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by Niall O'Dowd

Shock closure of Irish Embassy in Vatican Announced -- Further evidence of deep problems between Ireland and Holy See

Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2011 at 05:02 PM
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Plaque outside the Irish Embassy in the Vatcian
The closure of their embassy at the Vatican by the Irish government is a startling move.

While they couched it in terms of it saving money, the fact is that the Vatican posting, in particular, was considered one of the most high prestige posts in the world.

It is easy to see why. The Papal Nuncio, the Holy See Ambassador in Dublin, was always considered dean of the diplomatic corps there and given extra respect and access.

It would have been inconceivable a few years ago that Ireland would turn its back on its Vatican outpost.

It is a measure of how sadly diminished the Catholic Church is in Ireland that a government now feels enabled to take this step.

Eamon De Valera even enshrined the church's special position in the Irish constitution.

Years ago such a move would have resulted in a belt of the crozier sufficient to put the government back in line very quickly.

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There will be no such threat this time.

The Vatican has previously withdrawn their Nuncio in Dublin, Giuseppe Leanza, after the Irish government had criticized them over the sex abuse scandals.


New Prime Minster Enda Kenny quickly made his mark when he accused the Vatican of taking part in the cover up over abusive priests.

He was applauded by a scandal weary nation for doing so.

Those abuse cases have sucked the fight out of the church.

A recent survey conducted by a religious group showed that 50 percent of the Irish people no longer trusted the church.

That is an incredible number for a church that once had over 90 per cent mass attendance and the ear of every major politician.

The closure of the embassy is another extraordinary step in the evolving relationship between Dublin and the Vatican.

The Holy See will not be pleased at this move, signaling as it inevitably does a lessening of their influence in Ireland.

It will be interesting to see their response.

See more: Irish Government, Vatican, Irish Catholic Church, News from Ireland



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48 Comments

15 - 48 | See all comments

jacersagain | Nov 14, 2011, 06:54 PM EST
Jeeze eiriamach, you are way out of tune with reality on that last comment. The Govt's decision was, quite simply, and if I have to SHOUT it, CRASS!

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eiriamach | Nov 13, 2011, 02:31 PM EST
The decision to close the embassy at the Vatican will not be rescinded simply because Catholics are unhappy with it or insulted by it. It will probably be a long time before the Vatican decides to return a papal nuncio to Ireland. By that time, if the economy has improved, then the government can consider whether to restore an Irish embassy to the Vatican. So Catholics have a good reason to take Enda Kenny at his word-- that the closure is for financial reasons. Insisting that the government intended the closure of the embassy as an insult to Catholics or the Vatican is really quite counter-productive.

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jacersagain | Nov 12, 2011, 11:14 AM EST
eiriamach – of course I did not mean that Jews are anti-Christian, though many would say they are since they reject Christ as their long promised Messiah. Pls stop twisting my comments as you are wont to do often. All I’m saying is that these three men, Gilmore, Quinn and Shatter are non-Christians who hold no special respect for the Christian faith and by extension for the Holy Catholic Church. By further extension, the Govt of which they are part shows total disrespect for the vast majority of Irish people who are baptised and confirmed Catholics. >>> I see the Irish Times is publishing more articles by opinion writers showing how ill-advised, stupid and hugely disrespectful the decision to close the Vatican embassy is. The opinion writers are right; in diplomatic circles in the Vatican, in Rome and in the United Nations, diplomats are of one mind in quietly saying this was a very bad, ill-judged decision. For the good of Ireland in international eyes, the decision must be rescinded.

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eiriamach | Nov 12, 2011, 09:23 AM EST
Jacers, it looks as though you are saying that Jews are anti-Christian. You "put [Shatter] in context with the other two anti-Christians." Surely you cannot mean that?

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jacersagain | Nov 11, 2011, 10:43 PM EST
ciaradexy says: "The Church is a collection of paedophiles and misfits"... And your proof of that is....??? Here’s my proof that you have nothing to support what you say: There are over 1.2 billion Catholics in the world; there are some 410,000 priests serving them; there are some 3000 priests under investigation by the Church for sexual wrongs, of which 900 are for heterosexual acts, 1800 for sexual acts to adolescents chiefly of the same sex, and the remaining 300 are for sexual acts against children (paedophilia). Of the 3000 under investigation, 2,400 are USA priests. Yr false statement shows all readers here how you completely wrong you are and ignore the good work being done by the other 410,000 priests.

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jacersagain | Nov 11, 2011, 10:34 PM EST
But cynicus, Shatter is a Jew and therefore it's a fact that he's a non-Christian. I deliberately refrained from calling him a Jew because some might take it out of context so I wanted to put him in context with the other two anti-Christians, Gilmore and Quinn, who deride the faith they were brought up in.

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cynicus | Nov 11, 2011, 01:20 PM EST
Alan Shatter is a Jew and should not be described as a non-Christian. Have a bit of respect for those who differ from you in religion! As we were taught in our Catholic teaching, our neighbour is all mankind- even those who differ from us in religion. And is religion is all "poppycock" - then we are all of the same fix!!

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cynicus | Nov 11, 2011, 01:16 PM EST
NO problem. It is time the Catholic Church got back to its misison and leave behind the shameful worldliness and trappings of riches and wealth. Jesus had no embassy - but plenty of ambassadors! This is a courageous move. Next move should be to restrict the flow of money from this State to the Vatican coffers. Our faith is not all about money-gathering and hoarding.

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ciaradexy | Nov 10, 2011, 07:19 PM EST
Religion is made up nonsense. Jesus is nothing more than a historical figure. What do you think he would have to say about the sex abuse and the wealth of the catholic church if he were alive today? The church is a collection of paedophiles and misfits. Leave my country now.

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abhainn | Nov 10, 2011, 11:13 AM EST
The diminishment of the Catholic Church in Ireland is not sad at all; it is an occasion for celebrations. Rational civilization at last! Down with moronic superstitions and up with self respect.

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jacersagain | Nov 09, 2011, 06:04 PM EST
@ eiriamach – “The gimlet eyed crew re-asserted the primacy of canon law over civil law to protect priests from civil prosecution ”??? I didn’t see that anywhere in the Vatican’s response to Eamon Gilmore. It is a fact that the Church has not stopped civil prosecution – the number of priests in Ireland sent to prison shows that. Why do you say it is... unless you view it through your own anti-Vatican biased eyes? At least I can read the Vatican’s response and see exactly where they are refuting Gilmore and Kenny yet diplomatically bollicking them for inaccurate accusations, something that has not been highlighted by the media in the same manner or with the same emphasis with which they highlighted Kenny’s speech. The Pope and Bishops have clearly shown that they are not deaf as you suggest... the quick response to Gilmore shows that they are listening, are doing something about the evils within its ranks, are taking the matter very seriously, and are seeing priests are sent to prison... and so they should be. >>> Update on the English Court case re Benedictine Order student abuse (one of the accused monks jumped bail and they’re still looking for him...!) is that it the Court ruled that the Church (in England) can be “vicariously held accountable”. The Pope ordered a full inquiry into the abuse claims a couple of years ago, showing that he means business in dealing with it, with an apostolic visitation by a group of English Catholic Church leaders. With respect eiriamach, I have to say: All the reasoning you’ve offered does not merit the decision of the Irish Govt to close down its Vatican ambassadorial presence in Rome.

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jacersagain | Nov 09, 2011, 05:21 PM EST
(...more) So - sorry but No, barneyjo, I can’t agree a discreet distance is the better option. If we want to change the way our Church spreads the message of Christ, then we of the Irish Catholic laity must demonstrably be at the heart of it with our faith and our country must be represented in the heart of the Vatican. The crass decision, flaunted in the face of Irish Catholics by this Govt, to vacate the embassy must be rescinded immediately. It must be and we Irish Catholics should shout that out loud in the faces of atheist Eamon Gilmore, atheist Ruarí Quinn and non-Christian Alan Shatter, all ministers in the present Irish Govt which made this decision. Shame on them all. Popes have maintained a presence in Rome since St. Peter... we Irish should too with a Vatican-dedicated embassy.

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jacersagain | Nov 09, 2011, 05:17 PM EST
(...more) What they did was extremely brave in the world of the time that they lived in, some died for their cause. They travelled and told the world about Christ, of His Resurrection and of His simple messages: To love God, to love our neighbours and to celebrate Him in the Holy Eucharist, as He asked them to, and thereby to find peace and love for ourselves and our families. I’m humbled to realise the faith in Christ that they handed on down to people like St. Patrick and other missionaries to Ireland , just 300 yrs later, was upheld by Irish people through thick and thin through all the centuries since then, through the Reformation and even the horrendous Penal Times. But now present-day Irish people (and Govt) think they know better than St. Peter and his Apostles, better than Pope Linus, Pope Anacletus, Pope Clement the 1st (the first three Popes after St. Peter) and all the Popes in Rome since those men through to the present Pope Benedict XVI?? (so... more...)

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jacersagain | Nov 09, 2011, 04:53 PM EST
@barneyjo et al: once again I can’t disagree with much in your last post except where you say that to maintain a discreet distance from Rome is the better option for you at this time. I’ve travelled quite a fair bit in my time yet Rome has been the city I’ve visited most often - I’ve lost count! – and would still visit again and again. No, I don’t go on formal pilgrimages (never have) but I always feel like a pilgrim when in Rome. When I am in front of the tomb of St. Peter in the Basilica there, or in front of St. Paul’s recently discovered casket in the Church of St. Paul Outside the Walls, or in front of St. Bartholomew’s funny bathtub-shaped altar reliquary in the Church on the Island in the Tiber, or look upon the two caskets of Apostles Phillip and James side by side in the Church of the Apostles just yards from Palazza Colonna, I am personally hugely affected to realise that I am physically there and doing so because of what those men did almost 2000 yrs ago. (More...)

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eiriamach | Nov 09, 2011, 11:21 AM EST
Jacers, casualMBA and barneyjo, I see below some discussion of the topic in Tom D’s "Sidewalks." I too have no expertise on Teilhard de Chardin, having read only a little of his work in my too-conservative youth before I had any education. Now I can see its relevance. Teilhard's writings are on line to download free, so I'm reading him along with other frowned-upon theologians of his generation (most of them forbidden to teach in Catholic universities), who observed Vatican II and some still write about it. See, for ex., "Vatican II: Lost and Betrayed," by Giovanni Franzoni, Sept. 24, at Assoc. of Catholic Priests Ireland web site and recent articles by Hans Küng. Jacers, I too have read the Vatican's response to Enda Kenny and the Irish govt, and I had a very different reaction from yours. The 'gimlet-eyed' crew re-asserted the primacy of canon law as rationale for Irish bishops' protecting priests from civil prosecution. I also read of a case in the High Court in London now, in which the Church is still defending itself against charges in priest abuse cases. How, I ask, can anyone believe the apology and repentance spoken of by the Pope when Church officials are still resisting civil justice? Do they think that justice done under the auspices of the state is not as much God's work as a trial under canon law? The great burst of applause that Kenny won for speaking out had a sense of "At last, someone is doing the right thing!" about the child abuse cases. Are the pope and bishops deaf to that?

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