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Periscope by Niall O'Dowd

Irish divided in their attitudes to emigrants---- Just send the money the message from some

Posted on Monday, July 04, 2011 at 11:29 PM

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Noreen Bowden has worked on Irish emigrant issues for 20 years and headed up the Irish Emigrant Advice Network at one point for several years .

She understands better than most the ambivalence in Ireland towards emigrants and those who leave the country.

She has just written a thought provoking piece for Journal.ie on this very subject. It makes compelling reading.

Partly it was brought up by my brief run for Irish president where the Irish Times op ed page and several other newspapers questioned whether I had the right to run as an American and Irish dual citizen.

Bowden writes that all is fine as long as emigrants and the Diaspora are sending back money and helping with investment but becoming part of the system or having actual input is not a part of the bargain as far as the Irish are concerned.

She states "When times are tough,... we hear the calls to embrace our renewed status as an emigrant nation. The loudest of these voices tend to belong to those who feel no urge to move themselves’

She notes that "In the 1980s, Brian Lenihan Snr’s “We can’t all live on a small island” seemed to sum up governmental complacency. During the current crisis, it was former Tánaiste Mary Coughlan who highlighted the government’s non-response to rising emigration figures: she claimed young people were emigrating because “they want to enjoy themselves. That’s what young people are entitled to do.”

She is making a point I fully understand.

Talk of emigration being good neatly sidesteps involuntary emigration which is a critical issue right now in Ireland,It is fine for those who want to go abroad, but what about the 50 per cent of young people who are afraid they will have to emigrate just to get a job?

Bowden points out that the Irish leaders like to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to emigrants and the Diaspora.

She writes; "It may have been Mary Robinson who started the celebration of the diaspora in Ireland in the 1990s, but her embrace was soon followed by the phenomenon of diaspora engagement for economic purposes. Irish policy-makers realised we were on to something."

She notes that "The Irish establishment has responded enthusiastically. Former Taoiseach Brian Cowen eagerly talked up the diaspora as a “huge and willing resource” when he launched the Smart Economy strategy in 2010. Enda Kenny was thinking similarly when he announced the initiative in which diaspora members would be paid for job creation. During the crisis, the notion that the diaspora could save us from our financial fate has loomed large. There seems to be no limit to what we can ask of our loyal foot soldiers abroad."

However, Bowden points out that when it came to having an emigrant possibly running for president it became a very different take.

The mentality among some was that ‘He’s not one of us’ she writes.

"There were plenty of voices pointing out that O’Dowd isn’t really one of us any more.

She notes that "The Irish Times ran an unintentionally comical article from the Northern Ireland-born, New York-resident Walter Ellis, who plaintively opined that O’Dowd “would not get my vote”. No surprise there, as Ellis is as disenfranchised as O’Dowd. Irish Times editors thoughtfully appended to the article the text of the US oath of allegiance taken by immigrants when they became US citizens. They did not add that the Irish government does not recognise such oaths as a renunciation of Irish citizenship."

Bowden concludes that " Once you go, your money, your contacts, and your expertise are welcome. Your presence in the political system is not."

That is an interesting finding and one that will hit home with emigrants everywhere. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 08:14 AM EDT

How bizare you use 'ad idem' as I was typing my comment and before yours was posted...? Spooky...Now here's a thing..it has been discovered allegedly that the Polar Bears ancestors were Irish...would they qualify for a vote would they want to?...ok just codding...But it is an apt metaphor for the Irish economy after the hot Celtic Tiger years...'Tigris Tigris Celticus Hibernicus' as he liked to be know on formal occasions we now have the Celtic economic winter and an appropriate zoologiacl metaphor 'Ursus Ursus Celticus Hibernicus'...as no it doubt said on his emigration visa...!Translation As Gaeilge anyone..?

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themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 07:49 AM EDT

No kinvara...you decided that I was going to set out a scheme and tell you how it was going to be implemented...I don't agree that there should be a financial consideration to use a legal term...imposed on CITIZENS...to exercise their albeit qualified right to vote...my argument is that the DIVIDENDS would be benefits in kind a commitment from entrepreneurs and those who have been successful abroad investing in the oul sod in some way...That is my poosition on CITIZENS who I think should have a vote as of rright regardless of status as residents...What you are suggesting could be a way of allowing non-CITIZENS ie. those who are born out of Ireland but want to preserve their cultural and family ties in some way...that could be a way of raising revenue...I am opposed to the no representation without taxation for the reasons previously stated...many people move to Ireland specfically to avoid tax some only have to cross the road in the border counties...Failing that I suggest you collect the confirmation money....are we ad idem...? And what is more we have made the ton.... ***************************100 club************************

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kinvara7 | Jul 08, 2011, 07:38 AM EDT

Walter: We are not ad idem, as they say, but I see where you are coming from. My view is that if I moved abroad I would like the opportunity to vote in Irish elections (so I understand the views of some posters who have genuine views on this) however I would not agree with that right being provided solely at the expense of those at home. Furthermore, because I care enough to vote, I would also care enough to contribute (albeit a small amount). I don’t want to write down a figure, but I think it should be a bit more than just the cost of providing the right etc. I imagine that if I was a non-resident citizen, and I paid this amount, I would like it to go towards things that improve and enhance the Republic; things that can be enjoyed by all Irish citizens whether resident in Ireland or not; funding the arts, sport etc. Where we probably disagree the most is where I suggest that certain rights could be extended beyond those who have been born in Ireland (subject to conditions).

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kinvara7 | Jul 08, 2011, 07:17 AM EDT

No themurphia, I'm just trying to move the debate along. Now if I recall you were going to expand on your proposal to extend voting rights in exchange for ‘a commitment from the Diaspora to support Ireland’. Specifically, you were going to set out how such a scheme could be implemented and checked. I too am interested in the principle: the principle that in a Republic, citizens not only have rights but responsibilities as well. Clearly, given your proposal, you agree. What we should now discuss is what sort of responsibilities should non-resident citizens have in return for voting rights? In my opinion it should be a small nominal tax (for those who can pay). Why? Because I believe it is fair; because it could be implemented quickly and effectively; it could also be monitored and checked easily. Furthermore, it would contribute to the well being of the Republic (which should be an important consideration for all citizens). I acknowledge your genuine views and I will listen to all reasonable proposals. Kind regards.

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themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 05:47 AM EDT

kinvara: you are intrepid...!You are still working from the premise of the status quo i.e. as Article 16.2 unamended...I'm sorry I haven't got time to go into this in detail but the costs cannot be the reason for not finding a way around this...I believe the reasons are political not financial...It's the principle I'm interested in... Also there must be some contingency funds in the Overseas budget funds that could be creatively accounted for...Do I detect a slight shift in your position re taxation as the determining criterion to one of residence...? The ballot box.ie campaign is indicative of the interest in this topic it was extrordinary how quickly the subject gathered momentum in the couple of weeks before the election...Your research is interesting and valuable to the issues...a bientot!Keep posting...!

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kinvara7 | Jul 08, 2011, 05:18 AM EDT

A small nominal tax; a fee for voting; ‘a commitment to support’ does it matter that much what we call it for the moment; can we all agree that there needs to be a tangible contribution? I know that some citizens here in Ireland would have reservations about extending voting rights to non-resident citizens, but their reasonable concerns could be allayed. To begin with the right would only extend to those who had been born in Ireland (about 1 million people). How many of them would choose to vote? Perhaps in time it would be a sizeable proportion but the reality is that their voting patterns would not be that different to those at home. According to the case law of the ECHR, the exclusion of non-resident citizens from the right to vote can be justified on a variety of grounds. Examples of which are: the assumption that a non-resident citizen is less directly or continuously concerned with, and has less knowledge of, a country’s day-to-day problems; the correlation between one’s right to vote in parliamentary elections and being directly affected by the acts of the political bodies so elected. However, those who are willing to apply (and provide a form of contribution) clearly have a continuing interest in the affairs and wellbeing of the Republic. If they have to contribute (albeit a nominal amount and according to their ability) just like resident citizens, then there is a correlation between one’s right to vote in parliamentary elections and being directly affected by the acts of the political bodies so elected. The right to vote balanced against the responsibility to contribute. It is simple, it is fair and it is rational.

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themurphia | Jul 08, 2011, 04:47 AM EDT

casualMBA:No a mhic...only the sword of justice...more o'merta than o'malley...shhhh...:-)

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casualMBA | Jul 07, 2011, 09:32 PM EDT

Americans "more Irish than the Irish?" Didn't Mel Gibson holler that in some bloody scene?

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casualMBA | Jul 07, 2011, 09:23 PM EDT

Are we close to triple digit glory yet?

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casualMBA | Jul 07, 2011, 09:22 PM EDT

Niall has already moved on to the world of Murdoch, and appropriately enough

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Towngate | Jul 07, 2011, 07:03 PM EDT

Niall, a Chara: As we approach the magic number of 100 Comments when you give us all a new pencil and an eraser and a green lollipop to suck and pat us on the head for being good boys, we must all surely realise this notion of involving the so-called Irish Diaspora as a unified body in Irish Home Affairs is a "no-hope non-starting dead duck in the water without a cats snowballs chance in hell!" - - - It will never happen; fundamentally because nobody really wants it to; and it is fraught with insurmountable complexities and would be vehemently repulsed in any event by the Irish Government and People! - - - So long as the Authorities and population at large benefit from the people fleeing abroad, nothing will change in the forseeable future. NO politician or Priest is ever going to stand up and declare we should "...let the likes of them who deserted us in our darkest hour to fend for ourselves all alone here and were den and now are demselves living de life av Riley in heeethen places the like New Guinea, Peruvia, Iningland or Americana or where-ever - to now start spouting out of them an' go tellin' us what to do here! Well,I'm tellin' ya:- they can just stay where they are - and bad cess to them!" / / / Well-intentioned and passionate Commenters here who still believe it can happen should now join the Queue to perform flagellation upon the deceased equine. The line forms on the right ---> Slainte!

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antoman | Jul 07, 2011, 05:54 PM EDT

Closes the door behind Walter Ellis. Elvis has left the building.

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eiriamach | Jul 07, 2011, 04:37 PM EDT

What is all this squabbling about? I thought you'd all get on with the discussion and come up with a workable plan or strategy to enfranchise the diaspora. Instead, you're at it again! Ho hum.... Back on track then: who knows a member of the Dail who might be willing to help draft and then sponsor the needed legislation? You won't succeed if you call for payment of a poll tax, but you might succeed in charging ex-pat voters a fee for mailing a voter's packet, based on each citizen's area of most recent residence in Ireland: it would include a mail-in ballot and would list the candidates standing for election, their email and web site addresses, and biographical data. It would give synopses of every important issue before the government and how each candidate would vote on it. A government info office should compile and mail this packet a least a couple of weeks before the election date. Addresses of ex-pats or migrant workers abroad-- whatever you choose to call them-- should be publicly available through this info office, so it would then be possible to organize and set up, perhaps, a "convention" on an Internet site so that they could nominate their own candidates once they have a way to vote in Irish elections. Nil neart go cur le cheile! Maybe Niall O' Dowd knows someone in Irish government who would help move the process forward. If migrant worker citizens already have the constitutional right to vote, they need to get it working for themselves!

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WalterEllis | Jul 07, 2011, 04:27 PM EDT

Wounded George: I answered that point back on June 18, when I wrote: "As to your point about 'no one more one Irish than me,' this was, of course, not meant to be taken literally. What I meant was the assumption by many Irish Americans that they are in some sense the true custodians of an Irish culture that the 'mere' Irish of Ireland have betrayed." But what about you, George Knee? I'm calling you a coward to your face ... or at least I would if I knew which of your two faces I was talking to. And on that note, I hereby leave this discussion.

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GeorgeDillon | Jul 07, 2011, 03:43 PM EDT

Walterellis: It's liars like you who are unwelcome in any discussion. You don't like it when I condemn you for your lies, do you? There's a solution: stop spreading absurd lies, such as your claim that Irish Americans wake up every morning and congratulate themselves for being more Irish than the Irish themselves. That's got to be the dumbest lie I've ever seen. Do the right thing now and retract it and we can start afresh.

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