42 Comments

• DanOLoingsigh | Oct 18, 2011, 02:15 AM EDT

  Churchill's attitide to de Valera should not be confused with his attitude to Ireland. Nor should he be compared with some of the nonentities below.

• kilgara | Oct 18, 2011, 12:04 AM EDT

  Churchill was an Irish-hating racist on that side of the pond similar to Thomas Nast, Samuel F.B. Morse, Woodrow Wilson and innumerable others on this side.It's a tired old story but one that needs to be remembered.

• sirpeter | Oct 17, 2011, 01:22 PM EDT

  @Tommy Swine. My good Sir!! I did not respond to your trifling post as it's contents were exactly that,trifling.I do ware my title(lower case and all)proudly as Her Majesty's Royal Overseer of Mr.Tommy Cessford and Mr.Bilgegate.When I read the somewhat lightweight scribblings and the petty schoolboy smugness between your good self and Mr.Bilgegate.I felt I had to intervene on Her Majesty's behalf.When you compare the much more balanced and intelligent comments of the right honorable gentleman Mr.Kinvara7 and others in comparison to yours and Mr.Bilgegate.I do despair.I do feel as West Brits on this Isle ye are a poor embarrassers (opps!!typo)ambassadors to Queen and Country.Her Majesty has expressed in the harshest terms her wish to make yourself and Mr.Bilgegate even more West British by which she means new residents of the Falkland Islands.

• seagreen | Oct 17, 2011, 12:11 PM EDT

  Tom Swinford..... I wish I could take someone to task in your literate manner :-(

• ancavker | Oct 17, 2011, 10:17 AM EDT

  Niall: This is old news regarding Churchill's plan to invade the south. He was warned repeatedly by FDR not to do it.

• antoman | Oct 17, 2011, 09:19 AM EDT

  I've said it on this site before and I will say it again. My Gran-uncle on my mothers side left Cork and joined the RAF in WW2. He went there so that he would have a few bob in his pocket. His bomber was shot down over Germany and he was killed. He was just one of 100,000 Irish who left Ireland to fight with the allies. I wonder how he would have reacted if while he was over there the British were here reducing our cities and towns to rubble and slaying people by the bushel. Its a good job I suppose Churchill did'nt invade Ireland or I might not exist and you would not be reading my words. Peace.

• kinvara7 | Oct 17, 2011, 09:19 AM EDT

  Realist: your two posts try to set out and argue that Ireland was pro-Axis. What proof do you advance to support that? Well you allege that a student threw a stone at the American Consulate General. Can you not see how ridiculous your position is? Look at all the details I have set out detailing the support that Ireland gave the Allies. Perhaps if the statesmen of other nations took the principled approach that de Valera took in the 1930s and stood up to fascist Italy rather than appeasing it, maybe a precedent would have been set. However, that did not occur. Churchill said that: "It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies." Sadly, many of the citizens of these other nations know nothing of Ireland’s efforts during this period (indeed the only bits they know are the bits that support the conclusion they want). I have responded to your post regarding the US State Department’s correspondence; please read it and note the conclusions of the OSS representatives.

• kinvara7 | Oct 17, 2011, 09:18 AM EDT

  Realist: as regards the US State Department correspondence, you are either being selective or you are not fully informed. They made that note public on the 10th of March 1944 however it had been conveyed to de Valera much earlier. For the next two weeks the American press portrayed Ireland as being infested with Axis spies (that despite the success of the Irish authorities in capturing German spies during the war). There was a great deal of hypocrisy at this time regarding Ireland’s neutrality, considering the fact that America had tried to stay out of the war. These sensational and inaccurate press reports would cause lasting damage. In response to the note, the Taoiseach reminded Gray (the American representative) that the Irish secret service was working closely with British Intelligence. The Taoiseach stated that he would not do away with the Axis diplomatic missions, but he would take any measures suggested to eliminate any possible espionage. Indeed in this regard the Irish government seized and stored the wireless transmitter of the German embassy. The British representative informed Churchill that as regards caging the Axis representatives the Irish government ‘will go to any lengths’. Indeed Gray was critisised for his misrepresentation of Irish neutrality in the note; Gray’s behaviour during this period is questionable. OSS officials who visited Ireland in 1943 had expressed satisfaction with the security situation. Edward Lawler (who took over the OSS liaison with the Irish on intelligence matters) stated that: ‘I can truthfully say that we received 100% cooperation from the Irish Authorities,’ he explained years later ‘the cooperation and information that we received from the Irish was every bit as extensive and helpful as it would have been if Ireland had been a full partner in the war effort.’

• kinvara7 | Oct 17, 2011, 06:20 AM EDT

  @warrenpoint00: considering your reference to ‘these long boring post... ‘ [sic] we may surmise that you don’t like reading, and it shows. Sometimes the truth is boring and long, I understand some people find that difficult.

• Kilsally | Oct 17, 2011, 05:56 AM EDT

  any `invasion` would have been solely strategic for the USA / UK war efforts over the atlantic - the ports would have been very useful and strategic but the Ulster ports sufficed especially with the dockyards in Belfast. Allied aircraft negelcted Irish airspace and just flew straight over Donegal to RAF bases in Northern Ireland.

• Sparklet | Oct 17, 2011, 04:12 AM EDT

  Churchill was kept in the dark about all the help Dev was giving the allies then?

• cillowen | Oct 16, 2011, 10:45 PM EDT

  Dev's service to the Saxon Motherland needs a better explanation than that written by this Jock scotty fellow and voiced by some of his NI ilk. Surely Dev, one highly regarded by tribe members was proudly brought to my attention - far removed from ol erin - that he was one of them - this Converso Cuban and Co Clare momma fellow would go to bat for those of his own stripe. The painting of him, a Hitler lover takes the cake. I believe Dev was England's Greatest Spy and the account given here is but rubbish. The Irish neutrality that served Britain so, was a brilliant hatched move between the troika of DeValera, Churchill and FDR. I also believe Dev set up Michael Collins for the kill and helped trigger the Civil War that had brother fighting brother. Dev's overall primary concern was in securing a homeland for his tribe. He being a lover of Hitler is complete bullcrap - a real bottom of the barrel reach. During WWII footstuff of all kind was flowing to the Saxon occupier as were manpower from every county in ol Erin ferrying back and forth to help the Mother. The natives later would honor near blind Dev with the presidency - the same as they intend doing with Dev's party newcomer Gallagher. Have a great time trying to explain why such benefits accrued to the benevolent Saxons crowd in their time of need. The beat goes on even today -the love and appreciation of knightings bestowed makes em go gaga.

• cillowen | Oct 16, 2011, 09:44 PM EDT

  Sir Peter, how kind of you to respond to my trifling post. You are too kind. Yet, I cannot refrain from tendering a concern: My dear boy, you must wear your title proudly. While your regrettable inability to engage in reasoned debate is most troubling, this should not be the cause for the diminutive form of your worthy name and title. You are Sir Peter, Her Majesty's Royal Overseer of Cesspool and Bilgewater. We West Brits must stand together, lad - and know what we stand for: God, Queen, Commonwealth and Country, the unbeaten warriors of a lost empire, the great carriers of civilization to lesser peoples. When you present your honored title in lower case, as 'sirpeter,' you convey an excess of humility which may be perceived as weakness by the natives, and taken advantage of. Worse, it could suggest certain deficiencies in lower quarters too, if you follow my meaning. Sadly, it appears that once again, you are off your meds and back on the booze. This is indeed regrettable and it may be necessary for the club to employ the services of our agent provocateur, George Dillon, whom we've engaged before with, alas, mixed results. Nevertheless. Now then, no more of this 'sirpeter' nonsense, old boy. Now, there's a good lad.

• warrenpoint00 | Oct 16, 2011, 09:43 PM EDT

  Looking at these long boring post...looks like the free state subjects have nothing else to do with their time, not surprisingly, with the melt down in their forever broken down free state.

• Rebelforce | Oct 16, 2011, 07:22 PM EDT

  Churchill actually had plans to invade and occupy Norway in 1940, but the Germans found out about the invasion and invaded Norway themselves. As far as Ireland, if the British had thought they could get away with successfully invading and occupying the Irish Free State they certainly would have done it. They correctly calculated that such a blatant act of aggression would have an extremely negative effect on critical US public opinion where Irish-Americans were a particularly numerous and influential presence. The fact that any military invasion of Ireland would also necessitate a large army of occupation and probably spark a bloody guerilla war makes the entire idea of an invasion highly impractical. Ofcourse, if the Germans had tried an invasion of Ireland (most unlikely) the British undoubtedly had military plans at the ready to quickly meet that kind of security threat.

• jacersagain | Oct 16, 2011, 06:21 PM EDT

  I am surprised at Niall O’Dowd writing a needless article like this. I wonder what his intention was/is. Eh?... Well, tell us Niall, what’s the point of this article looking back at over 60 yrs after the event? Where’s the forward-looking mind of yours that, a few months ago, wanted to be President of the Irish Republic? >> Re Towngate @ 08.48am this morning... Historical records show that Dev’s Irish State was decidedly, definitely and deftly neutral on the side of the Allies. Dev’s visit to the German Embassy on Hitler’s death was a clever ploy to convince the League of Nations (soon to become the United Nations body) of otherwise. The Soviet Union blocked Dev’s Ireland becoming a member of the United Nations in 1946; in fact Ireland wasn’t allowed to become a member until the mid-‘50s. During the war years, Britain, France and America were grateful for secret Irish Govt and Irish Military Intelligence Services’ collusion with Northern Ireland's British MI Services against Germany, as kinvara7’s post at 04.12pm today correctly relates. Ireland neutrally played ‘Street Angel, House Demon’ to the world at that time.

• Kilsally | Oct 16, 2011, 05:34 PM EDT

  hmm there is a great deal ore to it than that - the US President and Churchill were on record as stating that Ulster was essential to the war effort due to it`s ports. Pretty sure there are articles on the USA and UK Airforces ignoring Irish neutrality and flying over Donegal and other parts in order to save fuel. Pretty sure I read elsewhere of the US & UK seeking use or considering taking over ports in the Republic despite the Republics `neutrality`. Let`s not forget Martin McGuinness`s Sinn Fein were involved with the Nazi`s at this time with Sean Russell dying at the bottom of the sea in a Nazi u-boat and SF helping guide German bombers towards the Belfast Blitz. Infact it is only in recent years people in the Republic have begun to pay their respects to the dead of the World Wars. The War Memorial in Londonderry / Derry city is almost 50/50 Unionist / Nationalist (Protestant / Catholic) yet until very recently only the Unionists commemorate the war dead. Sinn Fein were noticably by their absence at the Irish war memorial in slandbridge during the queens visit recently.

• Realist | Oct 16, 2011, 05:27 PM EDT

  kinvara7: Lol....please point out anything I have written that is not correct.

• kinvara7 | Oct 16, 2011, 04:12 PM EDT

  Realist: You need to change your username because it doesn’t suit you. Ireland provided the ‘Donegal corridor’ to the Allies allowing flights over neutral Ireland crucial for transatlantic flights which secured vital communications between England and the United States throughout the war. Irish Military Intelligence (G2) provided the British with information on German activities in Ireland. While German pilots who crash-landed in Ireland were interned, British, US and Canadian pilots who crashed were usually allowed to cross the border into Northern Ireland. What of the Rathduff aerodrome? Indeed the Irish Marine Service took part in the Dunkirk evacuation [BBC’s Peoples War Homepage, A5920102]. Furthermore, Viscount Cranborne, the British Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, wrote a letter to the British War Cabinet regarding Irish-British collaboration during the war. It details how pro-Ally Ireland was. Finally, what about all the Irishmen who lost their lives in the Second World War? A war that America tried to stay out of.

• Realist | Oct 16, 2011, 03:48 PM EDT

  The day Nazi Germany surrendered to the Allies in 1945, Irish student stoned the American Consulate General in Dublin. Can anyone explain this, especially to US visitors to this site with relatives who gave their lives in World War II?

• Realist | Oct 16, 2011, 03:44 PM EDT

  "Despite the declared desire of the Irish Government that its neutrality should not operate in favour of either of the belligerents, it has in fact operated and continues to operate in favour of the Axis powers". US State Department correspondence with De Valera, 1944.

• kinvara7 | Oct 16, 2011, 03:22 PM EDT

  However, the British were more intent on appeasing Italy. Winston Churchill declared that "It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies." Later de Valera lamented: "There was never a better chance for the League of Nations to be successful against a great power as there was in this case," de Valera said in June 1936. "If it failed in the case of Italy it was bound to fail in the case of other powers. "Despite our judicial equality here, in matters such as European peace the small states are powerless," he told the league’s assembly the following month. "Peace is dependent upon the will of great states. All the small states can do, if the statesmen of the greater states fail in their duty, is resolutely to determine that they will not become the tools of any great power and that they will resist with whatever strength they may possess every attempt to force them into a war against their will." This was the basis for staying out of the coming world war, nevertheless Ireland provided the Allies with a great deal of assistance.

• kinvara7 | Oct 16, 2011, 03:21 PM EDT

  Mussolini ignored his country’s obligations under the covenant. He had his troops invade Ethiopia on October 3, 1935. The next day de Valera told the Irish people in a radio broadcast that Japan’s invasion of Manchuria had shaken the league to its foundation. "If a second similar successful violation takes place," he warned, "the League of Nations must disappear as an effective safeguard for individual members. The obligations of the covenant should be enforced. That was our position in the case of the Sino-Japanese conflict. That is our position in the present case." When Britain proposed economic sanctions against Italy, de Valera backed them but he warned that military action should be taken if sanctions failed. A declaration of war would have been a matter for the Oireachtas, and he warned his cabinet that it would "be contrary to the spirit of the covenant" to refuse to take part in any "collective military actions to be taken by the league."

• kinvara7 | Oct 16, 2011, 03:21 PM EDT

  In anticipation of some of the comments that might follow, I have set out matters Ryle Dwyer has raised in articles and his book: Behind the Green Curtain: Ireland’s Phoney Neutrality during World War II. Look at the position de Valera took in the 1930's. As president of the council of the League of Nations, de Valera sought action against Facist Italy. In 1935, as Italian troops were massing to invade Ethiopia, Anthony Eden, then Britain’s representative at the league and a future prime minister, warned London that de Valera was a "firebrand" who wished to attack Italy. "The final test of the league and all that it stands for has come," de Valera told the assembly on September 16, 1935. "Our conduct in this crisis will determine whether it is better to let it lapse and disappear and be forgotten. Make no mistake, if on any pretext whatever we were to permit the sovereignty of even the weakest state amongst us to be unjustly taken away, the whole foundation of the league would crumble into dust. By our own choice and without compulsion we entered into the obligations of the covenant," he said. "We shall fulfil these obligations in the letter and in the spirit. We have given our word and we shall keep it."

• kinvara7 | Oct 16, 2011, 03:17 PM EDT

  TomSwinford: Certainly, it was a serious political mistake however you are reading far too much into it. Compare it with his actions on the 13th of April, 1945 when he eulogised Roosevelt in a speech to the Dáil and adjourned it “as a mark of respect and of sympathy with the American people” You should also keep in mind the 1937 Constitution specifically recognised and gave protection to the "the Jewish Congregations" in Ireland (I believe it was the only written constitution in Europe which made express reference to the existence of Jewish congregations). My understanding is that de Valera specifcally wanted to assert Jewish civil rights in the Constitution; an important statement in the atmosphere of 1930s Europe. Professor Dermot Keogh cites an oral source that attributes the inclusion of the Jewish Congregations to consultations with Isaac Herzog, then Chief Rabbi of Ireland, and a personal friend of de Valera. As regards the signature itself, as I have already said it was primarily a personal gesture to Hempel and strict adherence to protocol. I believe the British Representative, Sir John Maffey, commented that de Valera's actions were "unwise but mathematically consistent" with Ireland's neutrality. I think you should examine de Valera's contribution to the League of Nations, in particular his stance regarding the actions of Japan and Italy during the 30s. Finally, it might interest you to note that there is a forest in Israel named after de Valera. Think about it, just two decades after signing the book, Ireland's Jews considered the incident an aberration in the Taoiseach's overall record. And they honored de Valera by planting a forest of 10,000 trees in Israel in his name. Finally, which signature(s) should we criticize most Dev’s or those of the statesmen who tried to appease Hitler?

• Realist | Oct 16, 2011, 03:16 PM EDT

  slainte9: My friend, I rather think it is you who is trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to divert attention from De Valera's and Eire's shame during this period. I haven't even mentioned Sean Russell yet....oops.

• slainte9 | Oct 16, 2011, 03:10 PM EDT

  Now there's a reliable source: a Scots historian speculating about Ireland. That DeValera and Churchill disliked each other is no secret. On the other hand DeValera was no friend of fascism. And Ireland's "neutrality" was pro-British and pro-American. GERMANY DID NOT HAVE THE MILITARY CAPABILIITY TO INVADE IRELAND, and the ports in the Irish Republic were of little or no value for guarding convoys. This matters little to British sources intent on diverting attention from their own miscalculations that handed over Czechoslovakia over to Hitler without a fight, and failed to send a large and effective force to France to stop Hitler. Indeed the British force in northern France when it fell was smaller than the Belgium army, a mere 13 divisions compared to 104 French and 22 Belgium, with the British deploying virtually no armor. The "credibility" of British and Scots writers concerning Ireland and World War II depends a lot on the prejudices of the readers and their inability to read maps and understand the actual military capability of Germany. British tanks performed well against the Germans in France in 1940; there just weren't nearly enough of them. The air Battle of Britain proved that the Germany and its air force did not have the ability to invade the British Isles... ANY OF THEM. And for those who don't know anything about the war in the east, it may come as a surprise that the German air force vary rapidly lost its numerical and technical advantage culminating in its failure to maintain an air bridge to the surrounded German forces at Stalingrad.

• Realist | Oct 16, 2011, 02:59 PM EDT

  On De Valera, "....there is no record of his having done what was generous or noble or wise, only what he believed served 'the 'Cause'". David Gray, United States Ambassador to Eire, 1940-47.

• Realist | Oct 16, 2011, 02:44 PM EDT

  "Eire's neutrality must be respected. A neutral Irish Free State is of greater value to us than a hostile Ireland .We must be glad that Ireland has remained neutral up to the present." Adolf Hitler, 1940.

• warrenpoint00 | Oct 16, 2011, 02:33 PM EDT

  Thirty years later though Churchill finally got his wish with a british invasion of Ireland

• cillowen | Oct 16, 2011, 02:29 PM EDT

  I believe Dev was England's Greatest Spy and the account given here is but rubbish. The Irish neutrality that served Britain so, was a brilliant hatched move between the troika of DeValera, Churchill and FDR. I also believe Dev set up Michael Collins for the kill and helped trigger the Civil War that had brother fighting brother. Dev's overall primary concern was in securing a homeland for his tribe. He being a lover of Hitler is complete bullcrap - a real bottom of the barrel reach. During WWII footstuff of all kind was flowing to the Saxon occupier as were manpower from every county in ol Erin ferrying back and forth to help the Mother. The natives later would honor near blind Dev with the presidency - the same as they intend doing with Dev's party newcomer Gallagher. Have a great time trying to explain why such benefits accrued to the benevolent Saxons crowd in their time of need. The beat goes on even today -the love and appreciation of knightings bestowed makes em go gaga.

• cillowen | Oct 16, 2011, 02:27 PM EDT

  I believe Dev was England's Greatest Spy and the account given here is but rubbish. The Irish neutrality that served Britain so, was a brilliant hatched move between the troika of DeValera, Churchill and FDR. I also believe Dev set up Michael Collins for the kill and helped trigger the Civil War that had brother fighting brother. Dev's overall primary concern was in securing a homeland for his tribe. He being a lover of Hitler is complete bullcrap - a real bottom of the barrel reach. During WWII footstuff of all kind was flowing to the Saxon occupier as were manpower from every county in ol Erin ferrying back and forth to help the Mother. The natives later would honor near blind Dev with the presidency - the same as they intend doing with Dev's party newcomer Gallagher. Have a great time trying to explain why such benefits accrued to the benevolent Saxons crowd in their time of need. The beat goes on even today -the love and appreciation of knightings bestowed makes em go gaga.

• Barbaracvm | Oct 16, 2011, 02:04 PM EDT

  The same master mind Churchill badgered the British generals to land at Anizo. The generals were against it. We all know what a disaster that was.

• Searlit | Oct 16, 2011, 01:51 PM EDT

  Based on how the Irish have been treated in previous wars, they would likely have been sent to the front lines in suicidal attacks against the enemy. Too many Irish have already lost their lives struggling to hold onto what was rightfully theirs - their own country. Too many promises of fair treatment and respect, followed by their opposites, caused them to re-consider fighting in the British ranks. At least, thats my humble opinion.

• sirpeter | Oct 16, 2011, 01:28 PM EDT

  Tommy Swine & Tommy Towngate. Will ye ever get passed foundation level history? Two simpletons with schoolboy simplistic views on political history.It's about time ye both picked up a few books that doesn't have pictures.Those books without the pictures will give ye a better understanding.

• Rebelforce | Oct 16, 2011, 01:11 PM EDT

  Churchill actually did try to invade and occupy Norway in 1940, but Hitler got wind of the invasion and beat him to it. As for Ireland, if the British thought they could get away with successfully invading and occupying the Irish Free State they certainly would have done it. They correctly calculated that such a blatant act of aggression would have extremely negative implications on critical US public opinion where Irish-Americans were a particularly numerous and influential presence. The fact that such a military invasion of Ireland would also necessitate a large army of occupation and possibly spark a bloody island-wide guerilla war against the Irish makes the entire idea of invasion highly ridiculous. On the other hand, if the Germans had launched an invasion of Ireland (most unlikely) the British undoubtedly had military plans drawn up to quickly meet that kind of security threat.

• Springfield9 | Oct 16, 2011, 12:29 PM EDT

  Churchill just loved any excuse to see Irishmen die. He killed them in the Great War, he helped plan the Tans and wanted to invade so he could shoot more. Churchill was an English Terrorist.

• Springfield9 | Oct 16, 2011, 09:36 AM EDT

  There's nothing really new in this story, save for the fact that it's rather one-sided. As Towngate correctly points out, Hitler also had plans to invade Ireland North and South. His 'Operation Green' was a full-blown plan for invasion to coincide with 'Sealion,' the Nazi plan to invade Britain. Both failed because the Luftwaffe lost the Battle of Britain in 1940. Also, German intelligence concluded that their partners in Ireland, the IRA, were a bunch of total f**ck ups. To the Irish Republic's everlasting shame is that Dev visited the German embassy in Dublin to convey the state's condolences on Hitler's suicide, the greatest monster in human history, but did not go to the American embassy to offer condolences on the death of Franklin Roosevelt, a giant for freedom and progress for the ages.

• Towngate | Oct 16, 2011, 08:48 AM EDT

  Old Dublin jape :- " Yeah, I know we were Neutral - but whose side were we Neutral on!?"

• MatthewJshow | Oct 16, 2011, 08:30 AM EDT

  The fact of the matter is the British and Germans had plans to invade Ireland. A very detailed account of the inavasion plans by both the British and Germans appears in a book by Robert Fisk titled"In time of war". Fisk hits the nail on the head with regards to invading Ireland. It would be a costly occupation. It was clear that Dev had a very close relationship with the Allies. Downed pilots were treated fairly. Dev had a very difficult balancing act during the war. Whether he made thr right choices is tough to gauge. Ireland, for the most part tried to remain neutral.

• antoman | Oct 16, 2011, 08:19 AM EDT

  It seems to me had Churchill approved the plan to invade Ireland Hitler would have rubbed his hands together with glee. We might all be speaking Irish now.

• Towngate | Oct 16, 2011, 06:50 AM EDT

  When Britain was standing alone defending Western Civilisation against the Nazi Terror, their leader Winston Churchill asked Ireland for help - offering in return that Ireland would be "A Nation once again" to DeValera; Dev fell into a catatonic stupor, walked around all night holding the Telegram, and never had the decency to even reply! ASk yourself: why did he not want Ireland United? Was a free united country too high a price for Ireland to pay for the eradication of the Nazi threat? Did Dev have a arrangement with Berlin following the 'fall' of Britain? Did Churchill have a similar one in the face of a British defeat!!!? So many official papers which contain these answers have been destroyed or are locked away for ever! People might be shocked to learn how these two 'foes' were really walking hand in glove together!