48 Comments

• jacersagain | Nov 14, 2011, 06:54 PM EST

  Jeeze eiriamach, you are way out of tune with reality on that last comment. The Govt's decision was, quite simply, and if I have to SHOUT it, CRASS!

• eiriamach | Nov 13, 2011, 02:31 PM EST

  The decision to close the embassy at the Vatican will not be rescinded simply because Catholics are unhappy with it or insulted by it. It will probably be a long time before the Vatican decides to return a papal nuncio to Ireland. By that time, if the economy has improved, then the government can consider whether to restore an Irish embassy to the Vatican. So Catholics have a good reason to take Enda Kenny at his word-- that the closure is for financial reasons. Insisting that the government intended the closure of the embassy as an insult to Catholics or the Vatican is really quite counter-productive.

• jacersagain | Nov 12, 2011, 11:14 AM EST

  eiriamach – of course I did not mean that Jews are anti-Christian, though many would say they are since they reject Christ as their long promised Messiah. Pls stop twisting my comments as you are wont to do often. All I’m saying is that these three men, Gilmore, Quinn and Shatter are non-Christians who hold no special respect for the Christian faith and by extension for the Holy Catholic Church. By further extension, the Govt of which they are part shows total disrespect for the vast majority of Irish people who are baptised and confirmed Catholics. >>> I see the Irish Times is publishing more articles by opinion writers showing how ill-advised, stupid and hugely disrespectful the decision to close the Vatican embassy is. The opinion writers are right; in diplomatic circles in the Vatican, in Rome and in the United Nations, diplomats are of one mind in quietly saying this was a very bad, ill-judged decision. For the good of Ireland in international eyes, the decision must be rescinded.

• eiriamach | Nov 12, 2011, 09:23 AM EST

  Jacers, it looks as though you are saying that Jews are anti-Christian. You "put [Shatter] in context with the other two anti-Christians." Surely you cannot mean that?

• jacersagain | Nov 11, 2011, 10:43 PM EST

  ciaradexy says: "The Church is a collection of paedophiles and misfits"... And your proof of that is....??? Here’s my proof that you have nothing to support what you say: There are over 1.2 billion Catholics in the world; there are some 410,000 priests serving them; there are some 3000 priests under investigation by the Church for sexual wrongs, of which 900 are for heterosexual acts, 1800 for sexual acts to adolescents chiefly of the same sex, and the remaining 300 are for sexual acts against children (paedophilia). Of the 3000 under investigation, 2,400 are USA priests. Yr false statement shows all readers here how you completely wrong you are and ignore the good work being done by the other 410,000 priests.

• jacersagain | Nov 11, 2011, 10:34 PM EST

  But cynicus, Shatter is a Jew and therefore it's a fact that he's a non-Christian. I deliberately refrained from calling him a Jew because some might take it out of context so I wanted to put him in context with the other two anti-Christians, Gilmore and Quinn, who deride the faith they were brought up in.

• cynicus | Nov 11, 2011, 01:20 PM EST

  Alan Shatter is a Jew and should not be described as a non-Christian. Have a bit of respect for those who differ from you in religion! As we were taught in our Catholic teaching, our neighbour is all mankind- even those who differ from us in religion. And is religion is all "poppycock" - then we are all of the same fix!!

• cynicus | Nov 11, 2011, 01:16 PM EST

  NO problem. It is time the Catholic Church got back to its misison and leave behind the shameful worldliness and trappings of riches and wealth. Jesus had no embassy - but plenty of ambassadors! This is a courageous move. Next move should be to restrict the flow of money from this State to the Vatican coffers. Our faith is not all about money-gathering and hoarding.

• ciaradexy | Nov 10, 2011, 07:19 PM EST

  Religion is made up nonsense. Jesus is nothing more than a historical figure. What do you think he would have to say about the sex abuse and the wealth of the catholic church if he were alive today? The church is a collection of paedophiles and misfits. Leave my country now.

• abhainn | Nov 10, 2011, 11:13 AM EST

  The diminishment of the Catholic Church in Ireland is not sad at all; it is an occasion for celebrations. Rational civilization at last! Down with moronic superstitions and up with self respect.

• jacersagain | Nov 09, 2011, 06:04 PM EST

  @ eiriamach – “The gimlet eyed crew re-asserted the primacy of canon law over civil law to protect priests from civil prosecution ”??? I didn’t see that anywhere in the Vatican’s response to Eamon Gilmore. It is a fact that the Church has not stopped civil prosecution – the number of priests in Ireland sent to prison shows that. Why do you say it is... unless you view it through your own anti-Vatican biased eyes? At least I can read the Vatican’s response and see exactly where they are refuting Gilmore and Kenny yet diplomatically bollicking them for inaccurate accusations, something that has not been highlighted by the media in the same manner or with the same emphasis with which they highlighted Kenny’s speech. The Pope and Bishops have clearly shown that they are not deaf as you suggest... the quick response to Gilmore shows that they are listening, are doing something about the evils within its ranks, are taking the matter very seriously, and are seeing priests are sent to prison... and so they should be. >>> Update on the English Court case re Benedictine Order student abuse (one of the accused monks jumped bail and they’re still looking for him...!) is that it the Court ruled that the Church (in England) can be “vicariously held accountable”. The Pope ordered a full inquiry into the abuse claims a couple of years ago, showing that he means business in dealing with it, with an apostolic visitation by a group of English Catholic Church leaders. With respect eiriamach, I have to say: All the reasoning you’ve offered does not merit the decision of the Irish Govt to close down its Vatican ambassadorial presence in Rome.

• jacersagain | Nov 09, 2011, 05:21 PM EST

  (...more) So - sorry but No, barneyjo, I can’t agree a discreet distance is the better option. If we want to change the way our Church spreads the message of Christ, then we of the Irish Catholic laity must demonstrably be at the heart of it with our faith and our country must be represented in the heart of the Vatican. The crass decision, flaunted in the face of Irish Catholics by this Govt, to vacate the embassy must be rescinded immediately. It must be and we Irish Catholics should shout that out loud in the faces of atheist Eamon Gilmore, atheist Ruarí Quinn and non-Christian Alan Shatter, all ministers in the present Irish Govt which made this decision. Shame on them all. Popes have maintained a presence in Rome since St. Peter... we Irish should too with a Vatican-dedicated embassy.

• jacersagain | Nov 09, 2011, 05:17 PM EST

  (...more) What they did was extremely brave in the world of the time that they lived in, some died for their cause. They travelled and told the world about Christ, of His Resurrection and of His simple messages: To love God, to love our neighbours and to celebrate Him in the Holy Eucharist, as He asked them to, and thereby to find peace and love for ourselves and our families. I’m humbled to realise the faith in Christ that they handed on down to people like St. Patrick and other missionaries to Ireland , just 300 yrs later, was upheld by Irish people through thick and thin through all the centuries since then, through the Reformation and even the horrendous Penal Times. But now present-day Irish people (and Govt) think they know better than St. Peter and his Apostles, better than Pope Linus, Pope Anacletus, Pope Clement the 1st (the first three Popes after St. Peter) and all the Popes in Rome since those men through to the present Pope Benedict XVI?? (so... more...)

• jacersagain | Nov 09, 2011, 04:53 PM EST

  @barneyjo et al: once again I can’t disagree with much in your last post except where you say that to maintain a discreet distance from Rome is the better option for you at this time. I’ve travelled quite a fair bit in my time yet Rome has been the city I’ve visited most often - I’ve lost count! – and would still visit again and again. No, I don’t go on formal pilgrimages (never have) but I always feel like a pilgrim when in Rome. When I am in front of the tomb of St. Peter in the Basilica there, or in front of St. Paul’s recently discovered casket in the Church of St. Paul Outside the Walls, or in front of St. Bartholomew’s funny bathtub-shaped altar reliquary in the Church on the Island in the Tiber, or look upon the two caskets of Apostles Phillip and James side by side in the Church of the Apostles just yards from Palazza Colonna, I am personally hugely affected to realise that I am physically there and doing so because of what those men did almost 2000 yrs ago. (More...)

• eiriamach | Nov 09, 2011, 11:21 AM EST

  Jacers, casualMBA and barneyjo, I see below some discussion of the topic in Tom D’s "Sidewalks." I too have no expertise on Teilhard de Chardin, having read only a little of his work in my too-conservative youth before I had any education. Now I can see its relevance. Teilhard's writings are on line to download free, so I'm reading him along with other frowned-upon theologians of his generation (most of them forbidden to teach in Catholic universities), who observed Vatican II and some still write about it. See, for ex., "Vatican II: Lost and Betrayed," by Giovanni Franzoni, Sept. 24, at Assoc. of Catholic Priests Ireland web site and recent articles by Hans Küng. Jacers, I too have read the Vatican's response to Enda Kenny and the Irish govt, and I had a very different reaction from yours. The 'gimlet-eyed' crew re-asserted the primacy of canon law as rationale for Irish bishops' protecting priests from civil prosecution. I also read of a case in the High Court in London now, in which the Church is still defending itself against charges in priest abuse cases. How, I ask, can anyone believe the apology and repentance spoken of by the Pope when Church officials are still resisting civil justice? Do they think that justice done under the auspices of the state is not as much God's work as a trial under canon law? The great burst of applause that Kenny won for speaking out had a sense of "At last, someone is doing the right thing!" about the child abuse cases. Are the pope and bishops deaf to that?

• peterson | Nov 08, 2011, 08:24 PM EST

  It is obvious that satan is hard at work thru-out the world.

• barneyjo | Nov 08, 2011, 04:28 PM EST

  @jacersagain - of course a force for "counter-good" exists. It exists and thrives wherever humanity thrives, be that inside the vatican or outside;it exists as a potential within every human being; you and I included. I am capable of acts of great goodness and of great ill towards others. I'm sure you would acknowledge that of yourself also. Saint Pio ( who I greatly admire) was never one to shy away from the truth as he saw it, and I believe his apparition was meant as a warning to the church. The account of this apparition includes the following text; "How many times my wrath was to strike them like lightning, but I was stopped by the angels and the souls who love me" That to me is a pretty powerful admonishment by Christ of his church on earth. And it is for this reason that I believe that Christ has laid bare the failings of the Church body on earth for all, including the faithful to see. The battle between darkness and light continues as it always has, but I would contend that the lines of battle are not as clear cut as you suggest. "Beware of false Prophets" we are counselled.Whoever such false prophets may or may not be both inside and outside the church is another matter for conjecture, though I have to say I believe I have identified a number of candidates within the Catholic hierarchy, here in Ireland and across the world, and I watch their activities with interest. To that end, I see no harm in maintaining a discreet, but respectful distance from the centre of the Catholic world (Rome) in the interests of self- preservation, spiritual and moral, if for no other reason!!

• jacersagain | Nov 08, 2011, 03:12 PM EST

  The Vatican’s Chief exorcist, Fr. Gabriele Amorth has strongly warned of Satan’s presence in the Vatican, especially in how some cardinals, bishops and priests are denying that Satan exists, thus denying the truth of the Gospel and creating further divisions within the Church. Amorth says the sex abuse scandals which have engulfed the Church in the US, Ireland, Germany and other countries, were proof that the Anti-Christ was waging a war against the Holy See. All the more reason for us of the laity to be on our guard, for Satan doesn’t stop badgering at us ordinary Christians to weaken our belief and trust in Christ and His Church; he can go all the way to the highest ranks of the hierarchy and has. Search online for Fr. Gabriele Amorth for some fascinating stories and interviews with him. He clearly warns of the divisions that Apostle Matthew, Saint. Pio and Poster barneyjo speaks of. Fr. Amorth’s advice is for us to ask Our Lady to wrap us in her mantle when we ordinary members of Christ’s Mystical body are assailed with satanically placed doubt, fear and threat of divisions amongst ourselves. I do not wish to discuss Satan under NO’D’s article above, so I’ll leave it at that except to opine that it is not beyond belief that Satan has invaded the Irish Govt’s Cabinet in its attitude to Rome and this decision to close the embassy, creating a divide amongst Irish people.

• jacersagain | Nov 08, 2011, 03:05 PM EST

  barneyjo, I can’t disagree with what you say at all. But I would re-emphasise my belief that the Catholic Church will be around for a very, very long time to come, longer than all who attack it for all the wrong reasons, including this Irish Govt. As for the ‘steely resolve’ bit – that is the Vatican’s own statement: “the Church in America (you could say any country) is determined to continue her ecumenical and inter-religious activities, following the pastoral guidelines laid down by Vatican Council II and subsequent Magisterium”. I have no doubt about that resolve. On yr points re Apostle Matthew and St. Pio, agreed; even the Vatican acknowledges the divisions within itself and has publicly ascribed them to Satan. In the early 70s, Pope Paul VI shocked the world when he said “The smoke of Satan has found its way into the Church through its fissures”.

• barneyjo | Nov 08, 2011, 05:46 AM EST

  @jacersagain - first of all, thank you for responding. I have to say that not all the points I raised were in direct reference to the Article, but rather in response to several assertions you made in your post, with specific reference to your assertion of assuredness regarding the continuity of the Catholic Church. I merely point out that there are many references both within scripture and in the writings of saints and scholars which clearly point to dangers and perilous consequences for the faithful, and by extension for the church if certain "paths" are followed in life. Matthew 12:25 stands on its own; not a fanciful notion of mine or anyone else other than its author. Similarly the quote from Padre Pio, now Saint Pio was written in 1914, and to my mind it is an eery fortelling of what has happened to the reputation of the Catholic Church across the world in the eyes of many of its own members. I can acknowledge that members of the Catholic Church have contributed significantly to the history of the world in so many ways. However I now have to question at what cost?? It was the late Cardinal Cody of New York I believe who once said "you cannot run a church on Our Fathers' alone" A fair point, but one which I believe was taken to excess when you consider the staggering amounts the church across the world has paid out to abuse survivors and victims!!

• warlocks | Nov 08, 2011, 02:32 AM EST

  Many other countres should cut their ties with the vatican as well. The vatican has a History of Taxing the churches & the country that they are in. The Vatican Takes & Gives nothing .It's high time to cut the cord to an out of date Roman Empire With the Holy Emperor Sitting on his Throne as a Caesar

• jacersagain | Nov 07, 2011, 08:25 PM EST

  @ barneyjo... My saying "The Church is basically saying ... are truly lost basket cases" is nothing more than a poor expression of mine and I apologise for that. I should have just said “The Church is basically saying... that it is not being accorded the respect by States and media that it should, given its raison d’être for the people of the world and all the historical help it gave States (and therefore their peoples) to establish themselves as States”. Your other points are not relevant to NO’D’s article above (I certainly do not include victims and survivors as “basket cases” – that reference was to secularising States and media people) but I would agree with most of what else you say.

• jacersagain | Nov 07, 2011, 08:19 PM EST

  (...more) The Irish media has not done anything to make a ballyhoo of Kenny’s serious mistakes in that speech or sufficiently highlight the Vatican’s response to the speech which clearly refutes, on a factual basis, Kenny’s mistaken statements. That is not responsible reporting; it is in fact downright disgracefully unfair and biased. No wonder the Vatican was miffed and recalled its Nuncio “for consultations” days after Kenny’s speech. The Vatican’s response – google or bing for RESPONSE TO MR EAMON GILMORE, TÁNAISTE AND MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE OF IRELAND, CONCERNING THE CLOYNE REPORT, 03.09.2011 - tactfully but diplomatically tears Kenny and Gilmore to pieces for relying on unfounded and unsubstantiated allegations in publicly and globally accusing the Vatican. I think this response has hugely embarrassed Kenny and Gilmore and is the real reason why smarting Bully Gilmore closed the embassy.

• jacersagain | Nov 07, 2011, 08:16 PM EST

  (...more) These problems are rooted in the way the Vatican and the Irish Govt are at loggerheads over what was said and who did what. Brief history: 14 July, Gilmore goes to Papal Nuncio with copy of Cloyne Report and demands a Vatican response; 20 July, Kenny’s viperous Dáil speech attacks Vatican and goes global; 25 July, Nuncio recalled to Rome; 03 Sept, Vatican publishes its Response to Gilmore. After following most of what was said, I think the Irish Govt has been put on the back heel and is now embarrassed for Kenny’s speech and Gilmore’s public ranting. I think the recall of the Papal Nuncio after Kenny’s Dáil speech and thus-far non-replacement of him in Dublin smacked the Govt in the face. I think this had a huge bearing on the present Irish Govt’s decision to close the Embassy (nothing to do w/ saving comparatively pitiful pennies in the wider scheme of world affairs... that’s a blatant smokescreen excuse and we all know it). It’s like them saying “No Nuncio in here, huh? Then no embassy for Vatican!” This is a very grave mistake, IMO. The Govt is behaving like smarted school ground bullies, not realising the future import of their (bad) behaviour towards the Vatican. While Kenny’s outburst speech had some rightful points, it contained factual errors, quoted the Pope as saying something he did not say and used the quote out of context to its actual sense and purpose and, worse, failed to give proof of his claim that the Vatican had tried to interfere in a child abuse investigation. (more...)

• jacersagain | Nov 07, 2011, 07:59 PM EST

  @casualMBA – I followed and enjoyed that debate between you and eiriamach under Tom Deignan’s Sidewalks but didn’t have enough knowledge or studious background on de Chardin to properly enjoin with it (I am just an ordinary family man, working in a profession which is most definitely not religious). I think you both scored well with your points and I would agree that much modernisation is required in the way the Church goes about Christ’s mission. However, with the greatest respect for you both, I don’t think it relates to Niall O’Dowd’s points on the deep problems between the present Irish Govt and the Vatican. (More...)

• casualMBA | Nov 07, 2011, 10:15 AM EST

  The RCC's purpose is not to issue punitive sanctions for adaptive tradition. It is to Facilitate a person's and/or community's faith, rather than everlasingly Define. Empahsis 2: Adaption (Limbo, St. Christopher, Meat on Friday, the "new" (or replacement) Nicene Creed!!!) is quite evidently within the purview of options within the RCC heirarchy's self-definition of its role in preserving(?) Christ's message...And,now, for further focus on an issue germane to the mass "exodus" from attending Mass, where is the spirit of inclusiveness from Vatican II in the Church's history of life issues? Rejecting the pill, making virtually every woman on earth an additionally guilt laden sinner; an abortion or a divorce in the family? a petri dish in society? genenome sequences, and their capabilities? Are these going to go away? Biotechnology has its Galileos. Demographics do not lie. Family sizes are not from abstinence. People are getting re-married in the world where not everyone finds their lifemate. The ONLY mechanism is to DENY the VALIDITY of one's First Marriage, and CHILDREN?!?! The church, and faithful Catholics. eiriamach, need to heed the concept of an "evolving theology" (as outlined by T. du Chardin, and others)and get in touch with Christ's message in THIS Millenium. Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/sidewalks/rebelling-against-the-catholic-church---the-nuns-versus-the-cardinals-132777963.html#ixzz1d23A0o7F

• casualMBA | Nov 07, 2011, 10:13 AM EST

  @jacersagain - since the issue overlap is substantial I thought would cross-pollinate an excerpt from a discussion Eir and I are having, towit ...Eiriamach, I suspect we (Irish--American and frustrated Vatican II Catholics) may be "preaching to the choir," but I will volley over the net a time or two with you. I agree with much of your statement yet it moves me to emphasize a couple of things, and push furhter on an issue (and mistaken conservative Catholic vector, to my mind, heart, and spirit)that provides cause for the (continued) "exodus." Emphasis 1: the purpose of the RCC as an institution, I assert, is to sustain (and convey)Christ's message in a changing and sometimes contrary world. It is not to put "authority behind (unchanging) doctrine." (con'd)

• BARNEYKX | Nov 07, 2011, 08:07 AM EST

  I HOPE IT MEANS ANOTHER CARRIAGE OF THE GRAVEY TRAIN

• barneyjo | Nov 06, 2011, 04:44 PM EST

  @jacersagain - "The Church is basically saying that those who reject or dismiss the Church’s mission of evangelisation for Christ or fail to give it the prominence it deserves in the lives of people are truly lost Basket Cases." I'm wondering if you would included the thousands of victims and survivors of clerical abuse in this narrative description? I acknowledge and accept your premise that this is the ground on which you stand. In doing so, however I would point out your certainty about the continuance of the Catholic Church in its present guise is somewhat premature. Even Christ had a view on this; Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand" (Matthew 12:25)Which then leaves the question, who had caused the division within the church? Who has failed in both witness and ministry? In my view it is the church "body politic" who has failed you, me and millions like us, and continues to do. Why even a Saint of our own church has said as much; "The ingratitude and the sleep of my ministers increase the agony for me. They badly respond to my love! The greater torment for me is that these people add their contempt to their indifference and disbelief" (Saint Pio - Apparitions)Steely resolve?; most certainly, but not to the end you propose or identify. "A House divideded.........!!! most ceratinly, but ready also to be re-cast in the way the Father wishes it to be!!

• jacersagain | Nov 06, 2011, 07:17 AM EST

  (...cont’d from below) You could say the same applies to the Church and the Irish State’s govt – just substitute ‘Church in Ireland’ for ‘Church in America’ in the RCC statement given below. The deep problems that Niall O’Dowd speaks of above are not exclusive to Ireland and its profit-driven, media-led secularisation and its apoplectic political interference. One cannot but note the steely resolve of the Church in the last sentence of the statement... a papal crozier-lashing for civil authorities and secular media (and their “generic concept”) if ever there was one. The Church is basically saying that those who reject or dismiss the Church’s mission of evangelisation for Christ or fail to give it the prominence it deserves in the lives of people are truly lost Basket Cases. Governments and media come and go but the Church will always remain, even for people of governments and the media.

• jacersagain | Nov 06, 2011, 07:14 AM EST

  (...cont’d from below) “This strategy followed by the civil authorities means that ecumenical and inter-religious dialogue comes to be replaced by the generic concept of 'inter-religious relations'. Thus, not only are all religions considered as spiritual phenomena of equal status, but there is a tendency to see religion as a tool at the service of political life. Nonetheless, the Church in America is determined to continue her ecumenical and inter-religious activities, following the pastoral guidelines laid down by Vatican Council II and subsequent Magisterium". (cont’d...)

• jacersagain | Nov 06, 2011, 07:13 AM EST

  warlocks is right in a way. In fact the Roman Catholic Church KNOWS what’s happening in the world AND it knows the reasons why. Just a few days ago, it issued the following statement in relation to the USA (Hafta split it in two: "In the field of ecumenical and inter-religious dialogue, there is sometimes a certain level of interference by States which, while proclaiming themselves as secular, to all intents and purposes tend to consider the Catholic Church as just one among many other religious denominations. In this way they ignore her true nature and the incontestable historical role she played in the first evangelisation of the continent, and in the formation of the identity of individual nations. (Cont’d...)

• jacersagain | Nov 06, 2011, 07:08 AM EST

  warlocks is right in a way. In fact the Roman Catholic Church KNOWS what’s happening in the world AND it knows the reasons why. Just a few days ago, it issued the following statement in relation to the USA: "In the field of ecumenical and inter-religious dialogue, there is sometimes a certain level of interference by States which, while proclaiming themselves as secular, to all intents and purposes tend to consider the Catholic Church as just one among many other religious denominations. In this way they ignore her true nature and the incontestable historical role she played in the first evangelisation of the continent, and in the formation of the identity of individual nations. This strategy followed by the civil authorities means that ecumenical and inter-religious dialogue comes to be replaced by the generic concept of 'inter-religious relations'. Thus, not only are all religions considered as spiritual phenomena of equal status, but there is a tendency to see religion as a tool at the service of political life. Nonetheless, the Church in America is determined to continue her ecumenical and inter-religious activities, following the pastoral guidelines laid down by Vatican Council II and subsequent Magisterium". (Cont’d...)

• warlocks | Nov 06, 2011, 01:09 AM EST

  I HATE to say it But i think the Roman Catholic Church is all but Dead in Ireland it's lost its Luster it's almost Dead in France & England and in slow Decay in America. it's going to Hell in a Basket .

• seanomelbourne | Nov 05, 2011, 08:27 PM EDT

  Who needs a vatican embassy as the Italian embassy will suffice.

• jacersagain | Nov 05, 2011, 07:28 PM EDT

  I agree with Niall where he says “The Holy See will not be pleased at this move, signalling as it inevitably does a lessening of their influence in Ireland.” Yep, no more favourable influence of the Vatican for Ireland. Without an ambassador to the Holy See present in Rome, we’ll be cast out of its wide reaching diplomatic circles and its influential persuasion of other countries to favour Ireland in many ways. We’re goners. Thanks, Irish Government, thanks very fugin’ much. Stupidity has a new face to show the world - that of the present Irish Govt.

• seanomelbourne | Nov 04, 2011, 06:26 PM EDT

  barneyjo I suppose both answers are correct the age of consent in Italy is 14(and in some cases 13) if the other partner is 3yrs. old or less. Otherwise the age of consent is 16.The vatican AoC is 14yrs.The 12yr. old AoC is outdated.

• hybernia | Nov 04, 2011, 02:44 PM EDT

  GOOD.

• Nicomax | Nov 04, 2011, 01:18 PM EDT

  No religion should ever be formalized in any country's constitution. Nothing good ever comes from that, and De Valera was wrong in urging such for Ireland. England should drop the Church of England as well, and all those Middle-East countries with Islamic law as their foundation are doing themselves no favor.

• Rebelforce | Nov 04, 2011, 11:15 AM EDT

  This is a good example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

• cillowen | Nov 04, 2011, 10:56 AM EDT

  test

• eiriamach | Nov 04, 2011, 10:40 AM EDT

  The strangest part of these continuing hostilities is the uncanny silence of the Irish bishops about events. They seem to be just unconcerned onlookers who cannot manage to frame a comment or question, or even a reply to the Taoiseach's call for cooperation with Irish law on child abuse.

• aoibhinn | Nov 04, 2011, 09:53 AM EDT

  The British spent 800 years trying to run the Catholic church out of Ireland! The Catholic Church will have run itself out of Ireland in less than 80 years !

• merefalow | Nov 04, 2011, 09:23 AM EDT

  whats the point of writing comments if you censor them,there was nothing wrong in my critisism of the church that deserves censorship..some things dont change..

• cormacmac | Nov 03, 2011, 09:06 PM EDT

  It is a splendid move by our Government even if Enda Kenny and all his Ministers will be stricken with a horrific plague inside the next fortnight and will only survive for 48 hours at most!

• barneyjo | Nov 03, 2011, 08:56 PM EDT

  @seanomelbourne - not so. As I understand it, the age of consent in the Vatican is 14 (same as Italy) The process of automatic adoption of changes to Italian State civil law by the Vatican came to an end in 2009. However the adoption of the national age of consent (14yrs) occurred previous to this change, therefore it stands.

• seanomelbourne | Nov 03, 2011, 06:59 PM EDT

  Learned recently tha the age of consent in the vatican is 12 this was part of the deal under the Lateran Act(1924).Altough Italy changed the age of consent to 16 in 1924 after the act was signed the Vatican has not changed the age of consent.

• barneyjo | Nov 03, 2011, 06:47 PM EDT

  I just read comments by a poster on another site who says he will rennounce his Irish citizenship in favour of a British identity over the head of this, until such times as the Government "sees sense". Looks as if the poster will have a long wait!!