The truth is Margaret Thatcher likely ordered the Pat Finucane murder -- British can never reveal the truth about the killing of civil rights lawyer
By: Niall O'Dowd | Published Wednesday, December 19, 2012, 7:16 AM | Updated Wednesday, December 19, 2012, 7:16 AM
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| Geraldine Finucane, widow of murdered solicitor Pat Finucane |
The latest British inquiry into the death of
Pat Finucane is again leaving massive questions unanswered.
The Guardian newspaper editorial headline said it best; “Pat Finucane murder: collusion, contrition, but not the whole truth.”
My strong belief is that the whole truth is that
Margaret Thatcher ordered the Pat Finucane murder on February 12, 1989.
That is the key reason that no British Prime Minister will ever allow a public inquiry into the killing of the Belfast civil rights lawyer gunned down in front of his wife and children at his home.
He was shot 14 times while his widow, Geraldine, who was injured, tried to save him.
His only offense was to defend suspected IRA men and women too well in their court hearings.
I am not at all surprised that David Cameron uttered words of regret and then refused a public inquiry after the Da Silva report was issued yesterday.
Geraldine Finucane, a woman of immense courage,called it for what it was.
“This report is a sham. This report is a whitewash. This report is a confidence trick dressed up as independent scrutiny and given invisible clothes of reliability. Most of all, most hurtful and insulting of all, this report is not the truth,” she told reporters afterwards.
Read more: Inquiry into death of Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane shows ‘shocking levels of collusion’ She knows what the truth is. The order to kill her husband came all the way from the top and David Cameron or any other British Prime Minister can never allow that truth to be revealed.
He can’t admit the British kill civil rights lawyers, can he?
Patrick Finucane was bringing the case of the Gibraltar 3, three IRA members shot dead in cold blood in March 1988, to Europe, which was going to be a massive embarrassment for Thatcher, who very likely gave the order for them to be shot dead also.
That court later found the three had been shot unlawfully. They had their hands up in surrender when they were shot down.
Finucane was doomed by a top government official. A member of Thatcher’s government Douglas Hogg, a Home Office minister, stood up in the House of Commons three weeks before Finucane was murdered and stated that some lawyers in Northern Ireland were "unduly sympathetic" to Irish Republicans.
He was directly referring to Finucane and signaling the killers to go ahead.
The new inquiry shows that MI5 was perfectly aware of the Finucane murder plot as were the RUC Special branch.
The Stevens inquiry into the Finucane killings stated, “My Enquiry team also investigated an allegation that senior RUC officers briefed the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the Rt Hon Douglas Hogg QC, MP, that ‘some solicitors were unduly sympathetic to the cause of the IRA.”
Mr Hogg repeated this view...and the Enquiry concludes that “the Minister was compromised.”
In this latest enquiry, Sir Desmond Da Silva wrote, "My review of the evidence relating to Patrick Finucane's case has left me in no doubt that agents of the State were involved in carrying out serious violations of human rights up to and including murder."
Those agents did not act alone, they did so on orders from on high -- all the way to 10 Downing Street.
Thatcher’s reaction to the finding that her minister was responsible for the death of a lawyer?
She promoted him to Minister for Agriculture, all the better to keep him quiet.
Hogg was not alone in fingering Finucane of course. It went much higher in the government, all the way to the top.
It was a time when Thatcher apparently believed she could win the war if only those pesky lawyers would stop getting guilty terrorists off. She also faced massive embarrassment in Europe over the Gibraltar killings.
The killing was sanctioned and carried out by the British state. Of all the crimes committed in Northern Ireland, the Finucane murder is the one which successive British government, of whatever hue, have most resisted investigating.
Pat’s problem was that he was too good at his job of defending Irish men and women arrested for alleged crimes against the state.
He had to be got rid of. The leader of the gang that killed him was a British special branch agent named Tommy Lyttle. The man who confessed to being the Ulster Defense Association hit man was Ken Barrett, also a special branch agent.
The UDA man who supplied the gun was William Stobie, also a special branch agent. He was killed by the UDA, by a British agent in 2001, when he threatened to tell the truth about what happened to Pat Finucane.
Hogg and Thatcher might as well have been in the room when the gun went off fourteen times - they were just as culpable. The naming was the equivalent of painting a target on Finucane’s back - everyone knew who Hogg meant.
The British government had made their preference known.
And all the whitewash in the world will never remove the truth about what happened to Pat Finucane
118 Comments
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.seamus60 | Dec 19, 2012, 01:34 PM EST
He`s most likely getting confused with this and the issue of the touts. With one standing army order of execution for members caught doing the dirty business and another secret one of expulsion for family members of leading republicans caught doing the same. Its sort of like the Ireland of equals where some are more equal than the rest.
curtisjohnson | Dec 18, 2012, 09:20 PM EST
lizardofoz thinks joining the IRA is like signing up for the rotary club (with certain VIP members grandfathered in)! Funny stuff. I guess he's his own credible source for that babbling stream of consciousness.
seamus60 | Dec 18, 2012, 07:45 PM EST
Wizard. you must be typing from OZ as no one ever signed up to the Ra
seanomelb | Dec 18, 2012, 06:03 PM EST
The Wizard and his fairttale muttering below are worthy of the trash bin,the moron.
wizardofoz | Dec 18, 2012, 07:42 AM EST
Johnson, auld son, you are one bitter wee uninformed IRA shibboleth. When I say Paddy Finucane was the only man 'hairy Gerry' ever called 'Sir' you can take that as read, unlike you an acerbic lowlife foot slogger I know what I am taking about. The Adams's, like the Finucane's, were PIRA royalty in Belfast. Where auld Martian McGuiness (fray Derry) had to sign up for the PIRA, Adams and the Finucane clan did not! There membership was a given, that's why Gerry can look the camera straight down the lens I say "I was never a member of the IRA" cause he knows there is NO written evidence, which will contradict him, Finucane clan the same. Three of auld Paddy's brothers were convicted members of the IRA, to suggest Paddy was not is the height of nonsense! Now, go wallow elsewhere. Your done and dusted.
maireadinmelb | Dec 18, 2012, 06:52 AM EST
anglo-norman did you read the report all 500 pages yet! I directed you to a quote. The premise on which the statement is made is flawed. Once you have read it we can discuss it!!! I can confirm for you that there was violence in Ireland long before the IRA existed and that was the violence perpetrated by BRITISH forces! so i stand by my comment the woman (an insult to all women) was delusional!
curtisjohnson | Dec 17, 2012, 08:47 PM EST
@lizardofoz "Paddy Finucane, was no "civil rights lawyer" but he was a member of the Povo's" Any proof for this you filthy little brit troll?
curtisjohnson | Dec 17, 2012, 08:42 PM EST
" .but she won elections, and had a mandate..." which does nothing to legitimize her terrorist activities in the occupied statelet.
DanOLoingsigh | Dec 17, 2012, 06:00 PM EST
She was no hero to me...I loathed the woman and most of her policies...but she won elections, and had a mandate...that's all I was trying to say...
seanomelb | Dec 17, 2012, 05:48 PM EST
Why then did thatcher first use the special powers act against striking miners.Was it because she was an anti unoin zealot afterall the act was an anti terrorism law.Was thatacher not also answerable to her nationalists citizens in the north. She abandoned them and gave succour to terrorist who murdered them. Whre now you remark Dano!! Quote" The idea that being elected legitimises any act of aggression or terrorism by a leader is absurd" where stands your hero thatcher now.
DanOLoingsigh | Dec 17, 2012, 03:19 PM EST
‘The idea that being elected legitimizes any act of aggression or terrorism by a leader is absurd’. Haven’t read of anyone make this argument? Refusing to give in to prisoner demands, no matter what is threatened, is a legitimate choice of a democratically elected government, not an act of aggression…and democratic governments have to answer to their electorate, unlike self-appointed zealots or military juntas….that’s the point.
seamus60 | Dec 17, 2012, 11:12 AM EST
Not that much changed, when only last year we had a district commander of the RUC admitting he didn`t have any control or say of various units operating in his area.
IrelandNorth | Dec 17, 2012, 08:52 AM EST
Oh what wicked webs we weave, when we practice to deceive. When you have a lesser ranking officer of the ex Royal 'Ulster' (sic) Constabulary (RUC) Special Branch (SB) refusing to brief his superior officer Chief Constable concerning convert operations, you know something is rotten in the state of 'provincial' policing. Question is, was the RUC Special Branch the old B Specials in sheep's clothing? And might a more malign scenario have been that the Iron Lady was kept in the the dark about a star chamber in operation?
wizardofoz | Dec 17, 2012, 12:33 AM EST
As for the "Stevens inquiry" that was one of the greatest ignominies the Brits ever put over republicans in Northern Ireland. Three inquiries, costing over eleven million pounds sterling, and that sly auld dog turned up nothing that would stand up in court. His reports all contained the same auld rubbish, 'I believe' and 'I know' and 'I think' and 'If we assume' and 'I can prove' and 'I have enough evidence'. When in fact, he turned up nothing, zilch, nada not one skerrick of evidence of any kind or substance. The man was a fraud from start to finish. He was so effective, so good at finding nothing and making a lot of noise about it why, the Brits showed their gratitude by giving him a Knighthood and retired him on a huge pension. And down the pub they all had a good laugh at republican expense. Boy, did Stevens put one over the Finucane's or what?
wizardofoz | Dec 17, 2012, 12:23 AM EST
Paddy Finucane, was no "civil rights lawyer" but he was a member of the Povo's. Finucane, was the only man in the PIRA that Gerry Adams ever called 'Sir'. As a leading member of the PIRA, Finucane was a legit target. Murdering him in front of his family was a low act. I don't think Thatcher gave any such order, that dirty deed was all home grown. The RUC knew Finucane was using his position as a solicitor to gain access to PIRA members in police custody. It was only a matter of time before he would be taken out. No big deal, simple as that.
curtisjohnson | Dec 16, 2012, 07:32 PM EST
The idea that being elected legitimizes any act of aggression or terrorism by a leader is absurd. In the case of the Malvinas, however, it would be legitimate for Argentina to recover their historical lands/sphere of influence from the alien british (and their planters).
DanOLoingsigh | Dec 16, 2012, 07:03 PM EST
Kneeboy – The Falklands are far from unique…and some sensible arrangement will need to be found…the same goes for the US occupied area of Cuba, the Spanish occupied area of Morocco, Kosovo-Serbia, and many other places where legacy issues of ownership are disputed…can we assume you will focus on some of these, or are you obsessed with certain ‘poster’ issues?
anglo-norman | Dec 16, 2012, 06:59 PM EST
seanomelb is like a donkey with autism lol
seanomelb | Dec 16, 2012, 06:05 PM EST
Gee Mairead you're smarter than anglo,but I suppose that's ot a compliment everybody is smarter than poor old Anglo.
anglo-norman | Dec 16, 2012, 05:20 PM EST
Grow up mairead..
WoundedKnee | Dec 16, 2012, 09:24 AM EST
Loonly: I don't expect Little Irelanders like you to know anything about the world beyond Dun Laoire or Scunthrorpe, but for your information the current President of the Argentine Republic has a perfectly valid democratic mandate. And she too wants to kick the British out of her neighborhood. In view of your faux concern about Thatcher's democratic mandate and Galtieri's lack of one, we can assume you'll back Cristina de Kirchner now.
curtisjohnson | Dec 15, 2012, 10:09 PM EST
" Whether you loathe her policies or not, Thatcher was an elected head of a government..." So was hitler. Moreoever, she was not elected to anything by the Irish people and the Northern statelet is rooted in nation mugging not legitimacy.
maireadinmelb | Dec 15, 2012, 07:49 PM EST
Read paragraph 25.5 of Da Silva's report it quotes thatcher! the woman was delusional in the 1980's dont worry about now!!
DanOLoingsigh | Dec 15, 2012, 07:37 PM EST
Bobby Sands did have a mandate, Thatcher's was just a larger one..she could not be seen to concede to the demands, politically that was never on the cards...they were conceded soon afterwards...when the spotlight had been turned off...both the strikers and the junta made their own decision, as she made hers...
seanomelb | Dec 15, 2012, 06:24 PM EST
Bobby sands MP had a mandate from his constituents who elected him whilst he was incarcerated.
DanOLoingsigh | Dec 15, 2012, 02:26 PM EST
Whether you loathe her policies or not, Thatcher was an elected head of a government...the Argentine Junta and the Hunger Strikers had no mandate but their own...they both underestimated her resolve, and paid the penalty...it's said she is now somewhat confused, as are many of the posters here...
curtisjohnson | Dec 15, 2012, 10:48 AM EST
It seems that the real motivation for thatcher removing the free speech rights and media access for Republicans was to cover up british crimes.
curtisjohnson | Dec 15, 2012, 10:45 AM EST
Citizen6669 “It was a war after all, maybe not conventional but war just the same. She upped the game after the death of Airey Neave & Mountbatten & went full on after the attempt on her life. She became ruthless. There was dirty tricks on both sides as is in all wars” The british terror state has an unparalleled worldwide record for targeting non-combatants to inflict maximum terror. Their sickness apparently knows no bounds as evidenced by their methods of torture in Kenya (not to mention the half hangings and pitch and cap in Ireland). Perhaps the most offensive characteristic about the terror state is its extreme self righteousness in the face of this behavior combined with a shocking triumphalism.
anglo-norman | Dec 14, 2012, 11:08 PM EST
What a stupid squabble it was...
warrenpoint00 | Dec 14, 2012, 09:47 PM EST
Yes Mrs Thatcher ,murder is murder is murder be it in Belfast or Finchley.I bet your conscience is not lettting you get too much sleep at night Mrs T.
anglo-norman | Dec 14, 2012, 09:38 PM EST
Of course Thatcher knew but it can't be proved. It was a war after all, maybe not conventional but war just the same. She upped the game after the death of Airey Neave & Mountbatten & went full on after the attempt on her life. She became ruthless. There was dirty tricks on both sides as is in all wars.
seamus60 | Dec 14, 2012, 07:00 PM EST
Seano. you can bet your life she was being kept well informed as to what black ops were at on her watch. Ever getting anything near proof of her involvement will never happen. Just look at the Bloody Sunday inquirey. Those were the buck stopped in an official capacity still wear their bravery medals with pride.
eiriamach | Dec 14, 2012, 06:42 PM EST
I'm sorry about that, Strongbow. I'll try to use plainer language.
seanomelb | Dec 14, 2012, 05:54 PM EST
Thatcher was complicit in Finucanes murder. There is not much doubt particularly as she was aware of the shoot to kill policy(read Stalker). If she knew nothing why is there so much reluctance by Cameron to release all details of Finucanes murder? Thatcher almost lost her life(brighton) as punishment for her "Irish policies" sadly the IRA missed.
anglo-norman | Dec 14, 2012, 05:18 PM EST
johnnyclash- I did.. those men took their own lives at the end of the day.
Johnnyclash | Dec 14, 2012, 05:00 PM EST
Anglo. You need to read Ten men dead by Davic Bersford.
anglo-norman | Dec 14, 2012, 04:12 PM EST
I don't care for Thatcher but those hungerstrikers sadly took their own lives.
Proud Canadian2 | Dec 14, 2012, 02:19 PM EST
citzen69, lets get it clear here. Thatcher killed those men by not giving a little, they should have been treated as political prisioners not criminals. That is all they wanted. They were brave men everyone of them. Maggie had no heart the same as Bush. They both should have been brought up on charges.
citizen69 | Dec 14, 2012, 01:52 PM EST
Let's be clear here. Thatcher didn't kill any hunger strikers. They died of their own hands, or rather, Sinn Fein's
ArmaghCity | Dec 14, 2012, 10:36 AM EST
It is never right to "celebrate" anyone's death, no matter what horrible things they did. So, when Maggie leaves us, I instead will simply celebrate even further the lives of Bobby, Francis, Ray, Joe, Patsy and the other five she willingly killed in just 1981 alone.
merefalow | Dec 14, 2012, 10:36 AM EST
you know you arent realy surprised,after a 1000 years of this.
IrelandNorth | Dec 14, 2012, 08:25 AM EST
"The level of official collusion disclosed in the report was shocking ..." British PM. Is it shocking because it was disclosed? Or because the ratio of official vs unofficial collusion was disproportionate? The real question is: Who's running the British state, elected representatives, or the unaccountable security spooks? A senior unionist politician referred to the Civil Rights lawyers' assassination as a "misdemeanour". A leading loyalist said more inportant things need to be inquired into(?) And another loyalist leader said flag rioters should be asked to stop - not told to do so(?) Like something out of the film: "A Very British Coup", scripted by directors using George Orwell's 1984 Dictionary of Newspeak. Truth is stranger than fiction!
seamus60 | Dec 14, 2012, 08:24 AM EST
Mairead. Poor joe might have been saved had Adams and his kitchen cabinet informed him of the offer. RIP brave Joe.
like2tweet | Dec 14, 2012, 06:19 AM EST
Under her watch, Margaret Thatcher killed 323 on the Belgrano, 10 hunger strikers, 3 at Gibraltar and allowed many others in Northern Ireland to die
patto69 | Dec 14, 2012, 06:00 AM EST
At last someone has said it, well done Niall.
citizen69 | Dec 14, 2012, 05:32 AM EST
Niall: What a stupid statement to make: "TRUTH is Margaret Thatcher LIKELY ordered Pat Finucane murder"!? There is absolutely no evidence for that but because YOU believe it is LIKELY then it's the TRUTH!?... Then let me follow your lead and state that THE TRUTH is Pat Finucane was LIKELY in the IRA just like his three brothers.
puffin | Dec 14, 2012, 02:12 AM EST
Macreesh was no better than the UVF murderers who committed the sectarian murders mentioned, the difference is they don't have a childrens playground named after them,can you imagine how much that hurts
Strongbow | Dec 14, 2012, 12:57 AM EST
eiriamach - What the heck does "Lacunae" mean? I had to run to my crumpling dictionary to find out. Could you please bring your high-falutin phraseology down a notch so as to appeal to ordinary plebians like meself. Thanks....Maybe you could have used the word "gaps" instead.
darragh S | Dec 13, 2012, 11:23 PM EST
After the Treaty there was criticism over Gerrymandering. Zoom to the troubles and this is what you get ' a government bickering ferociously with disaffected residents feeling disenfranchised and being pained Revanchist. But zoom back to today and you see a UK in crisis who probably cant afford a full inquiry but are in such a poor position that they probably prefer not to get involved. That being said let NI sort out its own problems. 'Irony' refer to start of post you lovers of circular arguments.
Rebelforce | Dec 13, 2012, 11:20 PM EST
And yet you can bet we will still have many thick, knucklehead "free state" Irish continuing to insist that it was the IRA---the people that dared to fight for reform, justice and their rights in the corrupt Northern Ireland statelet----who were the "terrorists" and the cause of all the trouble in the six counties.
anglo-norman | Dec 13, 2012, 09:33 PM EST
The truth is Maragret Thatcher likely ordered the Pat Finucane murder??? How can it be the Truth when you say likely niall? Either she did or she didn't...
barneyjo | Dec 13, 2012, 07:34 PM EST
@ePHraimAg - I take it you are aware that Pat Finucane also represented Loyalists in Court. Ken Barrett, the Loyalist charged and convicted of his murder stated that Catholic Solicitors including Finucane were "off limits" when it came to targetting and assination, simply because Loyalist Paramilitaries had more confidence in them than it solicitors from a Unionist Background. Barrett also said that Pat Finucane would still be alive only for the fact that he was singled out for lethal force by the Security Services!!
seamus60 | Dec 13, 2012, 07:26 PM EST
Anglo. These ten men made the ultimate sacrifice. The last six more than likely via deceit. To that we have much more proof than Niall has to his accusation in this article. No matter how much anyone wants one to be true and the other false.
maireadinmelb | Dec 13, 2012, 07:22 PM EST
I am reminded of the song Joe McDonnell, And you dare to call me a terrorist.....
ciarajoyce | Dec 13, 2012, 07:06 PM EST
This story only echoes what most of us have always known. While life in the six counties has improved, it remains foolish to trust the british.
pilib04 | Dec 13, 2012, 07:01 PM EST
Puffin, not sure you are right about McCreesh, but someone had to put an end to the sectarian killing spree. I know you conveniently forget that this was going back and forth. The day prior to Kingsmill, 4 January, 1976, the UVF killed six Catholic civilians in cold blood, three memberss of the Reavey family in Whitecross and three members of the O'Dowd's in Ballydougan. The Irish News in 1993 reported that a UDR member was involved in with the UVF. Ray McCreesh does have a children's park named after him by the Newry Council. My great grandparents were married in Newry.
seamus60 | Dec 13, 2012, 06:54 PM EST
As much as I would like to be able to say Thatcher ordered this murder I can`t and won`t be able to either. The brits are merely taking advice from Martin Mc Guinness and releasing apoligies as opposed to public inquiries. He set that presidant near the end of the Bloody Sunday Inquirey.
pilib04 | Dec 13, 2012, 06:46 PM EST
Ron, the was never any question about Thatcher being EVIL.
anglo-norman | Dec 13, 2012, 06:17 PM EST
All Governments fight dirty in private so no surprise there.
anglo-norman | Dec 13, 2012, 06:03 PM EST
pilob04- Those ten men took their own lives.
eiriamach | Dec 13, 2012, 05:38 PM EST
woppokus misunderstands what I wrote. Even though I always insist on evidence, I sympathize with Niall's thesis: It's human nature to need explanations, so we fill in the lacunae between the few real facts with theory. I put this tendency to theorize together with an observation and come up with a different point of view, however. My observation is that it's time we face the fact that freedom of the press has utterly failed to safeguard our liberties or give us control over elected officials. Journalists can no longer ferret out the "dirty tricks" of public "servants." Historians, who rely on the press, are also stymied. In the USA, the Patriot Act was probably the last nail in the coffin of a free press as guardian of democracy, of journalists being able to tell full truth about matters of public interest. Thatcher enforced the same secrecy from the top down that Nixon thought would protect him after Watergate (and would have protected him if not for the persistence of 2 journalists and Deep Throat). And then the rise of FOX News' "pay no attention to fact-checkers" spread through the media and left journalists publishing fictions alongside a paucity of facts, all under the heading of "news in the public interest." And, as others have said, if we had full disclosure, some, like Gerry Adams, might have to retire from public life (though I think history would not be brutal to him if we had full disclosure of RUC provocations and "dirty tricks"). So the huge problem that I think Niall's article points to is that we need to find a way to restore flow of information from government-- timely full disclosure-- because our tendency to construct theories is too dangerous and stymies progress. It runs on the pain of the past and carries that pain into the present. And maybe, when we're tough enough to deal with all the chips falling where they may, we'll find a way to get more of the truth.
puffin | Dec 13, 2012, 05:24 PM EST
Edgar Graham, my mistake
puffin | Dec 13, 2012, 05:18 PM EST
Kevin don't agree with everything you write but at least you make a cogent argument, unlike some of these Pseudo Plastic Irish yanks,at some stage there will have to be a truth commission, and the Finnucan family will have to take their place along with other victims,a lawyer is of no more value than anyone else,does anyone remember Edgar Grahme,
Ron | Dec 13, 2012, 05:16 PM EST
Goes to show you, it's not just the Gadaffis, Mubaraks and Assads who order up random killings of opponents or critics. There are just as many evil people on our side of politics too.
KevinKehoe | Dec 13, 2012, 04:51 PM EST
[1] Firstly I am Irish and second I have friends and relatives from Britain & Northern Ireland, both Catholic & Protestant. Like the Majority of the people of both islands we want the truth the whole and nothing but the truth and not half truths. We are forever hearing about “great British Justice” The many Westies commenting on hear must believe that a State has the right to ignore & break the law and deny justice it so proudly preaches. All through the troubles the British had trials and jailed people from both divides whom they claimed were involved in the troubles and then they done away with Justice and jailed them anyway, except there own ?.The British government is hiding the full truth by not having a public inquiry to protect the elite it represents and not the British public. When a state deny’s these basic human rights and a bucket full of other injustices including murder and less voting rights than your neighbors, far less work, lousy education and housing, etc, etc. They get a reaction. The reaction in Northern Ireland was at first civil rights protests and marches & least you forget they were stoned by there neighbors, beating to the ground by state tugs and had there houses burned to the ground just for starters.
KevinKehoe | Dec 13, 2012, 04:50 PM EST
[2] Now what would you bunch of self-righteous Imperialists do in the same circumstances to protect your family and fight for your rights. “I know get someone else to do it for you”. Imperialist Britain created the troubles and everything that came with it, the resurgence of the IRA, UVF and all that came with it. For heavens sake they done it right across there now collapsed Empire, look at whats happing in Palestine due to there deeds in 1917 and 1946. The majority of people North & South voted for peace and the good Friday Agreement. Many people have suffered, many were jailed for involvement in paramilitary’s but the real criminals [the establishment] are not prosecuted for there heinous crimes. Some of you real criminal lovers below even suggest that Thatcher should have acted like Obama ,maybe Drone attacks on Nationalist areas, kill men women & children, Sicko’s. Maybe you bunch of Imperialist would like to hang your hat & scarf in Thatcher’s hall and have some tea & scones with her guests like Mass murder Pinochet, ha, you wouldn't be even allowed knock at the door ? because you are Serfs, you just don't realize it.
warrenpoint00 | Dec 13, 2012, 04:42 PM EST
Prosecutions is what we need now.The so called cradle of democracy the british government has admitted its shameful role in the murder of innocent Irish catholics.The victims of bloody sunday in Derry and Pat Finucane are but the tip of the iceberg of a long list of Irish catholics murdered by her majesties government in the north of Ireland.Lets start with her majesty and work our way down.
puffin | Dec 13, 2012, 04:42 PM EST
Pili MCreesh Lined up 11 Prod workers and shot them dead creesh
pilib04 | Dec 13, 2012, 04:13 PM EST
Bobby Sands, Francis Hughes, Ray McCreesh, Patsy O'Hara, Joe McDonnell, Martin Hurson, Kevin Lynch, Kieran Doherty, Thomas McElwee, Michael Devine. Thatcher is pure evil!
seanomelb | Dec 13, 2012, 04:13 PM EST
Thatcher directed her terrorist army to use any means to kill IRA or IRA sympathisers. She almost got her jus desert at Brighton,sadly the IRA failed.
pilib04 | Dec 13, 2012, 04:02 PM EST
Had no idea that there were this many westBrits and Anglophiles reading Niall's column.
pilib04 | Dec 13, 2012, 04:00 PM EST
If you people hate on Patrick Finucane, I can only imagine your opinions of America's leading human rights attorney, the late William Kunstler!
puffin | Dec 13, 2012, 03:24 PM EST
Pat was a draft dodger and as such I have no respect for him,unlike his three brothers who both part of the movement and fully fledged terrorists.
MaxTiger | Dec 13, 2012, 03:05 PM EST
I doubt Thatcher would have shown much interest in Finucane. There is greater reason to believe that she, in effect, gave the nod to the Gibraltar killings but Finucane was never going to be able to prove it. The greater issue is the widespread collusion between British state forces and Loyalist terrorists. They fought a dirty war against any enemy who knew how to fight dirty better than anyone else. Finucane was a supporter of IRA members in their courtroom battles with the NI judiciary. The IRA targeted this judiciary, remember Mary Travers? This is what happens in dirty warfare. The British never admitted they fought it while the IRA/Sinn Fein hypocritically complain that they didn't stay within the rules of British justice(a justice system they wanted to destroy). I can understand the Finucane family wanting to know all the truth but I find any utterances from Sinn Féin shameless. The real reason there cannot be a public inquiry is that there are so many IRA victims that are forgotten. How could the British PM continue to have public inquiries into carefully selected controversies when Adams himself won't even admit to ever have been an IRA member?
ePHraimAg | Dec 13, 2012, 02:49 PM EST
Protestants and Catholis never liked Thatcher, especially selling Off the British Industries to foreign concerns... assuredly the Miners still do not like Her. Anyhow, the fact remains, that Ulster has never been United with the Republic which were at one time 4 Houses but united By Brian Boru in His Day. Do not forget the killing of Lord Louis Mountbatten, and what should Be do with Killers who think they have the Right and Claim upon Ulster. Yes, there is much finger pointing by the Nationalist community but please remember that The other 3 fingers are pointing straight back at You. Yes... We remember What Joe Kennedy did and The price has yet to be paid and We are waiting with the Greatest Patience to see The Plights Of they who Harbour Terror in their Hearts against Ulster as a Whole. A bullet in JFK is a nice prelude to the continued assassinations of The Kennedy Clan and 9:11 the First Fruits of Our contentment. We cannot reason with the steadfast Irish support in the USA who continue to supply Money and Arms to continue Terrorism in Northern Ireland.. We are better off giving medicine to The Dead!
ePHraimAg | Dec 13, 2012, 02:41 PM EST
Let get one thing off the table right away Patrick Finucane was not a Civil Rights Lawyer. All his higher profile clients were Republicans charged with heinous crimes against their fellow man. His own family was riddled with IRA and in all likelihood he too was a member. So drop the Civil Rights tag he was no more that than F. Lee Bailey or the lawyers for Bernhard Goetz. Everyone should be entitled to a defense, but it doesn't make them Ghandi.
Nicomax | Dec 13, 2012, 02:16 PM EST
Just as the British government can never reveal the truth about the Finucane incident, the US government remains silent on JFK & RFK murders and 9/11.
Watchman | Dec 13, 2012, 02:15 PM EST
Oh dear, Niall. So now it's your precious record in the peace process that is in play – i.e. your public support for Sinn Fein and the armed struggle, in which some 3,500 people died. What that has to do with the subject at issue is beyond me.
woppokus | Dec 13, 2012, 02:04 PM EST
"Ken from Dublin", "wounded knee" and "eiriamach" by their illogical posts wish to be excluded - along with Niall - from any jury list. So be it. BTW pace oh wounded one, I have lived in the 'occupied zone' all my life except for a while 'growing up' in the midlands of England. One question. Are we better to rely upon independent research than on prejudiced non-factual mouthings that take us not one millimetre closer to understanding our particularly nasty and brutal Irish approach to inflicting "man's inhumanity to man"? I must say I prefer cool considered analysis to the 'must fill this space immediately so that my readers will warm to me and my commercial enterprise' urge that Niall's tabloid vapourisings manifest . . . of course he means well . . .
buslane | Dec 13, 2012, 02:03 PM EST
Pat Finucane cannot be described as a civil rights lawyer. He was not interested in civil rights of IRA victims but he did his best to ensure justice was NOT done in respect to IRA terrorist murders and bombings. Unfortunately Margaret Thatcher did not take a hard enough stance against the IRA. She could have taken a few lessons from President Obama who was not scared to take out Osama Bin Laden and actually take the fight to the terrorists in a meaningful way.
seanaci | Dec 13, 2012, 01:49 PM EST
We've come a long way since 1988. Now the US president can openly order assassinations and it is more or less taken as normal. Credit for this is due to the media and spin doctors.
eiriamach | Dec 13, 2012, 01:45 PM EST
The problem always has been putting real evidence to any theory about Finucane's murder. If evidence still exists, in documents or in people's memories, it would be far better for all to have it out now. To have a theory widely believed to be truth, together with the frustration of decades-long official stone-walling and covering up, only increases frustration and divisiveness. The theory about Thatcher giving a Finucane death order makes sense, agrees with known facts, and explains much, so it attracts believers despite the lack of evidence. Thatcher herself ensured as much. When she held the fate of the hunger strikers in her hand, it was her decision, her mistake, to concede nothing until the death of Bobby Sands brought international attention to the standoff. On May 5, 1981, when a House of Commons member suggested that the death of MP Sands would be "due to the right hon. Lady's intransigence," she said, "He chose to take his own life. It was a choice that his organisation did not allow to many of its victims." Though Sands was never convicted of murder or terrorist activities, Thatcher rationalized letting him die because Sands was, in her mind, in her *theory*, a murderer. That's how such theories work in the absence of evidence--dangerously.
WoundedKnee | Dec 13, 2012, 01:43 PM EST
The usual anti-Irish crowd who for some reason hang around this site have jumped on O'Dowd. I bet a lot of them have never even been in Ireland, and certainly not north of Dundalk. As someone who was in Ireland in the 1980s, and who remembers the atmosphere of those years, with the constant Shoot To Kill incidents in which police and British Army liquidated people believed to be a threat to the state, I find O'Dowd's hypothesis quite plausible. The only caveat is that I don't think Thatcher would have bothered to micromanage the murders--she got one of her minions to do it for her. But a word for those who are yelping about "journalism" here; O'Dowd clearly states that this is not a news story--it is an opinion piece. Do you dopes not understand his use of the phrase "my strong belief"? And a final word for Walter Ellis (didn't you promise us you wouldn't post here any more?)--what a double standard you have, talking about a "fascist" Argentina (I've lived there--have you?) when Thatcher's bosom buddy, and important diplomatic backer at that time, was Chiles's Kill The Commies fascist dictator Pinochet. You're still a worthless hypocrite, Ellis...
Tea leaf | Dec 13, 2012, 01:07 PM EST
My strong belief is....Niall O'Dowd. Niall looked into his tea cup and by looking at the tea leaves he was able to divine the evidence necessary to write this. My strong belief is that you need to revisit a media studies course!
woppokus | Dec 13, 2012, 01:05 PM EST
Niall - Staps 62 puts it far better than I. So glad that you're not either judge or jury if and when I ever stand accused. Your 'belief' that directly connects Thatcher with Barrett/Nelson & Pat's assassination etc is simply that: it's not 'the truth' whatever that might be. I wonder whether you deploy the same flawed illogic re any/all of the 1,000 assassinations by PIRA gunmen/women? Are you 'blaming' everyone except the trigger men/women? Absolute hogwash!!
pilib04 | Dec 13, 2012, 01:04 PM EST
"The Fascist regime in Argentina? What in heavens name do you think the regime in London is? These criminals have been terrorizing the world for 4 centuries! They do the same to their own people. Every Brit stolen land needs to be returned. Call it the Hong Kong solution!
pilib04 | Dec 13, 2012, 01:01 PM EST
Speaking of direct orders from on top, clearly Rosemary Nelson's murder came from above. She was threatened openly far too many times.
staps62 | Dec 13, 2012, 12:44 PM EST
Wow...I really was hoping that Irish Central would be a good place to find worthy reporting on issues such as this...but this type of reporting, especially the headline, is so baseless. I can get this just reading the headlines at the checkout counter at the grocery store. Its one thing for Mr. O'Dowd to have an opinion...but no facts to base these opinions on leaves the whole article nothing more than tabloid.
whiteycat | Dec 13, 2012, 12:31 PM EST
I dont know enough Irish politics or British pol.either, but It sounds like they are covering for her just like in the US they cover for obama. Clinton does, S.Rice does, It is shame but trueful
lecorri | Dec 13, 2012, 12:15 PM EST
I wouldnt be in the least surprised to find that Thatcher was responsible for the murder of Patrick Finucane. I also believe that the British government will NEVER provide any proof of this, even tho I have always believed that without a doubt she was ultimately responsible. I expect nothing else from the British where Ireland is involved.
Niall O'Dowd | Dec 13, 2012, 12:13 PM EST
I think I can put my role in the peace process up against yours any time Watchman (Read Conor O'Clery's book Daring Diplomacy if you need a refresher) I have moved on but the cover-ups by her majesty's folks are a trifle upsetting, especially the execution of a civil rights lawyer
Watchman | Dec 13, 2012, 12:06 PM EST
@TomSwinford. Thank you. Tom. That's decent of you. I'm a northern Prod, living in New York, who believes in both Irish unity and the promotion of friendship between Ireland and the UK (where some 400,000 Irish citizens currently live). And Niall, there IS no British Empire. That all ended 50 years ago, I'm glad to say. As for Her Majesty (as you call her – again, I suspect, with an attempt at irony), she's the one went to Dublin and Cork last year to apologise for past horrors. The Irish people took her to their hearts. Martin McGuinness shook hands with her. The rest of us have moved on. Why can't you?
Watchman | Dec 13, 2012, 11:54 AM EST
Watchman, my compliments for your excellent posts.
Niall O'Dowd | Dec 13, 2012, 11:53 AM EST
Watchman alas, you see no evil ever in her majesty's empire and their behavior -- which makes your handle somewhat ironic.
Niall O'Dowd | Dec 13, 2012, 11:53 AM EST
Niall, you have clearly crossed the line here and for you, an accomplished journalist, to make such an outrageous allegation, is disappointing to say the least. You may gain some adherents on the looney fringe but you lose the center where rational thought resides.
Collette2 | Dec 13, 2012, 11:48 AM EST
If this is true, then anything is possible, anything at all. It's a wonder she didn't "suffer a conversion" and become a cupboard catholic, to square bets just in case, a little like Constantine and more recently Iraq.
RedBranch | Dec 13, 2012, 11:39 AM EST
Getting a bit 'touchy' there Niall. Good comments from the Watchman. I would tend to agree with Paul that a public inquiry would be 'Anti Peace Process' as it would bring up the past rather like the Boston Tapes. And nobody on IC wants that! Perhaps the Madden & Finucane firm of solicitors in Belfast would like to use the British and European courts to get their public enquiry. There are after all rather well funded following a generous share of the $300m Saville public enquiry into Bloody Sunday.
Watchman | Dec 13, 2012, 11:18 AM EST
Was that an attempt at irony, Niall? "Thatcher never ordered the Belgrano to be sunk either"? You know very well that she ordered it to be sunk. That is public knowledge. It's a historical fact. Britain and Argentina were at war. The Fascist regime in Argentina had invaded the Falklands and planned on attacking British ships – which they subsequently did, with missiles newly bought for the purpose. But there is absolutely no proof that Thatcher ordered the murder of Pat Finucane. Nor did Douglas Hogg take the decision, though, admittedly, he comes badly out of the whole wretched business. The fault lay squarely with the RUC Special Branch and Army Intelligence, who surmised (a bit like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness) that they could do what they like and get away with it. Oh, and the UDA had something to do with it as well. – Walter Ellis
Proud Canadian2 | Dec 13, 2012, 11:13 AM EST
This doesn't surprise me in the least. Just like Bush, Maggie has the blood of many on her hands. After all the Iron Lady is respondsible for the death of Bobby Sands and the other hunger strikers. Keep up the good work Niall some one has to get the word out about these tyrants. The truth will come out eventually about Bush also and it won't be pretty.
Niall O'Dowd | Dec 13, 2012, 11:00 AM EST
Of course, Thatcher never ordered the Belgrano to be sunk either as we all know with the loss of 323 young lives --as it steamed away from the battlefield -- she would never be capable of anything like that ! Do you really think Hogg was speaking only for himself when he identified Finucane under parliamentary privilege?
iriishgirl | Dec 13, 2012, 10:55 AM EST
Thatcher never followed the laws of her own country - nevermind the laws of another. She did what she wanted, when she wanted, to whoever she wanted. Is this information a shock to me at all? No. I am glad it is in black and white now though. And it is not schocking that her minions are now hiding behind closed doors.
joreilly | Dec 13, 2012, 10:38 AM EST
I believed this from day 1.What bothers me is why our great Ronald Reagan never intervened ??/Neither one of that pair ever " PASSED GAS " without the other's approval !!!!The Cowboy from Ballytureen loved that witch from hell.
Watchman | Dec 13, 2012, 10:32 AM EST
Here's the difference between you, Niall, and a real journalist like, say, Ed Moloney: You take up the Sinn Fein/IRA line on Pat Finucane and make the claim that Margaret Thatcher personally ordered his death. You have no evidence for this, but sure when did that ever matter? Ed, on the other hand – whom you routinely denounce for his failure to bow the knee to Gerry Adams – is able to recall actual conversations with actual terrorists, and with others involved in the threat to lawyers at that time, which add depth and verisimilitude to his charge that the RUC and Army intelligence actively colluded in Finucane's murder. Margaret Thatcher had many failings. I would never have voted for her no matter what she said she stood for. But she did not spend her time selecting targets to be wasted by her G-men and their loyalist associates. She actually had other things to do, including building her relationship with Ronald Reagan and helping bring down the Soviet Union.
handsome68 | Dec 13, 2012, 10:30 AM EST
What kind of a headline is that, Mr. O'Dowd? "The Truth is" that that is a stupid headline. Has IrishCentral laid off its proof-reader(s)? I know that many of youse liberal omadhauns were fast-tracked through graduation because of affirmative action due to your green colo(u)r, but why not try to make up for that by doing the thinking now, later, that you didn't do sooner?
paulpaulpaul | Dec 13, 2012, 10:29 AM EST
Sick of all this finger-pointing, but seeing as how the game is on, let`s all support the full disclosure and release of the Boston College tapes. Thatcher was no Mother Teresa, but if we`re going to continue the sectarian rabble-rousing, there`s plenty blame to go around. Who ordered the assassination of Jean McConville?
warrenpoint00 | Dec 13, 2012, 10:08 AM EST
Niall O Dowd is only voicing the same opinion that we nationalists here in the north east of Ireland believe to be true. Thing is the nationalist voice in this part of Ireland was silenced by media, diplock courts and ultimately by british murderers.Until now and when the truth is delivered by the media and the courts and eventually the british it is impossible for all those pro british and anti catholic to accept. Margaret Thatcher is a murderer we Nationalists in the north of Ireland are very aware of that.Well done Niall O Dowd for accepting or voices
PhlutiePhan | Dec 13, 2012, 10:08 AM EST
The problem is that the IRA has evolved (my great uncle killed a black and tan) from espousing the greatness of the Irish Republic into a socialist "gig" with Hillary as its unofficial leader.
PhlutiePhan | Dec 13, 2012, 09:49 AM EST
This is making things up as you go along... "the truth is that ... likely .... " is it the truth? or is it likely? Or is it just what you want to be the truth? This is just the lowest form of journalism .. well it is not journalism at all but just an opinion unfounded and wishful desire to apportion blame without evidence.
Tooreenagrena | Dec 13, 2012, 09:43 AM EST
The number of british apologists that make comments on this site is remarkable for an Irish site. Or is it. I find there are many saddo unionists who trawl irish sites, on Utube for instance, with their anti irish propaganda.
EamonnDublin | Dec 13, 2012, 09:41 AM EST
Niall O'Dowd ordered the murder of three people last week. Where's my evidence? Don't be stupid - you don't need any evidence nowadays, you just KNOW!!
Towngate | Dec 13, 2012, 09:31 AM EST
@ Dr Trelawney. Well said. Another short-measured anti-British rant from the my-optic Boss, who preaches and brags of 'peace' then Posts inflamatory and insulting stuff like this! ~ Not exactly balanced, is it? ~ but what else would you expect from a swaying bar-stool!
cockney_celt | Dec 13, 2012, 09:17 AM EST
As much as I loathe Thatcher to suggest she personally ordered the killing of Finucane without a shred of proof is ridiculous.O'Dowd you're a clown and genuinely very hard to take seriously.
cillowen | Dec 13, 2012, 09:16 AM EST
as if we didn't know its how its always been and that Thatcher/Reagan pair would have put their heads together to Zap. What does the paddy do about it? NADA - mostly wanting to kiss the ring of their Saxon mousey queeenie.
luxefaire | Dec 13, 2012, 09:02 AM EST
childhoods end for the irish...its about time. this is the way the world is. the only way to change it is to shed your naievete and nip all this activity in the bud. what has happened is done, it is your education, however difficult. just realize what is up, and use the knowledge instead of burying it, as has always happened in the past. this barbarity is nothing compared to what really goes on btw.
DrTrelawney | Dec 13, 2012, 08:35 AM EST
Hang on. I have read this piece closely and I can't find a shred of evidence to suggest that Thatcher ordered the killing directly. This isn't journalism. It's man-in-the-pub waffle.
Silling | Dec 13, 2012, 08:35 AM EST
Calculus, Callous, Calumny, Calvinism - " Calumet ".
calculus | Dec 13, 2012, 07:51 AM EST
AMERICA ORDERS THE KILLING OF HUNDREDS OF CIVILIANS EVERY DAY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, VIETNAM PART 2. NOBODY MENTIONS THAT. FINUCANE CAME FRM FAMILY OF PROVOS, HAVING UNI DEGREE DIDN'T MAKE HIM BULLET PROOF, 3,000 PEOPLE DIED, THEIR FAMILIES TOOK IT ON THE CHIN AND MOVED ON . FINUCANE WAS OUT OF HIS LEAGUE, REAPED WHAT HE DUMBLY SOWED.NO JUSTICE FOR ROBERT MC CARTNEY'S FAMILY FROM IRISH AMERICANS.
daithaic | Dec 13, 2012, 07:33 AM EST
So how many Irish People other than Solicitor Pat Finucane were murdered by British Security apparatus and the Shoot to Kill policy as part of the British Problem in Ireland? Did they load up their collaborators with the bombs which killed 33 civilians and wounded almost 300 in Dublin and Monaghan in 1974, the highest number of casualties in any one day during the conflict? We need the truth, we need a judicial inquiry with the power to subpoena and cross examine NOW. And while we are at it the Irish government should agree to Ian Paisley Jr's reasonable request to release Irish Government papers to show what role the Government / Fianna Fail / Charles Haughey & Kevin Boland played in setting up and supporting the Provisional IRA. The Irish people who have been manipulated, abused, sold short and suffered need to know the truth and those who lied need to have their cover exposed. Tough on terrorism, tough on the causes of terrorism.