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Home Page > Blogs > News blogs > Periscope > Shock closure of Irish Embassy in Vatican Announced -- Further evidence of deep problems between Ireland and Holy See

Periscope by Niall O'Dowd

Shock closure of Irish Embassy in Vatican Announced -- Further evidence of deep problems between Ireland and Holy See

Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2011 at 05:02 PM

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peterson | Nov 08, 2011, 08:24 PM EST

It is obvious that satan is hard at work thru-out the world.

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barneyjo | Nov 08, 2011, 04:28 PM EST

@jacersagain - of course a force for "counter-good" exists. It exists and thrives wherever humanity thrives, be that inside the vatican or outside;it exists as a potential within every human being; you and I included. I am capable of acts of great goodness and of great ill towards others. I'm sure you would acknowledge that of yourself also. Saint Pio ( who I greatly admire) was never one to shy away from the truth as he saw it, and I believe his apparition was meant as a warning to the church. The account of this apparition includes the following text; "How many times my wrath was to strike them like lightning, but I was stopped by the angels and the souls who love me" That to me is a pretty powerful admonishment by Christ of his church on earth. And it is for this reason that I believe that Christ has laid bare the failings of the Church body on earth for all, including the faithful to see. The battle between darkness and light continues as it always has, but I would contend that the lines of battle are not as clear cut as you suggest. "Beware of false Prophets" we are counselled.Whoever such false prophets may or may not be both inside and outside the church is another matter for conjecture, though I have to say I believe I have identified a number of candidates within the Catholic hierarchy, here in Ireland and across the world, and I watch their activities with interest. To that end, I see no harm in maintaining a discreet, but respectful distance from the centre of the Catholic world (Rome) in the interests of self- preservation, spiritual and moral, if for no other reason!!

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jacersagain | Nov 08, 2011, 03:12 PM EST

The Vatican’s Chief exorcist, Fr. Gabriele Amorth has strongly warned of Satan’s presence in the Vatican, especially in how some cardinals, bishops and priests are denying that Satan exists, thus denying the truth of the Gospel and creating further divisions within the Church. Amorth says the sex abuse scandals which have engulfed the Church in the US, Ireland, Germany and other countries, were proof that the Anti-Christ was waging a war against the Holy See. All the more reason for us of the laity to be on our guard, for Satan doesn’t stop badgering at us ordinary Christians to weaken our belief and trust in Christ and His Church; he can go all the way to the highest ranks of the hierarchy and has. Search online for Fr. Gabriele Amorth for some fascinating stories and interviews with him. He clearly warns of the divisions that Apostle Matthew, Saint. Pio and Poster barneyjo speaks of. Fr. Amorth’s advice is for us to ask Our Lady to wrap us in her mantle when we ordinary members of Christ’s Mystical body are assailed with satanically placed doubt, fear and threat of divisions amongst ourselves. I do not wish to discuss Satan under NO’D’s article above, so I’ll leave it at that except to opine that it is not beyond belief that Satan has invaded the Irish Govt’s Cabinet in its attitude to Rome and this decision to close the embassy, creating a divide amongst Irish people.

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jacersagain | Nov 08, 2011, 03:05 PM EST

barneyjo, I can’t disagree with what you say at all. But I would re-emphasise my belief that the Catholic Church will be around for a very, very long time to come, longer than all who attack it for all the wrong reasons, including this Irish Govt. As for the ‘steely resolve’ bit – that is the Vatican’s own statement: “the Church in America (you could say any country) is determined to continue her ecumenical and inter-religious activities, following the pastoral guidelines laid down by Vatican Council II and subsequent Magisterium”. I have no doubt about that resolve. On yr points re Apostle Matthew and St. Pio, agreed; even the Vatican acknowledges the divisions within itself and has publicly ascribed them to Satan. In the early 70s, Pope Paul VI shocked the world when he said “The smoke of Satan has found its way into the Church through its fissures”.

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barneyjo | Nov 08, 2011, 05:46 AM EST

@jacersagain - first of all, thank you for responding. I have to say that not all the points I raised were in direct reference to the Article, but rather in response to several assertions you made in your post, with specific reference to your assertion of assuredness regarding the continuity of the Catholic Church. I merely point out that there are many references both within scripture and in the writings of saints and scholars which clearly point to dangers and perilous consequences for the faithful, and by extension for the church if certain "paths" are followed in life. Matthew 12:25 stands on its own; not a fanciful notion of mine or anyone else other than its author. Similarly the quote from Padre Pio, now Saint Pio was written in 1914, and to my mind it is an eery fortelling of what has happened to the reputation of the Catholic Church across the world in the eyes of many of its own members. I can acknowledge that members of the Catholic Church have contributed significantly to the history of the world in so many ways. However I now have to question at what cost?? It was the late Cardinal Cody of New York I believe who once said "you cannot run a church on Our Fathers' alone" A fair point, but one which I believe was taken to excess when you consider the staggering amounts the church across the world has paid out to abuse survivors and victims!!

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warlocks | Nov 08, 2011, 02:32 AM EST

Many other countres should cut their ties with the vatican as well. The vatican has a History of Taxing the churches & the country that they are in. The Vatican Takes & Gives nothing .It's high time to cut the cord to an out of date Roman Empire With the Holy Emperor Sitting on his Throne as a Caesar

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jacersagain | Nov 07, 2011, 08:25 PM EST

@ barneyjo... My saying "The Church is basically saying ... are truly lost basket cases" is nothing more than a poor expression of mine and I apologise for that. I should have just said “The Church is basically saying... that it is not being accorded the respect by States and media that it should, given its raison d’être for the people of the world and all the historical help it gave States (and therefore their peoples) to establish themselves as States”. Your other points are not relevant to NO’D’s article above (I certainly do not include victims and survivors as “basket cases” – that reference was to secularising States and media people) but I would agree with most of what else you say.

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jacersagain | Nov 07, 2011, 08:19 PM EST

(...more) The Irish media has not done anything to make a ballyhoo of Kenny’s serious mistakes in that speech or sufficiently highlight the Vatican’s response to the speech which clearly refutes, on a factual basis, Kenny’s mistaken statements. That is not responsible reporting; it is in fact downright disgracefully unfair and biased. No wonder the Vatican was miffed and recalled its Nuncio “for consultations” days after Kenny’s speech. The Vatican’s response – google or bing for RESPONSE TO MR EAMON GILMORE, TÁNAISTE AND MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE OF IRELAND, CONCERNING THE CLOYNE REPORT, 03.09.2011 - tactfully but diplomatically tears Kenny and Gilmore to pieces for relying on unfounded and unsubstantiated allegations in publicly and globally accusing the Vatican. I think this response has hugely embarrassed Kenny and Gilmore and is the real reason why smarting Bully Gilmore closed the embassy.

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jacersagain | Nov 07, 2011, 08:16 PM EST

(...more) These problems are rooted in the way the Vatican and the Irish Govt are at loggerheads over what was said and who did what. Brief history: 14 July, Gilmore goes to Papal Nuncio with copy of Cloyne Report and demands a Vatican response; 20 July, Kenny’s viperous Dáil speech attacks Vatican and goes global; 25 July, Nuncio recalled to Rome; 03 Sept, Vatican publishes its Response to Gilmore. After following most of what was said, I think the Irish Govt has been put on the back heel and is now embarrassed for Kenny’s speech and Gilmore’s public ranting. I think the recall of the Papal Nuncio after Kenny’s Dáil speech and thus-far non-replacement of him in Dublin smacked the Govt in the face. I think this had a huge bearing on the present Irish Govt’s decision to close the Embassy (nothing to do w/ saving comparatively pitiful pennies in the wider scheme of world affairs... that’s a blatant smokescreen excuse and we all know it). It’s like them saying “No Nuncio in here, huh? Then no embassy for Vatican!” This is a very grave mistake, IMO. The Govt is behaving like smarted school ground bullies, not realising the future import of their (bad) behaviour towards the Vatican. While Kenny’s outburst speech had some rightful points, it contained factual errors, quoted the Pope as saying something he did not say and used the quote out of context to its actual sense and purpose and, worse, failed to give proof of his claim that the Vatican had tried to interfere in a child abuse investigation. (more...)

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jacersagain | Nov 07, 2011, 07:59 PM EST

@casualMBA – I followed and enjoyed that debate between you and eiriamach under Tom Deignan’s Sidewalks but didn’t have enough knowledge or studious background on de Chardin to properly enjoin with it (I am just an ordinary family man, working in a profession which is most definitely not religious). I think you both scored well with your points and I would agree that much modernisation is required in the way the Church goes about Christ’s mission. However, with the greatest respect for you both, I don’t think it relates to Niall O’Dowd’s points on the deep problems between the present Irish Govt and the Vatican. (More...)

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casualMBA | Nov 07, 2011, 10:15 AM EST

The RCC's purpose is not to issue punitive sanctions for adaptive tradition. It is to Facilitate a person's and/or community's faith, rather than everlasingly Define. Empahsis 2: Adaption (Limbo, St. Christopher, Meat on Friday, the "new" (or replacement) Nicene Creed!!!) is quite evidently within the purview of options within the RCC heirarchy's self-definition of its role in preserving(?) Christ's message...And,now, for further focus on an issue germane to the mass "exodus" from attending Mass, where is the spirit of inclusiveness from Vatican II in the Church's history of life issues? Rejecting the pill, making virtually every woman on earth an additionally guilt laden sinner; an abortion or a divorce in the family? a petri dish in society? genenome sequences, and their capabilities? Are these going to go away? Biotechnology has its Galileos. Demographics do not lie. Family sizes are not from abstinence. People are getting re-married in the world where not everyone finds their lifemate. The ONLY mechanism is to DENY the VALIDITY of one's First Marriage, and CHILDREN?!?! The church, and faithful Catholics. eiriamach, need to heed the concept of an "evolving theology" (as outlined by T. du Chardin, and others)and get in touch with Christ's message in THIS Millenium. Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/sidewalks/rebelling-against-the-catholic-church---the-nuns-versus-the-cardinals-132777963.html#ixzz1d23A0o7F

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casualMBA | Nov 07, 2011, 10:13 AM EST

@jacersagain - since the issue overlap is substantial I thought would cross-pollinate an excerpt from a discussion Eir and I are having, towit ...Eiriamach, I suspect we (Irish--American and frustrated Vatican II Catholics) may be "preaching to the choir," but I will volley over the net a time or two with you. I agree with much of your statement yet it moves me to emphasize a couple of things, and push furhter on an issue (and mistaken conservative Catholic vector, to my mind, heart, and spirit)that provides cause for the (continued) "exodus." Emphasis 1: the purpose of the RCC as an institution, I assert, is to sustain (and convey)Christ's message in a changing and sometimes contrary world. It is not to put "authority behind (unchanging) doctrine." (con'd)

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BARNEYKX | Nov 07, 2011, 08:07 AM EST

I HOPE IT MEANS ANOTHER CARRIAGE OF THE GRAVEY TRAIN

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barneyjo | Nov 06, 2011, 04:44 PM EST

@jacersagain - "The Church is basically saying that those who reject or dismiss the Church’s mission of evangelisation for Christ or fail to give it the prominence it deserves in the lives of people are truly lost Basket Cases." I'm wondering if you would included the thousands of victims and survivors of clerical abuse in this narrative description? I acknowledge and accept your premise that this is the ground on which you stand. In doing so, however I would point out your certainty about the continuance of the Catholic Church in its present guise is somewhat premature. Even Christ had a view on this; Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand" (Matthew 12:25)Which then leaves the question, who had caused the division within the church? Who has failed in both witness and ministry? In my view it is the church "body politic" who has failed you, me and millions like us, and continues to do. Why even a Saint of our own church has said as much; "The ingratitude and the sleep of my ministers increase the agony for me. They badly respond to my love! The greater torment for me is that these people add their contempt to their indifference and disbelief" (Saint Pio - Apparitions)Steely resolve?; most certainly, but not to the end you propose or identify. "A House divideded.........!!! most ceratinly, but ready also to be re-cast in the way the Father wishes it to be!!

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jacersagain | Nov 06, 2011, 07:17 AM EST

(...cont’d from below) You could say the same applies to the Church and the Irish State’s govt – just substitute ‘Church in Ireland’ for ‘Church in America’ in the RCC statement given below. The deep problems that Niall O’Dowd speaks of above are not exclusive to Ireland and its profit-driven, media-led secularisation and its apoplectic political interference. One cannot but note the steely resolve of the Church in the last sentence of the statement... a papal crozier-lashing for civil authorities and secular media (and their “generic concept”) if ever there was one. The Church is basically saying that those who reject or dismiss the Church’s mission of evangelisation for Christ or fail to give it the prominence it deserves in the lives of people are truly lost Basket Cases. Governments and media come and go but the Church will always remain, even for people of governments and the media.

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