82 Comments

• themurphia | Aug 02, 2011, 05:57 PM EDT

  eiriamach:'All the world's a stage and the men and women in it merely players...They have their exits and their entrances...And every man in his time plays many parts...'And yourself...are you a thespian...? Are any of us who we say we are..?

• themurphia | Aug 02, 2011, 05:29 PM EDT

  eiriamach:Now it's funny you should say that..!;-) I think the best of all worlds would be for Irish children old and young to be bilingual with neither language dominant...!It saddens me greatly that Young Irish people think Irish is not worth learning because it is not the language of Commerce...I am a firm beliver in learning for learnings sake...learn anything and everything you can and then if you've got any time left over learn some more...!Yep definitely a film there...!We need another Maureen O'Hara for Granuaile...!Sorry about typos don't notice them until I've posted the comments...!

• eiriamach | Aug 02, 2011, 03:52 PM EDT

  avcavker, I'm not really a history buff but only developed an interest recently in American Civil War and labor movement history while I researched my immigrant ancestors (Famine-era) from Ireland. I needed Renaissance and late medieval history for my studies in literature, but immediately after I did that, I moved over to Irish literature, which is fascinating in every era, not just Shakespeare's! Machiavelli and James I of England are side interests for me. A little of this, a little of that! Well now I really must go to Nova Scotia next fall and find out whether I can communicate with anyone in Irish up there. I've wanted to travel to NS with my daughter for a long time. I agree that loss of everyday Irish is a tragedy, but I also believe that English has begun its demise and within the next two centuries will die altogether, and Irish will return to common use, maybe widespread use, then. I won't live to see it, but I believe that Irish cannot die if only because of its great literature and songs, seanchas, etc. -------> themurphia, I've been waiting for someone in Hollywood or Ireland to make that film you wrote of, and if it doesn't show up soon, you and I and ancavker if he or she is interested will just have to collaborate on the screenplay. I can't afford to 'produce' it though--can you act at all? I'll bet you can.

• themurphia | Aug 02, 2011, 03:47 PM EDT

  Buggery buggery buggery...Someone has beaten us to the film rights...Anyways I guess 'The Irish Queen' sounded a little too much like a pratiai..not that there's anything wrong with that...!However I have found...I think the definitive book on 'Granuaile'...The O'Malley was older than Bess...but both died in the same year... spooky!...anvaker:I am not a history buff just a geek..not the same thing...I think the use of the various languages is explained in the contexts... socuial formal/Court and scholarly...I agree with you about the Irish language but it is not yet lost...just in need of rescue...English is a wonderful language it's just not *my* native language...English Literature is one of my best/ favourite subjects and of course ties in with history...I love the use of 'the' as an indication of a high status Irish name...anyone know the origin...wanna tell me...?or do I have to add that to my 'to do' list..?

• ancavker | Aug 02, 2011, 03:19 PM EDT

  eiramach: I am a history buff as well, and find the Elizabethan/Tudor period fascinating too. As far as the language, I have a relative who is a fluent Irish speaker, and he can communicate well enough with Scots Gaelic speakers in Nova Scotia, and that is with Munster Irish, Not Ulster/Donegal Irish. Me personally I believe the loss of the Irish language as the everyday language of Ireland is a great tragedy. That being said, the Irish have done wonderful things with the English language as well.

• CitizenWhy | Aug 02, 2011, 11:02 AM EDT

  Rationalization. The essence: the hierarchy disgraced themselves and have not been held accountable for their crimes. They willingly led priests into temptation and they willingly failed to deliver children from great evil. How could they recite the Our Father, the words of Christ, and not see what they were doing? Let them answer to Christ, not to pop psychology.

• themurphia | Aug 02, 2011, 05:20 AM EDT

  eiriamach:Perhaps her longevity was due to the fact that she had 'the body of but a weak and feeble woman but..the heart and stomach of a King...!I saw both the Cate Balnchett and the Helen Mirren films portrayals...I'm a bit of a history geek...Mirren's rendition of the speech to her troops at Tilbury made the hair stand up on the back of my neck...! Bess obviously had good speech writers mind you when you look at the calibre of her Court she was surrounded by brilliance...I'd love it if someone made a film about the Irish Queen with the O'Malley as the central role...maybe we should write the screenplay...You for Bess me for Grace...returning to the subject of language Latin of course was the language of scholars probably another reason she and Grace chose that as the preferred medium... Thanks for Joyce quote...wasn't familiar with that one...Someone once told me that Joyce said Irish men were either priests or homosexuals... are you aware of that one ...?I can't find it on web...Anon

• quixotic | Aug 01, 2011, 09:41 PM EDT

  Look, in order to ensure a sufficient number of 'vocations' the church abducted children as young as 13 to enter minor seminaries. Gullible Irish parents, in particular, were only too happy to have their children serve a life dedicated to Jesus. In order to maintain their 'vocation' the orders and the Bishops established lives of isolation for these children. Isolating them from families and temptations of the opposite sex these young peopole were isolated from families and natural association fromt he opposite sex. Their mentors were very aware of the danger and warned often of 'particular friendships'. they knew only too well what happened to young people who grew through puberty like this. Some were strong, many actually, and resisted acting on their fantasties. Others were not strong enough and acted on their attraction to nubile males. Once they faltered, it was only too easy to continue the behavior. Check on the time span of these horrible acts -- thirty or forty years ago. Exactly when the church was still abducting these young men. All the rest is just garbage.

• eiriamach | Aug 01, 2011, 07:52 PM EDT

  You're probably right, themurphia, and surely right about Q. Elizabeth's sex life. What did James Joyce say about history--that it was a nightmare he was trying to awaken from? I prefer fantasy to Elizabethan history for sure! The literature though, that's a different story. Did you see that film that came out about Q. Elizabeth a few years ago? It captured some of the fantastic parts of her life.

• themurphia | Aug 01, 2011, 05:32 PM EDT

  I think you are straying into the realms of fantasy now an muinteoir..!From what little I know I don't think she was short of courtiers willing to warm her up...On the language point I think French was the language of the Court...Scots Gaelic would be the language of peasants and from what I remember there was a little 'domestic' with the Scots cousin so my guess is that she wouldn't be that conversant with the Gallic but would have had enough to understand and make herself understood...her Latin was good and she had a prayer book which she read religiously haha...I know she died of smallpox hence the white masque she wore towards the end to hide the sores...irresistible!

• eiriamach | Aug 01, 2011, 05:11 PM EDT

  It's amazing that Elizabeth lived and reigned so long, given her medical background and the fact that, as a "virgin" she had to sit bare-chested in those drafty old damp castles and probably had pneumonia half the time!

• eiriamach | Aug 01, 2011, 05:08 PM EDT

  ancavker & themurphia, it's a fascinating discussion you're having! One question: was there a big difference between Scots Gaellc and Irish Gaelic in the 16th century? I recall reading somewhere that even in the 19th century, anyone with an island Gaelic language could travel up the coast of Ireland, into the smaller islands and on into Scotland, and be able to understand the Gaelic spoken by people along the way. My own great-grandfather, who grew up in Scotland, had great Irish, which was still the literary Gaelic language of Scotland when he was a schoolchild. The Irishwoman he met in Dublin and married about 1890 had not a word of it! As I think themurphia mentioned below, Q. Elizabeth probably had congenital syphilis that her mother got from her father. And the 'French pox' that Henry passed along to his wives was probably the reason why he had no surviving male offspring and why Elizabeth was infertile. This is medical guesswork by those who think they recognize the symptoms of sexually transmitted diseases in the portraits of the royals.

• McNamara31 | Aug 01, 2011, 04:52 PM EDT

  I think at this point we are looking too deep and far to rationalize why the church behaved in such a way. Recently one of my children told me that a student at his high school had been expelled for improper behavior. The principal reacted to the situation and removed the student from the school. A simple H.S. principal had more “common sense” (and ethics) than the Vatican and all the canon lawyers within. Why?

• themurphia | Aug 01, 2011, 12:43 PM EDT

  ancavker:possibly enough for small talk we can only speculate...but probably not sufficient for a meeting between rulers discussing matters of State and Territory...Elizabeth was deemed Queen of Ireland but Grace had other ideas.. I think Latin was the common political tongue for both...I find the whole subject quite fascinating...It gives a whole new perspective to me on the Anglo Irish Political history of the time...but I am a bit swotty...I read a bit more last night and the 'Virgin Queen' was definitely a misnomer given the speculaton about her relationships with mebers of her court not to mention with John Parr and whether or not she bore a child for him when she was very young... muinteoir eiriamach is right when he said Spenser used this fiction to political effect turning a negative image of 'Barren Bess' into a positive one of a patriotic 'Prince' prepared to forfeit marriage and motherhood for devotion to her country...Her decison to remain unmarried was as much because she was not prepared to marry a Catholic as her devotion to Albion...

• ancavker | Aug 01, 2011, 12:04 PM EDT

  themurphia: If she coversed in Scots Gaelic, than show would have at least a reasonable understanding of Irish.

• ancavker | Aug 01, 2011, 12:00 PM EDT

  yes forgave sins, but did He not also say go and sin no more? What for instance would a Priest do if one of his fellow Priests asked for forgiveness, received it, only to go out and do it again? How many times would this go on before the forgiving Priest said enough?

• themurphia | Aug 01, 2011, 06:53 AM EDT

  These extract from the Gospels seem to say it all really...'Whosoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me,it were bettter that a millstone were hanged around his neck and that he were drowned in the sea'...Matt18.16...not much about 'forgiveness' there...!I'm not usually given to quoting the Bible...amazing what you find in the dusty corners of your memory...!

• Gearoid4 | Jul 31, 2011, 04:34 PM EDT

  The Church's motto is "Ecclesia Semper reformanda"(The Church is always in need of reform"). This means in essence means an ability to purify the hearts and minds of both religious and laypeople to make them and by extension the Church closer ever more to Christ's will. The Church, under the present pope is attempting to grapple with the terrible sins that have been committed by those supposedly acting in Her Founder's name, by an ongoing program of spiritual, canonical and procedural reform. @Eiriamach, You blame the Church for encumbering the institute of marriage with too many "rules". Are you referring to Church teachings that state that marriage is for life, between one man and one woman and open to procreation? Maybe you are alluding to the guidelines which relate to the validity of sacramental marriages or those dealing with granting annulments or separations? The Church has not created rules just for their own sake. They are in conformity with the will of Christ to protect the integrity of marriage as a sacred Covenant. The Church during the early centuries was built around monastic settlements and did have practices that were at variance to some degree with those on the continent e.g hair tonsure. But the local church in Ireland was still part of Latin Christendom and there was no rigid conformity regarding liturgical practices as witnessed in the Gallican rite in ancient France or the Mozarbic rite which developed around Milan in northern Italy.

• eiriamach | Jul 31, 2011, 03:54 PM EDT

  Worldliness, Aughavey, it's such a drag, isn't it? But the challenge for a Christian, or for anyone who values either a life of the mind or a life of the Spirit, is not to retreat from it and then, from a safe distance and an aloof posture, ceaselessly complain about it, blame it for one's own or priests' failings, and condemn those who try to reform it as "secularists." The challenge is to be in it without being of it, to do one's little bit to transform it, to resist the lure of its materialism, to see the sacred in it, to hear an other-worldly sigh in its human sufferings. Yes, Gearoid4, Jesus warned us not to interfere with marriage, so why does the Church encumber it with so many rules not found in Jesus' words? themurphia, I'd guess (because I'm no historian) that the saints and scholars description goes back in time to when Western Christians were diverse in practice but not in separate sects, and the Irish had monastic practices that were so different from the Roman that they annoyed the Vatican for centuries!

• eiriamach | Jul 31, 2011, 03:22 PM EDT

  More triumphalism from tempranillo. "Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus" is infallible dogma? Not recently, not if it refers to the Church in Rome as a way of warning Christians away from other Christian churches. It rather refers to the whole of the faithful, and salvation extends as well to those whom Christianity does not reach. Vatican II corrected the triumphalist, narrow reading of the statement "outside the church, there is no salvation." (As another poster commented, RCC doctrine changes.) If a narrow reading were plausible, then every time a church official has pronounced an excommunication (countless times throughout history), he would be condemning a soul to everlasting damnation, and wouldn't that be a presumptuous thing for a human being to do, to put himself in the role of divine judge and bring down divine judgment on himself? And what about the hapless victims of pedophile priests who, unlistened to, neglected, and often scorned, have committed suicide? Are they burning in the fires of hell also because they fled from a church that claims "outside the church there is no salvation," or will the priests who violated them burn in hell for the despair of these children? As Machiavelli pointed out, it's better to be feared than loved, so when people like Enda Kenny do not express their love for HMC, expect HMC to trot out the doctrines of fear. Whether it's legitimate power or usurped power, power breeds cruelty.

• themurphia | Jul 31, 2011, 03:18 PM EDT

  'Prago' eiriamach...Ireland is referred to amongst other things as the 'Land of Saints and Scholars'...As a matter of interest could the term 'Saint' apply to anyone other than the Catholic wing of the Holy Ground...?

• Gearoid4 | Jul 31, 2011, 02:27 PM EDT

  You distort my point regarding the claim of the Catholic Church to be the one founded by Jesus Christ. I make a reasonable observation regarding the protestant reformation which even reasonable protestants do not refute i.e it led to thousands of splinter groups which continue to divide even to this day. You quote from the papal document "Ut Unum Sint". This encyclical drawn up by the late Blessed John Paul 11 was a prophetic work looking for the co-operation of fellow Christians to establish the central place of the papacy in uniting christians as the bible warrants. This does not cancel the points made in the papal Declaration "Dominus Iesus"(2000) that the Catholic Church was the one, true Church founded by Christ. One can state this in charity without denigrating the enlightening aspects of Christianity which are found in other Christian communities. Vatican 11 does not downplay the claims of the Catholic church while recognizing the truths found in other Christian churches and ecclesial communities. Good points, Aughavey. I agree fully with your statement that the Catholic Church's lack of transparency and accountability has led to the current travails that she is experiencing

• Gearoid4 | Jul 31, 2011, 02:26 PM EDT

  @eiriamach, You stated that Christ taught nothing about sexual morality. This statement is very wide of the mark Consider these direct quotes from Jesus Himself: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."(Matthew 5:27-28) Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."(Matthew 19). Clearly Jesus warned against sexual relations which violated the sacred union of marriage between one man and one woman.

• tempranillo | Jul 31, 2011, 02:23 PM EDT

  Of course Bishops would be forgiving to errant priests…Consider the following…From the Papal Bull, Cantate Domino issued by Eugene IV, Pont. Max at The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445)…It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church …a rather strong motivator to seek forgiveness & to be forgiven…

• eiriamach | Jul 31, 2011, 02:22 PM EDT

  Students not only inspire teachers, themurphia, but teachers learn more from students than any other source! Thanks for the info on Grace O'M.

• themurphia | Jul 31, 2011, 02:17 PM EDT

  I've just read that 10,0000 years ago a squirrel could have hopped from one end of Ireland to the other...Don't ask...!That's just NUTS...!

• Aughavey | Jul 31, 2011, 01:00 PM EDT

  Gearoid4 says: "People want to Church to conform to their worldly ideals by turning it into a democratized institution where doctrine can be changed at a whim. But this will lead to dissension and schism as the protestant reformation has clearly demonstrated" - I agree with the first part about the people wanting the church to conform to worldliness whereas the church is called to take a stand against worldliness (prodigal son a case in point) and I partially agree regarding schism in the Protestant denominations BUT lack of transparency and unaccountability in the Roman Catholic Church has long been a problem and the worldwide abuse scandals are a case in point.

• Pittsburghkid | Jul 31, 2011, 12:42 PM EDT

  Yes, If the Catholic Church would give its blessing to Abortion, then this would be over. Pedophiles seek out professions that give them access to children. This is why, you rarely hear of plumber, electrician, or carpenters being pedophile. Most pedophiles are teacher, clergery, Boy Scout Leaders, day care workers, etc. The problem for the Catholic Church is that the statute of limitation was extended for Priest. This means that case are being brough up from the past fifty years. This makes the problem appear more severe then it actually is.

• themurphia | Jul 31, 2011, 12:21 PM EDT

  In a nutshell I guess Granuaile was letting Bess know 'You're not the Boss of me...'!

• themurphia | Jul 31, 2011, 12:15 PM EDT

  It seems Grace and Bess were equally matched in linguistic department...and by all accounts conversed in Latin English French and Scots Gaelic as ELizabeth had no Irish...although she apparently commissioned a language testbook in Irish in order no doubt that she would not be outwitted...The offer of the title of Count probably a Courtly pun designed to flatter to deceive was rightly rejected by Granualie who considered them equals...Ditto her refusal to bow thereby refusing to acknowledge Bess as Boss Queen of Ireland...There's my home girl...! Fascinating stuff...only good teachers inspire'students' to learn more about a subject...grma eiriamach

• bonjouryall | Jul 31, 2011, 11:18 AM EDT

  It doesn't explain the practice of recycling or dumping pedophile priests to parishes where the people were ignorant of his past activities and taking no precautions. The writer's thesis assumes the church leaders made no review of literature on the recidivision rate of pedophiles and were not interested in doing so, despite the reoccurance of this problem over many years in many countries.

• tempranillo | Jul 31, 2011, 11:09 AM EDT

  Forgiveness, a belief in the power of penance & contrition being able to transform sinful men into good priests;---these idealistic motivations do not explain systematic cover-ups to 'preserve the good name' of HMC. Nor, does foregivess toward the abuser explain the lack thereof toward the abused. Perhaps I misunderstand

• PaulFagan | Jul 31, 2011, 10:11 AM EDT

  Great posts- themurphy, eiriamach, especially Catholic triumphalism.

• barneyjo | Jul 31, 2011, 10:07 AM EDT

  @Gearoid4 - " where doctrine can be changed at a whim." Are you seriously suggesting the the Vatican has never been culpable in this regard????

• PaulFagan | Jul 31, 2011, 10:04 AM EDT

  AoifeNicSeáin hits the nail on the head

• themurphia | Jul 31, 2011, 09:58 AM EDT

  The Tudors/Stuarts was my favourite period of history at school..however we were not taught about Granuaile..no surprise there...Seems I am going to have to learn both Irish and Irish History when I set up shop in the Wesht...As far as 'An ceann de mo dheirfiur' is concerned..all I can say is... anyone who threatened or offered violence to a member of my family would have to get past me first...Seems the 'poxy' (literally) old monarch was like a man in more ways than one in personal as well as political relationships...!

• eiriamach | Jul 31, 2011, 09:24 AM EDT

  themurphia, Q. Elizabeth I could love and hate with equal passion. Dudley nearly paid for their affair with imprisonment in the Tower, but was one of the few who escaped the worst of her wrath. Power breeds cruelty!

• eiriamach | Jul 31, 2011, 09:15 AM EDT

  Gearoid4, the popes of Vatican II did not share your contempt for "dissension and schism as the protestant reformation has clearly demonstrated." Your description is Catholic triumphalism at its most alienating. Consider the corrective of Ut Unum Sint: "Thanks to ecumenism, our contemplation of 'the mighty works of God' (mirabilia Dei) has been enriched by new horizons, for which the Triune God calls us to give thanks: the knowledge that the Spirit is at work in other Christian Communities, the discovery of examples of holiness, the experience of the immense riches present in the communion of saints, and contact with unexpected dimensions of Christian commitment. In a corresponding way, there is an increased sense of the need for repentance: an awareness of certain exclusions which seriously harm fraternal charity, of certain refusals to forgive, of a certain pride, of an unevangelical insistence on condemning the 'other side', of a disdain born of an unhealthy presumption. Thus, the entire life of Christians is marked by a concern for ecumenism; and they are called to let themselves be shaped, as it were, by that concern." Promoting one's own sect by denigrating others is a rejection of this spirit of Christian unity and thus also of the repentance and ongoing reform that Christians are called to. It ignores the fact that other Christians have been coming to terms with today's world and taking on its challenges in faithfulness to the gospel. What have you been doing for the sake of progress?

• themurphia | Jul 31, 2011, 09:06 AM EDT

  I'm grateful eiriamach...but that was not my point...as I think you know...I expect the bastard queen's clandestine liaisons with Dudley Earl of Leicester were as pure as the driven slush...well no prizes for guessing who I'd line up with in a Battle of the Warrior Queens...She was a formidable old Battleaxe tho'...

• eiriamach | Jul 31, 2011, 08:51 AM EDT

  I forgot to mention that it was the pope who directed Machiavelli to publish his 'anatomy of power' translated into Italian so that his bishops could read it. Doubtless, Lizzie could thank the Vatican for some of her learning.

• eiriamach | Jul 31, 2011, 08:44 AM EDT

  themurphia, anyone who looks at Tudor history can respect Q. Elizabeth's learning. She had mastered so many languages that she never needed a translator and therefore could keep all her chats with foreign diplomats secret from court intrigues. And anyone can admire her unmatched ability to protect her reign with powerful myth-making (a "virgin queen," dedicated entirely to the welfare of her people--laugh-- but not out loud!) with the help of poets like Spenser. But at the same time, anyone looking into Tudor history must be appalled by Elizabeth's extravagant uses and abuses of absolute power. She mastered the precepts of Machiavelli's "Prince" and often referred to herself as "Prince" to underscore the association. Her virginity was clever PR entirely, but make no mistake-- if your sister had called it "virgin on the ridiculous" in the hearing of Elizabeth's court spies, 't'would be "off with her head" in a flash! In Elizabeth's generation, only Granuaile could match her courage. It took considerable gumption to challenge Elizabeth's decisions, and Granuaile did that to her face with Elizabeth's court as witnesses. Interesting ladies, both of them.

• themurphia | Jul 31, 2011, 07:59 AM EDT

  Someone below...mentions that Catholicism has always been held up to ridicule because of Articles of Faith e.g. the Virgin Birth...however the same has not been the case re Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn's bastard the so called Virgin Queen...so no irony/hypocrisy there then...Just thought I'd mintion it like...or as someone once said to my sister in someahat differnt circumstances that's virgin on the ridiculous...!

• Collette2 | Jul 31, 2011, 07:31 AM EDT

  I too agree with your friends opinion Niall, but wer'e talking about children as young 4years old in some instances, treated like rag dolls. As an adult male, can you bear to imagine it. To truly be complicit, being caught in emotions that we are taught not to trust, outweighs the presumption that Jesus would forgive and allow back into his ministry continuing to offend such as these.

• themurphia | Jul 31, 2011, 06:58 AM EDT

  Aoife: love that word 'childer'...

• AoifeNicSeáin | Jul 31, 2011, 06:28 AM EDT

  Niall, your friend's opinion makes sense - in it's very own frame. But those compassionate men and women produced uncountable victims, so the logical cosequence of these thoughts can't be any other than seriously question this very frame. In effect your friend produced philosophical evidence that Christian principles are unfit to run a society. I don't mind them priests doing whatever they feel "good" among consenting adults, but please x-rate the church and keep them away from our childer.

• eiriamach | Jul 31, 2011, 06:27 AM EDT

  Gearoid4, what distortions and exaggerations you write! I wrote nothing about "unlimited rights," only about equal rights under civil law. The Church fights equality under the law on a global scale with expensive, vigorous lobbying efforts. I wrote nothing challenging the "inviolability" life, but only asserted the responsibility of heterosexual couples to decide when and whether to have children. And the sexual stirrings of youth I alluded to are not "promiscuous life style outside [the marriage] bond," but the need for intimacy and growth in relationships with peers. To forbid such relationships is to stunt personal growth. While societies may be "sex-saturated," they have also learned to extend equal rights to all and to protect spouses and children from abuse; "secular society" has been a source of moral progress as well as distraction from the life of the spirit-- posing both opportunity and challenge to Christians. The moral teachings of the Church are most certainly "a method of Church control." Christ preached nothing about sexual morality, and after Him the disciples defended the 'freedom of the children of God' to follow their consciences on sexual matters short of polygamy. Christ refused even to condemn prostitutes and never asked anyone's sexual orientation before enlisting him or her as a follower. John XXIII knew that the teachings of the Church on sexual morality were radically in need of reform in terms of medical science and psychology, but that reform was, in Carroll09's word, "hijacked" beginning in the 1960s with Church opposition to secular progress.

• citizen69 | Jul 31, 2011, 05:10 AM EDT

  This ties in with the theory put forward in an Irish Times article that Catholic countries are supposedly more corrupt because attaining forgiveness for sin is just too easy.

• helmet365 | Jul 30, 2011, 10:43 PM EDT

  Niall, And futher to my last post i note other comments in your article like"not bad men but misguided" or "to see the error of his ways" etc. this is very Christ like. Tell me is it also Christ like to put down the victims as making a lot of it up and defending these clerics to the last with our money and having legal teams and QC legal representation which the victims could not afford? Bishop George Pell of Sydney now Cardinal Pell sometimes had six in his legal team including top QC's in his defence of church disgusting behavoir. The Church must change or die.

• Gearoid4 | Jul 30, 2011, 10:02 PM EDT

  @Eiriamach, The Church's teaching on such subjects as Reproduction rights(code for abortion) or sexual purity are not the products of repressed male minds but rather based on the gospels based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, her Founder. This tendency to filter everything through the distorted lens of unlimited rights based on gender and sexual politics just parodies the life-giving teachings of the Church. True Christianity values all life and supports the inviolability of a person's right to exist from conception to natural death. The innate integrity of each person is also present in the teachings regarding sexual morality i.e sex is a gift to be enjoyed between husband and wife and not to be abused in a promiscuous life-style outside of this sacred bond. The teaching on sexual purity is a direct, radical challenge to the sex-saturated nature of society today and is truly counter-cultural in a biblical sense. To judge it as a method of Church control is to totally misunderstood the rationale behind it. People want to Church to conform to their worldly ideals by turning it into a democratized institution where doctrine can be changed at a whim. But this will lead to dissension and schism as the protestant reformation has clearly demonstrated

• helmet365 | Jul 30, 2011, 09:11 PM EDT

  "Sex abuse led to 26 suicides:policeman."This quote is from the The Age newspaper Melbourne Australia July 30 2011,referring to two catholic church clerical abusers. These abusers would have been to confession on numerous occasions and have been forgiven. Still you use terms like "bad wrap",and "philoposphy of forgiveness". Tell that to the parents of the decent young people who lost their lives and the numerous victims still suffering from what happened to them by these two men of the cloth. Your article is a soft defence of the catholic church and the victims will keep coming. You just don't get it do you?

• mamaginnty | Jul 30, 2011, 08:53 PM EDT

  they have a law unto themselves. Were the nuns forgiving each other as well after beating the young girls in the homes, and selling the babies. They showed no forgivness towards the young women, telling them they were trash, evil, sinners. Yet so evil themselves.

• SingleDonald | Jul 30, 2011, 08:28 PM EDT

  eiriamach, This is an EXCELLENT post, immediately below! I have always had problems with the radical elements of feminism, but who can argue with your view that " ...for centuries this church culture has supported misogynist male authority in Western societies"? You hit the bulls eye when you wrote of the church preaching virginity only to keep young people tractable. As I have previously said, if Jesus must get between a boy/man and girl/woman while they dance, HE needs to see an earthly shrink!! A 1970's movie, set in a Caholic High School, had a brother warn dancing kids to "leave some room for Jesus"!! Happily, the confession lines are much shorter today, than they were when we were kids, as people don't feel guilt ridden over looking at Playboy/Playgirl, and associated sexual activities. That being said, I still would respect any girl, who wished to keep her virginity intact, until she got married. Yes, I could go out with her, and do what would be right for her. Some old childhood beliefs just won't die; it's called respect for the female gender!

• eiriamach | Jul 30, 2011, 07:51 PM EDT

  "Forgiving" bad priests is an abuse of power, not compassion. Sometimes I think the problem of sexual abuse is complex and there's a need for articles like this that try to understand it while still condemning it. It's complex because it's part of a culture of abuse of power. And we should try to understand it because for centuries this church culture has supported misogynist male authority in Western societies. Church culture shields sexually abusive priests so that the Church will be seen as celibate, virtuous, and worthy of its power. But power has a seamy underside: sadism-- getting pleasure from causing others pain or humiliation. Priests and bishops reveal their own repressed sadistic temptations when they condemn homosexuals, when they enforce reproductive irresponsibility on women as 'moral law,' when they preach virginity only to keep young people tractable,and when they claim hypocritically to safeguard childhood purity. They hide their lust for power until, confident that no one will dare expose men who can impersonate the "authority" of Christ so well, they unleash their sadism and molest the children entrusted to them. This culture cannot change until the laity reject hierarchic authority along with Church teachings on sex and gender roles. It will not change until churchmen accept women as equals, including as priests, bishops. It will not change until they face a humbling fact: "secular culture," which Church officials try to blame for sexual abuses by priests and religious, has been a moral force for equality and a more genuine protector of children than the Church has ever pretended to be.

• themurphia | Jul 30, 2011, 04:56 PM EDT

  I know sexual abuse is rife in English 'public schools'...Public Schools are anything but...Eton and Harrow and Ampleforth the Catholic Public Schools being the premier league...Masters obviously turn a blind eye to it so to some extent collude/condone it...Have there been any cases of clerical sexual abuse in the equivalent Irish schools...or were the Paedophiles able to control their lust for the chikldren of Government Ministers and the Elite of Irish Society...? The RCC was of course guilty of gross hypocrisy... having instilled guilt into children in the name of God they then abused them physically emotionally destroying their Faith into the bargain...I wonder if the inordinate suicide rate in Ireland is is related to sexual abuse...self harm/medication is a recognised symptom of low self esteem...those who find this subject a laughing matter may yet be laughing on the other side of their faces...!

• Towngate | Jul 30, 2011, 03:58 PM EDT

  Niall, a chara, it's generous of you to give your friend's point of view a good airing, and who knows,he may he right. ~ So; as the monsters buggered the screaming children they believed God would always forgive them. ~~~ A dying relative said to me ruefully: " If it turns out there is no God after all ~ then we Catholics have been RIGHTLY CODDED!"

• Brolaur | Jul 30, 2011, 03:40 PM EDT

  Ask Michele Bachman!

• barneyjo | Jul 30, 2011, 03:39 PM EDT

  Niall - This totally overlooks the fact that it is now well documented that over time, Bishops from many irish diocese sent abusing priests to specialised treatment centres.This was most notably in England (Stroud) and to the USA on the advice of clinical practicioners in Ireland. This could only have been due to the increasing awarness of the tendency of serial abusers to re-offend, despite assurances to the contrary. The proffered excuse of "ignorance is bliss" may have had some initial validity, but medical advice would have negated this idea over time.

• calif4511 | Jul 30, 2011, 03:21 PM EDT

  I think pedophilia has, possibly for centuries, been so ingrained into the priesthood culture that it was not given much consideration until someone had the courage to speak up, starting about twenty years ago. Deep, dark secrets are a thing of the past. Thank God.

• bcoc1124 | Jul 30, 2011, 02:35 PM EDT

  I don't buy it. We all know that if a priest steals from the collection box - as some have - he may well be forgiven, but he would never be put in a position where he would handle money - NEVER! Why then were child rapists repeatedly - world-wide- put in places where they could continue to rape children? Simple - the church cares more for money than for children.

• themurphia | Jul 30, 2011, 02:31 PM EDT

  Intellectualising contextualising theosophising it makes no difference...These were CRIMES against humanity...children...that were covered up to protect the RCC...Systemic Institutionalised abuse...Not only the children but the parents were abused for having had the children...by the church and by the community...There is no justification mitigation or basis for forgiveness...It is interesting that the people truly out/raged by this most outrageous topic are the women posters...'No Justice No Peace'...

• Portia777 | Jul 30, 2011, 02:11 PM EDT

  No more excuses.

• Portia777 | Jul 30, 2011, 02:10 PM EDT

  Jesus has nothing to do with the "holly" Roman church of Molach.He was brought into the scam to make suffering OK and good for the soul so the evil ones could feed off our energy.The more suffering,the better for them- more food. These people are energy and sexual predators with most energy stolen while raping an innocent child. Now many priests can also see how they too were hood winked by those at the top of the pyramid of power.

• laallyboy | Jul 30, 2011, 01:46 PM EDT

  Well, I'm sure he means well, but it's all a bit irrelevant. The essential facts are: 1. when you put a bunch of males in a seminary, they become just as subject to the "prisoner effect" as the inmates in San Quentin, i.e., they start having sex with each other, usually the older and more powerful ones "using" the younger ones; 2. young entrants to Irish seminaries (many in early teens) were generally unable to leave,no matter what was going on, because entry was effectively a means of social mobility in Ireland, and leaving would have reflected negatively on them and their families; 3. once they've been there for a while, this sort of stuff becomes "normal" and thus is transmitted to the next crop of entrants; 4. once a guy has lived under these conditions for a while, he is not fit for the outside world w/o a lot of counselling, but they didn't get it of course, because the "secret" had to be kept. Ergo, the whole institution is sick, which is not to say it did not produce a good many very admirable idealists who managed to somehow avoid these distortions that so many fell prey to.

• CitizenWhy | Jul 30, 2011, 01:22 PM EDT

  yes, the misguided church needs guidance, and got the wrong guidance from Rome In my Catholic school I was taught that forgiveness demanded justice - sincere repentance based on knowing that what you did was wrong and caused harm, determination not to sin again, and reparation/restitution for the victims of what you did. Somewhere along the line this was replaced with a sentimental idea of forgiveness, especially when you are cozy with the wrong doers. Thomas Aquinas taught justice requires STOPPING the wrongdoer. The church may have been naive about how to handle narcissists and sociopaths, which many of these priests were. But their schwaltzy idea of forgiveness led us into evil and delivered no one from temptation. The idea that these crimes were repeated due to a misguided idea of forgiveness is another way of saying that the "infallible" church is quite fallible after all, teaching false doctrine to its priests.. But the church will never admit its fallibility, and the fallibility of the sainted John Paul II in his evasion of responsibility for crimes he obviously considered of no great importance next to the self-interest of the "church."

• Portia777 | Jul 30, 2011, 01:07 PM EDT

  Oh yes, there are psychologists etc who claim to be able to cure child rapists and sexual predators. The truth is some of these professionals also get their kicks from listening to the criminals. Also there is MONEY to be made by psychologists etc too. lest we forget to mention the men of god- so called experts coming up with false memory syndrome to discredit more victims of rape and torture. Nice one that.It is all about the money.it does not end with the men of god though. In family law courts convicted pedophiles are being full custody of their children and protective parent written out of the children lives. Why? Because psychiatrist Richard Gardiner had a theory that the only reason fatheres raped their children was because the mother denied them sex and fathers are entitled to have sex with their daughters. His theories have destroyed the lives of many children worldwide and still doing so as I write. once again it is the star chamber secret courts which keeps the public from knowing this. Gardiner and his theory was alive in irish courts in 1995.

• Bernadett | Jul 30, 2011, 01:06 PM EDT

  WELL SAID CREED08,THEY ALL KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND WHERE THEY COULD HIDE.LETS NOT FORGET THE INJUSTICE WAS DONE TO THE CHILDREN.THE CATHOLIC PEDOPHILE PRIESTS AND THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO CARRY ON THEIR SICK AMORAL LIFE STYLE BECAUSE THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE R.C.C DID NOTHING.

• Portia777 | Jul 30, 2011, 12:57 PM EDT

  No man in a dress can forgive another- Universal law applies and supercedes man's law, cannon law etc. The criminal must forgive him/her self.This forgiveness "business" is the same as all patriarchal religions- if we bother to read their sacred texts. The priests have been programmed- brainwashed to forgive others, when in fact they do not have the divine right to forgive anyone. This was all created by self made demi gods which led to the sheeple giving them the power over them. My 4 year old could work it out. Why not adults?

• Porickseantuny | Jul 30, 2011, 12:49 PM EDT

  The seal of confession does not start at the confessional door and request for absolution. It starts in any confession situation. When the sin is confessed to a priest he may not reveal it upon pain of excommunication. However, re assigning admitted sinners to an occasion of sin is the sin by the Bishops. Such assignments endangered not only the person of the victims but the very soul of the sinner who allegedly sought forgiveness

• Portia777 | Jul 30, 2011, 12:49 PM EDT

  A leading Catholic lay figure I know who is a deeply compassionate and caring man gives a different read on the church crisis in Ireland than you will read anywhere else." Tell him then to give his children to the predator rapist men of Molach and see how easy it is for him to forgive. let him watch the life long suffering of his children and then say it is easy to forgive these psychopathic, perferted, sadistic men of god Molach. This church is hierarchial, so bottom has no idea of the top- Jesuit creation for a reason.

• JuneAnnette | Jul 30, 2011, 12:44 PM EDT

  They are receiving their JUST DESSERT . . as it is written: “And as ye would that man should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” (Luke 6:31) The depraved acts these sick and twisted paedophile priests performed on innocent children in order to satisfy their insatiable and unnatural sexual appetites would fill even the most hardened criminal with disgust and disdain, and would be met with revulsion by the most ungodly and irreligious man amongst us. They must now endure the universal contempt, scorn, derision, and disdain being meted out to them and reserved for those who commit such abominable acts! The intense scrutiny their monstrous crimes are receiving by the media, publicly subjecting them to the same humiliation, shame, reproach, and degradation in the eyes of the worldwide community which they themselves imposed upon their innumerable powerless and vulnerable victims whom they callously and mercilessly sexually raped and molested, in what they themselves reckon to be the “Worst Crime”, exacts a kind of poetic justice if nothing else. The time has come for the predator priests and bullying bishops to know what it is to have nowhere to hide and nowwhere to turn for a sympathetic ear. The time has come for predator priests and bullying bishops who abused their position and power to feel utterly POWERLESS! The time has come for them to endure the unreserved censure of the world community for their gross immorality, deviant behaviour and unspeakable acts of depravity. The time has come for the predator priests and bullying bishops to endure the torment, grief and anguish in their souls that their innocent victims endured for decades in unbearable silence. The time is come for predator priests and bullying bishops to hang their collective heads in shame. “For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; nor hid, that shall not be known.” (Luke 12:2)

• creed08 | Jul 30, 2011, 12:36 PM EDT

  What a crock!! These men knew they were doing wrong, the bishops knew, or should have, that pedophiles do not change, they must be removed from any contact with children. They were so worried about the scandal hitting the church that they stole the innocence of thousands of children. THEY DIDN'T CARE, THEY ONLY WANTED TO COVER THEIR OWN BEHINDS AND WERE WILLING TO SACRIFICE WHOEVER THEY HAD TO ACCOMPLISH THIS. i WILL NEVER BE CONVINCED OTHERWISE. I was raised catholic, and escaped as soon as I was able. There is not a reason in this world to justify what catholic priests have done to generations of our children.

• themurphia | Jul 30, 2011, 12:23 PM EDT

  People do not become paedophiles in their 20's ..they know their sexuality/sexual preferences long before that...therefore entering the Priesthood knowing that you were sexually attracted to children was a conscious decison presenting too great an opportunity for these predators to miss...The utter dePPravity of these rePPtiles is beyond rePPellant...Not to mention the misogyny and exploitation of the poor and elderly...relieved of their pension by the local Parish Paedophile every week without compunction...they should be hunted down and prosecuted every last one of them...and the church made responsible for the damages emotional spritual and financial to their victims...

• buffaloirishman | Jul 30, 2011, 12:15 PM EDT

  Another "save the institution" explanation of a true virtue. Forgiveness means acknowledgement of a wrong and a commitment to not do it again. Your friend seems more concerned with "saving the institution" rather than standing with the violated.

• glorybe1929 | Jul 30, 2011, 12:07 PM EDT

  This priest has forgotten the whole premise of God's creation....."Love one another,( BIG OR LITTLE, YOUNG OR OLD, HANDICAPPED OR MARGINALIZED), as I have loved you!" Forgivness is what life is all about. But....I guess he has forgotten about the SIN AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHICH IS UNFORGIVEABLE!!! Think about that one? It's called BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT. How could you best do that? By taking full advantage of your higher place in life and using JESUS CHRIST as your means to seduce those who have no one but the SPIRIT to defend themselves against you. There is no forgiveness from God Almighty and there should be no forgiveness from you,unless HE guides you to that! They deliberatly planned their scenario, by picking the vunerble ones, then grooming them to be slaughtered... What could be worse in the eyes of God than a PREMEDITATE SIN AGAINST HIM who lives within these precious children of GOD????? Name one!

• themurphia | Jul 30, 2011, 11:36 AM EDT

  And please stop calling these PPaedophiles priests...they are not Priests they are perverted predators...I am a cradle Catholic I saw at first hand the 'compassion' of the Church when my mother sought advice regarding the risk of further pregnancies to her her health...I was schooled by nuns...they still creep me out with there halitosis body odour and sly looks over the changing rooms doors...freaking weirdos...Nor do I have any regard for Priests but I did have regard for my religion and still love parts of it...But I will support every effort to get rid of these charlatans..I suspect many were called to the opportunity to practise their perversions than to serve God...May they die roaring the lot of them...How dare they continue to try and pull the wool over peoples eyes...Papal Bull...

• PaulFagan | Jul 30, 2011, 11:33 AM EDT

  Agree 100% with eiramach. Also, we are dealing with innocent children who were victims of clerical sexual child abuse over decades. Your editorial does not explain the widespread and decades long clerical sexual abuse of children in Ireland. Enda Kenny understands. Niall, was your editorial designed to trigger a response from your readership?

• eiriamach | Jul 30, 2011, 11:16 AM EDT

  Aspects of Catholic moral teachings about sex can have the effect of stunting the psychosexual and emotional development of believers, and I'd expect that this effect is stronger on those who enter religious life. But I cannot believe that any reputable psychologists would ever tell church leaders that pedophiles can be cured except in exceptional cases. They certainly cannot be cured if they remain in priest positions in a Church that caters to their attraction to vulnerable, innocent children! The recidivism rate for sex offenders has always been high. It's time for church officials to "grow up" --to develop a mature attitude toward sex and to treat sex offenders as criminals.

• dublinsean | Jul 30, 2011, 11:02 AM EDT

  While being all too aware of the monstrous activities of these pedophile men and women,my heart goes out to the very many good men and women,Priests, Christian Brothers and Nuns whose hearts must be broken, as we are as this denoument continues. I was educated by the Christian Brothers in Dublin beginning at age seven until I graduated from St. Joseph Secondary School(Joeys) to your readers from Dublin. I can attest to the integrity of every single Christian Brother, these were men for whom teaching was an avocation.I can vividly recall the countless hours they spent doing "exta time " with us to prepare for exams,and on top of all that, they coached and encouraged us in Gaelic Football and Hurling. My point is that we should not tar these communities of men with the same brush as those who comitted these awful crimes.

• AngelPrecious | Jul 30, 2011, 10:53 AM EDT

  Phlutie, exactly. Psychologists were telling Bishops and Church leaders that these pedophilles could be cured and rehabilitated. Believe me, I am not condoning any of the perverted acts. This article does give one room for thought. @Colkelley, you haven't even come close to a true understanding. Your twisted hatred of the Catholic Church has come out loud and clear in all your posts on this topic.

• PhlutiePhan | Jul 30, 2011, 10:18 AM EDT

  I believe that conventional wisdom at the time believed that pedophilia was a sin that could be overcome. Modern thought is that pedophilia is an addiction similar to that of alcohol and cocaine. In AA, the offender has to admit in the existence of a higher power and his/her inability to control their use. Pedophilia is similar but we do not know enough yet about the entire problem. This is a good and fair article not saying if there is enough information to agree or disagree. It is "food for thought".

• colkelley | Jul 30, 2011, 09:52 AM EDT

  Bull! It is a matter of protecting themselves and protecting the Church. Forgiveness...over and over and over...is like the medieval practice of plenary indulgence (paying to be forgiven past, present, and future sins and be guaranteed a place in Heaven regardless). Terrible that an atheist such as myself understands better the Church motivation than the "expert."

• themurphia | Jul 30, 2011, 09:50 AM EDT

  'Fool me once shame on you...fool me twice shame on me'...moving these PPerverts around was not forgiveness it was cover up...however you try to rationalise it...The Catholic Church is a busted flush...let them make recompense and then fade away...for the safety of children everywhere...'Don't get fooled again'...