New research shows Catholic majority now likely in Northern Ireland - New figures show trend is continuing and now inevitable
By: Niall O'Dowd | Published Thursday, January 5, 2012, 10:30 AM | Updated Thursday, January 5, 2012, 10:30 AM
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| Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness, First Minister Peter Robinson, Taoiseach Enda Kenny (Credit: NGNS) |
In a stunning
column that turns the future on its head,
Irish Times columnist Gerry Moriarty has shown that a Catholic majority in Northern Ireland will occur much faster than had previously been thought.
There has been a clear and inexorable pattern of Catholic population increasing while the Protestant population declines.
However, Moriarty presents it in a new and stark way and asks several critical questions.
Key of course is what will the upcoming Catholic majority mean for Northern Ireland?
But first to the facts and figures.
Moriarty opens his column by saying:
"The British and
Irish governments and the people of Northern Ireland are facing the prospect – and sooner than most people might think – of how to manage a transformed constitutional situation where the majority in the North are likely to be from a
Catholic background."
He goes on:
"The figures are revealed in the statistics: there are now significantly more Catholics than Protestants in nursery, primary, second- and third-level education in Northern Ireland. If that trend continues, and it’s difficult to see a reason why it should not, then in another generation or so the majority population should be Catholic or from a Catholic background – people of voting age, most of whose immediate antecedents are nationalist in their political outlook.
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Read More:Leading Irish journalist leaves Catholic Church over stance on women priests - VIDEOMore news from Ireland on IrishCentral‘Union Jack' flying above Dublin could help Republic’s tourism industry___________________
He pointed out that figures from Northern Ireland’s Department of Education for 2010/11 show 120,415 Protestants and 163,693 Catholics in the North’s schools.
Those figures that is a breakdown of 57.6 per cent Catholic, 42.4 per cent Protestant.....figures for 2009/10 obtained from the Higher Education Statistics Agency show that at university level the trend has continued
"In total... at third level there are 20,995 students (59.3 per cent) from a Catholic background and 14,410 (40.7 per cent) from a Protestant background." Moriarty writes
In the 2001 census the figures showed Protestants at 53.1 per cent and Catholics at 43.8 per cent. The 2011 census is expected to show that gap is much narrower.By the 2021 census the change will be dramatic
In the last election 48 per cent voted for Unionist parties and 42 per cent for nationalists. The rest voted cross community, mainly Alliance.
Of course, there is no certainty that Catholics would vote for a United Ireland, indeed, many say they would not.
However, with Scotland trembling on the edge of major devolution and conceivably outright independence, the old United Kingdom is not what it once was.
One could say the same about the Irish Republic of course, and many Catholics, now that they share power in
Northern Ireland would hardly want to join up with a country in the throes of a terrible economic malaise.
But how a Catholic majority would work out is unpredictable. But it seems certain that it will happen within a generation.
The Protestant state for a Protestant people created against the wishes of Catholics corralled in 1921 into the new state may find itself on the ash heap in the future.
As Yeats might have said, All changed, changed utterly.
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.Mousemess | Sep 18, 2012, 10:25 AM EDT
I use the term Eire/Ireland to show respect for Irish which is the first official language as describe in Bunreacht na hEireann (Constitution of Ireland) and the language of choice for those Irish families that love and take pride in the Irish language. And for the fact that Eire/Ireland is a bilingual country with English being the first language or language of choice for other Irish families. I don't use the term British Isles myself. Eire/Ireland is independent from what I call Britain or UK for the country made up of Alba/Scotland, Cymru/Wales, Kernow/Cornwall, Ellan/Vannin/Isle of Man, England, the various Channel Islands (Jersey, Sark, etc.)
seanomelbourne | Jan 10, 2012, 05:59 PM EST
If the pre-Norman Irish independent state was aligned with Rome who were the Vatican appointed bishops? The Irish church was appointing it's own bishops as do the copts today.The "Celtic" church had a commonality with the orthodox church in liturgy and feast days.
ancavker | Jan 10, 2012, 11:08 AM EST
sirpeter: The British government and the BBC no longer use British Isles either. They use Britain and Ireland; as it should be.
sirpeter | Jan 10, 2012, 09:34 AM EST
@lokionline.It's the British Isles AND Ireland.The Irish government don't use that term "British Isles" In the name of mutual respect.Don't use the term.
lokionline | Jan 09, 2012, 04:33 PM EST
A new relationship between the nations of the British Isles is slowly emerging. The dominance of the English is being replaced with a growing mutual respect for all the nations in our isles. It will be fascinating to watch this process unfold.
abhainn | Jan 09, 2012, 10:52 AM EST
It has been accepted in Ireland for many years that this demographic reversal, whether it happens sooner or later, will not necessarily lead to a unified Ireland because, even before the recent economic collapse of the Republic, many Catholic Northerners had Unionist rather than Nationalist political preferences, despite all the killing and propaganda to the contrary by the IRA gangsters.
AMWilson | Jan 09, 2012, 03:45 AM EST
Gearoid, Where did I say that the pre-Norman Irish Church had "no connection to Rome"? I wasn't implying that it was somehow a completely autonomous entity, but it was obviously doing its own thing enough (which you conceded) to provide at least superficial justification for the 1155 papal bull, which was intended to (among other things) bring the Irish Church under more direct control. But I didn't use the word "isolated", and I certainly didn't use the loaded term "Celtic", so there's not really any "notion" that you need to "relieve" me of.
Gearoid4 | Jan 08, 2012, 09:28 PM EST
@AMWilson, There was no separate 'Celtic' Irish Catholic Church before the Norman Invasion. Experts who study the early centuries of Irish Christianity will relieve you of the notion that there was a completely isolated "Church" within these Islands with no connection to Rome. It is generally accepted that although there was some superficial differences regarding customs and the dating of Easter etc, the Irish Church was an integral part of the Latin Church in Europe.
sirpeter | Jan 08, 2012, 07:29 PM EST
Father Georgina.Give FallsRNat absolution there for his sins.Still laughing that Georgie Boy wants to become a priest.I can understand the problems of the Catholic Church.Can you imagine all the social misfits it must attract.Did I tell ya Georgie Boy that the Catholic Church is calling ya to the Cistercian Order.Now you will have to take a vow of silence.But what better way to serve humanity.Go for it Georgie.You have the calling.hahahaha
sirpeter | Jan 08, 2012, 07:02 PM EST
Fallsers.That's a pure fail of a comment.Always happy to deliberately mislead.It's all about blaming the Catholics in any way that might work with you Seamus.We all know what causes sexual transmitted diseases and why they are on the rise.Bonking everything that moves Seamus.That will do it every time.
Gearoid4 | Jan 08, 2012, 05:09 PM EST
Please FallsRNat, do not use that old Canard about the Catholic Church spreading so much misery because of Her stand against contraception and condoms in relation to AIDs. There is a general pattern of countries experiencing a fall in demographics below the standard set for fertility replacement levels. Contraception involves the dubious disconnection between the loving union of the couple and the sexual act which God had ordained in His Natural Law. It means that a couple ignores the will of Christ in His Laws. Also the Church is at the forefront of efforts to combat AIDs in sub-Saharan Africa and other places. Thus Church organizations are best placed to tell what is best for those who are effected by it. African prelates and priests will tell you that over-reliance on condoms without any other measures has failed to halt the epidemic. The main cause of the spread of this terrible condition is the amoral behavior of those who indulge in risky behavior with multiple partners. Seamomelbourne, Read Matthew 16:19 where Peter was unambiguously given the keys of authority to lead the Church in Christ's absence through the symbol of the Keys. Barneyjo, you make some interesting and thoughtful points in your usual articulate and effective way.
ciaradexy | Jan 08, 2012, 03:34 PM EST
Ah Georgie seriously, stop making stuff up! Its when I come across people like you I become really glad your great great great great great granny left these shores. Its such a relief! Phew! You just repeat the same old crap over and over so much so that you seem to start believing your nonsense! Must be the alzheimers, bless.
GeorgeDillon | Jan 08, 2012, 03:02 PM EST
sirpeter, I'd give you absolution, regardless of those nasty little habits you have. Since you have a mental age of seven or less you can't be held responsible. Ciaradexty, too, she told us she has a chronological age of 35, but her mental age is clearly about a fifth of that. Even though our Church would not encourage it, her resolution not to have children is something we all appreciate.
seamus60 | Jan 08, 2012, 02:30 PM EST
Married priests ? Can`t see it. Should they be allowed to marry and practice what they preach the financial burden of very large families would only diminish the well stashed wealth of their employers.
sirpeter | Jan 08, 2012, 12:22 PM EST
Edit for the pedantic. > me!! laugh.
ciaradexy | Jan 08, 2012, 12:21 PM EST
He'd look great in one of those dunce caps but Id say hes well used to them by now anyway!
sirpeter | Jan 08, 2012, 12:19 PM EST
Georgie Boy says he would make a good Catholic priest.hahahahaha..Georgie Boy the only calling you have is to become a high priest of the KKK.hahahaha.Georgina you make laugh.
GeorgeDillon | Jan 08, 2012, 10:58 AM EST
I'm pretty neutral on the issue of a married priesthood. In fact in one way I'd welcome it, as I think I'd make a rather good priest and would consider joining up once my current profession permits me. The do-nothing spineless bishops would probably not want to see a supporter of the Church Militant becoming a priest, however. Those jerks apologize even for existing. They've obviously long forgotten how their ancestors defended the church "in spite of dungeon, fire and sword"!
AMWilson | Jan 07, 2012, 11:39 PM EST
Barneyjo, as a practicing Catholic, I second your sentiments. I have remained with the RCC because I was raised in the Church and I feel at home with the liturgy, but I have no particular allegiance to the heirarchy or the politics of the Church. Recognizing the damage the RCC has done in Ireland, starting with its authorization of the Norman Invasion in 1155 and continuing through its unchallenged abuse of the Irish people particularly within the past 100 years, I'm kind of pining for a resurgence of the old pre-Norman Irish Catholic Church, complete with its married priesthood. I've heard some Irish priests advocate a married priesthood, so maybe there's hope on that front.
barneyjo | Jan 07, 2012, 09:54 PM EST
I think GeorgeDillon and Gearoid4 are about to get their eyes open even more about the failings of the Catholic Church in Ireland. The very personal elevation by the Pope of one of his own proteges carries a great deal of risk if you view it as I do as a very large bandage on an open wound. It suggests that much is expected from this appointment in terms of re-establishing the credibility of the Church in Ireland, with minimalist approach in terms of effort. It suggests there is still a gross ignorance of the impact of the scandals on the Irish Catholic psyche and as such, has little chance of succeeding. As such, it will be of little consequence whether or not Catholic/Nationalists assume the majority on all the Island. It wont hasten the arrival of a 32 county state, largely for reasons already articulated by other posters, nor will it lead to the hoped for revival of the Catholic Church; my church. I simply do not believe that it has as yet fallen as far as it must. 2012 could be an interesting watershed though!!
FallsRNat | Jan 07, 2012, 09:30 PM EST
gearoid - u sat that the CC has spent more money than any other organisation in africa, however, arguably the CC is responsible for the pain & misery spread across millions of africans through its outdated views of the condom used as a contraceptive during sex to prevent exposure to HIV & other STDs etc.
DanOLoingsigh | Jan 07, 2012, 08:07 PM EST
GeorgeDillon - so you go to Mass, do you? - well what a fine example of Christian values you display - do us a favour and let us know when next you plan a visit, and where, so we can avoid your poisonous version of christianity...
seanomelbourne | Jan 07, 2012, 06:07 PM EST
Ah!sure your only a child Ciara. That forgives you for some of your comments. Leach all this religious nosense from your minds and you'll become better human beings.Gearoid4 can you show me a signed statement from Christ giving St.Peter any mandate.Jesus was born (and died) a Jew.
ciaradexy | Jan 07, 2012, 04:18 PM EST
Seamus60, youre very right in regards to the wealth of the church. Its an organisation that is endemically abusive or women and children and does not practice what it preaches.
ciaradexy | Jan 07, 2012, 04:12 PM EST
That doesnt mean catholic organisations are doing any more than other christian organisations or other non religion NGOs. Infact most organisations out there doing the work are non religious NGOs.
Gearoid4 | Jan 07, 2012, 04:06 PM EST
"the answer to your question is Christian organisations NOT catholic". Newsflash, CiaraDexy, Catholic organisations are by virtue of their founding and motivation "Christian" and let us have no confusion over this. The Catholic Church had it's mandate given to Her by Christ who appointed St Peter the first Earthly leader of the Church.
ciaradexy | Jan 07, 2012, 03:48 PM EST
So you were in every city and church in the country? So the reports in the news papers are lies now are they? yes is the answer if its your beloved tabloid. I have friends and family ALL OVER this country and i can assure you, people are not attending mass. You are a tourist georgie, A TOURIST! Ive been to Italy a few times but I cant tell you if many go to mass, I can tell you in regards to ireland though. My granny attends mass with her mates but I dont know anyone under 50 who attends. How many Irish people do you know here Georgie?
GeorgeDillon | Jan 07, 2012, 03:32 PM EST
Ciaradexy: " people are not attending mass anymore." How the hell would you know, you utter fool and bigot? You don't go to Mass! I do. I was in Ireland a few months back and the churches were quite full for Mass. Moron.
seamus60 | Jan 07, 2012, 03:28 PM EST
Folks we are a commodity regardless of race or religion and borders as we know them will become more irellivant. Religion is nothing more than a fabric to weave society together proven by its own greed.How can any christian or other so called do gooder group sit on wealth when there is hunger all around. Were we all not taught by our respective religions on how all the wealth in the world could never equate to the life of a human being.
ciaradexy | Jan 07, 2012, 03:26 PM EST
If anyone is planning on visiting Ireland and fancies seeing the 'real' ireland and not georgies version of it, gimme a shout. Im away kayaking, surfing and hiking most weekends around Mayo, West Cork etc . My email is ciaradexy@gmail.com and Id love to show you around.
ciaradexy | Jan 07, 2012, 03:20 PM EST
How would I know if people are or are not attending mass? Eh BECAUSE I LIVE HERE YOU GIMP!
ciaradexy | Jan 07, 2012, 03:19 PM EST
Georgie, dont get so upset because Irish people view you as a dumb stereotype of the 'know it all but know nothing much' Oirish American stereotype! Its people like you who give all of them a really bad name here! Any Irish Americans on here who think Georgie might know what he's talking about, take it from me, he's read a few books, big deal,most of us have but it doesn't make us the oracle on anything in particular. He's been here a few times, big deal! I've been to the US a few times, still means nothing! He's an embarrassment to you all! If you want to know about Ireland, ask an Irish person not this degenerate! You dont go on holidays and ask another tourist about the country, you ask a local or a native. Please stick to that notion instead of listening to Georgieboy!
ciaradexy | Jan 07, 2012, 03:13 PM EST
Ive been here 35 years you imbicile and Ive seen them go from full to empty! You were here on holiday Georgie and then you left! You havent a clue! I was in Atlanta for a week,cant say I can make a rash generalisation about the entire country from it though!
GeorgeDillon | Jan 07, 2012, 01:08 PM EST
Ciaradexy: " people are not attending mass anymore." How the hell would you know, you utter fool and bigot? You don't go to Mass! I do. I was in Ireland a few months back and the churches were quite full for Mass. Moron.
GeorgeDillon | Jan 07, 2012, 01:05 PM EST
ciaradexy on Jan 07, 2012, 09:12 AM EST "I'm 35. Im not that bloody young!" You certainly aren't. You're old enough to have some sense. So how come you're so dumb? What is your mental age? 10? Re
ciaradexy | Jan 07, 2012, 12:17 PM EST
Gearoid, the answer to your question is Christian organisations NOT catholic. I trained with an organisation which is ''catholic'' but they would class themselves more as christian. They spend the money that is given to them by the public from fundraising. They are not given money by the church. The ''voluntary'' positions in Africa are mainly funded by the governments of the African countries the volunteers go to. Even though technically theyre called NGOs, they still get government funding. The Irish government cut overseas aid by €50 million which is why NGOs now cant place volunteers.
Gearoid4 | Jan 07, 2012, 11:03 AM EST
@Ciaradexy. Who provides the greatest amount of health /social care to the sick, poor,unemployed and prisoners etc on the Continent of Africa outside UN NGOs? It so happens to be the Catholic Church that you so denigrate. Catholic Charitable organizations, often fronted by priests and male and female religious, are in the forefront of providing such care. At least a quarter of all such activity on a global scale is provided by the Church.
ciaradexy | Jan 07, 2012, 09:12 AM EST
Sirpeter-Im 35. Im not that bloody young!
FallsRNat | Jan 07, 2012, 08:32 AM EST
sirpeter - found u at last, i'll thought that you have joined the comments list on Bobby Sands.
sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 11:59 PM EST
@bradybradyisaid.You are correct.Even Protestants have said in the republic of Ireland.That the only bigotry they came across was from their own kind towards Catholics.They never saw it the other way around.
sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 11:54 PM EST
@ciaradexy.I can feel your anger and you are right in lots of ways.But you are wrong in lots of way too.I get the feeling you are quite young.Open your mind a bit more.What's good is bad and what's bad is good a lot of the time.The world is as it is.Ciaradexy you seem to be directing a lot of hate towards what I would call a faceless organization.
bradybradyisaid | Jan 06, 2012, 09:34 PM EST
Just came from a great dinner at Niagara on the Lake, Ontario, Canada. One of the many topics responded to by my friend from Northern Ireland was. "The minority in Northern Ireland (Catholics) were suppressed in many ways. In the republic of Ireland where one of seventeen are Protestant, they have never had a problem with the majority.
ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 05:43 PM EST
By the way, I was meant to go to Southern Sudan at the end of last year to run an AIDS clinic and we had conflict training. Nuns and priests etc are expected to look after themselves but in a lot of countries the UN helps out as do the non hostile armies of the countries involved.
ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 05:37 PM EST
And the catholic church HAS meddled in Irish affairs because we were a church state so the more separation of church and state the better for all concerned. Pope JP covered for paedophiles and rapists! Ratzy and his prada shoes make me sick! I dont recall ever hearing about ''jesus'' wearing fancy clothes or being wealthy. Its easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven, I remember something about that but then all popes and those in the Vatican should burn in hell for their wealth which is stolen by the way!
ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 05:34 PM EST
SirPeter-the catholic church is the wealthiest organisation in the world! It has the power to end poverty.The church went into Africa to save babies in exchange for conversion, kinda like what the British did here for a while. Food/Life for conversion The catholic church put woman and girls into the Magdelene laundries and stole their babies from them and then raped and abused them for the rest of their lives. Plenty of these babies were sold to Americans! Children ahve been raped, beaten and murdered by the catholic church here for 60 years! Women were better off under the British when they were here than they ever were under the Catholic church. Maybe creationism is making a come back in the US but it isnt here ,thats for sure!
AMWilson | Jan 06, 2012, 04:30 PM EST
Ciara, fair point.
sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 04:07 PM EST
@ciaradexy.I'm not disputing the wrongs of the Catholic Church.I'm not very impressed myself.But then I'm not impressed with any church.You're Catholic ancestors payed a tenth of their income to the Protestant church.Imagine the bit*hing they did.I like hard facts,not fairy tails either.Creationism is actually making a come-back.Not the other way around.So saying the Catholic Church will be gone in 10 years is just wishful thinking.It's also not going to be a true fact as you have stated.This is the reason I replied to your comment.All religions have a belief system and you're not going to shift their belief in religion unless you stick rigidly to fact.Even then it's a hopeless case.You might be disappointed in the Catholic Church with all the slimy priest related stories.You have come to the right website for those.But I don't take much notice because I could fill this site with thousands of good priest/nuns stories.Ones where good priest/nuns saved thousands of dieing babies before they picked up a disease and died themselves.Who do you think protects priest/nuns in war-torn areas from helping save life's? Even despots are careful not to mess with the Catholic Church.Anyway you will find a good few here who like to pee on everything related to Ireland.Take rugbyplayer below. Quote"The Vatican which has been a chief trouble maker in Irish affairs since Elizabeth I".Unquote.What historian in their right mind would believe that.The Vatican didn't ship food out of Ireland and let a million people die.He is peeing on your ancestors and you didn't even see it.
ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 03:55 PM EST
Its hard to get 100% confirmed sources when a lot of women give the address of their friend or family in the UK instead of their own at home and also there are thousands more who go to Europe for abortions on top of those who go to the Uk, Its disgusting that Irish women have to go abroad.
AMWilson | Jan 06, 2012, 03:22 PM EST
Thanks, Ciara, I found the article. I'm surprised that in an apparently academic article, Favier didn't include any source citations but, anyway, there appear to be some conflicting stats, not that that detracts from your point.
ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 02:10 PM EST
Sirpeter, people arent bringing their kids up as practicing catholics any more. They may be baptising them because of some odd loyalty to the grandparents but people are not attending mass anymore. The church does not have the same hold over this country any more and that will just get more pronounced over the next few years and I for one welcome that. People think for themselves these days and dont rely on stories from over 2000 years ago to base their beliefs on. The catholic church has been bad news for this country since the foundation of the state. Once the Brits left and the church took over, things got much worse here. I was christened catholic but officially left the church a few years back. I cant name one person who attends mass anymore and as more slimey priest related stories come out of the woodwork the numbers will go right down and people will really start using their heads instead of being ruled by superstition.
sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 01:20 PM EST
@ciaradexy.That's a fairly wild statement to say the catholic church will be gone in 10 years.Or whatever you are trying to say.Have you any idea how stupid that statement is?If I was to say that the Protestant church in the North will be gone 10 years after a United Ireland.Would that not be an insult to the the people of the Protestant faith?To wish that upon them like you seem to do with the Catholic faith.
ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 12:37 PM EST
Rugbyplayer-the catholic church is dying in the republic and its influence just about gone so dont be worrying about that! They are being forced to give up the running of a number of school too. In 10 years, it will be no more.
sirpeter | Jan 06, 2012, 11:48 AM EST
I bet the Brits will be delighted to off load the Unionist drum-beating square-heads.What's the going price per lorry load of Prozac that they are putting in the water up there these days? Will the Prozac be EU subsidized?It must be a double dose for the Unionist areas at least after these figures came out.
rugbyplayer | Jan 06, 2012, 10:40 AM EST
If the stats are correct and I think they are, will the politics of the Province change drastically? I am not anti-Catholic by any means, but if Catholics in the Province want to convince their suspicious fellow Protestants of their good intentions then there must be a conscious lessening of the R.C. population's allegiance to the constant interference in Irish affairs of the authoritarian Irish Roman Catholic bishops, priests and above all the Vatican which has been a chief trouble maker in Irish affairs since Elizabeth I.
ciaradexy | Jan 06, 2012, 09:43 AM EST
AMWilson-Check out this article-Repressing Abortion in Ireland by Mary Favier (Doctors For Choice) It wont let me post the link. In my circle of friends alone, at least 6 women that I know of have had abortions.
joycean | Jan 06, 2012, 09:16 AM EST
AMWilson, What a strange comment. Of course there is an American culture. Admittedly, there are different meanings to the word. "Culture" can be meant in a "high culture" sense, fine arts. There are many American writers, composers, artists,dance and opera companies. In addition to Hoolywood there is Broadway and live theater. Culture can also be meant in in a sociological sense, a unique set of mores that characterizes a group of people. This country has been here for more than 4 centuries, and Americans share many commonalities that distinguish us from other people: our own sports; our own Englsih dialect; our shared attitudes and values which tend to be much more conservative than European attitudes. We are more religious and patriotic. Americans have a Puritan-based sense of morality. Ther is also a distinctly American cuisine with regional variations.
IrelandNorth | Jan 06, 2012, 05:50 AM EST
If the Good Friday Agreement, 1998 was Sunningdale, 1973 for Slow Learners (Seamus Mallon/SDLP), then Sunningdale must have been the Anglo-Irish Treaty, 1922 for political autistics. Either way, we'll settle for a United Ireland a century later than planned.
SAirish | Jan 06, 2012, 05:14 AM EST
This is not good news for the Prods agreed. However the big question is do the Catholics want to leave the UK, current opinions polls inicate no. Even during the troubles there was at least a 20% of Catholics that supported the union. So it may still be a long road to a UI. Voting SF and SDLP does not indicate that people want a UI, people vote on tribal lines. As far as Scotland is concerned, the amount of people supporting independance has not changed during the last 40 years. It has always been about a third of the population. The last opinion poll indicated only 28% support for indepedence, which is why the SNP is delaying the poll for as long as it can during the current Parliament. People voted SNP because it was perceived to be a good governance party and not because they supported a break up of the UK. During the electon campaign the SNP played the independence issue down as they knew it would probably be a vote looser. In Wales the nationlist party have abandoned the independance issue completely as it is just not popular enough.
bradybradyisaid | Jan 06, 2012, 03:18 AM EST
Hey Pittsburghkid! Greetings from Niagara Falls,NY Last time I checked it took the U.S. 36 years to grow from 200 million to 300 million- 1970 to 2006. From 2006 to 2043, we will reach 400 million. The definition of Culture, for me is "the manifestation of human intellectual achievement." We have had many peaks and valleys in our 235 year history. We are back on the right course, watch us.
AMWilson | Jan 06, 2012, 02:09 AM EST
Bogsidebunny, I think that's the first time I've laughed out loud today, so thanks for that! Johntobin, years ago, I probably would have called that blasphemy... I certainly scoffed when Gay Mitchell brought it up during the presidential election... but I don't know that it's such a horrible idea, now that we see what "being at the heart of Europe" actually entails. I think that the UK has done a respectable job of promoting the indigenous cultures (and languages) that they once persecuted which, as an AI, is my primary concern. Not taking a stand; just thinking out loud.
AMWilson | Jan 05, 2012, 11:33 PM EST
P-burgh, I'm having a hard time finding an "American culture," outside of the "It's all about me" commercialism and consumerism that we're bombarded with on television. Not a true culture, IMO (since it's not in any sense a folk culture) and worthy of death. Ciara, not picking a fight, but where did you get the "1 in 10" stat? The numbers I'm looking at (johnstonsarchive.net) look like 1 in 10 pregancies are aborted, but only something like 7 women out of 1,000 have had an abortion. I don't even know if those numbers make sense, but just curious about that stat. Even in a country where the Church's influence is on the wane, 1 in 10 seems high to me. The same source shows the US at about 20 women out of 1,000.
ciaradexy | Jan 05, 2012, 09:06 PM EST
Pittburghkid-What utter rubbish! This has nothing to do with abortion. Abortion isnt legal anywhere on this island. Religion has nothing to do with it either. 1 in 10 Irish women have had an abortion. Dont turn this into a ridiculous argument.
UKIreland | Jan 05, 2012, 08:37 PM EST
No news here, everyone has known about the coming demographic change for decades. It's not important: as long as Britain is wealthier than Ireland, it will take another generation before a political majority in favor of a united Ireland emerges. Most protestants, and a substantial minority of catholics, will be in favor of the status quo. At this rate, I will be about 80 by the time a united Ireland happens.
Briandee | Jan 05, 2012, 08:23 PM EST
Didnt say how the catholics are gaining in numbers. Is it Irish catholics or outside immigrants? The latter is a worse situation than we have now.
barneyjo | Jan 05, 2012, 06:49 PM EST
@ancavker - re your assertion about the re-unification of the former FDR & DDR, you are not correct. During elections held in March 1990, the "Alliance For Germany" formed a coalition with the Social Democrats on a platform which advocated the re-unification of greater Germany. In Ireland, as you are aware, the agreed terms of the Good Friday Agreement were endorsed in polls both in NI and ROI in 1998. So, in both cases there was a mandate in place to drive the political process forward in each case.
Collette2 | Jan 05, 2012, 06:02 PM EST
I wouldn't go that far sean, but I'm interested in what effect it will have in Rome Will they have the power as before to hold us all to ransom. A serpent always raise's it's head sometime. Blaming mother's for the abuse of their children by their clergy.
seanomelbourne | Jan 05, 2012, 05:49 PM EST
I can see a united Ireland on the horizon and it has nothing to do with abortions. A united secular Ireland free of religious bigotry that's the order..With each passing generation religion is loosing its bigoted voice,Thank God. As an atheist/nationalist I say a plague on all your religions.
Pittsburghkid | Jan 05, 2012, 05:28 PM EST
I've been predicting this for a long time. This was a victory of Pro-Life. If Catholics would have practiced abortion, then this majority would not have occurred. The Prostestants practice abortion, and their culture will die. The same as the American culture is dying.
JOHNTOBIN | Jan 05, 2012, 05:23 PM EST
My belief for the future is that both the North and the South will unite as one Republic and then rejoin the British Commonwealth.
joycean | Jan 05, 2012, 05:06 PM EST
ancavker, I think they equate nationalism and jingoism. The wars I had in mind were WWI,II. You are right, there isn't anything wrong with patriotism and love of country. Imagine giving up religion and patriotism.
Curitiba | Jan 05, 2012, 04:11 PM EST
What might make more sense would be a Irish-Scottish union. Both countries have a shared ancestry (Scotus is the Latin name for ireland), many modern Scots descended from Irish Celts, and many modern Ulstermen descended from Scots, shared languages (Gaeilge, Gàidhlig, Scots, Ulster Scots, English), kilts, dancing and music. Not to mention the religious divide. Ireland and Scotland together could be the first Celtic nation to make an impression on the world stage, and provide a cultural homeland for the world's Goidelic Celtic diaspora!
Curitiba | Jan 05, 2012, 04:00 PM EST
I am sure that had this occurred 30 or 40 years ago, a united Ireland would have come about. But the people who went through the Troubles in that era are old now, and it is the views of the younger generation that will matter now. Do young Catholics want to join the Republic?
ancavker | Jan 05, 2012, 03:13 PM EST
joycean: Not to be dramatic, but it there really is a buzz in Scotland and a real sense of pride in the country. And they are contemplating independence/devo max even in a hugely uncertain economic environment. I wish them well, whatever they decide.
ancavker | Jan 05, 2012, 03:10 PM EST
joycean: You could be right, although there is nothing wrong with being nationalistic and loving your country. As far as wars go, well the Irish war of independence would be way down the list as far as violence, bloodshed and lives lost. And if the British had honored the results of the 1918 general election, and sat down and negotiated with Sinn Fein at the time, much of the violence could have been averted. That of course is so meting the revisionists conveniently ignore.
ancavker | Jan 05, 2012, 03:07 PM EST
barneyjo: You may be right, but I do recall Unionists saying that if a majority in the six counties ever voted for reunification, than they would support it. Just as an aside, I don't recall anyone asking the East Germans whether they wanted reunification with the west, and yet it happened. As far as the basket case economy well you have a point there as well, but the north is just a giant welfare state, so nothing to be proud of on their end either.
joycean | Jan 05, 2012, 02:51 PM EST
ancavker, I have the impression that the Irish have been taught to be "anti-nationalistic." Maybe it was Hume's theory. Maybe it is the theory that all European wars began with nationalism. Of course, the rest of Europe is now happily waving flags. And you are right about the Scots.
citizen69 | Jan 05, 2012, 02:47 PM EST
This isn't exactly new information. It's been know for a while that there are more Catholics of educational age than Protestants. The current population is most likely already around 50/50. I know you like to make your derogatory little snipes against Northern Ireland Naill but surely you know that Catholics in general have been better of than Protestants in Northern Ireland for a while now so they may take some persuading to abandon the North's position within the UK. The trend in the opinion polls has been showing a steady increase in the number of Catholics content within Northern Ireland. One doesn't need a United Ireland to be Irish.
SeamusMartin | Jan 05, 2012, 01:58 PM EST
In my general discussions with Irish Republic persons I've been told that they are not sure about adding the North. While a United Ireland almost seems like the US's manifest destiny many in the south even with their economy pight are under the impression the North is even worse off, except that UK keeps pumping money and services back into it. Germany seems to have suceeded with the addition of the East which was in terrible shape at the time. Isreal has succeeded. Ireland should also be able to succeed if they all pull the same way together. Orange and Green that's the dream; strength and zeal will make it real! PS -- and good luck to the Scots!
barneyjo | Jan 05, 2012, 01:45 PM EST
For those Observers,Posters, and Dreamers looking in from outside the country and who still consider a 32 County State to be a serious proposition resulting from birth rate changes, "DREAM ON". Its not going to happen, and for one simple reason; you cannot and will not suceed in force marching upwards of 700,000 Unionists into a new political dispensation in the absence of their support and co-operation. It is pretty obvious where we are heading at least in the short to medium term; towards a loose Federation with both north/south and east/west dimensions. A casual observer may not have noted that socio-economic drivers being put in place underpin this. In the health, tourism and other economic sectors increasing co-operation is both planned and developing. I can well envisage Jeffery Donaldson being the "Grand Old Man" of Unionism within an all- island federal arrangement!! And as for Northern Nationalists voting in support of joining the Basket case economy that is ROI, the analogy of Turkies voting for christmas comes to mind!!
barneyjo | Jan 05, 2012, 01:41 PM EST
For those Observers,Posters, and Dreamers looking in from outside the country and who still consider a 32 County State to be a serious proposition resulting from birth rate changes, "DREAM ON". Its not going to happen, and for one simple reason; you cannot and will not suceed in force marching upwards of 700,000 Unionists into a new political dispensation in the absence of their support and co-operation. It is pretty obvious where we are heading at least in the short to medium term; towards a loose Federation with both north/south and east/west dimensions. A casual observer may not have noted that socio-economic drivers being put in place underpin this. In the health, tourism and other economic sectors increasing co-operation is both planned and developing. I can well envisage Jeffery Donaldson being the "Grand Old Man" of Unionism within an all- island federal arrangement!!
cillowen | Jan 05, 2012, 01:35 PM EST
not a real problem with the southies having gone wide eyed gaga for the protestant pope, Queen Eliza.
merefalow | Jan 05, 2012, 12:28 PM EST
great,cant outfight em,out bonk em.
ancavker | Jan 05, 2012, 11:55 AM EST
brennan: Not only blasé, but outright hostility in many cases. They run everything down that is their own, and of course they are experts regarding what is going on in the U.S. God help you though, if you were too offer a comment on Ireland. Was always amazing to me that back in the day when the north was burning, you had to listen to all of their commentary on American politics, and (how bad the American government was), but if you mentioned the north they grew incredibly hostile.
heybuldog69 | Jan 05, 2012, 11:40 AM EST
The folks from Northern Ireland call themselves "Irish" when they are out of their own territory; and call themselves "British" when in Ireland. Seems likely that the whole island should be united because the split identities are not convincing.
Scotchtommy | Jan 05, 2012, 11:37 AM EST
Shure bejabbers and bejesus and all our pathetic little petty worries about unemployment,failing health care, galloping emigration etc.will be over.There will be dancing in the streets-dancing barefoot that is since nobody will be able to afford shoes.But what does it matter that Ireland's in total dog doo as long as she's finally thrown off the yoke (or is it da yolk?) of da oppressor.
carrickcourt | Jan 05, 2012, 10:54 AM EST
This tend in the North of Catholics overtaking Protestants in population is not new of course but this rapid change is interesting to say the least. No doubt Ireland will be united in some form in the future the question is in what form.
Rebelforce | Jan 05, 2012, 10:49 AM EST
The sooner the Irish people get rid of that artificial border scarring the face of their small island the better. The idea that an island country the size of Maine would remain divided indefinitely into two political entities is foolish and wasteful. Re-Unite Ireland and let the six million Irish people work together to build an Ireland that cherishes and respects both the Catholic and Protestant traditions of the island.
brennanirish | Jan 05, 2012, 10:47 AM EST
ANCAVKER makes an interesting point. I am never surprised by the LACK of Nationalism and the blaise attitude so many Irish have toward their Nation. I think BUNKERISLAND might have the answer. Less than 100 years as a nation is not that long, but look at Israel and their fierce national pride.....
Silling | Jan 05, 2012, 10:45 AM EST
Je pense si le gouvernment d'Irlande mis en vente des comptats de Louth, Clare, Monaghan,Cavan,Leitrim et Longford avant le unite de les six comptats de Ulster! Comme ca, on peux garder le vingt six sans aucun problem. Jai parle avec quelque-un en Nouvelle Zealande et il ma dit que le priminister las bas est daccord pour acheter Monaghan, le comtat des voleurs de moutons.
seamus60 | Jan 05, 2012, 10:33 AM EST
This numbers game won`t be of any great differance when Catholics out number Protestants as the brits have the veto on any such vote ever taking place. There is also another figure that could be applied. That of when ever this over played percentage point is achieved, " how sooner could we have reached that same figure in respect of the biggest percentage of victims through out the period of the troubles being Catholic"?. But that won`t even equate because the number of west brits will heavily out weigh that of nationalist minded protestants. All before we even consider economics etc.
bunkerisland | Jan 05, 2012, 10:02 AM EST
It takes time to remove the "yolk of the oppressor" and there is more than one yolk!
ancavker | Jan 05, 2012, 09:58 AM EST
Niall: Nice to see you commenting on the real potential breakup of the U.K. I have been on about that for quite some time. There is a real buzz in Scotland over independence,or devo max I saw it all over Scotland. I wish them the best in whatever they decide, and it was nice to see how proud people there are over how far they have come. Compare it to so many of the Irish who just run their own country down. Hopefully the Scots will do a better job with independence/devo max than the Irish have.
ReturnedYank | Jan 05, 2012, 09:55 AM EST
The North will reunite and take over the South.
stephendoyle | Jan 05, 2012, 09:55 AM EST
free to choose- you must have a very short memory of what the british did to the Irish.
ancavker | Jan 05, 2012, 09:54 AM EST
And 6 failed counties have nothing to offer the 26, not to mention the English tax payer.
stephendoyle | Jan 05, 2012, 09:53 AM EST
What guns and bombs couldn't accomplish, the birth rate will. And don't kid yourself GeorgeDillon, the catholics will suredly vote for a unified Ireland............
CitizenWhy | Jan 05, 2012, 09:53 AM EST
People should not assume that Catholics in NI would vote to join the Republic. In fact, not likely at all. Catholics, with some urban exceptions, have long been a more prosperous community that the Protestant community.
RedBranch | Jan 05, 2012, 09:34 AM EST
Well done Niall! All those 'free contraception' services offered by Irish Central around the Province seem to be working; especially with the proviso so thoughtfullly added: "Cathloics Need Not Apply"!
GeorgeDillon | Jan 05, 2012, 08:18 AM EST
nycsheridan -"there is no reason to believe that people born into Catholic families will be inclined to march lock-step towards a unified Ireland." But of course it never occurred to you that there is no reason to believe that all people born into Protestant families will be inclined not to march lock-step towards a unified Ireland.
NYCsheridan | Jan 05, 2012, 07:47 AM EST
Interesting, yet the question is "would Catholics vote to stay in the UK anyway for economic reasons alone". As the culture matures and religion becomes less important in our lives, there is no reason to believe that people born into Catholic families will be inclined to march lock-step towards a unified Ireland.
free2choose | Jan 05, 2012, 07:37 AM EST
26 failed counties have nothing to offer ulster except a place in the dole queue or a 1 one way ticket to emigration.