132 Comments

• themurphia | Jul 11, 2011, 01:29 PM EDT

  All men are created equal but some have more mothers than others...if the cap Fitz wear it...isn't that right Mammy..?

• kinvara7 | Jul 11, 2011, 07:46 AM EDT

  Thank you casualMBA, you must have been good at drama in school, because your post is quite theatrical (it is a style that many here on IC seem to adopt, I believe the idea is to present oneself as the Shakespearian fool; as if there was method in the madness). Now…exit, pursued by a (polar)bear!

• kinvara7 | Jul 11, 2011, 07:17 AM EDT

  Thank you casualMBA, you must have been good at drama in school, because your post is quite theatrical (it is a style that many here on IC seem to adopt, I believe the idea is to present oneself as the Shakespearian fool; as if there was method in the madness). Now…exit, pursued by a (polar)bear!

• themurphia | Jul 10, 2011, 05:54 AM EDT

  The many headed beast of the hydra stalks these boards...the genetic mutation of some prehistoric creature...manifesting itslf variously as lawyer liar and leprechaun...in reality one undivided self...Do you know who it is yet...work it out...!

• casualMBA | Jul 09, 2011, 08:24 PM EDT

  (the deLacy brothers having foisted themselves upon Ulster's politics, and, I imagine, in the course of it, leveled their crossbows - true, an inapt cannon - at the O'Neills)

• casualMBA | Jul 09, 2011, 08:07 PM EDT

  Yikes!! correction! it would be ... Anglo-Irish Ascendancy (or de Lacy) cannons (not canons)...

• casualMBA | Jul 09, 2011, 07:32 PM EDT

  murphia'malley,..From the field of lepers I am, like the case of blind Rafferty, only a Gall revision of him with his empty pockets, existing not on nettles, I am, but on the stability o f a functional system, charging - into the figurative Valley - the Gael and Anglo-Ascendancy cannons, and living to tell of the "righted" ship.

• themurphia | Jul 09, 2011, 04:00 PM EDT

  casualMBA:Yes a heart does beat beneath this shield...and I would like it to beat a little longer...I do not want to feel in danger of my life because of death threats posted on a blog by someone cannot take NO for an answer...but yes o'merta from now on...slan a abhaile

• themurphia | Jul 09, 2011, 03:44 PM EDT

  casualMBA:Glad you liked my 'Polar Birr' story...don't you just think it's just Birrrrrrrilliant...Btw Birr is the coldest place in Ireland so it's only right that the Polarati should hail (hehe)from there...this argument is turning into a bit of a turkey to mix zoological ...well ornithological actually... metaphors...and is in danger of disappearing up it's own Aras...Legislation is not set in stone otherwise we would still send children up chimneys...men could still beat their wives with a stick no thicker than the width of their thumb and women would not have the vote...still no rest for the wigged...let's move on...!First the FitzGeralds now the O'Neills do I take it you are from the fourth Green field casualMBA?

• casualMBA | Jul 09, 2011, 12:47 PM EDT

  kinvara7, you must have been a fine typist, as well as a thinker, in school...in hopes of my own brevity, I will utilize the vernacular...nominal charges with one's vote?...decidedly a "turn off"...would "diaspora distasteful" convey the meaning?...it will not fly...this dog will not hunt...unless the goal is to bastion one's self as a VERSION of the populace with a protective arm thrown about the plate of political participation...in America, it is a turkey at a hot summer cookout, and not at Thanksgiving...case overstated perhaps, but catch my drift?...on constituencies, take the example of the O'Neills, whose forebears(in this event not polar,)lords, and chieftains have struck for Irish freedom(and Catholicism I might add, though many, not unexpectedly in Northern Ireland, may have changed affiliation since) and their disenfranchisement not only from the Republic but from a political process as theoretically "diaspora" and their entitlement to compensation from a sovereign nation getting its books in order and "righting" its ship of state. Is this in an enfranchisement plan?

• kinvara7 | Jul 09, 2011, 08:31 AM EDT

  Noreen you are being very selective as regards your comments on the Committe of the Constitution (and perhaps you attach more weight to their recomendations than you should). You should have mentioned that in their conclusion to the issue of emmigrant voting they state that: 'Other aspects of the IEVC’s argument are less convincing, in our view. It makes much of the indivisibility of citizenship, and argues that the entitlement to vote should be treated as an essential aspect of citizenship. But the IEVC itself draws a distinction between Irishborn citizens and others.' Furthermore, and very importantly you omitted the following: 'The IEVC’s argument that a constitutional amendment would not be necessary to extend Dáil votes to emigrants, on the basis that the number of deputies is determined with reference to the population, and not to the number of voters - and that therefore the number of voters on the roll in any given constituency is immaterial in framing constituency boundaries - is certainly sustainable on a straightforward reading of the text. In our view, HOWEVER, the alternative interpretation is also possible, in that one could argue that the maintenance of constituencies with substantially differing ratios of electors to deputies would run contrary to the intent of the framers of the Constitution and to the strongly territorial basis of our electoral system' [emphasis added]. In my 'learned' opinion the later argument is correct, and has been considered so by a former Atorney General. The conclusion of the report was that: 'The right to vote in Dáil elections should remain confined to citizens ordinarily resident in the state, and to such other classes of resident as are determined by law.'

• kinvara7 | Jul 09, 2011, 07:09 AM EDT

  Noreen: You can call my ideas dumb if you want; good manners are a matter for yourself. You say that you are neutral about the tax issue, but Noreen, let's be honest you clearly are not neutral; you have spoken against it elsewhere. Therefore I think you're being disingenuous in that regard. Could you explain how requiring non-resident citizens (who can) to contribute a small nominal amount in return for postal voting would be 'impractical and costly'? Another weak argument, because the complete opposite is the truth. Furthermore, goodwill and responsibility are different concepts. When one does something that they have no duty or responsibility to do, that is goodwill. Citizens have responsibilities; good citizens also extend goodwill. Indeed your list of 'goodwill' acts, ignores important facts (such as Ireland's investment in the US and our low corporate tax rate) and I have already discussed those issues below. Your version of our Republic is flawed. You seek the maximum amount of rights, for the least amount of contribution (zero it would appear). For how long could a Republic survive if it kept running such 'democratic deficits'? You say that you are in favour of citizens living up to their responsibilities, yet the only responsibility you mention is voting. What other responsibilities do you think citizens should 'live up to'? Or is voting the only one?

• casualMBA | Jul 08, 2011, 06:42 PM EDT

  beneath that shield, o'mearta, there is a heart...now shhh yourself on Ireland's persecuted IT

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 04:13 PM EDT

  Actually threatening commenters seems to be a trait amongst IT writers..Ellis threatened George if I remeber correctly...maybe it's part of the IT hack job description/person specification to have an unpleasant disposition...?

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 03:37 PM EDT

  Returning to my friend Ursus maritimus hibernicus...if hIS great great great great great great great great grandfather came from Offaly...he might be of the genus Polar Birrrrrr...!Guess it's true what they say there's only two types of people the Irish and those who wish they were...even birrrrs...!

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 03:24 PM EDT

  The 'Unhappy blog commenter' made a written complaint to the online Editor..however Like Murdoch standing by Rebekah the IT ignored the 'elephant in the room'...As Oscar might say to 'threaten' one reader might be considered unfortunate but to 'threaten' two well that might be considered.....?

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 02:48 PM EDT

  The Diaspora should know that the commenter known as 'Towngate' is a Irish Times hack...he has previously made 'threats' such as that at 12.06 07.07.11 below to an IT blogger with whom he took issue...disclosing his IP address stating 'I know where you live'...This commenter has no qualms about posting disparaging/insulting comments about the allegiance of the Diaspora to it's historical and cultural heritage whilst simutlaneously adding insult to injury by paying homage to the Empire and it's Head of State...Maybe the Diaspora should treat those that hold it in such obvious contempt in kind...?

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 01:57 PM EDT

  Noreen:Thanks for that...in that case I reassert my position that Citizenship is the determining factor and if that brings the 'family' together all well and good...in all other respects we are ad idem...i.e. in agreement...the Diaspora have supported Ireland and should now be acknowledged for having done so...my previous comments on the basis that those not born in Ireland and therefore not citizens could contribute 'in kind' for the right to vote was wrong and I recuse myself form that position...Where are all the other contributors...?

• NoreenBowden | Jul 08, 2011, 01:42 PM EDT

  TheMurphia, You don't need to be born in Ireland to be a citizen - people with Irish-born citizen parents are automatically citizens, no matter where they are born, and people with Irish-born citizen grandparents are eligible for citizenship, for example. When I said that voting is both a right and a responsibility I mean that we need to see voting a the civic action that it is. I don't see it as something that needs to be 'balanced' by the payment of tax, as it's already a task of considerable responsibility.

• NoreenBowden | Jul 08, 2011, 01:32 PM EDT

  Kinvara, Thanks for your thoughts, although I disagree with many of them! I think you yourself missed the nuance in my discussion of good will: The diaspora's good will translates into cold hard cash; that's why a diaspora tax would be a dumb move (I reserve the right to call an idea dumb when it is; it's best not to be too precious about such things.) There are reasons why we so eagerly engage the diaspora: we see the payoff in philanthropy, diaspora direct investment, tourism spending, business networking, you name it. I don't believe that a tax would raise any more cash than is already coming from the diaspora, and I suspect it would substantially decrease it. It would be naive to believe that such a tax would not decrease the amount of money coming in because such a tax would be unprecedented in the EU - it would certainly raise questions from our expats about why Ireland, which already relies more on its expats than most other developed nations, has to impost a tax on them. And to think that we would have to - uniquely - tax our expats before introducing the right that every other EU nation gives its citizens is a bit of an insult to all those who are already coughing up the cash- a phenomenon which, I have to say, many people in Ireland are blithely unaware of. I am not opposed to a tax on all Irish citizens no matter where they live on principle; on principle I feel pretty neutral about it. It's just wildly impractical and would be costly. But I am totally and utterly opposed to requiring the payment of a tax in return for a vote. That is a barrier to democracy. As for voting, I believe it's not just a right, but a responsiblity in itself. I'm all in favour of citizens living up to their responsibilities, but we should acknowledge that voting is a central responsibility. As for there being a constitutional barrier to emigrant voting, the Committee on the Constitution acknowledged in its seventh progress report that there was not (in 2002).

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 12:18 PM EDT

  the repetition of my blog name...perhaps it's an internet thing or maybe I've been in Blighty too long where such things are considered rude...I'll give you the benefit of doubt on the BOP...anyway never mind...let's focus on the issues...

• kinvara7 | Jul 08, 2011, 12:09 PM EDT

  @themurphia: Your welcome, but to be honest I don't see where you got the aggressive tone from. I think I have been very courteous. @Noreen: This has been a very decent debate by IC standards, so please don't go labeling ideas as 'dumb' just because you don’t like them; especially since you seem to have overlooked the nuance of those ideas. Could you explain ‘goodwill’ to me Noreen? Could resident citizens explain to Revenue that they will pay with goodwill; will the State tell its teachers and doctors that the ‘goodwill’ is in the post. Voting isn’t based on the ability to pay, per se, but those who can must. Now could you please explain to me why it should be different for non-resident citizens? Wouldn’t it be best if non-resident citizens accepted a responsibility (albeit nominal) in return for the right to vote? If such a reasonable request angered people, then is it not fair to ask: to what extent do such people have goodwill towards the Irish Republic. The problem that many Republics face is not that citizens talk too much about rights; but rather we are unable to talk about anything else. I am an Irish citizen and I freely accept that I have responsibilities to the Republic (Article 9.3). What makes a good Republic is not the exercise of rights, but rather the exercise of responsibilities.

• Towngate | Jul 08, 2011, 11:54 AM EDT

  Overheard in the Corridors of the "House of Comments": - - - "Is there nobody can stop those two feckers from squabbling? - do they think I'm made of pencils?! ~ ~ ~ Lookit; I'd willingly give them two pencils each! - if they'd promise to jab them in their eyes!"

• kinvara7 | Jul 08, 2011, 11:30 AM EDT

  Noreen: Welcome to the debate. I think when I use the word ‘tax’ people ignore how I qualify it. (1) Only those non-resident citizens who can afford to contribute should. (2) It is a small nominal tax; I don’t want to get tied down to any figure but in my opinion it should be slightly more than the cost of providing postal voting to non-resident citizens. (3) I believe any sum collected, which is surplus to the cost of providing for postal voting, should only be used in support of areas such as the arts or sport or research which all Irish citizens can share a part in. I know of the US practice regarding tax, I have intentionally not mentioned this because that is very different to what I am proposing. I am just staying true to the principle that in a Republic, citizens not only have rights but responsibilities as well. If people genuinely can’t pay, then that should not preclude them from voting. As I have already said: my posts are not legislation, I have not set out every single exception. As you know Noreen, Irish people living abroad currently have no voting rights. And I have already discussed this in relation to ECHR case law. To be eligible to vote in Ireland you must be ordinarily resident at the address at which you wish to be registered. Voters are entered onto the Register of Electors according to the address they provide on their application to become an elector. This address must be an address within the Republic of Ireland and must also be where they normally reside. During the process of bringing in the Electoral Act, 1992, the question of whether it would be constitutional to extend voting rights to non-resident citizens was raised. The Attorney General advised that such a move would be unconstitutional on the ground that the entire tenor of Article 16 (in particular Article 16.2) presupposed that only persons who were resident in the State were eligible for the franchise.

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 10:42 AM EDT

  Noreen:I understood in order to be a Citizen you had to be born in the Republic of Ireland...is this not correct? It doesn't change my position I still believe Citizenship is the determining factor...We'll agree to disagree kinvara I'm not going up any more cul de sacs on that one...Noreen Can you clarify what you mean by 'voting is both a right and a responsibility' I understand it to mean a responsibility to vote not to 'contribute' to the state at least not terms of revenue...

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 10:28 AM EDT

  Well ms Bowden look at what you have started...! However I think it has been a useful exercise in identifying the issues that need to be considered...I am glad that someone sees the nonsense of expecting people to pay some sort of voting levy...I don't know why you are adopting a hostile tone Kinvara and it seems you are determined to misrepresent what I am saying...you are the one that is shifting position from No representation without taxation...I disagree with you that's all it's not personal so there is no need to adopt an aggressive tone...thanks for the translation I look forward to meeting the polar bear...!

• kinvara7 | Jul 08, 2011, 10:15 AM EDT

  You are not under oath themurphia, but it is up to you to make out your points. What are you differentiating, citizens and successful non-citizens? So non-resident Irish citizens get to vote, in return their 'successful' neighbours, who have less of a connection with Ireland make the contribution for them? I’m sorry now but that is not a solution. As regards other countries that provide ‘a free system of voting’, I think you will find that somebody pays themurphia. I don’t think your argument about how people who ‘move to Ireland and obtain legal and constitutional rights without contributing anything’, is very strong for a variety of reasons. Some examples are: (1) they live in Ireland, thus they are affected by changes in the law etc. Therefore of course they should have voting rights. (2) Even taking what you say at its highest, what is your point; that because some don’t contribute, neither should you? That is very weak. Resident citizens, who can contribute, must themurphia; why should non-resident citizens be any different? The reason this debate is going round in circles is because you don’t expand on your points. As regards the polar bears, yes it’s very good news for the hotels in Leitrim. No doubt the bears are on their way to visit the home of their ancestors! Since you asked -the Irish for polar bear is ‘béar bán’.

• NoreenBowden | Jul 08, 2011, 10:14 AM EDT

  I wrote the original piece that Niall wrote about here - I've been following the conversation with interest and I'd just like to jump in - Obviously, I support voting rights for Irish citizens abroad - I think voting is both a right and a responsibility. I don't really understand the notion that people should be made to pay a tax in order to vote, as that's simply not the way any democracy works. Voting is based on citizenship, and even if you're penniless, you should be allowed your say. The constitution says that all citizens have the entitlement and birthright to be part of the Irish Nation - because of this, I don't see how we could limit voting rights to people born in Ireland. The Constitution clearly delineates between citizens and those in the diaspora who have an affinity for Ireland, but it doesn't distinguish between citizens born in Ireland and those not born here - they have the same entitlement to be part of the Irish Nation. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on whether it would be right or wrong for Ireland to tax its expats (the US is the only nation that currently taxes all expats on foreign-earned income, so it's extraordinarily rare), but it's a totally separate issue to the vote. I'm not aware of any democracy that requires the payment of tax in order to vote, but there is certainly no developed nation in the world that has introduced an expat tax in order to facilitate an expat vote. From a pragmatic point of view, this would be a pretty dumb idea, as whatever we'd make up in tax we'd no doubt lose in goodwill lost.

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 08:49 AM EDT

  I am not under oath here...I am differentiating between those born in Ireland i.e CITIZENS and successful Non Citizens albeit with a close family/cultural ties to Ireland in which they want to invest personally and economically not merely for commercial reasons...It is my OPINION that the rights of CITIZENS as enshrined in the Constitutions SHOULD be indivisble...Many people move to Ireland and obtain legal and constitutional rights without contributing anything to revenue or otherwise have a responsibility to give back merely taking from the State...They don't have to become Citizens in order to obtain the right to vote...So I understand your arguments I just don't agree with you...It is not because I don't want to contribute I am talking strictly about the principle...This argument is not so alien many other countries manage to set up a free system of voting for citizens living abroad it is not rocket science...I'm sure they could provide the costings to the relevant Oireachtas Committee so that an informed decision can be made...However I am beginning to feel this discussion is like being on a roundabout without an exit sign...That's it folks...

• kinvara7 | Jul 08, 2011, 08:22 AM EDT

  ‘I'm gonna take a rain check and get back to you.’ Those were your words themurphia, and I am still waiting. To begin with let’s keep our debate focused on voting rights for non-resident citizens who were born in Ireland (what I have mentioned at the end of my post to Walter is a separate idea). I don’t agree with your proposal themurphia. You are suggesting that non resident citizens should have voting rights at the expense of those at home, in return for ‘maybe’ getting more investment from businesses abroad. Where is the connection between the individual citizen and the Republic they apparently care about? Don’t foreign investors already enjoy a low corporate tax rate; entry of goods and services into the EU etc. Don’t Irish companies invest in America; providing 82,000 jobs in the good aul U.S. of A. If an Irish citizen is in a position to invest in Ireland -brilliant, however chances are they wouldn’t invest unless other things such as the low corporate tax rate were in place. You talk about principles and how money shouldn’t be the deciding factor –I agree with that. So why then do you talk about investment etc.? Why do you want to vote in the elections of a Republic that you personally don’t want to contribute to? Forget about what big business might or might not do, what do you think you should contribute?

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 08:14 AM EDT

  How bizare you use 'ad idem' as I was typing my comment and before yours was posted...? Spooky...Now here's a thing..it has been discovered allegedly that the Polar Bears ancestors were Irish...would they qualify for a vote would they want to?...ok just codding...But it is an apt metaphor for the Irish economy after the hot Celtic Tiger years...'Tigris Tigris Celticus Hibernicus' as he liked to be know on formal occasions we now have the Celtic economic winter and an appropriate zoologiacl metaphor 'Ursus Ursus Celticus Hibernicus'...as no it doubt said on his emigration visa...!Translation As Gaeilge anyone..?

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 07:49 AM EDT

  No kinvara...you decided that I was going to set out a scheme and tell you how it was going to be implemented...I don't agree that there should be a financial consideration to use a legal term...imposed on CITIZENS...to exercise their albeit qualified right to vote...my argument is that the DIVIDENDS would be benefits in kind a commitment from entrepreneurs and those who have been successful abroad investing in the oul sod in some way...That is my poosition on CITIZENS who I think should have a vote as of rright regardless of status as residents...What you are suggesting could be a way of allowing non-CITIZENS ie. those who are born out of Ireland but want to preserve their cultural and family ties in some way...that could be a way of raising revenue...I am opposed to the no representation without taxation for the reasons previously stated...many people move to Ireland specfically to avoid tax some only have to cross the road in the border counties...Failing that I suggest you collect the confirmation money....are we ad idem...? And what is more we have made the ton.... ***************************100 club************************

• kinvara7 | Jul 08, 2011, 07:38 AM EDT

  Walter: We are not ad idem, as they say, but I see where you are coming from. My view is that if I moved abroad I would like the opportunity to vote in Irish elections (so I understand the views of some posters who have genuine views on this) however I would not agree with that right being provided solely at the expense of those at home. Furthermore, because I care enough to vote, I would also care enough to contribute (albeit a small amount). I don’t want to write down a figure, but I think it should be a bit more than just the cost of providing the right etc. I imagine that if I was a non-resident citizen, and I paid this amount, I would like it to go towards things that improve and enhance the Republic; things that can be enjoyed by all Irish citizens whether resident in Ireland or not; funding the arts, sport etc. Where we probably disagree the most is where I suggest that certain rights could be extended beyond those who have been born in Ireland (subject to conditions).

• kinvara7 | Jul 08, 2011, 07:17 AM EDT

  No themurphia, I'm just trying to move the debate along. Now if I recall you were going to expand on your proposal to extend voting rights in exchange for ‘a commitment from the Diaspora to support Ireland’. Specifically, you were going to set out how such a scheme could be implemented and checked. I too am interested in the principle: the principle that in a Republic, citizens not only have rights but responsibilities as well. Clearly, given your proposal, you agree. What we should now discuss is what sort of responsibilities should non-resident citizens have in return for voting rights? In my opinion it should be a small nominal tax (for those who can pay). Why? Because I believe it is fair; because it could be implemented quickly and effectively; it could also be monitored and checked easily. Furthermore, it would contribute to the well being of the Republic (which should be an important consideration for all citizens). I acknowledge your genuine views and I will listen to all reasonable proposals. Kind regards.

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 05:47 AM EDT

  kinvara: you are intrepid...!You are still working from the premise of the status quo i.e. as Article 16.2 unamended...I'm sorry I haven't got time to go into this in detail but the costs cannot be the reason for not finding a way around this...I believe the reasons are political not financial...It's the principle I'm interested in... Also there must be some contingency funds in the Overseas budget funds that could be creatively accounted for...Do I detect a slight shift in your position re taxation as the determining criterion to one of residence...? The ballot box.ie campaign is indicative of the interest in this topic it was extrordinary how quickly the subject gathered momentum in the couple of weeks before the election...Your research is interesting and valuable to the issues...a bientot!Keep posting...!

• kinvara7 | Jul 08, 2011, 05:18 AM EDT

  A small nominal tax; a fee for voting; ‘a commitment to support’ does it matter that much what we call it for the moment; can we all agree that there needs to be a tangible contribution? I know that some citizens here in Ireland would have reservations about extending voting rights to non-resident citizens, but their reasonable concerns could be allayed. To begin with the right would only extend to those who had been born in Ireland (about 1 million people). How many of them would choose to vote? Perhaps in time it would be a sizeable proportion but the reality is that their voting patterns would not be that different to those at home. According to the case law of the ECHR, the exclusion of non-resident citizens from the right to vote can be justified on a variety of grounds. Examples of which are: the assumption that a non-resident citizen is less directly or continuously concerned with, and has less knowledge of, a country’s day-to-day problems; the correlation between one’s right to vote in parliamentary elections and being directly affected by the acts of the political bodies so elected. However, those who are willing to apply (and provide a form of contribution) clearly have a continuing interest in the affairs and wellbeing of the Republic. If they have to contribute (albeit a nominal amount and according to their ability) just like resident citizens, then there is a correlation between one’s right to vote in parliamentary elections and being directly affected by the acts of the political bodies so elected. The right to vote balanced against the responsibility to contribute. It is simple, it is fair and it is rational.

• themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 04:47 AM EDT

  casualMBA:No a mhic...only the sword of justice...more o'merta than o'malley...shhhh...:-)

• casualMBA | Jul 07, 2011, 09:32 PM EDT

  Americans "more Irish than the Irish?" Didn't Mel Gibson holler that in some bloody scene?

• casualMBA | Jul 07, 2011, 09:23 PM EDT

  Are we close to triple digit glory yet?

• casualMBA | Jul 07, 2011, 09:22 PM EDT

  Niall has already moved on to the world of Murdoch, and appropriately enough

• Towngate | Jul 07, 2011, 07:03 PM EDT

  Niall, a Chara: As we approach the magic number of 100 Comments when you give us all a new pencil and an eraser and a green lollipop to suck and pat us on the head for being good boys, we must all surely realise this notion of involving the so-called Irish Diaspora as a unified body in Irish Home Affairs is a "no-hope non-starting dead duck in the water without a cats snowballs chance in hell!" - - - It will never happen; fundamentally because nobody really wants it to; and it is fraught with insurmountable complexities and would be vehemently repulsed in any event by the Irish Government and People! - - - So long as the Authorities and population at large benefit from the people fleeing abroad, nothing will change in the forseeable future. NO politician or Priest is ever going to stand up and declare we should "...let the likes of them who deserted us in our darkest hour to fend for ourselves all alone here and were den and now are demselves living de life av Riley in heeethen places the like New Guinea, Peruvia, Iningland or Americana or where-ever - to now start spouting out of them an' go tellin' us what to do here! Well,I'm tellin' ya:- they can just stay where they are - and bad cess to them!" / / / Well-intentioned and passionate Commenters here who still believe it can happen should now join the Queue to perform flagellation upon the deceased equine. The line forms on the right ---> Slainte!

• antoman | Jul 07, 2011, 05:54 PM EDT

  Closes the door behind Walter Ellis. Elvis has left the building.

• eiriamach | Jul 07, 2011, 04:37 PM EDT

  What is all this squabbling about? I thought you'd all get on with the discussion and come up with a workable plan or strategy to enfranchise the diaspora. Instead, you're at it again! Ho hum.... Back on track then: who knows a member of the Dail who might be willing to help draft and then sponsor the needed legislation? You won't succeed if you call for payment of a poll tax, but you might succeed in charging ex-pat voters a fee for mailing a voter's packet, based on each citizen's area of most recent residence in Ireland: it would include a mail-in ballot and would list the candidates standing for election, their email and web site addresses, and biographical data. It would give synopses of every important issue before the government and how each candidate would vote on it. A government info office should compile and mail this packet a least a couple of weeks before the election date. Addresses of ex-pats or migrant workers abroad-- whatever you choose to call them-- should be publicly available through this info office, so it would then be possible to organize and set up, perhaps, a "convention" on an Internet site so that they could nominate their own candidates once they have a way to vote in Irish elections. Nil neart go cur le cheile! Maybe Niall O' Dowd knows someone in Irish government who would help move the process forward. If migrant worker citizens already have the constitutional right to vote, they need to get it working for themselves!

• WalterEllis | Jul 07, 2011, 04:27 PM EDT

  Wounded George: I answered that point back on June 18, when I wrote: "As to your point about 'no one more one Irish than me,' this was, of course, not meant to be taken literally. What I meant was the assumption by many Irish Americans that they are in some sense the true custodians of an Irish culture that the 'mere' Irish of Ireland have betrayed." But what about you, George Knee? I'm calling you a coward to your face ... or at least I would if I knew which of your two faces I was talking to. And on that note, I hereby leave this discussion.

• GeorgeDillon | Jul 07, 2011, 03:43 PM EDT

  Walterellis: It's liars like you who are unwelcome in any discussion. You don't like it when I condemn you for your lies, do you? There's a solution: stop spreading absurd lies, such as your claim that Irish Americans wake up every morning and congratulate themselves for being more Irish than the Irish themselves. That's got to be the dumbest lie I've ever seen. Do the right thing now and retract it and we can start afresh.

• WalterEllis | Jul 07, 2011, 03:19 PM EDT

  Kinvara: I'm not sure we're a hundred percent aligned on this, but I can see where you're coming from. If you and I were in government (which, under the present rules, as well as for all sorts of other reasons, would be impossible), I'm sure we could reach agreement. Towngate: I don't understand your comment. Really I don't. And "George:" you're a coward. But we all know that already. You're also endlessly insulting to the native Irish ("the Irish who stay on in Ireland tend to be the dumbest runts of the litter;" "the Irish are morons"), which may, or may not, make you racist but certainly makes you an unwelcome intruder into this discussion.

• casualMBA | Jul 07, 2011, 03:00 PM EDT

  c- themurphia, or is it o’malley now, and crossing / \ swords (no ref. to the good bishop) you’d be?...truly, we sons of Patrick, tending our sheep and goats in far-flung lands, have stumbled upon ISPs…and, funny thing, there seems to be more we can do with them than Donkey Gong et al…the military, my swashbuckling colleen, has a phrase it is fond of for Employers “…responsible for all (my unit) does, or fails to do…” such a canopy might account for divided attitudes threatening both the Irish, and their emigrants, would it not?

• GeorgeDillon | Jul 07, 2011, 02:11 PM EDT

  "Where would this all end? Things are complicated already." Poor Walter. He's all confused. The USA does it, Italy does it, Equador does it, even supposedly war-torn Colombia does it. Maybe a hundred other nations do it. Do what? They provide some kind of opportunity for their citizens to vote while overseas. But poor stupid Ireland doesn't do it. If you're Irish and happen to be on vacation or on a business trip or have a medical appointment with a foreign specialist on polling day, forget about voting. You see, the Irish who stay on in Ireland tend to be the dumbest runts of the litter, they can't organize something that scores of First, Second and Third World countries manage without a hitch. I guess he thinks beloved UK is wrong too. Walter, good to see you're one with the folks in BanglaDesh, and Equatorial Guinea, and Togoland.

• kinvara7 | Jul 07, 2011, 12:23 PM EDT

  @Walter: In relation to non-resident citizens voting for 'Diaspora' constituencies, I would like you to acknowledge that I only proposed a small set number of seats; for example one for the Irish community in North America. Similar procedures are provided by other countries. As for your comments regarding people who have left and have applied for US citizenship, started families etc., I agree with you in general, but if such people paid a small nominal tax (thereby showing a level of genuine commitment to Irish affairs and the welfare of the Irish Republic) then I would be infavour of extending voting rights to them. There would then be tangible benefits for all concerned.

• Towngate | Jul 07, 2011, 12:06 PM EDT

  Hey Walter! Quick! Got your pen handy? Still do Obits? Got a job for you! ~ ~ ~ We just need to make sure she is really gone down 'swimmin widda fishes' and has not just popped down the store for another pack of Kotex!

• WalterEllis | Jul 07, 2011, 11:48 AM EDT

  I don't understand what it is the Diaspora wans. If all they're after is the vote while they're away (and I'm only talking here about those Irish who have taken work abroad but intend returning home), then I see nothing outrageous in their demand. But it goes further than this, doesn't it? It's as if they're saying, "I've gone, and I may never come back. Indeed, I may well take out citizenship of the U.S., or Australia, or wherever it is I end up. And I might marry abroad and raise a family. BUT ... I'm still Irish and I demand to be able to influence the policies and make-up of the next Irish Government." There's even, apparently, some desire for Diaspora constituencies (the TD for Long Island, the Senator for Queensland), which would bring to bear the concerns of non-resident Irish citizens and, I would guess, others who hold Irish passports, even if they never intend to live in Ireland. Where would this all end? Things are complicated already. I would say to the emigré Irish: make new lives for yourselves; aim to vote in the countries to which you have moved. But if you still wish to return home, then do so at your leisure, at which point you will have the same voting rights as everybody else. Is that so weird?

• butlerreport | Jul 07, 2011, 11:37 AM EDT

  Only the dregs stay behind.

• themurphia | Jul 07, 2011, 10:24 AM EDT

  kinvara:I'm not 'bored' with this subject per se it is very important to me...I'm just a little bored with the company...however now the less desirable elephants have left the room we can, as you say return to this conversation...I've just got a few pressing matters to attend to this afternoon...So I'm gonna take a rain check and get back to you...but please don't tell me what I can and can't do...!Perhaps some of the other commenters would like to contribute in the meantime!:-)

• kinvara7 | Jul 07, 2011, 09:12 AM EDT

  None taken themurphia; but if you want to take part in an adult conversation, you can't just go round in circles; you have to provide answers every now and then. You made a loose statement, and I politely asked you to expand on it. It seems somewhat convenient for you now to say that you are bored of the topic. However, reasonable people will come to their own conclusions as to why you won't answer.

• themurphia | Jul 07, 2011, 08:53 AM EDT

  No disrespect to you kinvara but the answer is NO...I have said as much as I want to say on this topic and I'm bored...:-)

• kinvara7 | Jul 07, 2011, 08:13 AM EDT

  @themurphia: Will you kindly return to the actual debate, and please answer the simple question I posted.

• themurphia | Jul 07, 2011, 07:37 AM EDT

  The problem with some men is that when you say STOP they just carry on regardless...and that is the kind of mindset that results in them finding themselves in very serious doo doo indeed...Knw what I'm saying like...?

• themurphia | Jul 07, 2011, 07:10 AM EDT

  My my george you have the ahem 'gentlemen' of the press rattled...Following on from my previous post of course if the 'perps' continued to berate or harass intimidate you directly or indirectly after you had expressly told them to STOP that would aggravate the measure of damages considerably so you should make sure your lawyer checks if the trolls have been posting in different identites even if only to make out they are not universally reviled...What would be unconcionable would be to discover that they had violated your human rights and passed your details to A.N Other Troll or stalked you in some other way so get your lawyer to check that too...and don't worry about them saying you have no sense of humour that is always considered to be the lamest defence...All the best now I won't say slainte...won't say why just in case someone has a bit of a problem with the oul' gargle...yeh know whah I mean buh...?

• kinvara7 | Jul 07, 2011, 06:19 AM EDT

  You propose voting rights in exchange for ‘a committment from the Diaspora to support Ireland’ [sic]. How do you propose implementing and checking that scheme?

• WalterEllis | Jul 07, 2011, 06:19 AM EDT

  Those who follow the villainous ramblings of the boggart George Dillon will know of his frequent references to Native Americans, for whom the Battle (or massacre) of Wounded Knee is, of course, a painful memory. "Woundedknee," I need hardly add, is also the nom de slur of an intermittent poster on this site. The other day, after he warned me "to put up or shut up," I challenged Knee to give us his real name. I use my real name, I told him. Those who are interested know who I am, where I come from and where I live. So who was he and what was his story? Unsurprisingly, Knee failed to respond, preferring to slink back to his tent, or teepee. Instead, after a rare period of grace, during which time I dared to hope that I was off his radar, "George" returned to the fray to denounce me once more as a liar. My question this time is rather different. Would it be possible for George and Woundedknee to appear together in the same room? Or are they, in fact, as others have suggested, one and the same? Is Wounded Dillon really George Knee? Some might say that I am taking something of a risk by daring "George" to declare his true identity. Boggarts (close relatives of the hobgoblin) are malevolent and scheming creatures who treasure their anonymity. But I don't believe in boggarts any more than I believe in Woundedknee. So what the heck?

• Towngate | Jul 07, 2011, 06:16 AM EDT

  Well,be the hokey, and Glory Be! ~ Its a red-letter day for IrishCentral and the digitally disfunctional desperate disporate Diasporate. Why? I hear you ask? Why? Why? ~ The bold antoman @06.28 has responded pleasantly to a bit of playful cage-rattling and leg-pulling in the manner it was intended and - wonders will never cease! - on the very same 'thread' even the mighty George Dillon @04.00 - hitherto known and detested throughout the blogosphere, and beyond for his vicious vitriol...has posted a civil Comment without any of his usual ... lets be kind :...'sort of anti-Irish stuff'. To them both,I say: Anty: thanks for the invite to live among the Sheeple Beag na h-Eireann, but as I already do,there was no need for the pony express to deliver all those forren fraze bukes George sent me from Americania so I can grasp the lingo of the 'native Irish savages'. And George,of course I am not suggesting you should let lies and threats go unchallenged - kicking over little tin gods - especially Diddle-i-Oirish ones, is part of the fun of this great site. It's just that "there is more than one way to skin a rabbit! - if you get my drift. Slainte to each and all!

• themurphia | Jul 07, 2011, 06:07 AM EDT

  'buying' votes is not a policy I would advocate...

• themurphia | Jul 07, 2011, 06:04 AM EDT

  I have read and responded to your proposals...they are discriminatory and contrary to EU/HR law...if they were to be adopted they could result in mutilple discrimination claims...and think of the cost of that to the Exchequer...try and pay attention...I have also stated my opinions and do not intend to repeat them... George: when selecting a lawyer to pursue your claim for damages make sure they check the ISP provider and address in case the trolls are posting from work...They are of course not only damaging your reputation but that of their Employer and if say it was the National paper of record of any given country that would be very damaging indeed...not mentioning any name buh!...Give them enough rope...Also employers are likely to have more of the folding stuff... Also best to make sure you find a lawyer who is qualified to practice in both criminal and civil law...you're welcome don't mention it...!

• kinvara7 | Jul 07, 2011, 05:07 AM EDT

  The same level of debate as always; the usual race to the bottom. George please point out where I suggested a property tax? I will ignore your other comments for another forum (I’m pretty sure you will mention them again). @themurphia: you are against my idea for a nominal tax in exchange for voting rights –what you propose is voting rights in exchange for ‘a committment from the Diaspora to support Ireland’ [sic]. How do you propose implementing and checking that scheme? Please note in my earlier post where I said the nominal tax ‘should be a small amount and provision could be made for those who genuinely couldn’t pay.’ Note the last part of that sentence. My posts are not legislation; I have not set out every single exception. However it should be clear from what I have posted, that only those who can pay should pay in return for voting rights.

• themurphia | Jul 07, 2011, 04:08 AM EDT

  George:You need a good lawyer...sue and be damned...good libel damaged in the States!

• themurphia | Jul 07, 2011, 04:07 AM EDT

  casualMBA: *Correction* That should have been every Town and Village has it's idiot/s...Some of whom are tick (sic) enough to post derogatory comments from their work ISP in their employers time and then wriggle and squirm when they realise what a klutz they've been and how their Employers could be held accountable for their idiot employee...not mentioning any names buh...;")

• GeorgeDillon | Jul 07, 2011, 04:00 AM EDT

  I see some merit in Towngate's injunction that posters "stick only to the story" and avoid personal references. I myself have been a victim in this regard--there are five or six posters who have used the slur of "racist" against me, apparently because I speak for that 70% of Irish people who regularly express opposition to their ruling class's policy of Mass Settlement of Ireland by foreigners. Since I abhor racism I will naturally defend myself against those such as posters kinvara, searlit, trealach and a few others who throw this vile word in my direction. But there are also cases of willful lies on the part of posters. For example, poster Ellis in an Irish newspaper said that Irish-Americans wake up each morning and congratulate themselves on being more Irish than the Irish. I asked Ellis to substantiate that assertion. He couldn't and didn't. I therefore drew the logical inference that he is a liar, one I maintain. To take another example, poster Momma Ginnty claimed that Dingle in Kerry is an Irish speaking town. Since I know Dingle, and I know Irish, I am in a position to say that her claim is an utter falsehood. She is, in short, a liar. Does Towngate want us to validate lies? I won't.

• themurphia | Jul 07, 2011, 04:00 AM EDT

  casualMBA:Those bloody FitzGeralds...!As for the trollywallies...as you know every village has it's idiot/s...even the virtual global one it seems...!

• GeorgeDillon | Jul 07, 2011, 02:50 AM EDT

  Posters like Kinvara oppose votes for Irish citizens abroad because they say that they don't want decisions on how Ireland is governed to be made by people living in Brussels, Frankfurt, Washington. Think about it...

• casualMBA | Jul 06, 2011, 10:15 PM EDT

  ;) Not always so/

• antoman | Jul 06, 2011, 08:59 PM EDT

  CausualMBA has the luxury of thought(middle class) and lots of potatoes in a box under the stairs.

• casualMBA | Jul 06, 2011, 08:39 PM EDT

  OOps- perhaps a bit of resentment is showing at the windfalls to be made in steeply discounted Irish-held "toxic" debts - not to mention above market interest into the billions - as the government "rights" the ship of a free Ireland...Not what the country can do for we, the Fitzs,... what the country can do for itself in retaining its cultural core, and the integrity of its people.

• casualMBA | Jul 06, 2011, 08:26 PM EDT

  Odd, that Cromwell never did render Ireland as a Protestant country...Do you think the Desmond FitzGeralds, before his arrival, had anything to do with Catholicism in Ireland, and, before they "gave away" (courtesy of the English crown) over four billion dollars (I am Diaspora) in real estate - not to mention the Geraldines - to an independent, free and future Irish government?

• antoman | Jul 06, 2011, 06:28 PM EDT

  There ya go with that english wit.Not unlike my own except like General Rhubarb you have walked amoungst the natives and trusted they were intimated by the light glinting from metal weapons.No Towntroll..there is not for it but we are going to have to send for you and make you live here amoung the natives.

• Towngate | Jul 06, 2011, 05:13 PM EDT

  Y'know,Anty,I've 'had you wrong' all along! You may be right about this! Only trouble is, I can't remember who Oliver Cromwell is. Did he ever have anything to do with Ireland, at all? ~ I know there are miles of beautiful stone walls all over Ireland capped with lovely round stones that look like soldiers helmets ~ called 'cromwell walls' ~ did he build them? What else did he do in his spare time while he was there? ~ Let me know if you have a minute! I'm depending on yeh,now! Slainte!

• antoman | Jul 06, 2011, 04:20 PM EDT

  @Towntroll,Sounds like something Oliver Cromwell said.

• Towngate | Jul 06, 2011, 03:59 PM EDT

  Like many others; I really enjoy the wide range of opinions posted here but get a bit jaded by the those who take the trouble only to point out what fools and idiots other Commenters are, and rarely respond to the posted Article! To them I would say: We can all make up our own minds about other Commenters - so stick only to the story and let us make up our own minds about what kind of fool and idiot YOU are!

• themurphia | Jul 06, 2011, 03:58 PM EDT

  Sorry delete comment directed to walter...sorry!

• themurphia | Jul 06, 2011, 03:55 PM EDT

  Yes walter I think I'd already made those points...!

• casualMBA | Jul 06, 2011, 03:32 PM EDT

  Enfranchisement particulars – the nuts and bolts of designated electorate, designated offices to have a voice in, to hold and exercise, designated expenses and revenues derived from the act of voting, designated seats in the Oireachtas – are topics which would seem endless at the moment. Suffice - should it not? – it to repeat themurphia’s cited axiom “…where there is a will…”…the difficulty comes in when the antomans of the world (pardon me, Ireland) sound off with (or launch U-boats, G.D.,) in effect, “…you must live here, to experience the costs or benefits (of your vote)…” Would Ireland have its Diaspora be Rhett Butler with “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn!” Many have felt the stiff breeze of separation from Ireland, and the case of whether or not the Irish Diaspora Vote should exist or not is, Quite Frankly, a moot point.

• antoman | Jul 06, 2011, 03:19 PM EDT

  @georgyboy-You are an immigrant in your own subconcious which determines for you whether you should troll using your georgyboy account or your woudedknee account.In essence you are an immigrant of your own mind and subject to its whims.

• GeorgeDillon | Jul 06, 2011, 03:06 PM EDT

  There appears to be no limit to the nonsense posted by kinvara. Now he is trying to bring back a property or taxpayer qualification for voting, something right out of Victorian England. In fact if my memory is accurate the state's coupling of voting rights with wealth was one of the catalysts of conflict in the Six Counties. Will you deny the vote to Irish women also, kinvara? Let's get fully into this 19th century thing. But it's worse, because kinvara's example is hogwash: "retired people (they have paid taxes while they were working) unemployed (ditto) and so on; so that argument isn’t very strong." Since you're so define nationality as tax-paying (you obviously don't think Ireland is a nation, it's just an IRS-type region) did it never occur to you that Irish people who emigrate will have paid taxes before they left? In fact I suspect one of the reasons they leave is because they're sick of paying taxes for all the wacky and wasteful schemes of Dublin governments. Want an example? The Irish government provides free rented housing for African immigrants. So, they go borrow money from the IMF in order to put African settlers in homes. Free. The Africans are smart, the Irish are morons.

• antoman | Jul 06, 2011, 02:50 PM EDT

  We can conclude from the dialogue that has transpired here that 1. Walter Ellis should have run for the Presidency of Ireland.2. The diaspora should be denied the vote and only those at home that know what road needs fixing should have the vote.

• themurphia | Jul 06, 2011, 02:37 PM EDT

  @me 02.05 *typo alert*...omit first refernce to women after carers...note to self...proof readbefore submitting comment...!

• themurphia | Jul 06, 2011, 02:05 PM EDT

  Your proposal that only those who are prepared/able to pay should be enfranchised is discriminatory...not ony to non residents but to residents such as the disabled and carers women who are usually women...The simple solution would be to say that all Citizens resident or non resident should have the right to vote...I have said this would be in return for a committment from the Diaspora to support Ireland tho' I do not necessarily think it should be incumbent on that...the tangible and intangible benefits would immeasurably outweigh any administrative costs...God that is such a tight thing to say so...Are Immigrants charged for the cost of registering to vote btw...Previous governments had no qualms about selling Citizenship there were no questions asked or issues raised about why such people would want an Irish passport or objections raised about their never having contributed to the public purse via the taxation system...brown envelope politics...Where there's a will there's a way...In answer to your question why I would want to have a say...because I am an Irish Citizen...oh and the contributions of previous generations who propped the up Irish State in return for NOTHING absolutely nothing...

• kinvara7 | Jul 06, 2011, 01:19 PM EDT

  @themurphia: I said 'nominal tax' and please try to understand that rights carry responsibilities. Why do you even want to vote in the elections of the Irish Republic if you are not willing to make a tangible contribution to the wellbeing of the state? How do you propose to provide for overseas voting? Postal votes? Well that is going to cost the state some money; the state’s money comes from raising taxes. As I said it should be a small amount and provision could be made for those who genuinely couldn’t pay. As regards what you were saying about retired people (they have paid taxes while they were working) unemployed (ditto) and so on; so that argument isn’t very strong.

• themurphia | Jul 06, 2011, 01:17 PM EDT

  I can see no good reason why the No Representation without Taxation lobby should object to amendemnt of Article 16.2 to allow the disenfranchised Diaspora i.e. non resident Citizens a right to vote in the Presidential election...the President is not involved in day to day issues of Government...spending decisions etc...whether that is a good or a bad thing is a moot point for another day...As far as the full franchise is concerned that should be the aim...it would be healthier for Irish politics get rid of the dynastic carve up that has prevailed since the Civil war with its resulatnt stultification of progress...It's quite extraordinary that so few families have been at the centre of government since Independence...like all oligarchies it is ultimately self destructive...However my immediate concern is to get the vote the rest will follow...

• RedBranch | Jul 06, 2011, 12:21 PM EDT

  Niall please re consider your decision not to run, SF still haven't put forward a candidate.

• themurphia | Jul 06, 2011, 12:13 PM EDT

  Article 16.1 of the Constitution gives ALL Citizens of Ireland a RIGHT to vote...It is Article 16.2 that needs to be amended to return that RIGHT to non-residents... temporary or otherwise ...As for No taxation argument...if taken to it's logical conclusion then the vote should be removed from the retired unemployed welfare recipients immmigrants women who do not work...it's a ludicrous argument..I can think of no more tangible nexus that having been born on the Island...I did not choose to leave Ireland and I cannot choose to return...I did not sever my ties with the country of my birth and I will not have them severed artificially...The Government were prepared to give passports to Arabs for money well if that is the case they can uphold my Constitutional rights in exchange for my support to their FFailed State....

• kinvara7 | Jul 06, 2011, 11:50 AM EDT

  Irish people living abroad currently have no voting rights. We could create a system that allows those who leave to maintain a tangible connection and as a result certain voting rights? In time, why not allow the children of these people certain rights (if they choose to apply for them). These rights could be apportioned in proportion to one’s connection to Ireland, and or according to the level of interaction a member of the Diaspora has with the Irish Republic. There could be a base level, beyond which all who qualify would be entitled to vote in a Presidential election, regardless of where they reside. This base level would (and should) be granted according to the payment of a nominal tax (No taxation without representation works both ways). Naturally, it would be entirely voluntary, and up to each individual person to apply. As regards voting for seats in the Dáil; well what about reserving some seats specifically for Diaspora communities. So for example there could be a seat for a North American Constituency and one for South America; Australia; Europe etc.

• themurphia | Jul 06, 2011, 11:13 AM EDT

  me @10.13...Whoops...that should have been the Constitutional rights of Citizens does NOT extend to the whole of the Diaspora...etc...the right to vote should not be restricted to residents for all the reasons previously expressed...repetition will not make my argument any stronger...

• WalterEllis | Jul 06, 2011, 10:47 AM EDT

  Woundedknee: There has been a lot of talk in this forum about the rights of the Diaspora to have a say in the affairs of modern Ireland. There was much debate recently on the theme of Irish America taking part in the Irish presidential election. There has been discussion of Ireland as a "brand," in which Irish-Americans, say, or Irish-Australians, have the same effective rights as the Irish of Ireland. My point is that the destiny of Ireland is a matter for its people and its neighbours (in this case, Europe). Those Irish who left generations ago but still feel themselves in some way "entitled" to participate in Ireland's economic and political decisions should, in my view, get out more – most obviously in the countries to which they live. By the way, Woundedknee, you say I should "put up or shut up". I have "put up" in this Forum for more than a year now. I have even put up with you. More than that, I have given out my name and where I live and, where appropriate, given an outline of my career and starting points. Who are you, Woundedknee? What's your name? What life have you led that gives you the right to such an abusive tongue?

• antoman | Jul 06, 2011, 10:34 AM EDT

  Would I be correct in saying that Irish people who reside abroad think they are more Irish than the Irish who live in Ireland?That they are all fervent supporters of Sinn Fein,can sing an Irish ballad or two and get Barrys Tea in the post some times from home?After voting and being gathered in front of a large flatscreen in Arapoohohaa, Nebraska and watching the voting.I can also imagine them drinking Guinness and congratulating each other with words to the effect of "we did it for Ireland".A bit of common sense please.Only a resident of Ireland should have a vote in her affairs.People that live here and will feel the consequences,good or bad,on the ground.

• themurphia | Jul 06, 2011, 10:13 AM EDT

  The Constitutional right of Irish Citizens to vote does extend to the whole of the Diaspora only to those born in Ireland...and should be retained by those Citizens not just those living temporarily abroad...This is not attractive to the Political classes because it would 'upset the apple tart' as that intellectual giant and erstwhile FF'er so famously said...If the disenfranchised Diaspora are now to be expected to give the indigenous Economy a dig out then that at least should be the deal breaker...I don't know why that is so difficult to accept..it would also break the political deadlock of the two centre right parties and possibly deliver a proper Republican party to power...Instead of getting 'boomier' Ireland self destructed following the Celtic bubble so in Berie speak it is now 'bustier'...! Perhaps those who are now asking the likes of Niall to try and put Humpty back together again would like to say hwhat they hope to obtain from the Diaspora...and for what return..unlike other commenters I think there should be a quid pro quo...Over to you...

• WoundedKnee | Jul 06, 2011, 09:53 AM EDT

  What inane posts from Walter Ellis and others. "It's quite another to extend the franchise to the whole of the so-called Diaspora". This guy appears to think that someone has suggested that everyone of Irish ancestry should have a vote in Irish elections. Complete nonsense, Walter. Monumentally stupid. Where do you get these crazy ideas? Your record on substantiating your carzy claims is weak, but I defy you to cite ONE person who has suggested that people in Australia, South Africa, Argentina, South Dakota etc. who have an Irish person or two in their genealogy should ipso facto get to vote in Ireland. Put up or shut up, Walter.

• themurphia | Jul 06, 2011, 08:54 AM EDT

  Yes Niall..what IS wrong with you...? Why on earth would the shared experiences and memories of the Diaspora in any way be of relevance for the people who for what ever reason had cause to leave Ireland...Really it's just too bad we thought we had got rid of the nasty little brutes and you keep reminding us...No please be a good chap and lets have no more about those who never had to leave other than what you have to offer us to maintain our comfortable life style..and Please STOP bringing politics and even worse money into it...It's just vulgar Niall vulgar... Otherwise we might have to take our self inportant pompous selves elsewhere dear boy...We just want to read Ulysses and see how much further up our own Aras we can get...You see we of a particular persuasion like to refer to ourselves in the plural it's the inbreeding you see... Just send the dough Joe...and then please stay where you are...

• WalterEllis | Jul 06, 2011, 08:52 AM EDT

  Antoman is right. It's one thing to give the vote to actual Irishmen and women who happen, for a time, to be living and working abroad. I can see how that would be fair, though not without its problems. It's quite another to extend the franchise to the whole of the so-called Diaspora, most of whom never have lived, and never will live, in Ireland. Just because you're name is Timothy or Pat doesn't mean that you should be able to choose the TD for Meath.

• antoman | Jul 06, 2011, 08:46 AM EDT

  Perhaps I should clarify and point out that towntroll(bullock) was shipped over to bull goats.Before being shipped back to the UK.There was never any danger of him being consumed.

• antoman | Jul 06, 2011, 08:27 AM EDT

  @Towntroll-Why even bother?Why type all that when its less than useful to the casual observer of comments.You are a bullock that has been shipped to the UK during the famine and on arrival you are asked what was the grass like and how big the field you resided in was.Your reply is a bellow and can't be understood either here or there.You type out replies to articles when in truth and in particular if the article is relating to something indigenious to Ireland,,you are the bullock that resides in the UK and have'nt a clue.What this site has forgot and what members don't understand is that to truely have a grasp of whats going on on the auld sod is that you have to live here and live it.Whats the point of giving the diaspora abroad the vote if they are not here to suffer the consequences or to enjoy the benefits.My attitude to Irish emmigrants is the same attitude I have towards the Irish that live here.Every man for himself and God for us all.

• kinvara7 | Jul 06, 2011, 07:02 AM EDT

  @Niall: If you had wanted a ‘healthy debate’ you should have written a more balanced article; you have given one side of the argument according to your immediate interest. The result of that is the usual race to the bottom comment thread. I am in favour of strengthening ties between Ireland and the Diaspora, as are many other Irish citizens. Together we could create a global community, aware of itself and consciously re-imagining itself and a shared future; a future where a culture and a community are protected, practiced and promoted. Niall you rightly allude to the damage that is caused on the relationship when financial factors are seen as the most important element, yet are you yourself not guilty of reducing the discourse to that level; wasn’t that the main element of your campaign, using the Diaspora for the financial advantage of the Irish Republic. Unfortunately, it looks like this debate will descend into the usual farce based on anecdotes, ignorance and dearly loved narratives of the past. Here is a suggestion: why don’t we agree that we want Ireland to be better and that all Irish people should be allowed to play a part in bringing that about, and as a result remain a part and feel as though they belong to that community. What can be done to change the misunderstandings that exist? What sort of rights and responsibilities could or should be afforded to members of the Irish Diaspora?

• Towngate | Jul 06, 2011, 05:59 AM EDT

  Niall, a chara, I think you know the answer to your own question @ 04.40. You got just a taste of it on your last trip to Dublin to gain suppport for your Presidential campaign. If you had stayed much longer you would have had a complete belly-full and left in no doubt how the insular,parochial little Irelanders generally feel about those who have left. On a private family level it is rent with despairing grief and endless heartache, of course for 'lost' children,brothers and sisters and sometimes even parents - who seek a better opportunity abroad, wondering why a country they love so much could be so cruel to them! Niall, the fault is not in the country - but with the individuals who wield the power and influence within it: The GAA,IFU,The Old Guard!,the invideous poison seeming from every 'Parish Pump'. ~ ~ ~ Even the bould Gerry Adams who thinks he's sitting pretty with SF party members in three seperate 'Parliaments' will find that when he decides to really step forward and chance his arm, towards the '...death-point of the battle-spear' - that the Sheeple of Shamrockshire will give him an even shorter answer that he boasted on tv about giving you! Slainte.

• WalterEllis | Jul 06, 2011, 04:28 AM EDT

  tredagh: You're absolutely right. But he's stalking me, too. I think we should both stop. Let me be the first to at least try. And thanks for pointing it out. Sometimes it needs an outsider to make you see the bleeding obvious.

• GeorgeDillon | Jul 06, 2011, 02:47 AM EDT

  "Dublin the largest and the most English of Irish cities". More nonsense from the usual suspect sirpeter. I guess sirpeter was in some kind of stupor when the people of Cork came out in their thousands to curtsey and fawn before Queen Elizabeth. In fact there were suggestions afterwards that Cork be renamed "Queen's County".

• GeorgeDillon | Jul 06, 2011, 02:43 AM EDT

  casualMBA: Re your reference to me and a U-boat. Are you confusing me with someone else? What's that all about?

• CitizenWhy | Jul 05, 2011, 10:42 PM EDT

  The role of the Diaspora is pointless, now that the New Irish Ascendancy (the IMF, Deutsche Bank) rules firmly through their loyal land agents known as the irish government.Time to sell off Ireland's assets and get on with being a colony again.

• cillpeader | Jul 05, 2011, 07:49 PM EDT

  Having migrated to Australia in 1980 and returned on a frequent basis. I have always felt my friends and family assumed migration and sucess was automatic. Like someone meets you on your arrival in your new country with a bag of money. Most of us became more irish in our new countries. I believe migration is a great education and makes us more worldly. I believe the Irish migrant has a lot to offer mother Ireland. She does not know how to ask us and we have not grouped to become a force.

• sirpeter | Jul 05, 2011, 07:24 PM EDT

  If this is a debate about weather the Diaspora should have a vote and a say in who runs the Country I could think of a reason why the government of Ireland wouldn't want that.I may be wrong but in the government eyes WHO are the Diaspora.They are those mostly who are forced to leave because their government couldn't provide jobs for them.Many must be bitter about having to leave their families and Country ect.Bitter against the government also.After the famine a member of the British house of parliament said "All we have done is pushed the Celt further West into a land where they will have unforeseen advantages"Alot of financial and moral support has always come from America,but also alot of financial and moral support for the Republican movement.The Irish government didn't like that.If just 2 million or less of the Diaspora had the vote they would vote for change.Change without suffering the consequences of that change.Dublin the largest and the most English of Irish cities has a very big say in the running of this Country.They have it set up so that the reigns of power is firmly in their hands and it has been for generations.There sons and daughters will be looked after.But to the Irish Diaspora it's hands off.

• JBRAFTREE | Jul 05, 2011, 07:18 PM EDT

  I'm gettin' too old for this stuff. But I love it.

• PaddyMac | Jul 05, 2011, 06:38 PM EDT

  @walter: "When you spoke the words "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen," did you mean what you were saying or did you keep the fingers of the hand that you weren't using to cover your heart crossed behind your back?" Hey, that's exactly what I did actually! I heartily renounced the prince etc, but didn't actually say the word "state". I could have gone "la la la" for the whole thing since there were about 25,000 in the room in Los Angeles and no one would have noticed what with all the different accents...! ;)

• casualMBA | Jul 05, 2011, 06:20 PM EDT

  c-themurphia…first, (failing the Irish,) “‘nada” to your courtesy…second, nice pivot to the JFK phrase of what we can do for our country…with Towngate’s Billion euros per year of Irish freedom, we had best do more, as diaspora, than “send us the bill”… enfranchising the diaspora,it seems to me, can take place from from “the top down” (beyond Irish citizenship,) as well as from the “grass roots” of extending the vote… Noreen Bowden’s site shows wide ranging proposals to address the issue…the costs (a factor at its pace perhaps?) of providing institutional representation, beyond some token rendition , is not insignificant…However, given a multi billion euro package and its consequent quest for significant foreign (please God, diaspora facilitated) investment, it would seem incumbent (not a quid pro quo issue) on the government to include, seek, extend, formal diaspora representation of some kind. Just seems fair, for some reason.

• themurphia | Jul 05, 2011, 04:50 PM EDT

  Up until now the Diaspora has had no influence...however the situation has changed an we need to capitalise on it...Article 16.1 of Bunreacht na hEireann gives a constitutional right to vote to Irish citizens...Now that we are in a stronger bagaining position we should exploit that to our advantage...The attitude to emigrants is evident from the terms used to describe them 'blow-in' 'returned yank' 'alien'... and the support afforded to the elderly irish who want to return home receive...i.e. none...There has been real momentum recently because of pressure from the children of previous emigrants to end this disenfranchisement...but little action from within Ireland because 'out of sight means out of mind' for those who remain whereas it means 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' for those who have left...The diaspora is now better organised less deferrent/obsequious and more aware...It's no longer just about what we can do for our country but what our country can do for us...!

• eiriamach | Jul 05, 2011, 04:42 PM EDT

  As an interested American, I think that anyone holding Irish citizenship, including dual citizenship, should receive an absentee ballot if he or she has spent any time in Ireland during the past ten years (the lifespan of a passport in the USA). And there should be exceptions for those who cannot afford to return but who keep in touch with events in Ireland. With the Internet, email, telephone, and international cable TV broadcasts, there's more than one way of "being there." The first step for the diaspora should be winning the right to vote from wherever they are. Other democratic nations send their citizens absentee ballots. Why not Ireland? (Also, I would not call them "emigrants" unless they have renounced their Irish citizenship and acquired foreign citizenship.)

• tredagh | Jul 05, 2011, 04:40 PM EDT

  Niall be careful I think Walter Ellis is stalking you. Get a life Wally.

• Niall O'Dowd | Jul 05, 2011, 04:30 PM EDT

  Guys I think this is part of a healthy debate. What is the real attitude to irish emigrants in ireland? I think Noreen has pointed out some very interesting facts.

• eiriamach | Jul 05, 2011, 04:26 PM EDT

  While I was living in Ireland as an American citizen, I had the right to vote in Irish elections, a limited right (I could not vote in every category). It made sense to me, and I appreciated it. I knew, and knew enough about, candidates for the comhairle contae, for example, to cast an informed vote. Whether Irish citizens working abroad should be able to vote in Irish elections is a more complex question. I'd guess that any of the diaspora who are interested enough to know about the issues and candidates would vote if they could, and that those who have lost touch or do not care about the issues, simply wouldn't vote. If they could vote, Niall's candidacy would not seem as odd to those in Ireland. It does seem odd to me, however, that an American citizen in Ireland can vote in Irish elections and an Irish citizen in the USA cannot vote in Irish elections! "Being there" seems to be the important thing.

• Towngate | Jul 05, 2011, 03:14 PM EDT

  Niall, "...like the man said several times in your 'House of Comments' - Go away. Stay away. ~ you are better off out of it." - succeeding generations of Irish 'politicians' have rubbed their hands in glee at the sight of the young talent if Ireland heading for the Ports, because they were then absolved of their responsibility for these unfortunate fellow so-called Citizens. Consider ninety years of Irish 'freedom' - and a blind man can see NOTHING has been achieved in the name of the Irish except a BILLION owed now for each and every year of that freedom and independence! The writing is on the wall for Ireland. It is only the self-deluding Irish who can't read what it says!!!

• themurphia | Jul 05, 2011, 03:02 PM EDT

  casualMBA:Go raith mile maith agat.!

• WalterEllis | Jul 05, 2011, 02:52 PM EDT

  Stop this now, Niall. Move on. The force is not with you.

• casualMBA | Jul 05, 2011, 02:01 PM EDT

  @kinvara7...I, for one, read themurphia's comments with interest...and interest is one of the things that has the diaspora upset...ref. G.D.'s Argentinian account (or U-boat,) the genuine diaspora of Ireland's sons and daughters is concerned about the selling out of Ireland's cultural core to the Europeans and global immigrants, whatever their motives...and now the IMF shows up to be sure the tiger's laundry is fluffed..

• themurphia | Jul 05, 2011, 01:31 PM EDT

  The choice between starvation and emigration...in a country with no prospects and no way of providing for it's people...the boat or the breadline...what would you do...? A country whose Taoiseach tells it's young people to commit suicide...you've come a long way baby...now you want us to bail you out again...Call in the bank debts then come back with your begging bowl...!

• Yardleypa | Jul 05, 2011, 01:11 PM EDT

  Its like having an election over who is going to captain the titanic.The country is the most indebited country on earth it will take a least a generation to pay off this debt that is if the generation do not leave.

• Trealach | Jul 05, 2011, 12:52 PM EDT

  This sounds like an article of 'Sour Grapes' from a man who "Claims" to have had a "short run at the presidency" - when in fact he was neither asked, financed, or ran for the Presidency, since none of the 'chosen' candidates have started the Campaign. It makes little difference whether the Government 'recognise' the Oath of Allegiance or not, since the Government has absolutely no say in who is elected President. It does however make a significant difference to the People who CHOSE to STAY and re-build the economy. They are NOT the ones who turned their backs on their homeland. They are NOT the ones who RAN at the first sign of hardship, and they are NOT the ones who betrayed their country by swearing an Allegiance to a foreign flag to the exclusion of their homeland. The Diaspora CAN help - either financially if that is their chosen method, OR they can return to their homeland and be an integral part of re-building it. IF however they wish to stay sitting on the fence and simply give lip service then they can póg mo thion!!

• kinvara7 | Jul 05, 2011, 12:42 PM EDT

  @Niall: I think this was a bad choice of article so soon after dropping out of the presidential race; it just sounds like sour grapes. You yourself acknowledged the novelty of an Irish American running for President of Ireland, and yet when a mild opinion piece was written about that very novelty, you showed yourself to be very thin skinned indeed. What if one of the candidates from the ‘two tribal parties’ (no themurphia I’m not talking about FF and FG but rather the Democrats and Republicans) announced that they had sworn an oath of absolute allegiance to another state? What would the ‘attitude’ of the American electorate be to that? What sort of debate would be generated by that? How long would they remain a viable candidate? Niall you had support in Ireland, however, it likely wasn’t enough to win; the gap in necessary votes would have had little to do with you being an Irish American.

• themurphia | Jul 05, 2011, 12:29 PM EDT

  If there is a 'house-style' that commenters are expected to comply with perhaps the IV would let me know..otherwise I will continue to post my comments as I see fit...

• themurphia | Jul 05, 2011, 12:17 PM EDT

  'A well meaning person'...'Overblown comments'...?'achieve the result I desire'...?I am expressing an opinion...it is based on observation and experience...How I chose to express it is a matter for me...if you disagree with what I say feel free to say so your patronising comments will not have the desired result...

• kinvara7 | Jul 05, 2011, 12:00 PM EDT

  @themurphia: you are probably a well meaning person, but your overblown comments will do little to achieve the result you desire, in fact it will achieve the opposite. @GeorgeDillion: your comments have as much value as a Zimbabwean dollar (which is probably why you feel the need to make so many of them).

• WalterEllis | Jul 05, 2011, 09:34 AM EDT

  Niall: it looks like this one is going to run and run. Anyway ... in my "comical" oped for the Irish Times, I did not say that you were legally prevented from standing for the presidency of Ireland. What I strongly implied was that, having taken an oath of allegiance to the United States, it was morally dubious on your part to campaign to become the head of state of another country. Had you agreed to give up your U.S. passport, that would have been one thing. But I don't think that was ever on the cards, was it? You intended, in fact – rather like Noreen Bowden – to move between the two jurisdictions, depending on your mood and immediate job prospects, while owing ultimate allegiance to neither. When you spoke the words "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen," did you mean what you were saying or did you keep the fingers of the hand that you weren't using to cover your heart crossed behind your back? But then again, what do I know? As you have previously pointed out, I'm just a British Unionist obituary writer from Northern Ireland and an acolyte of Mad Major Bunting.

• themurphia | Jul 05, 2011, 09:32 AM EDT

  This issue predates Emigrant Advice globalirish.ie journal.ie and whatever you're having yourself...the Irish clubs and societies like the gangers and the building mafia exploited the 'ordinary man' and treated him worse than the boss nation...The indignity of the hiring line working on 'the lump' without safety gear being paid in the pub...added insult to injury...Finally have been worked almost to death like beasts of burden where did they have to go...not 'home' anyway...Where was the church the Irish Societies the 'safety nets' then...?...wanted neither at home or abroad...Shame on the Irish Governments...it is precisely the exclusion of the Emigrants that has had Irish politics in the strangelhold of the two tribal parties...the conservatism of those that did not have to leave...I'm all right Jackeen...Ireland is reduced to a glorified retirement village...that and the celtic tiger litter...pun intended...no wonder they don't want us to rock the boat...No longer No Blacks no Irish just no Irish...!

• antoman | Jul 05, 2011, 09:08 AM EDT

  Having lived in Argentina?I have no doubt he did,arrived there by U-boat at the close of war.

• GeorgeDillon | Jul 05, 2011, 08:43 AM EDT

  Good Article. Having lived in Argentina, I am familiar with the totally contemptuous manner in which the Irish government treated the desperate cries for help from the Irish-Argentine community when a massive social crisis hit that country a decade or so ago. There were riots in the street, mass poverty, waves of vicious criminality, people's savings were wiped out. The Irish-Argentine community appealed to Dublin to be permitted to send their sons and daughters to work in Ireland until the crisis would blow over. These young people were highly-educated, engineers, doctors, computer scientists etc. Most spoke English competently or even perfectly. Large numbers had done their best to preserve their ethnic heritage in difficult circumstances. This was a time when Ireland needed skilled workers. But what was the response of the Dublin government, composed mostly of the corrupt gangsters of Fianna Fail? Lets say it rhymed with Duck Cough. I heard of cases where Irish Argentines arrived at Dublin Airport but were turned away by Irish agents. So, while Nigerians, Chinese, Russians, Poles, Latvians, etc. people who knew nothing of Ireland and only wanted to make money out that country, were strolling thru Immigration at Dublin Airport, young Argentine descendents of people who were forced to leave Ireland in the 19th Century were told to Go to Hell. That was a lesson to me, my first understanding that large numbers of Irish are contemptible trash who deserve every misfortune that befalls them. These creeps will look in vain to me for help!

• TheYank | Jul 05, 2011, 08:10 AM EDT

  themurphia,
  
  I can assure you that the Emigrant Advice Network - Noreen Bowden in particular - has been all over this issue for years. It's only that nobody was listening until the last few weeks.
  
  Look at this page from the GlobalIrish.ie web site run by Noreen and you'll get some idea as to the the length & depth of her involvement on the issue.

• themurphia | Jul 05, 2011, 07:18 AM EDT

  It is interesting that it has taken groups such as the emigrant advice network this long to recognise this.I made these exact points in my first comment on this site when I alerted the IV to Ellis's article...but maybe it is only those with connections that are deemed to have a valid point...What have the Irish Societies been doing for the last half century...they have received funding from UK and Ireland for various projects... they have Federations but none of them have used their political clout to benefit the Irish abroad...Talking out of both sides of their mouths...keeping themselves in jobs...I repeat the Irish Diaspora either need to do some tough bargaining and get some benefit for their buck or cut the umbilical cord...We and the generations before us have kept Ireland afloat in the hard times yet when Irishmen and women who worked the hard backbreaking dirty jobs that the indigenous population did not want what was there for them when they went home...Zero zilch nada...Some never returned because they were too ashamed to have nothing to show for their lives of exile after sending the money home every week from their paypackets...Well we're the children of those emigrants and won't be making the same mistake...The clear message should be...you want a 'bail out...sure but these are the terms...either that or we bale out and get on with our lives...