63 Comments

• eiriamach | Aug 23, 2012, 06:34 PM EDT

  The US government has no interest in, and nothing to gain by, controlling religion, Phannie. On the other side, Cardinal Dolan has shown a remarkable ambition to control health care policy for the USA, women's reproductive rights, LGBT civil rights, and the immunity of priests and bishops from criminal child abuse laws. What do the bishops have to gain? Many millions of dollars in grants from government agencies like HHS, for Catholic hospitals, schools, and agencies, and millions more saved by preventing lawsuits against the church. The USCCB is James Madison's and Thomas Jefferson's worst nightmare.

• seanomelb | Aug 23, 2012, 06:15 PM EDT

  It's the tyrants in Gods clothing that we have to watch the religious hypocrites on the right!! phannie boy

• PhlutiePhan | Aug 23, 2012, 03:29 PM EDT

  Socialism is acceptable to the Catholic Church within certain parameters which Mr. Obama does not tolerate. It is up to Joe Biden to step up and use his catholic upbringing to put a brake on the marxist in the White House.

• PhlutiePhan | Aug 23, 2012, 01:42 PM EDT

  a Godless tyrant is much more dangerous than a God fearing president with the limitations of checks and balances of a divide system of government. The Constitution protects religious liberty in order to prevent government control of the church, or religions.

• redhand32 | Aug 23, 2012, 10:19 AM EDT

  GOP Christian Amerika =the "Christian" Taliban !

• eiriamach | Aug 23, 2012, 07:49 AM EDT

  Briano, do you think there's no danger of church interference in govt? Agreeing with SSPX, this pope REJECTS separation of church and state. Read his Sept. 2011 speech to the Bundestat. The US bishops' lawsuits against ACA and gay civil rights pursue his goal of influencing govt policy through coalitions of conservative Christian voters. Benedict quoted Origen to persuade the Germans that when the state isn't guided by religion, it enacts "secular," godless laws: "Origen provided the following explanation for the resistance of Christians to certain legal systems: 'Suppose that a man were living among the Scythians, whose laws are contrary to the divine law, ... such a man for the sake of the true law, though illegal among the Scythians, would rightly form *associations with like-minded people* contrary to the laws of the Scythians.'" He rejects secular ethics: "systems of law have almost always been based on religion." Madison warned of this danger of alliances of churches to control law and national policy: "The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other or to a corrupting *coalition or alliance* between [church and elected officials] will be best guarded against by entire abstinence of the govt from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others" (Letter to Jasper Adams, 1832). The Constitution protects religious liberty in order to prevent church control of government.

• eiriamach | Aug 23, 2012, 06:09 AM EDT

  That's half of the 'establishment' clause, Briano, but not the one it's named for. Having lived under a king who recognized special rights for members of the 'established' church, including seats in Parliament, the framers of the US Constitution were determined that all religions, as well as non-believers, would be on an equal footing, none empowered to establish their own beliefs as law. JFK and Al Smith (whom I quoted below) understood that papal doctrine was at odds with the establishment clause; both needed to overcome that obstacle to being elected. Smith wrote in 1928, "I recognize no power in the institutions of my Church to interfere with the operations of the Constitution of the US or the enforcement of the law of the land. I believe in absolute freedom of conscience for all men and in equality of all churches, all sects, and all beliefs before the law as a matter of right and not as a matter of favor. I believe in the absolute separation of Church and State and in the strict enforcement of the provisions of the Constitution...."

• BrianO | Aug 22, 2012, 08:06 PM EDT

  Eiriamach, they deemed it important that all be free to worship religion as they were persecuted by the tyrannical government of england and the church of england, government imposed religion.

• seanomelb | Aug 21, 2012, 06:40 PM EDT

  I suppose Peterson you are also a Birther and have problems defining rape.

• peterson | Aug 21, 2012, 02:44 PM EDT

  Romney?Ryan would be the right choice as Obama is a socialist and also cannot be trusted which the past three years has illustrated. I also question his ties with the Chicago mob and his religious inclinations.

• eiriamach | Aug 21, 2012, 10:49 AM EDT

  Think again, whiteycat: "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." ~~ James Madison, father of the US Constitution. He meant religion trying to impose itself on the general population through control of state power, the same goal the GOP is trying to serve today.

• whiteycat | Aug 21, 2012, 09:47 AM EDT

  Alisaann, separate church and state is for the benefit of the church, to keep politics from interferring in church business not the other way around.AAnd obama is far from poor. Send him your wedding, birthday,graduation etc gifts to the po boy.give me a break.

• whiteycat | Aug 21, 2012, 09:41 AM EDT

  I am sure they like obama. They are wrong. He is too secular.Biden is trash.Romney and Ryan are fresh faces with great plans to fix us.Some wont work but others will.

• Collette2 | Aug 21, 2012, 06:44 AM EDT

  It shouldn't be on account of the pope, it should be on human right issues and ethical standards, moral and otherwise. Catch up with the news from Peter's Square# I mean chair.

• alisaann | Aug 21, 2012, 02:38 AM EDT

  the catholic church should STAY THE HELL OUT OF IT.....RELIGION HAS NO PLACE IN POLITICS.....SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE!!!!!! ALISA

• alisaann | Aug 20, 2012, 10:02 PM EDT

  Perhaps the Roman Catholic Bishops should back Todd Akin. He seems to reflect the position of the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy. Women have no rights and must accept whatever men decide for them. I see that Romney has changed his position on abortion and now says it is OK in the case of rape and his running mate Ryan says it is OK if a the pregnancy threatens the life of the person carrying the baby. It seems all the candidates are pro abortion. There is just a difference in reasons. So it's your move bishops. Are you for the rich (Romney) or the poor. (Obama)

• seanomelb | Aug 20, 2012, 07:47 PM EDT

  I fear BulldogMania has a touch of the rabies and is not responsible for his stupid commentary

• BulldogMania | Aug 20, 2012, 02:05 PM EDT

  Mmmmmm, let me see...one party supports baby killing on demand, sodomite marriage and killing off seniors by taking $713 BILLION dollars out of medicare. The other party is pro-life, supports traditional marriage and would restore funding to medicare and create a system, first proposed by President Clinton to save medicare from certain bankruptcy. Yeah, you are right...the choice is so difficult this year for Catholic bishops and the Faithful.

• jerrydonovan | Aug 20, 2012, 12:43 PM EDT

  BippyBellito says that Romney/Ryan are two honest men.Iwill paraphrase the late Winston Churchill when he said in regards to another politician,"I willnot lower myself to calling my opponent a liar,however I will say that when he speaks,he is generally guilty of uttering nothing but terminalogical inexactitudes"Were Romney/Ryan ever to accidently speak the truth they would probably issue an apology and then continue on like nothing had happened.

• eiriamach | Aug 20, 2012, 10:09 AM EDT

  lokionline follows in the great tradition of Al Smith, who wrote, "I should be a poor American and a poor Catholic alike if I injected religious discussion into a political campaign." That's the same Al Smith who, when opposed by a Protestant theologian who understood the encyclicals requiring Catholic govt officials to obey Church doctrine, replied, "What the hell is an encyclical?" Whatever an encyclical is, it does not replace any government official's conscience. Or any voter's conscience.

• pilib04 | Aug 20, 2012, 08:40 AM EDT

  How could the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops have any relevance whatsoever to the American election. These men have shamed themselves repeatedly in their conspiracy to hide child rapists-priests and child rapist-bishops. They have no credibility whatsoever.

• hermitTalker | Aug 20, 2012, 06:43 AM EDT

  As noted, the Church's social justice policies are not partisan, they are founded in Natural Law-Biblically enunciated principles which have developed, not Obama-like evolved as in his same gender views. They are not rooted in any specific theory or scholar as such, the core principles are adapted to the changed circumstances and applied with "prudential judgment" a classic phrase which Mr Ryan uses. I appreciate the research and thoughtfulness of citizenwhy here, obviously an educated thoughtful citizen. I have heard him on R Arroyo's The World Over on EWTN and replayed the post-budget programme recently and find him very balanced. He is quite sensitive to the Jack Kemp lesson that "A poor USA cannot help the poor" and hence wishes the debt hole to be filled up, more so that the Keynesian economic Obama and Co theory.

• lokionline | Aug 20, 2012, 12:22 AM EDT

  Frankly, what Bishops think has little relevance other than for their own vote. If Catholics vote according to what they are told by a Bishop rather than by their own independent discernment, then they don`t deserve the right to vote.

• irishpjk | Aug 19, 2012, 11:58 PM EDT

  wtf It’s very simple Obama and his liberal friends will kill our religion, their goal is to get rid of religion. They support all the things that religion opposes, and oppose most of what religion stands for. Obama supports gay marriage and abortion; he would not support a bill giving basic health care to a fetus that was alive after an abortion. What is left for any Bishop to question Romney/Ryan has to be an improvement on that record.

• michaelidaho | Aug 19, 2012, 07:34 PM EDT

  At the end of the day, any true Catholic will see that neither political party encapsulates Catholic values in its entirety.

• hollabackgurl | Aug 19, 2012, 07:00 PM EDT

  Paul Ryan is too extreme even for the US Catholic Bishop's Conference, and that really takes some doing. Wait till they get a load of Mitt Romney and his God from another planet and Satan being the brother of Jesus. It's like the GOP asked themselves who can we run who is certain to fail?

• seanomelb | Aug 19, 2012, 06:53 PM EDT

  Religion should play no part and if the catholics or any other religion who preach politics from their chapels,churches or temples they should pay taxes. In fact if they were "Christian" in their beliefs they would pay taxes and ease the burden on the poor and the middle classes,sadly they prefer to sup with the rich and powerful as they (religions) are corporate bodies anyway.

• cillowen | Aug 19, 2012, 06:13 PM EDT

  which one, a jesus - an alien fellow who landed in US and spoke to Joe Smith such is the Romney type fellow who seeks to be president or stick with the real deal believing soul who's so far sticks with that displeasing saviour whom his own most powerful tribe big time rejects.

• CitizenWhy | Aug 19, 2012, 05:24 PM EDT

  Ryan claims to be guided by Catholic Social Teaching as preached by the laissez-faire capitalist, libertarian Acton Society. But Ryan's politics are not based on Catholic social teaching, and he should be challenged on this claim. The best comment on Ryan's misunderstanding, deliberate or not, is found in an article I quote below (source cited at the end). “Ryan correctly identifies one aspect of solidarity, namely the “recognition of the common ties that unite all human beings in equal dignity,” as he puts it. However, Catholic social teaching adopted the view of Heinrich Pesch, S.J., (1854-1926) and Oswald von Nell-Breuning S.J., (1890-1991), who envisioned three aspects of solidarity: 1) solidarity as de facto human interdependence; 2) solidarity as an ethical imperative; and 3) solidarity as a principle concretized in legislative policies and institutions. Official Catholic social teaching has long accorded a positive role for the government in protecting the economic rights and well-being of people. By its very nature, solidarity requires advocating social change on the structural level. This is the case because eliminating the causes of the suffering of the wounded and oppressed requires embodying solidarity in social policies and institutions. In other words, solidarity includes but goes beyond charity to promote justice and human rights, particularly by empowering the marginalized. Charity is important, but never sufficient to meet the needs of the poor, as Pope Benedict reminds us in Caritas in Veritate.” ... "What Ryan Missed: What Catholic social teaching says about solidarity and subsidiarity," Gerald J. Beyer, America magazine, June 4, 2012

• cartersmate35 | Aug 19, 2012, 04:59 PM EDT

  I think they have many choices...but, may I please correct one of your paragraphs? See here: The tiebreaker of course, is abortion which both Romney and Ryan oppose and Obama and Biden support. Neither President Obama nor VP Biden believe in abortion. BUT, they do believe in a woman's right to make her own decisions. Most Catholic or Christian women will not choose abortion, but, under the law, that is THEIR choice to make according to THEIR SPIRITUAL beliefs.

• GregShox | Aug 19, 2012, 03:24 PM EDT

  The bishops should support whatever side gives them the best deal on child abuse.

• RichardP | Aug 19, 2012, 03:23 PM EDT

  Catholic Bishops should stick to what they know best - covering up child abuse

• McNamara31 | Aug 19, 2012, 03:04 PM EDT

  Lucia826 ….What happens when you have a political party totally beholding to corporate greed that has caused insurmountable pain to the poor, children and the elderly with their cuts to social programs; the same party who lied us into war with Iraq and who has no ethics when it comes to protecting God’s creation “the environment”, yet they hide behind the banners of pro life (for votes) while their policies do only the opposite for the living?

• miamicanes | Aug 19, 2012, 02:45 PM EDT

  The bishops fear no one because they think they have the only key to upstairs. Tell me my dear friends, how many years has it been since the catholic church changed it's preaching about the jews killing christ. Couple of thousand, maybe?

• BrianO | Aug 19, 2012, 02:40 PM EDT

  One man one vote, opinions are opinions, unless community activists get involved, acorn anyone.

• Eschetic | Aug 19, 2012, 02:35 PM EDT

  O'Dowd has a point on the two main issues American Catholic Bishops have taken a position on - but he ignores a third serious point that they do also consider: what happens to "leaders" whose troops refuse to follow? It is essential that they build the shrinking base of their congregations of the "faithful" but polls have consistently shown that 70% or more of American Catholics do NOT believe them on modern birth control and abortion (especially since science has demonstrated that their OLD position on life beginning at the "quickening" - when the ganglia of the brain start to come together and the fetus becomes a baby who kicks - which, coincidentally, is the end of the first trimester when current LAW ends the right to abortion - was the most realistic one) but they DO follow them on their accurate analysis of right wing attacks on social programs and unbalanced schemes to balance budgets. A hard decision, of course, but ultimately one which, except for the most blinded by their own biases, will help lead to the re-election of the best, most reasonably MODERATE President since Eisenhower. The Bishops, like most Americans, rightly fear extremists.

• Lucia826 | Aug 19, 2012, 02:31 PM EDT

  Sorry, my dear Irish friends: There truly is NO difficulty in the "choices" to be made. Those who are pro-abortion are O-U-T; and those who are pro-life should be endorsed. Those bishops and hierarchy who are misled may, in their social justice confusion, think they have "hard choices" to make. All those men have to do is go back to what the Catholic Church teaches...and we in the pews must remind them that there is no cafeteria line in our faith...

• McNamara31 | Aug 19, 2012, 02:27 PM EDT

  slainte9 |Its as kscorletta has stated in her post in New York and on Long Island. Cardinal Dolan has also had meetings to denounce Obama at events held at local high schools.

• slainte9 | Aug 19, 2012, 02:19 PM EDT

  Malarky. The bishops don't endorse candidates. Sermons never mention candidates. Sometimes the diocese in Phoenix prints a voter guide in their newspaper with candidates responses to Catholic issues. As often as not, it's the devout Republicans who don't respond.

• miamicanes | Aug 19, 2012, 02:17 PM EDT

  "Until 1978, the LDS church banned men of African descent from its priesthood, a position open to nearly all Mormon males and the gateway to sacramental and leadership roles. The church had also barred black men and women from temple ceremonies that promised access in the afterlife to the highest heaven." And the chickens come home to roost>

• miamicanes | Aug 19, 2012, 02:14 PM EDT

  How many remember the Morons used to say about the blacks. Not too long ago! Do believe they have one black bishop in al l their ranks.

• kscorletta | Aug 19, 2012, 02:09 PM EDT

  The cards have already been dealt, played and the orders have gone out. The Bishops had already asked for active denunciation of Obama care through votes for the "other side". In my own parish on a day sacred to our country a sermon after the gospel warned of the threat to our religious freedom from our present government. By the way, the sermon was delivered by a deacon rather than the pastor. I was horrified to see the gospel pulpit used for such campaigning. After all, no one has yet told me to have an abortion and/or advised or prohibited the use of birth control in my life. Caitann

• Nicomax | Aug 19, 2012, 02:02 PM EDT

  Firstly, the bishops better keep their yap shut when they preach to their flocks, unless they are not worried about losing their tax-exempt status. Secondly, The real 'national socialists' running may be the GOP team since they were only too happy to waste tax payer dollars on two non-funded wars, while cutting taxes primarily for the rich, and then providing seniors with a drug program also without funding.

• McNamara31 | Aug 19, 2012, 01:43 PM EDT

  jamthecat great post

• porkheaven | Aug 19, 2012, 01:40 PM EDT

  In this case the Bishops are 100% right. Other faiths have been excepted from the birth control and I think it is wrong to force the catholic church to subsidize birth control which is against our teachings and other problems are going to rise wide open sex and increase diseases. I will go with Romney/Ryan because I do not believe in abortion. They also believe in fiscal restraint where as the current administration does not. we cannot afford a another 4 years of Barack & Biden.

• miamicanes | Aug 19, 2012, 01:35 PM EDT

  actually 2nd generation irish. Grandparents came from Ireland 1875/ My mother protestant irish ancestors came to america in1649. Ryan has never had to work a day in his life. Power hungry millionaire.

• miamicanes | Aug 19, 2012, 01:22 PM EDT

  ways that taught us right from wrong. The church says their way is the only way. Wrong. So for all the bishops, stay the hell out of my secret vote.

• miamicanes | Aug 19, 2012, 01:19 PM EDT

  And what do the bishops have to do with my voting. When I go into the poll to vote, it's a secret and now dumbxxx bishop is going to tell me how to vote. It hasten't been too many years ago my sisters and I were told not to associate with somone of another religion. Well now, that didn't go over very big since out mother was protestant. I am seventy-seven and still ratain all the negative remarks about someone be protestant. For example, my sister used to here the nuns as the other children in her class to pray that our mother turns catholic so when she dies she won't rot in hell. You know what I say. Go to hxxx. I am third generation irish and thank God for my mother and her non-discriminating

• BippyBellito | Aug 19, 2012, 12:54 PM EDT

  The choice couldn't be easier. Romney and Ryan are both honest men who have the ability to lead. On the other hand, we have a practiced liar and a buffoon neither of whom can utter an intelligent sentence unless it is scripted by the person behind the teleprompter. The Catholic Church and The United States is in survival mode. Unless both realize their predicaments soon, both are doomed. Obama must go!

• Gearoid4 | Aug 19, 2012, 12:30 PM EDT

  @TomSwinford You argue that you would prefer to see an abortion in early term, before a life is "viable", in cases where the child is unwanted or unaffordable. So that is your solution then, to potentially difficult pregnancies like this-just discard the embryo/foetus, like he or she were just waste products. We are talking about human life here, which is deserving of respect, with the right to live.

• jamthecat | Aug 19, 2012, 12:29 PM EDT

  R&R will take America to the brink of bankruptcy by 2016. All you have to do is look at the budgets they propose to see that. Ryan's will cut $1.7 trillion dollars from programs aimed at the elderly and poor over the next 10 years while giving billionaires $4.3 trillion in tax cuts that they do not need, adding $2.6 trillion dollars to the debt. And these are conservative estimates. The bishops were right to call it immoral. R&R will also crush Social Security and destroy Medicare. They may claim they'll protect both programs, but they are lying, just as they have lied before and will lie, again. Obama has not been perfect, not by a long shot, but anyone who supports Romney and Ryan supports turning the US into a Third World nation, with crumbling infrastructure, rolling blackouts like they're having in Pakistan and India, and a huge divide between the rich and everybody else...all because millionaires and billionaires, who already pay the lowest tax rates in the Western World, don't want to pay one penny more. If that's the kind of country you'll accept just because you don't believe a woman should have the right to control her own body, then go live in Pakistan or The Dominican Republic and see how much you like it.

• Frosty38 | Aug 19, 2012, 12:21 PM EDT

  I sway on the side of Obama for two reasons. First I'm in my late 70's so I am a Senior on medicare and a Catholic . I attend Mass every Sunday and follow the religion as i was raised a Boston Irish Catholic , it is a vey good reason to terminate. I would have to look at all the pros and cons. In the health of the mom. So I'm worried about Ryan

• Nicoletta | Aug 19, 2012, 11:51 AM EDT

  I agree with you Mr O'Dowd, the bishops are between a rock and a hard place but the Republican ticket, with its strong pro-life message is the better fit for them. Although the US bishops, together with Pope Benedict, are strong supporters of universal health care, the mish-mash proposed by the current administration via Obamacare will only serve to continue the corrupt practices of the medical system in the US, where only the insurance companies and the practitioners benefit. God help the poor in the US, even Obamacare stymies them.

• Nicoletta | Aug 19, 2012, 11:38 AM EDT

  PhlutiePhan, "Obama is a Marxist Socialist.." Is he now? And do you know what a Marxist Socialist is lad? I realize that you are a bit long in the tooth and probably not capable of radical changes at this point in your life - but have you considered growing a brain. Now, there'e a thought.

• Nicoletta | Aug 19, 2012, 11:32 AM EDT

  Maggie47, while I am no longer a practicing Catholic I do believe that there are many millions of Mass-going Catholics who accept that abortion is sometimes necessary. I would willingly see an early term abortion -before that life is viable - than witness 35,000 to 40,000 babies die every single day around this world because they are unwanted or cannot be cared for. That, to me, is far more unconscionable than ending a potential life before it is born and fully viable. That said, like almost everyone, I would never condone a late term abortion except to save the mother's life.

• McNamara31 | Aug 19, 2012, 11:30 AM EDT

  PhlutiePhan..."Obama is a marxist socialist who is against organized religion in efforts to install national socialism." "Be careful what you believe."..... Or what you "choose" to believe as so.

• PhlutiePhan | Aug 19, 2012, 10:52 AM EDT

  In the 2008 election, 54% of Catholics voted for Mr. Obama. The Al Smith dinner and Cardinal Egan being friendly to Obama had a lot to do with that. That is why Cardinal Dolan is playing into the very media hand of the president. Obama is a marxist socialist who is against organized religion in efforts to install national socialism. Romney is capitalist. Capitalism in and of itself is not immoral. Godless socialism is immoral as seen in the national socialism in Germany. Be careful what you believe.

• eileenkny | Aug 19, 2012, 10:24 AM EDT

  What I believe in my heart is that Obama/Biden are better for our country at this critical time in our history. Both Romney and Ryan have voted for and then reneged on their posittions. Yes, I'm a Catholic and I go to Mass every week. But I also believe that the Church needs to come into the 21st century and realize it is not "our way or the highway" anymore.

• McNamara31 | Aug 19, 2012, 10:23 AM EDT

  Politics are a manipulative enterprise especially as it relates to the Republican Party who has become a more religious body than political, and it is Evangelists who guide the politicians and who are calling the political shots. Karl Rove is their architect and his super pacs persistently strive for greater dominance. Abortion a moral issue is used by Rove and the GOP as a political issue. The Catholic Bishops now heavily involved in politics, have unfairly made a case against the Obama presidency from day one even though his health care plan would cover more poor and working poor than ever before.In Rome the moral center of the Catholic Church, between 115,00 to 235,00 abortions are performed yearly, yet most of the bishops outrage is placed here in the American political forum rather than their own. The recent appointment of Cardinal Dolan seemed to be one of Catholic lobbyist more than a shepherd of men. Most realize all will have to stand before God one day and be judges for our decisions and choices. Whether it’s the politicians like Paul Ryan who uses Christianity to manipulate votes then goes on to support cuts against the poor, and the sick, or the political wives who acted like they were against abortion during their husbands presidential terms, only to “come out” directly after with statements in support of abortion (as Bush wife 1 and 2 did). Abortion is not a problem unique to America or Obama. Obama did not create abortion in America; Roe vs Wade did, passed by the Supreme Court during the GOP Nixon administration. In his speech at Notre Dame, Obama clearly stated “let's work together to reduce the number of women seeking abortions by reducing unintended pregnancies, and making adoption more available, and providing care and support for women who do carry their child to term."

• hollabackgurl | Aug 19, 2012, 10:07 AM EDT

  Abortion isn't something you "believe" in. You can be Catholic and support women's reproductive rights. We shouldn't elect presidents that harm the poor and minorities and who comfort the rich because they are anti-abortion. There are other more widespread questions to consider too.

• Maggie47 | Aug 19, 2012, 09:55 AM EDT

  You cannot be catholic and believe in abortion.

• hollabackgurl | Aug 19, 2012, 09:18 AM EDT

  The bishops must choose between supporting a president who protects the poor and the downtrodden, who fights for health care, lowered taxes, fair pay and union rights - or a president who bashes women and gays. Which do you imagine they'll pick? The Catholic Bishops called the Ryan budget plan, which will give himself and Romney tax cuts, immoral. But they'll still vote for him because he targets all the same people they do.

• McNamara31 | Aug 19, 2012, 09:09 AM EDT

  The Catholic Bishops called the Ryan plan immoral.