLM | Sep 02, 2010, 08:59 AM EDT
Agree with bogsidebunny, Temerity, patrick1945, haywraps, and jacersisityourself. You've said it all.
bogsidebunny | Sep 02, 2010, 04:22 AM EDT
When you compare Islam and Catholicism you're comparing apples and oranges. Catholicism is a Christian religion. Islam is not a religion. Islam is an ideology. The Islamic ideology dictates the subversion of ALL but Muslims through stealth.
Temerity | Sep 02, 2010, 02:23 AM EDT
The comparison is wrong for starters Americans were already Christian and at no time did they discriminate agaisnt Americans and call them infidels and 911 would nevr have been on their agenda. Get real mate.
DennisQ | Sep 02, 2010, 02:22 AM EDT
I'm amazed at the number of people who hold forth on the subject of the Muslim mind, as if they knew anything at all about it. These people have never travelled to a Muslim country, don't read Arabic, are are completely unfamiliar with the Quran. Instead they get their information from people who are not at all neutral and not at all interested in presenting the facts honestly and fairly.
We've just wrapped up the combat portion of the war in Iraq, which was sold to us on the basis that Saddam had WMD's and was in league with Al Qaeda. Because neither of these was true, it's an open question what 4,400 Americans died for in Iraq. If Saddam wasn't a threat, then what did these young Americans die for?
There's much to be gained by understanding the realities of a situation before advocating policies that don't work to our advantage at all. America depends on the good will of Muslim moderates; otherwise the extremists will simply take over. But at the same time, people who really don't know anything are saying we should denounce all Muslims as cut from the same cloth; that is, they're all out to convert us or kill us or both. One person even described Muslims as vermin.
The world is too small for us to entertain backward ideas like the notion that one religion is good and another religion is bad. Some people actually think this is true! We need our best understanding of our fellow human beings, not our worst.
Think you know all about Muslims? When's the last time you read an Arab newspaper?
patrick1945 | Sep 01, 2010, 11:30 PM EDT
Irish immigrants want to leave their old lives behind. Muslims bring their old lives with them (Sharia Law). Irish wanted to become Americans. Muslims want America to be come Muslim.
haywraps | Sep 01, 2010, 07:46 PM EDT
Irish Catholics didnot try to KILL everyone that didnot AGREE!!! with then.
jacersisityourself | Sep 01, 2010, 07:00 PM EDT
This excellent article of Tom's ignores a huge difference between... people arriving in America who are forecedly of Muslim indoctrination under pain of a sword... and Irish Catholics arriving in America who have a choice. There's no comparison.
semperfidelis | Sep 01, 2010, 06:26 PM EDT
Well said Mr.Sinatra you nailed it. Also, Horseinmdstream, I have spoken with numerous muslims over the years.One of my very best friends whom I worked with for nearly 15 years and was one of my first partners in the investment brokerage business was an immigrant from Egypt. He was a devout muslim, gave me a gift one year, a special edition of the Koran (which we discussed plenty of times) I was his sponsor when he became a U.S. citizen and over the years my wife and I socialized on a regular basis with Rif and his wife.Over the years I met nearly his entire family and countless of his fellow muslims at get together's at his house. Sad to say my friend died of cancer in 2003. Before he got sick and died, we had long talks about 9/11 etc. Bottomline he was appalled but not surprised in the least by what happened. He stopped going back to Egypt in the late 90's because he said things were getting nutty there. During the reception at his home after his burial much of the conversion was decidely negative re: America; even his own wishes for his service was changed by his cousins,they felt it was too western, not Islamic enough.So from my direct experience and my observing what's going on around the world, on that basis I make my comments,they don't come in a vacum based on how I "feel"
lawyer4 | Sep 01, 2010, 06:07 PM EDT
This article makes several excellent points.
IrishTierney | Sep 01, 2010, 05:58 PM EDT
Irish Catholics are very different than Muslims Tommy boy, and you have failed to convince me otherwise. Rebelforce and MrSinatra have both hit the nail right on the head with their comments. All you've succeeded in doing Tommy, is making the Deignan's look foolish. Redeem yourself!
Rebelforce | Sep 01, 2010, 04:29 PM EDT
Tommy, where on earth did you get the idiotic notion that Irish-American support for Irish freedom in Ireland suggests that they weren't "patriotic Americans"? Utter rubbish. I would suggest to you that those Americans of Irish descent who opposed British tyranny in Ireland were infact among the most patriotic Americans this country has ever produced.
MrSinatra | Sep 01, 2010, 04:26 PM EDT
in the old days, when people came to America, they wanted to become American, which didn't mean renouncing your past but did mean embracing a new culture. these days, a lot of people who come to America want America to become like them, and thats the problem.
shidoobe | Sep 01, 2010, 04:03 PM EDT
irish Catholics never hijacked 4 jetliners and killed nearly 3000 people in one day. NOT THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD, they are not, I have freinds that are of that faith. Myself I am a Baptist, NOT IRISH CATHOLIC but the ONLY way through heaven is what Jesus Christ said ""I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Yet the Muslim Faith preaches this... Surah 9:5 verse of the Quran, which is claimed to call upon "all" Muslims to kill "all" non-Muslims or the so-called "Infidels". Quran say, "fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them?" (9:5). So you tell me if Irish Catholics are like Muslims. And BTW I hope the mosque doe snot get built near Ground Zero, how insensitive.
RiverAveGuy | Sep 01, 2010, 03:42 PM EDT
Nice try Tom, but no one believes that crap.
irishimport | Sep 01, 2010, 03:23 PM EDT
The reason John Reilly and others fought for Mexico during the Mexican-American war was because the were under the rule of British officers and were subjected to all kinds of religous bigotry the main reason they left Ireland in the first place http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7zZkGAvGT0
JamesMurphy | Sep 01, 2010, 01:50 PM EDT
Well out, Tom. Along similar lines, it's important to note that previous generations, like the present one being concerned about a Muslim-dominated world, became paranoid about Catholics imposing their way of life on others and, during the 1950s no thanks to the lunatic Joe McCarthy, of Communism festering unchecked. What next after Islam fails to take over the world? The Zaroastrians are going to be on the march? Please, wake up and smell that coffee.
killowen | Sep 01, 2010, 01:12 PM EDT
Such crap is hard to take. Sheer fodder for nada
Binasdad | Sep 01, 2010, 12:58 PM EDT
How often does it have to be repeated before it sinks in? The Muslum religion didn't attack us on 9/11, Al-Queda did. As recently as 1960, President Kennedy had to reassure America that he wouldn't be taking orders from the Vatican. It is much easier to attack another religion when we forget that our religion was once under similar attack.
hancock | Sep 01, 2010, 12:52 PM EDT
Whe srtippers fly planes into skyscrapers I'll worry about them.
Irishphotograph | Sep 01, 2010, 12:39 PM EDT
John Devoy was my grandfathers uncle...David Hayes find me on Facebook.
TheYank | Sep 01, 2010, 12:30 PM EDT
wjmcgi1,
Your point on Canada misses one vital ingredient: the government and the people of the United States did not consider Canada - really, Great Britain - "friendly." They'd fought a war in 1812 - something many Americans living in the 1860s had not forgotten - and during the Civil War the British toyed with the idea of offering formal recognition to the Confederates. And, Canada offered refuge to Confederate spies and saboteurs, including John Suratt, who conspired to kidnap Lincoln and possibly was in on the later plot to kill him.
For that reason the US government had given signals to the prominent Irish leaders in and out of the Union Army that when the Civil War was over they would not interfere in their plans to invade Canada. However, the Johnson Administration got cold feet and did intervene and sailed American war ships up the Niagara River to stop the Irish from sending any more troops into Canada after they'd actually won their initial engagements.
HorsesInMdstrm | Sep 01, 2010, 11:14 AM EDT
To MaryM232: I'm not vermin and you have no right to call me that. I'm a military veteran. And while decidedly non-religious myself, I support the right of all religions to have places of worship. And just to remind you. It's not solely a mosque and it is two blocks from ground zero, at roughly the same distance as a strip club, I've read (but never attended).
HorsesInMdstrm | Sep 01, 2010, 11:08 AM EDT
A couple of thoughts: many Muslims in our country are native born Americans who have converted to Islam. Wouldn't they get the benefit of the doubt regarding their allegiance to our country? In semperfidelis most recent comment - try substituting Israelis for British - change Irish to Palestinian or Muslim. I think semperfi's comment would still be accurate, and so I wonder how many Muslims he has spoken with. I've only met a few Muslims in my time, and would hesitate to draw conclusions about all or most Muslims from my small sample.
slainte9 | Sep 01, 2010, 11:07 AM EDT
Yet another Irish Central commentator who's doesn't know the Union commanders at Gettysburg -- Reynolds and Meade -- were Irish. That the Dean of West Point for 30 years before the Civil War was Irish. Or about Fordham's "conspiracy" to implement Rerum Novarum (aka the New Deal) in America.
MaryM232 | Sep 01, 2010, 11:06 AM EDT
Almost forgot. Ireland never attacked the US. The Irish were fighting to free their country, not to invade and commit genocide against the citizens of another country. There's a vast world of difference between the situation with what happened in Ireland, and what is happening in the Muslim world. Also, you see muslims in the middle east, in Africa, in Asia, slaughtering others of different beliefs on a weekly, if not daily basis. You see muslims killing Hindus, Christians, Jews, those of other indigenous beliefs across the planet.
MaryM232 | Sep 01, 2010, 11:03 AM EDT
Neither the Bible, or the tenets of the Catholic faith call for killing non-believers, the koran does. The Ten Commandments state murder and that bearing false witness, lying is a sin, the koran tells muslims that murder of non-believers is crucial and lying to non-believers to deceive them in the promotion of islam is highly recommended. There is no comparison to a few crackpot Irish emigres, and the many muslim extremists who have emigrated to the US. The Irish came here for freedom and to escape hunger and persecution. My Irish grandparents didn't romanticize corrupt Irish men and women, in fact they spoke out against them. They recognized the IRA for what it was, no different than the English who exploited power, and they didn't hate all English. My grandparents loved Ireland, but they didn't romanticize that country either. They embraced what being a US citizen meant, and taught their children and grandchildren that rights and freedoms weren't something just for you, but something you respected others as having a right to. Being a US citizen requires an appreciation of the obligation to respect others' rights and freedoms as well. My father fought in WWI, and he, his parents and siblings were ashamed for Ireland's open support for the nazis. It wasn't neutral, it showed it's willingness to support anti-semitism and genocide based on it's hatred of the English, which made Ireland far worse, and much more guilty than any wrongs England had been guilty of. Deignan is an example of someone who seeks to exploit US rights and freedoms, to lie and distort for ideological purposes, rather than respect for rights and freedomsd, a trait he shares with the Ground Zero Mosque imam. Anyone who buys into his palaver isn't an American citizen in their heart and soul, they are no different than vermin.
semperfidelis | Sep 01, 2010, 10:54 AM EDT
Good points,wjmcgi1, my main bone of contention is this, the acts undertaken by the early Irish immigrants were motivated by the desire to break the grip of the british over their homeland not an attack on the U.S,misguided as they may have been ; at the same time the overwhelming majority of them always strived to become and in fact did become, more "American than the Americans" , so to speak. I see no such desire on the part of far too many recent immigrants to this country, muslim or otherwise. God bless and help the ones that truly desire to become good and productive citizens of this country,(while still maintaing their affection and fidelity to their ancestorial traditions and heritage) but for those that don't, I say we must resist and thwart their designs at all times.At this point in time, I don't see the same desire to become assimilated within the"melting pot" to the same degree as the Irish were. As for the brazen comment, I will concede your 100% right on that point, lol
DeaconJack | Sep 01, 2010, 10:36 AM EDT
How quickly they forget the fact that after every conflict of the USofA,that they werwe the first to rush in and bring the defeated country back to order. Please see, Berlin, Tokyo etc
Searlit | Sep 01, 2010, 10:31 AM EDT
The idea of peace being brought to the Middle East is great.
wjmcgi1 | Sep 01, 2010, 10:21 AM EDT
You make some interesting points semperfidelis, but Deignan is spot on. I would argue he even soft sells his point. Imagine if the new immigrant Muslims were to pull a move like the Fenians did in the 1860's and 70's by invading a friendly American neighbor for the express purpose of holding part of its territory as ransom. Just imagine a Jehad into southern Ontario Province today by armed Muslim militants in order to get a preferred settlement in the Middle East. Yet that is what fresh Irish immigrants did, not once but a bunch of times. We are much more brazen tribe than the Muslims.
bronxjames | Sep 01, 2010, 10:18 AM EDT
The Palestinians are always protesting something and so are those jews. It's the irish who were set upon by morons mostly italians who had been here. No AMERICAN construction worker would help build that piece of shit near GROUND ZERO.
chesapeake | Sep 01, 2010, 09:42 AM EDT
Not much.
semperfidelis | Sep 01, 2010, 09:09 AM EDT
What you're not pointing out is that, while the Irish who came to America, my grandfather among them, did indeed continue in various ways to support the homeland and the struggle to be free of british rule in Eire, they nearly all had a strong desire to become fully assimilated as Americans. They came to embrace the concept of American first, Irish always. What the did not do, with the exception of the San Paticios, was take up arms or conspire against the U.S.A. Indeed, Irish-Americans have always been the most stout and numerous among our warriors defending this country in all our wars. Sad to say, the same certainly can not be said about a significant number( not all,not even a majority) of muslims in this country. Open your eyes and see things as they are not as you wish them to be.There is a dangerous number of muslims in this country and around the world who wish to see America brought down and changed to their liking and far too many well-intentioned but bleeding heart type Americans willing to accomadate them rather than appear bigoted. Your comparison is specious and without merit.
Padraig | Sep 01, 2010, 09:00 AM EDT
interesting perspective.