143 Comments

• 2BorNot2B | Oct 03, 2011, 03:29 PM EDT

  Oh, you poor thing.. your email holds evidence of people trying to silence you?? Nope... not a single one from me!! I can hardly steal time from my business to stop by and amuse myself with all the whining here. -- But it's really a big temptation to come and have a laugh. -- So you'll just have to dream on lady. Direct your vitriol and your lawsuits elsewhere. I don't do house visits, and don't address personal crazy. But I do like to confront mob attacks from sore misfits, if you get my drift. -- So I’ll continue to drive-by and see what possible hemorrhoid is bothering both you and Junie the bible-thumper at any given time.

• eiriamach | Oct 03, 2011, 06:41 AM EDT

  "moderator-infused restraints"? There's no surprise in a fanatic's call for censorship. Niall O' Dowd, I doubt that you need to hear a voice opposing censorship. Surely you have lawyers to assure you that litigation against free speech on the Internet is pretty much a hopeless cause. And there are other reasons why you should not remove posts by fanatics like 2Bor or advocates like JuneAnnette. First, 2Bor's psychopathology is transparent enough so that a child could see through his attempts to silence women willing to express views that violate his long-lost idyllic world of Catholic, compliant-female gender roles that survive only in the delusions of him and his ever-smaller circle of "like-minded people." Our words trip their panic lever, and below you see the result of 2B's feeling assailed by the reality he desperately fends off. Others see it too, and sooner or later sense dawns on those who cheer on the Miniver Cheevys. My email holds evidence of repeated attempts to silence me, not only from the psychopath male lead assailant, but also from helpers who think they're safe themselves as long as they abet his attacks-- with insults of the type 2Bor slings here and invitations to digital virus attacks and going on two years' worth of criminal-level harassment. Psychopaths do not cease until they are properly coerced by the proper authorities, so please do not remove anything that might ever become evidence.

• 2BorNot2B | Oct 02, 2011, 04:22 PM EDT

  Will JuneAgnnewtt ever stop plagiarizing fanciful anti-Cath stories from Foxes' book of 'martyrs' and/or books written by that decrepit, devil-resembling hater (soon to meet his reward) Richard Bennett? Egads... this woman is a single-purpose proddy-tract copying machine, intent on turning these blogs into her personal proselytizing vehicle!! A true ant with a rant full of 'high hopes' this droning bore is! -- The worst part is that the 'moderators' remain curiously silent in view of her grievous and overwhelming abuse of space, and her ostensible threat of turning this blog into a yawning bore filled to an 85% capacity with her christtalibanistic plagiarized musings. Somebody... please!!! Stuff a sock in her pie hole and tie her digits up with a good dose of moderator-infused restraints. -- I for one have to stay away for months to stop my eyes from glazing, as well as to avoid both her screeds and the eeriemuck's PONTIFICATIONS! This last one has been promoting her own elevation to the cardinal college, where she is sure her abundant verbiage will charm the purple-robed ones into handing her the papacy. No doubt she will immediately decree a Vatican runway show where the robes will be 'rainbow colored.' Yup, pretty obvious what type of current powers her generator.

• eiriamach | Sep 26, 2011, 04:39 PM EDT

  Well, JuneAnnette, no rational consideration ever succeeded in reaching edmicca? Sad! I don't believe in putting energy into hopeless causes, and when people cling so irrationally to fixed ideas that they reject facts and evidence and can only lash out at people trying to reason with them, it's hopeless. I grew up in a multi-ethnic urban neighborhood with the children of many Eastern European and South American immigrants and African-American families that had moved north during and post-WWII. I heard stories of RCC priests involved in genocidal incidents and the RCC alliances with political power that you write about, especially from Jewish friends whose families talked of the Pope's concordat with Nazis, and former fascista who had fled with Church help to South America. Although those stories troubled me over the years, they did not hit hard at my conscience until the 1970s, when I actually saw the Catholic clergy's demonizing of feminists working for equal rights. Then I HAD TO figure out how people who think and preach Christianity as a life's work can be devils incarnate to their fellow mortals. I've written about it before-- it's that desperate need for an authority in their lives, and the more absolute the authority, the more irrational, to the point of cruelty, their loyalty to it. Facts and reason cannot compete with a mindless identification with that all-powerful-- and their "all-powerful" has nothing whatever to do with God or the example of Christ! I'm sorry to see you waste your energy on people with that mindset.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 20, 2011, 02:51 PM EDT

  EDMICCA . . MURDER is against both the laws of GOD and MAN,and only men consumed with HATE and acting out of malice could commit and sanction such brutal and inhumane acts cited below that culminated in the death of millions. These are not the works of servants of the Lord, nor of the disciples of Christ . . but the very works of the devil! As Christ has said: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.” (John 8:44a) Christ gave HIS CHURCH the express command / commission to “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” (Mark 16:15) Those who reject the Gospel, in effect reject Christ and in those cases, Christ instructed His disciples to “shake the dust off their feet for a testimony against them.” (Luke 9:1-6) Christ never commended and/or sanctioned VIOLENCE. But . . in brazen disobedience to Christ's express command, the Roman Catholic church embarked upon a ruthless campaign of forced conversions marked by bloodshed, torture, tyranny, and oppression. Preaching the Gospel of free and sovereign grace of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ is the methodology Christ ordained for HIS followers . . HIS disciples . . HIS CHURCH . . to evangelize the world and was the exclusive means the apostles employed as recorded in the New Testament. GOD's WORD as it is found in EXODUS 20:13: “Thou shalt not kill.” and in MATT. 7:16a: “ye shall know them by their fruits.”***God's Word governs the ONE TRUE CHURCH of JESUS CHRIST of which CHRIST is the HEAD!***"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the HEAD of the CHURCH: and HE is the SAVIOUR of the body." (Eph. 5:23) (Emphasis mine)

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 02:24 PM EDT

  Article: How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II / The Case of Archbishop Stepinac / Published by the Embassy of the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia Washington, 1947 / In the village of Stikade, in Lika, the Ustashi were under the leadership of the Catholic priest Morber. Morber invited the Serbs to be converted to the Catholic religion. Those of them who accepted in good faith his proposal to be converted the Ustashi surrounded and massacred with rifles and hammers and threw the bodies into a ditch. When the bodies were dug up later it was established that many had been alive when buried. Franciscans from the monastery in Sinj, Ivan Hrstic, Stanko Litre and Joso Olujic, personally maltreated captured Partisan Serbs and Partisan Croats. Hrstic was a major and Litre a captain in the Ustashi army.Franciscan Mijo Cujic of Duvno personally gave instructions regarding the massacre of Serbs in the villages of Prisoje and Vrila, where not one person was allowed to remain alive.This Ustashi program of mass murder as a way of helping Hitler and Mussolini resulted in the death of over 800,000 persons--Serbs, Croat anti-fascists, Jews.***GOD'S WORD as it is found in EXODUS 20:13: “Thou shalt not kill.***". . Deliver us from EVIL." (Matt. 6:13)

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 02:21 PM EDT

  Article: How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II / The Case of Archbishop Stepinac / Published by the Embassy of the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia Washington, 1947 / In Dvor na Uni priest Anton Djuric kept a diary of his activities as an Ustashi functionary. The diary shows that at his order the Ustashi plundered and burned the village of Segestin, where 150 Serbs were murdered, and that in the village Goricka he arrested 117 people, who were sent to a concentration camp, where most of them were killed. A group of Franciscan priests who tortured and finally killed 25 Serbs in the village of Kasle took pictures of the "execution."In Hercegovina the center of the Ustashi movement was located in the Franciscan monastery and the high school of Siroki Brijeg. The Catholic Dean in Stolac in Hercegovina, priest Marko Zovko, was responsible for the murder of 200 persons, whose bodies were thrown into a ditch in a field in Vidovo. Curate Ilija Tomas from the village of Klepac was responsible for the death of many Serbs in that district. In order more easily to capture frightened victims who were fleeing to the mountains, he promised them that no harm would befall them if they would embrace the Catholic religion. Many of them believed this and called on him, whereupon he turned them over to the Ustashi, who murdered them.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 02:19 PM EDT

  Article: How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II / The Case of Archbishop Stepinac / Published by the Embassy of the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia Washington, 1947/Franciscan Miroslav Filipovic was a member of the illegal Ustashi organization before the war. After establishment of the Independent State of Croatia he participated in massacres in the villages of Drakulic, near Banjaluka. According to his own admission at a hearing his first victim was a child, whom he killed personally while telling the Ustashi:***"Ustashi, I re-christen these degenerates in the name of God and you follow my example." That was in the village of Drakulic, where 1,500 Serbs were killed in one day. Ustashi authorities later made this Franciscan commandant of Jasenovac, an Ustashi concentration camp which equaled Dachau in horror. When captured, Filipovic admitted he had ordered the murder of 40,000 men, women and children in the camp. Besides Filipovic, the Catholic priests Zvonko Brekalo, Zvonko Lipovac, Franciscan Culina and others also worked at the Jasenovac camp.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 02:17 PM EDT

  Article: How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II / The Case of Archbishop Stepinac / Published by the Embassy of the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia Washington, 1947/ Chief organizer of massacres of the Serbs in Bosnia was curate Bozidar Brale from Sarajevo. He took part in the killings with gun in hand and advocated "liquidation of the Serbs without compromise." Archbishop Saric later named the same Brale to the presidency of the Spiritual Board of the Archbishopric of Sarajevo.Priest Srecko Peric of the Gorica monastery near Livno declared in one of his sermons in the church in Gorica:"Kill and massacre all Serbs. First of all, kill my sister, who is married to a Serb and then all Serbs. When you finish this work, come to me here in the church and I will confess you and free you from sin."The massacre then began, and by August 10, 1941, 5,600 Serbs had been killed in the District of Livno alone.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 02:16 PM EDT

  Article: How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II / The Case of Archbishop Stepinac / Published by the Embassy of the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia Washington, 1947/ Slaughter of the Serbs in Bosanska Gradiska was organized by priest Dr. Branimir Zupanic. As an Ustashi before the fall of Yugoslavia and a personal friend of Ante Pavelic, his words were decisive at the meeting at which the decision was reached to kill the Serbs. By his command in the village of Ragolje alone, more than 400 men, women and children had their throats cut. Fra Franjo Udovic, priest in the village of Koricane, organized and commanded the militia, which he personally led when it burned the property of the Serbian people in the villages of Koricane and Imljane. He personally divided cattle plundered from the victims among his Ustashi.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 02:15 PM EDT

  Article: How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II / The Case of Archbishop Stepinac / Published by the Embassy of the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia Washington, 1947/ Jesuit priest Dr. Dragutin Kamber, a sworn Ustashi before the collapse of Yugoslavia, was appointed Ustashi confidante for the District of Doboj. He ordered the killing of about 300 persons in Doboj, and had about 250 more court martialed, of whom most were shot.Priest Ivan Raguz was in close contact with prominent Ustashi in Stolac. Two days before the slaughter he declared there would be "scrambled eggs" and that he would take care of all Serbs. He boasted openly in the cafes that all questions were being solved by him jointly with the Ustashi, and urged the killings of all Serbs, including children, so that "even the seed of these beasts is not left."

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 02:13 PM EDT

  Article: How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II / The Case of Archbishop Stepinac / Published by the Embassy of the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia Washington, 1947/In the village of Tramosnica, priest Ante Klaric became the first Ustashi commissar, and personally led Ustashi units in attacks on Serbian villages. He organized the Ustashi militia and, according to witnesses, spoke from the pulpit as follows :"You are old women and you should put on skirts, you have not yet killed a single Serb. We have no weapons and no knives and we should forge them out of old scythes and sickles, so that you can cut the throats of Serbs whenever you see them."One practice of Klaric and the Ustashi in Serbian villages was to line up the Serbs in two rows, face to face, and then order them to slap one another's faces and insult and curse one another. In one instance he kept the victims locked in a school house for several days without food or water. Then before his eyes, the Ustashi beat them with gun butts and whips, and, by prior agreement, beat them all the harder the more Klaric asked them not to. Relics plundered from Serbian churches later were found in his home in most unbecoming places.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 02:08 PM EDT

  Article: How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II / The Case of Archbishop Stepinac / Published by the Embassy of the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia Washington, 1947/ Some Roman Catholic priests, especially Franciscans, who had become sworn members of the Ustashi, had taken an oath to fight with dagger and gun for the "triumph of Christ and Croatia." How some of these priests conducted themselves after Pavelic, in July, 1941, gave the signal that inaugurated the mass killings, may be illustrated by a few cases from the files of the Yugoslav State Commission for the Investigation of War Crimes. Out of hundreds of cases, mention is made here of only a few which are typical: Priest Bozo Simlesa in the village of Listani was one of the most active members of the Ustashi. He was entrusted with the post of chief in the District of Livno. During the slaughter of the Serbs in the county of Listani he told the people from the pulpit that the time had arrived to exterminate all Serbs living in Croatia. He personally organized the Ustashi militia and obtained arms for it. On July 27, 1941, he held a meeting in the village and when he was informed that all Serbian men had been murdered and that women and children were to be killed that night, he told them not to wait for the night, for 24 hours had already passed since the chief had issued his order that not a single Serb must be left alive in Croatia.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 02:06 PM EDT

  Article: How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II / The Case of Archbishop Stepinac / Published by the Embassy of the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia Washington, 1947/ None of this could have been done without the permission of their Bishops, and, since it was done, they should have been brought to the ecclesiastical court and unfrocked. Since this did not happen, then obviously the Bishops gave their consent, by acquiescence at least."Friars and nuns carried Ustashi knives in one hand and a cross and a prayer-book in the other. The province of Srem is covered with the leaflets of Bishop Aksamovic, which were printed in his own print shop at Djakovo. He calls upon the Serbs, through these leaflets, to save their lives and property, recommending the Catholic faith to them.. .. In our country not one Bishop has decried the fate of the innocent Christian Serbs who have suffered more than the Jews in Germany.... "I write you this ... to save my soul and I leave it to you to find a way to save your soul."

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 02:04 PM EDT

  Article: How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II / The Case of Archbishop Stepinac / Published by the Embassy of the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia Washington, 1947 /Throughout the world the deeds of these Catholic priests were known. Archbishop Stepinac of Zagreb also knew; it was under his jurisdiction that they took place; but never once did he voice a protest against these horrors. Nor were the priest criminals called to answer for their crimes throughout the life of the Independent State of Croatia. Not even when he received the protest sent him by Dr. Prvislav Grisogno, a Catholic Croat and former Minister in the Royal Yugoslav cabinet, did Archbishop Stepinac speak up. This letter, dated Belgrade, February 8, 1942, is quoted on pages 57 and 58 of Ally Betrayed, by David Martin, (Prentice Hall, New York, 1946, foreword by Rebecca West) where it reads in part:"In all these unprecedented crimes, worse than pagan, our Catholic Church has also participated in two ways. First, a large number of priests, clerics, friars and organized Catholic youth actively participated in all these crimes; but more terrible, even, Catholic priests became camp commanders and, as such, ordered or tolerated the horrible tortures, murders and massacres of a baptized people. One Catholic priest slit the throat of an Orthodox Serbian priest.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 02:01 PM EDT

  Article: How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II / The Case of Archbishop Stepinac / Published by the Embassy of the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia Washington, 1947 / When Hitler attacked the Kingdom of Yugoslavia on April 6, 1941, the Ustashi, including many Catholic priests who were among its members, directed active fighting in the rear of the regular Yugoslav army. This well-organized Fifth Column helped the German High Command in the conquest of Yugoslavia. After the defeat of the Yugoslav Army this combine, the Ustashi and fascist elements of the clergy, launched one of the most horrible massacres in recorded history. Of the two million Serbs who for centuries had lived peacefully among the Croats, hundreds of thousands were driven from their villages and towns and their property stolen. Hundreds of thousands of Serbs were tortured and slaughtered in and out of concentration camps, and the rest were "converted" by force to the Roman faith. Torture and death were also the lot of Croatians who refused to support the quisling cause, and of the Jews.The man under whose spiritual blessing and active support these monstrous crimes were committed was Aloysius Stepinac, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Zagreb. - Continued

• JuneAnnette | Sep 19, 2011, 01:59 PM EDT

  EDMICCA, As I have already shown, HATE / HATRED is very much in view in Roman Catholicism. I cannot imagine a more graphic example of a HATE CRIME than the mass murder of innocent men, women and children in Croatia carried out by Roman Catholic clerics in the early forties of the last century. The anti-CHRISTIAN spirit at work in the CONVERT or DIE campaign pursued by Roman Catholic priests and bishops is yet more compelling evidence that Roman Catholicism is not Christ's Church.***GOD'S WORD as it is found in EXODUS 20:13: “Thou shalt not kill.- Continued

• edmicca | Sep 17, 2011, 01:08 AM EDT

  Junie Moon's moon - will you marry me? It must take a lot of effort every day to find something to disagree with me about. As for me, I've said all I'm going to say. You hate Catholics, you hate priests, you hate the Church...I get your point. I have left the building.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 16, 2011, 09:54 AM EDT

  EDMICCA, final thoughts with respect to your comment directed to Abused.N.I. of Sep 13, 2011, 01:23 AM EDT where you write: “Abused...remember, Jesus loves the priest who supposedly abused you as much as he loves you. Have you forgiven him seventy times seven times today? No? Bad boy.”****Let me reiterate that your vain and shameless attempt to shift the burden of responsibilty to Abused.N.I., while absolving the ABUSER of any guilt and responsibility toward him is not consistent with what Christ is teaching in the passage of Scripture to which you have alluded, namely Matt. 18:21-22 & Luke 17:3-4. As can be readily seen Christ does not let the ABUSER off that easy!***The text in Luke 17:3-4 reads: “Take heed to yourselves: if thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.” ***Christ does not leave the ABUSER off the hook and / or give him a free pass as you would have us believe!***Take NOTE now to what AB Diarmuid Martin said recently . . . Source: America Magazine online / Article: Diarmuid Martin's Admission: No Remorse on Part of Most Abusers / Wednesday, April 06, 2011 / Author: James Martin, S.J.***EXCERPT: In a blunt lecture on Monday at Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wis., Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin made what to my mind isa stunning admission about the sexual abuse crisis in the church:With perhaps "two exceptions" he has "not encountered a real and unconditional admission of guilt and responsibility on the part of priest offenders" in his diocese. That is, the abusive priests in his diocese, with only a few exceptions, do not seem remorseful."

• JuneAnnette | Sep 15, 2011, 11:27 AM EDT

  The “church” of ROME is irreformable . . In his day Martin Luther witnessed firsthand the gross immorality, the unchecked vice, the corrupt practices, most notably, the “selling of indulgences”, and the unbridled abuse of power amongst the clergy, and like some today who remain in the RCC, had noble thoughts of reforming it from within. He soon discovered however that Rome was irreformable and broke his ties with them. The rest is history. Martin Luther is widely known as “Father of the Reformation” (1483-1546)***His timely words: “The Roman Catholics have, with great adroitness, drawn three walls round themselves, with which they have hitherto protected themselves, so that no one could reform them, whereby all Christendom has fallen terribly. Firstly, if pressed by the temporal power, they have affirmed and maintained that the temporal power has no jurisdiction over them, but, on the contrary, that the spiritual power is above the temporal. Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that none may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope.Thirdly, if they are threatened with a council, they pretend that no one may call a council but the Pope. Thus they have stolen our three rods and entrenched themselves behind these three walls, to act with all wickedness and malice, which we now witness.”***Take note of the last phrase which I now place in caps for emphasis: "TO ACT WITH ALL WICKEDNESS AND MALICE, WHICH WE NOW WITNESS."***How very applicable are the words of LUTHER in the present SCANDAL that continues to PLAGUE the R.C. "church"

• JuneAnnette | Sep 15, 2011, 10:59 AM EDT

  prior post continued . . ***By CLAIMING a right to sovereignly rule in both the civil and ecclesiastical arenas / spheres / realms / matters they render themselves virtually untouchable. This has led to the most egriegous and flagrant abuses of power recorded in the annals of history, most notably that which they unapologetically call the “Holy Inquisition”. From the beginning of the Papacy to the present time, it is estimated by reputable and trustworthy historians that tens of millions of people have been tortured and killed by Papal persecutors for the crime of believing God’s word in the Bible, rather than the dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. ***God's Word . . Matt. 10:26 “Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.”

• JuneAnnette | Sep 15, 2011, 10:58 AM EDT

  The global Roman Catholic Clergy Abuse SCANDAL brought to light in our day by the providence and mercy of God, in which the Roman Catholic hierarchy have consistently deferred to canon caw relegating it above civil law, reveals their arrogant contempt for the law of the land. The Bible gives them no license to make such an outrageous claim. Rather it was Christ Himself who said: “render therefore unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's” (Matt. 22:21) This command by our Lord is confirmed in Chapter 2 of the 1st epistle of Peter verse 13-14 where we read: “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for theLord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.” See also Rom. 13:1-3

• edmicca | Sep 15, 2011, 08:50 AM EDT

  The Inquisition was not an event. It was the name of an ecclesiastical institution, or department, of the Church. It was also called the Holy Office, Office being another word for Department, and had employees. In a broad manner of speaking, the Inquisition was the Dept of Homeland Security of its day. The 12 apostles were given one mission - to pass along Christ's teachings intact. From the beginning men came along who taught false gospels which threatened the salvation of souls. The Church rose to meet these challenges - later the Holy Office was created, the most important Office of the Church, because heresy was the most serious threat to people, on par with any crime. Did some inquisitors go overboard? Yes. But you don't tear down a Church for the sins of a few just as you don't tear down democracy because some misuse it. The Inquisition kept detailed records of its activities, and while there were lamentable exceptions to how things were supposed to run, it serves no good purpose to wildly exaggerate what took place. This misrepresentation began with the Protestant reformers in England.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 14, 2011, 10:22 PM EDT

  MORE on what the Roman Catholic “church” calls the “Holy Inquisition”***”From 1200 to 1500 the long series of Papal ordinances on the Inquisition, ever increasing in severity and cruelty, and their whole policy towards heresy, runs on without a break. It is a rigidly consistent system of legislation: every Pope confirms and improves upon the devices of his predecessor. All is directed to the one end, of completely uprooting every difference of belief... The Inquisition ... contradicted the simplest principles of Christian justice and love to our neighbor, and would have been rejected with universal horror in the ancient Church.”***Source: D J.H. Ignaz von Dollinger; The Pope and the Council (London, 1869)***edmicca, Jesus told Peter whom “your church” regards as your "first pope" to put up his sword, thereby rendering physical weapons in defense of the gospel completely forbidden. So, why don’t Catholics honor what Jesus told Peter, the "first pope"?***God's Word as it is found in Matt. 26:52: “Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish unto the sword.”

• edmicca | Sep 14, 2011, 06:35 PM EDT

  What - no outrage over PUBLIC school teacher and abuser Tulsie Singh and the NYC Dept of Education's handling of him? Read again my email below. OH, how silly of me!! You guys only whine about priests and the Church, not teachers and Depts of Education.

• edmicca | Sep 14, 2011, 06:26 PM EDT

  50 million? How bout 50 billion? What a dope.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 14, 2011, 03:23 PM EDT

  edmicca, More on the "HOLY INQUISITION" . . I'll take the respected historians' figures, which I have quoted below over yours any day!***edmicca, MORE on the Roman Catholic "church"'s HOLY INQUISITION***William Shaw Kerr quotes from Lord Acton, who was among the most learned of the English Roman Catholics, regarding the basic nature of the Inquisition. Lord Acton’s conviction was that, The Inquisition is peculiarly the weapon and peculiarly the work of the Popes. It stands out from all those things in which they co-operated, followed or assented as the distinctive feature of papal Rome. It was set up, renewed and perfected by a long series of acts emanating from the supreme authority in the Church. No other institution, no doctrine, no ceremony is so distinctly the individual creation of the Papacy, except the dispensing power. It is the principal thing with which the Papacy is identified, and by which it must be judged. The principle of the Inquisition is the Pope’s sovereign power over life and death. Whosoever disobeys him should be tried and tortured and burnt. If that cannot be done, formalities may be dispensed with, and the culprit may be killed like an outlaw. That is to say, the principle of the Inquisition is murderous, and a man’s opinion of the Papacy is regulated and determined by his opinion of religious assassination."***GOD'S WORD as it is found in EXODUS 20:13: “Thou shalt not kill.”***God graphically describes the bloodthirsty nature of the Roman Catholic "church" as being: "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (Rev. 17:6)

• Abused.N.I | Sep 14, 2011, 02:22 PM EDT

  No,'edmicca'I'm not a member of SNAP,Or someone who makes a career out of being a victim.You are A very sad person I'll tell you what I am,And what I want. I am not a victim,but A survivor,and like all survivors all over the world,I want the church to take responsibility for their lack of action against the abusers within the church,I want the church to bring these abusers to account.I want the church to ultimately take a stand for the abused,not the abusers.There should be no hidding place for abusers within the church. The problem now with the church is the denial and the cover-up to protect the bishops and other priests(and nuns) who turned a blind eye to the sufferings of the Abused children and let us make no mistake about it, it was pure Abuse.

• edmicca | Sep 14, 2011, 01:22 PM EDT

  Google "Tulsie Singh". Read the first thing that pops up, the NY Post article. See, Moonie, it ain't only the big bad Church that protects abusers. I expect you to park your carcass in front of the NYC Dept of Education and regale them with your rants.

• edmicca | Sep 14, 2011, 01:14 PM EDT

  June's Moon.....there weren't even 50 million people living in Europe at the time let alone 50 million accused of heresy let alone 50 million convicted let alone 50 million executed - 2% of those convicted were executed. All the forests in Europe wouldn't have enough logs for the fires.

• edmicca | Sep 14, 2011, 01:11 PM EDT

  Junie Moon...a little knowledge is dangerous...in your case, no knowledge is very dangerous. All the forests in Europe wouldn't have been enough to burn 50 million people. There weren't even 50 million people in Europe at the time, let alone 50 million accused of heresy, let alone 50 million convicted, let alone 50 million burned at the stake. Of those actually convicted of heresy, 2% were executed. As expected, your numbers are so exaggerated as to enter the guffaw zone. There were strict rules for how a trial was conducted and for what evidence was necessary for conviction. There were appeals processes for those convicted. Furthermore, the State also dealt with heretics since heresy was a State crime, a capital crime on par with murder. if people were executed for murder, which deprived another of life on earth, one would expect people to be executed for heresy which jeopardized where a person would spend eternity. Do you even know what the Inquisition was? It was the name of the Church office that investigated accusations of heresy. Today that office is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - CDF. As for Mr. Lecky, he obviosuly never heard of communism which in the 20th c. caused more human misery and death than all the conflicts in history combined. I didn't belittle Abused; I expressed full sympathy. I'll take his word that his claims are true, which is all we have, his word. As for you m'dear, follow your own advice. here's a tidbit you may be interested in. Anything to say? You're amusing. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/09/13/2011-09-13_former_teacher_busted_for_molesting_young_boy_for_more_than_two_years.html

• JuneAnnette | Sep 14, 2011, 12:12 PM EDT

  edmicca . . with respect to your remarks concerning the “Holy Inquisition” as it is referred to in Catholic circles, here are some facts you have conveniently overlooked. Even conservative historians claim that the Roman Catholic Church probably destroyed at least 50 million people over matters of religious conviction. We will quote here from several sources: "That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history. W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, Volume 2 , p. 40. "From the birth of popery to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors..." John Dowling, The History of Romanism , pp. 541-542***"Anyone who attempts to construe a personal view of God which conflicts with Church dogma must be burned without pity." - Pope Innocent III***edmicca, You're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about!

• JuneAnnette | Sep 14, 2011, 11:54 AM EDT

  edmicca, your most recent remarks to Abused.N.I. once again reveals the hardness of your heart and the same Christless spirit, devoid of compassion and sympathy for the pain and suffering he was subjected to by the depraved and sadistic priests of Rome. Your insulting tone and condescending attittde is most agreeable to the narcissistic and arrogant spirit exemplified by the so-called “princes of the church” you so ardently defend. First, you vainly attempt by your churlish remarks to absolve “your church” of guilt and responsibility by placing the onus on him to forgive and callously call into question the veracity of his testimony by sarcastically employing the word “supposedly” (Ref. Comment Posted by edmicca on Sep 13, 2011, 01:23 AM EDT***Then you belittle him with your derisive remarks by making light of his harrowing ordeal and attacking his manhood.(Ref. comment Posted by edmicca on Sep 13, 2011, 05:36 PM EDT)***The TRUTH is edmicca. . it takes a MAN to admit his WRONGDOING. It takes a MAN to take responsibility for his actions. MEN don't seek to justify their actions and evade punishment by appealing to canon law. It's called ACCOUNTABILITY! But amongst the hierarchy of the RCC, MEN are conspicuously missing and instead there are only bully boys in dresses!

• edmicca | Sep 14, 2011, 09:12 AM EDT

  Abused...you're beginning to sound like a member of SNAP who makes a career out of being a victim. I'm well aware and appalled that some priests and bishops did wrong. I'm also aware that the overwhelming number priests and bishops didn't do any wrong and remained faithful servants, a fact you and J.A. casually ignore. You indict the whole Church for the actions of a few. If you can twist my words to make them sound like I don't believe priests, etc, are capable of abuse, you're an idiot. In the 2,000 year history of Christianity, the Church has faced all sorts of problems from within and without and survived them all. The Church will survive this.As for the Inquisition, you don't know what you're talking about. The countries of Europe at that time were a combo of Church and State. Capital offenses such as murder were dealt with in the manner of the day. Heresy was a capital crime because it threatened the eternal salvation of the heretics and those who were swayed by them. Fewer than 2% of those brought before the Inquisition were executed. Do some reading, man, then talk.

• Abused.N.I | Sep 14, 2011, 08:24 AM EDT

  Again,JuneAnnette,thank you for your comments,It seems to me that no matter how many people try to make 'edmicca'open his eyes to the truth,he is still blinded in his views,and I feel sorry for him,trapped in his poor brain-washed world,where all priests,nuns and popes are all good people of God,who would never,ever,abuse or cause hurt to any child.I pray that God will soon open your blinded eyes. I really believe that you are the kind of person who would love to see the return of the Inquisition,where you could burn the likes of me,JuneAnnette and others,who speak out against the church of Rome,at the stake as Heretics.

• edmicca | Sep 13, 2011, 11:09 PM EDT

  Any priest who would be so insane to threaten someone with hell for talking certainly does not represent the Church. The only acceptable silence is a legal non-disclosure agreement in which case Abused's mother would have accepted payment in exchange for silence by both parties. This practice is common in divorce and other settlements today, and one that the legal profession advised the Church to enter into when dealing with victims who did not want to go public with their claims. If a victim doesn't wish to go public, a monetary settlement may be offered. You can't bring a priest to justice if the accuser doesn't cooperate which was often the case. I stand by what I said - the Church cannot force anyone to silence. Any clergymen who tries that should be immediately reported.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 13, 2011, 07:48 PM EDT

  edmicca, My prior comment (repeated for your benefit inasmuch as you evidently have a "thick clotted skull",) regarding Cardinal Sean Brady is corroborated by the comment Posted by Abused.N.I on Sep 13, 2011, 02:12 PM EDT below, which I again replicate for your benefit!***"My Mother in front of me,and at least ten others,on her death-bed(she died A horrible death from cancer)begged me to forgive her for standing by her church over me,she also said she was made at that time to sign,what they call='A vow of silence',And threatened with her soul spending eternity in hell if she told anyone about my abuse. I'm convinced that there are thousands of these=Vows of silence letters still held by the church today.And I challenge you, 'edmicca'to prove to me that these 'vows of silence'do not exist"

• JuneAnnette | Sep 13, 2011, 07:45 PM EDT

  edmicca, My prior comment (repeated for your benefit inasmuch as you evidently has a "thick clotted skull",) regarding Cardinal Sean Brady is corroborated by the comment Posted by Abused.N.I on Sep 13, 2011, 02:12 PM EDT below, which I again replicate for your benefit!***"My Mother in front of me,and at least ten others,on her death-bed(she died A horrible death from cancer)begged me to forgive her for standing by her church over me,she also said she was made at that time to sign,what they call='A vow of silence',And threatened with her soul spending eternity in hell if she told anyone about my abuse. I'm convinced that there are thousands of these=Vows of silence letters still held by the church today.And I challenge you, 'edmicca'to prove to me that these 'vows of silence'do not exist"

• JuneAnnette | Sep 13, 2011, 07:38 PM EDT

  edmicca, you're the one with the "thick clotted skull" and you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about when you say . ."The Church didn't swear anyone to silence. That's a bald-faced lie."***Article: Priest’s victims forced into vow of silence March 15, 2010 David Sharrock, Ireland Correspondent*** EXCERPTS: The leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland resisted calls for his resignation yesterday, despite admitting that he took part in meetings where the victims of a paedophile priest were forced to take a vow of silence. Cardinal Sean Brady, the Primate of All Ireland, has confirmed he was present at a closed canonical tribunal in 1975 when two child victims of Father Brendan Smyth were ordered to sign agreements under oath that they would not discuss what happened to them with anybody other than an approved priest.*** Mr O’Gorman, a survivor of clerical abuse, said it was obscene that the victims were required to sign oaths of secrecy and that it was unthinkable for Cardinal Brady to remain as head of the Church in Ireland. “Whatever his youth, experience or supposed innocence back in 1975, I do not find his defence of ‘I was following orders’ remotely satisfactory,” he said. “He believed that this out-of-control paedophile had abused children and he did nothing to report this crime to the police either then, or it would appear, at any point over the next 20 years, during which Smyth continued to rape and abuse in parishes across the world with near impunity. Instead he took part in a cover-up of Smyth’s crimes.” Source: Times Online – UK***YOU'RE THE LIAR EDMICCA!

• edmicca | Sep 13, 2011, 05:36 PM EDT

  No priest in his right mind would or could threaten anyone's soul for telling the truth. Anyone who did should have been immediately reported. Priests and people who post to Irish Central don't judge souls, God does. The only one who can condemn us to hell is ourselves. Any Catholic who has a smidgin of knowledge should know that. I took many a thumping at the hands of nuns, and like everyone else who felt the rod, you took it in stride, except for a few whiny butt boys who grew into whiny butt men. Overwhelmingly and thankfully whatever true abuses did occur are greatly a thing of the past. Data doesn't lie. Abused, you prove to me these vows of silence DO exist.

• Abused.N.I | Sep 13, 2011, 02:12 PM EDT

  JuneAnnette thank you so much for your very kind comments,they have really lifted me,unlike 'The thick clotted skull' of edmicca,and so many others like him.I will no longer waste my time or effort on him anymore.But one last word I would put to him in response to your transcript of my e-mail to you JuneAnnette. My Mother in front of me,and at least ten others,on her death-bed(she died A horrible death from cancer)begged me to forgive her for standing by her church over me,she also said she was made at that time to sign,what they call='A vow of silence',And threatened with her soul spending eternity in hell if she told anyone about my abuse. I'm convinced that there are thousands of these=Vows of silence letters still held by the church today.And I challenge you, 'edmicca'to prove to me that these 'vows of silence'do not exist.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 13, 2011, 02:06 PM EDT

  Edmicca, you would do well to reflect on the words of Thomas Patrick Doyle, RC priest and Clergy Abuse Victim's Advocate*** 27. In my experience with victims lasting 18 years, I have met thousands of victims who have voiced their conviction that priests took the place of Jesus Christ and therefore they would be condemned to hell if they exposed a priest. My experience has also revealed that many victims failed to come forward for many years because of their intense fear, yet the severe traumatic pain of their abuse not only remained but intensified. The oldest victim I have worked with is today 92. She only revealed the abuse, which happened when she was 12, at the age of 91, and admitted bitterly that she has suffered the consequences for all the intervening years. Please see my article, "Roman Catholic Clericalism, Religious Duress and Clergy Sexual Abuse." Pastoral Psychology 51 (2003) for detailed information on the legal and theological foundations for religious duress.***Source: Bishop Accountability / Article: Thomas Doyle's important affidavit puts the documents and events of Davenport in a national context / THE ROLE OF RELIGIOUS DURESS AND FEAR ON A VICTIM'S ABILITY TO DISCLOSE THE ABUSE

• JuneAnnette | Sep 13, 2011, 02:05 PM EDT

  edmicca, you would do well to reflect on the words of Thomas Patrick Doyle, RC priest and Clergy Abuse Victim's Advocate***27. In my experience with victims lasting 18 years, I have met thousands of victims who have voiced their conviction that priests took the place of Jesus Christ and therefore they would be condemned to hell if they exposed a priest. My experience has also revealed that many victims failed to come forward for many years because of their intense fear, yet the severe traumatic pain of their abuse not only remained but intensified. The oldest victim I have worked with is today 92. She only revealed the abuse, which happened when she was 12, at the age of 91, and admitted bitterly that she has suffered the consequences for all the intervening years. Please see my article, "Roman Catholic Clericalism, Religious Duress and Clergy Sexual Abuse." Pastoral Psychology 51 (2003) for detailed information on the legal and theological foundations for religious duress.***Source: BishopAccountability.org / Article: Thomas Doyle's important affidavit puts the documents and events of Davenport in a national context / THE ROLE OF RELIGIOUS DURESS AND FEAR ON A VICTIM'S ABILITY TO DISCLOSE THE ABUSE

• edmicca | Sep 13, 2011, 01:54 PM EDT

  Any priest whoever said anything about going to hell should've immediately been reported to his bishop. People who stood around like dumb sheep and did nothing were fools. Furthermore, you should stop lying. I never said seeking justice for victims is hateful - I said YOU were hateful, not because you talk of justice but because you don't practice it. You lie with hate in your throat about the nature, time frame, number, and context of the abuses. You compound your lies by what you intentionally omit re/abuse of children. It is you who do an injustice to victims by your falsehoods and slander which choke the life out of any truths that might be floating in your belly.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 13, 2011, 01:26 PM EDT

  edmicca, let me remind you that it is your depraved priests that threatened their VICTIMS with HELL if they spoke out publicly of their abuse by priests, as Abused.N.I. has so testified in his comment below, a portion of which I will now replicate for your benefit! It is these so-called “men of God” who will have to answer to God for their “hate crimes” if they do not repent of them before He comes to judge the quick & the dead!***“Transcript of e-mail sent to me***Hi June, This is what happened to me,When I was first abused at the age of nine(and told my mother)I was taken back to the Christian Brothers school by my mother and left outside an office,for what it seems hours,while different people went in and out,when my mother did come out,she just walked on by me,as if I wasn't there. She left in their hands,I was beaten by them,and told by my mother later when I went home,that it was my shame,and that I was never,ever,to tell anyone about it,for if I did(she was told this,in the office)She and the rest of the family,would burn in hell and be in damnation for ever,my soul,she was told,was lost to the devil,because I dared to lie about a man-of-god,who can do no wrong.”***Advocating for and seeking justice for VICTIMS of Clergy Abuse is not "hateful behaviour as you would have us believe!***In solidarity with the VICTIMS of Roman Catholic Clergy ABUSE, JuneAnnette

• JuneAnnette | Sep 13, 2011, 12:52 PM EDT

  edmicca, you're the one with the "thick clotted skull" and you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about when you say . ."The Church didn't swear anyone to silence. That's a bald-faced lie."***Article: Priest’s victims forced into vow of silence March 15, 2010 David Sharrock, Ireland Correspondent*** EXCERPTS: The leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland resisted calls for his resignation yesterday, despite admitting that he took part in meetings where the victims of a paedophile priest were forced to take a vow of silence. Cardinal Sean Brady, the Primate of All Ireland, has confirmed he was present at a closed canonical tribunal in 1975 when two child victims of Father Brendan Smyth were ordered to sign agreements under oath that they would not discuss what happened to them with anybody other than an approved priest.*** Mr O’Gorman, a survivor of clerical abuse, said it was obscene that the victims were required to sign oaths of secrecy and that it was unthinkable for Cardinal Brady to remain as head of the Church in Ireland. “Whatever his youth, experience or supposed innocence back in 1975, I do not find his defence of ‘I was following orders’ remotely satisfactory,” he said. “He believed that this out-of-control paedophile had abused children and he did nothing to report this crime to the police either then, or it would appear, at any point over the next 20 years, during which Smyth continued to rape and abuse in parishes across the world with near impunity. Instead he took part in a cover-up of Smyth’s crimes.” Source: Times Online – UK***YOU'RE THE LIAR EDMICCA!

• edmicca | Sep 13, 2011, 12:36 PM EDT

  JuneAnnette....for the record - most of the abuses ended 25 years ago and did not involve children or beatings or rape. They involved post-pubescent males and inappropriate touching. For the 1000th time, I'm not defending abuses on any level, just trying to make your thick clotted skull aware they didn't occur only in the Church. Going to jail isn't the same as going to hell. THAT'S the judgment I'm talking about, as my post was clear to all but you apparently. The Church didn't swear anyone to silence. That's a bald-faced lie. If I were you I'd be more concerned about your own hateful behavior when you stand in front of the Judgment Seat. All victims were always free to go to the civil authorities. God's justice is always tempered by his mercy. No sin is too big that it can't be wiped away. That's the message of the Cross. Ever heard ofthe Cross?

• JuneAnnette | Sep 13, 2011, 11:07 AM EDT

  edmicca wrote: "It is not ours to say how God will judge those who abused children."***One of your priests has a homily just for you edmicca . . ***Source: Irish Central / Article: Nobody buying what Catholic Church defenders selling - Fr. Tim / EXCERPT: “My friends:The Catholic Church's "defenders of the fake" have begun their expected counterattack to those pesky critics who still don't believe -- despite Pope Benedict sending them a letter -- that the Church's leadership (if that's the right word) is serious about putting pedophile priests behind bars along with the conspiratorial clergy who covered up their heinous crimes. Terrible, unspeakable crimes have been committed, with God's most-innocent the helpless victims. They were abused, beaten or raped by a clergy entrusted with their care. Almost as bad, their crimes were routinely covered up by the Church hierarchy -- perhaps even by Benedict -- and the perpetrators were left to prey on others. Church officials swore victims to secrecy and blamed them for their own abuse in acts of psychological torture. The Church used its self-made throne in society to hold police and political leaders at bay.Until now, thank God.The day of reckoning has arrived at last, and Our Heavenly Father has opened the dark skies to let His Light pour in. No one can escape God's Final Judgment, and let us pray that those who abused His Dear Children by vile act or vile cover-up, will not escape earthly judgment as well. God bless you all!-- Father Tim”

• JuneAnnette | Sep 13, 2011, 11:04 AM EDT

  edmicca, your comments to Abused.N.I. are shamelss to say the least! Vengeance is not to be confused with JUSTICE. Those who break the law, whether they wear a collar or not must accept the consequences of their actions. The thief on the cross acknowledged he was receiving the JUST DESSERT for his crime when he said: "And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds:" (Luke 23:41) His confession of his sins to Christ assured him that he was forgiven and would be with the Lord in Paradise. But even as the thief on the cross received the just punishment for his crime, namely death by crucifixion, and did not seek to escape that punishment proscribed by the law of the land, so it is with those who break the laws of the land today. They must expect to face the consequences of their actions, and not seek to evade the punishment by appealing to canon law to justify their actions and / or insulate themselves against the laws of the land. No one is above the law!

• edmicca | Sep 13, 2011, 11:02 AM EDT

  SNAP, the Survivors Network for those Abused by Priests, assisted by the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR), has petitioned the International Criminal Court (ICC) to prosecute Pope Benedict XVI for allegedly covering up "crimes against humanity of rape and other sexual violence committed around the world." CCR attorney Pam Spees claims that "Crimes against tens of thousands of victims, most of them children, are being covered up by officials at the highest level of the Vatican." SNAP does not exist to protect children; rather, its goal is to smear the Catholic Church. That it would team up with the most radical left-wing legal organization in the nation, CCR, is hardly surprising. After all, never once has CCR bothered to protest the incredible assault on the due process rights of priests over the last decade. Most cases of molestation did not involve children, and they did not involve rape. The most common victim was a post-pubescent male victimized by homosexuals, the most common offense being "inappropriate touching." The figures being bandied about are nothing more than a wild guess provided by the Church's critics; they bear no relationship to reality. How do we know? Because when hard data are available on these matters, the projections are proven wholly inaccurate. Moreover, it is a lie to say that sexual abuse is being covered up at the highest levels of the Vatican. The homosexual scandal took place during the sexual revolution, and most of the offenses ended a quarter-century ago. To charge otherwise is scurrilous. The Holy See is not a member of the ICC, making it difficult to prosecute. Nonetheless, the Catholic League will contact the ICC today, providing documentation of our own that demonstrates how partisan this complaint really is.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 13, 2011, 10:41 AM EDT

  edmicca, one of your priests has a word for you and those of your ilk***Nobody buying what Catholic Church defenders selling - Fr. Tim / Excerpt “My friends:The Catholic Church's "defenders of the fake" have begun their expected counterattack to those pesky critics who still don't believe -- despite Pope Benedict sending them a letter -- that the Church's leadership (if that's the right word) is serious about putting pedophile priests behind bars along with the conspiratorial clergy who covered up their heinous crimes.Terrible, unspeakable crimes have been committed, with God's most-innocent the helpless victims. They were abused, beaten or raped by a clergy entrusted with their care. Almost as bad, their crimes were routinely covered up by the Church hierarchy -- perhaps even by Benedict -- and the perpetrators were left to prey on others. Church officials swore victims to secrecy and blamed them for their own abuse in acts of psychological torture. The Church used its self-made throne in society to hold police and political leaders at bay.Until now, thank God.The day of reckoning has arrived at last, and Our Heavenly Father has opened the dark skies to let His Light pour in. No one can escape God's Final Judgment, and let us pray that those who abused His Dear Children by vile act or vile cover-up, will not escape earthly judgment as well. God bless you all!-- Father Tim”***Entire article can be read here: http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/father_tim....***He has not blogged recently ? ? ? but you can let him know your thoughts here: http://twitter.com/Father_Tim / Source: Irish Central***GOD'S WORD . . an admonition to the CHURCH: "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." (1 Cor. 11:31)

• edmicca | Sep 13, 2011, 10:27 AM EDT

  Abused....and if you've read my posts you'll note that I said priests abusing the young is worse than despicable. I singled you out specifically. I've never gone easy on priests. But I'm also aware that God's forgiveness is open to all. The thief on the cross went straight to heaven. The prodigal son, woman at the well, woman caught in adultery, the tax collector were all forgiven. It is not ours to say how God will judge those who abused children. And it's definitely not Christian to gloat over the prospect that one day these guys will get theirs. Judge as you would like to be judged. No one's saying any of this is easy. I asked for fair play...we have to be concerned about ALL abuses, not just what priests did. Also, when some who post here say the Church has done nothing, that thousands of bishops are involved, up to an including the Pope, etc etc etc, they are lying, not to mention they offer nothing in the way of fixing things. For that I've been pilloried. Defending the Church doesn't mean covering up wrongs. It's saying that despite any wrongs done by members of the Church, the Church itself is a divine institution ordained by Christ himself that will last until the end of time and whose mission is to preach, teach, interpret and defend the word of God. So even in time of scandal, it is our duty to do our part as members of the Body of Christ to defend the Church in order that it complete its mission. To take an eye-for-an-eye approach and try to bring down the Church makes us no better than those who've offended us, and for that we ourselves will have some explaining to do on judgment day when we have to answer for our own sins, for the times we ignored God's call to love our neighbor as ourselves and to love our enemies. Sorry for your pain....... "There are many kinds of almsgiving that help us obtain pardon for our sins, but none is greater than that by which we forgive from our heart a sin that someone committed against us" - St. Augustine.

• Abused.N.I | Sep 13, 2011, 05:35 AM EDT

  'edmicca'You ask if I've forgiven this man,my answer is-yes,but I will,never,ever forget what he did to me and others.And when,like us all he stands in front of God in the judgement day he will pay for what he has done to us. Do you know what its like for one moment to be abused?it lives with you day in and day out,and will continue for the rest of your life.That is what this man,and thousands like him,have left victims like me. What about you 'edmicca'=Where do you stand in this abuse issue?You've never once spoke-up for any abused person,instead,you've defended your church with a vengeance.How far are you going to go to defend it before you realise the truth,that it puts the abusers first before the abused.

• Abused.N.I | Sep 13, 2011, 05:07 AM EDT

  'edmicca'What do you mean by your comment=supposedly abused me,do you think for one moment I would make this all up,I have forever the scars,physically and mentally to remind me what he did too me.And if you're taken the time to read my comment,you will see it was a Christian Brother who abused me not a priest(there is a difference)And he died in the late 80's,just weeks before up to 20 people like me,were to get him arrested.I've a copy of all their statements. Are you going to say-'They also were supposedly raped,tortured,tormented and their childhood taken away by this man.

• edmicca | Sep 13, 2011, 01:23 AM EDT

  Abused...remember, Jesus loves the priest who supposedly abused you as much as he loves you. Have you forgiven him seventy times seven times today? No? Bad boy.

• eiriamach | Sep 12, 2011, 04:21 PM EDT

  Again, edmicca, it does not matter, it's totally irrelevant, how "abuses by priests fit into the overall picture of abuse of the young." Your obsession with deflecting attention away from the issue, "Disgraceful coverup by Vatican," is eloquent testimony to your blunted conscience. Obviously you cannot face the evil done by your Church. You insist that anyone who mentions it first recount other evils done by others everywhere. There will be no reform until Roman Catholics, all up and down the 'hierarchy,' can face the truth, FEEL the suffering of victims, and take a share of responsibility for it. Yes, every Catholic who has ever dropped a coin in a collection plate shares responsibility for supporting the ongoing coverup. Yes, it's still ongoing and likely to continue. As long as canon law privileges the "good name" of accused priests accused above the legitimate rights of victims, there will be no change in what those with privilege in the Church try to get away with. So prepare to keep tossing out red herrings (fallacies of logic) for the rest of your life. As long as you cannot deal with the crimes on their own terms, you are an apologist for evil. That perennial "But" brings you down to the level of the offenders: "Were some past actions egregious? Yes. But...." Like JuneAnnette, I applaud the victims' courage. The defenders of the indefensible with their illogical evasions could take a powerful lesson from the victims.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 12, 2011, 12:13 PM EDT

  Abused.N.I. . . edmicca's remarks are typical of those who blindly defend their "church", despite the global catalogue of clergy abuse atrocities that testify against them! He is an unrelenting apologist for the RCC and if he had the chance he would undoubtedly . . like the old women in the chapel . . spit in your face. It is the Roman Catholic "church" who NOW must own the SHAME and suffer the well-deserved CONTEMPT presently being heaped upon them by the worldwide community for their ABOMINATIONS, which in God's Divine providence and mercy have come to light in our day! edmicca, unlike the Good Samaritan, who came to the aid of the man who fell among thieves, (and those who have had their innocence and virtue stolen from men who sexually assaulted them have likewise fallen prey to thieves) has followed instead the example of the priest and the Levite who looked the other way. His blind loyalty to what can only be regarded as a spiritually and morally bankrupt institution beggars belief, while his indifference to the plight and just cause of the victims reveals the shallowness of his religion.***In Christian love & solidarity with the VICTIMS of ROMAN CATHOLIC CLERGY ABUSE, JuneAnnette

• JuneAnnette | Sep 12, 2011, 12:11 PM EDT

  Abused.N.I. . . your uncommon courage in sharing the harrowing experiences of your childhood online is to be commended and I hope will inspire other VICTIMS to do likewise. I thought your comments were forceful, passionate and truthful, and exactly the response that edmicca's insensitive and callous remarks demanded. His remarks were devoid of Christian compassion and love and altogether inconsistent with the Christian spirit of brotherly love embraced in that which Christ said was the 2nd greatest commandment, namely, “Thou shalt love they neighbour as thyself.” (Matt. 22:39)

• wizardofoz | Sep 12, 2011, 10:12 AM EDT

  testing 123

• edmicca | Sep 12, 2011, 09:05 AM EDT

  Abused.....Read my posts. I've said it over and over that what some priests did was horrendous. Contrary to what you say, the Church has taken action, more action than any other organization, certainly more than what the public school systems across the land have done to members of its own ranks who've abused children. Go to www.usccb.org or any diocesan homepage and see what they're doing. If you condemn the Church, then condemn the public school system too - the abuses by teachers outnumber abuses by priests 100 to 1.

• Abused.N.I | Sep 12, 2011, 06:01 AM EDT

  Another thing 'edmicca',do you know what its like to be disowened?,well I can tell you first hand what's its like. My whole family(And there is 11 of us)won't even speak to me or my wife and kids,because of my speaking out about my abuse and the lack of action from the church. I've had 70 to 80 year-old women,who belonged to the chapel that I went too,spit in my face for bringing my abuse to light and condemning the church for not taken action against these evil abusers within it. And,'NO'This did not happen 40 years ago,this was only last week.This is how far some people within the church will go to defend it. What about you 'edmicca'How far will you go to defend it?.

• Abused.N.I | Sep 12, 2011, 05:30 AM EDT

  What are you trying to say'edmicca',that priests and others who belong to the church,no longer abuse children?That they have suddenly became'holy than thou'.I don't know who pulling your strings(but I can make a guess)What you have stated in you last comment is an insult too all of us who have been abused by this church.And it don't matter if it was,40,30,20 or 10 years ago that the abuse happened,the fact is the church did nothing,and still does nothing to stop it from happening again. How many of these evil abusers have the church disowened?.How many of these evil abusers have the church handed over to the police,for action to be taken against them?.

• edmicca | Sep 11, 2011, 09:43 PM EDT

  The discussion isn't whether some priests did horrendous things. That we're agreed on. it's where do abuses by priests fit into the overall picture of abuse of the young. Priests occupy a small slice of that pie with the rest comprised of clergy of other religions, public school teachers and, most of all, relatives of the victims. I challenge anyone to name any organization that is currently doing more to aid victims of abuse, set up standards to prevent future abuses, and deal with those accused of abuse than the Catholic Church. Were some past actions egregious? Yes. But you can't discuss the scandals by singling out references from 30 and more years ago while ignoring what' taking place now.

• Abused.N.I | Sep 11, 2011, 02:56 PM EDT

  Oh and just in case,some of you have not worked it out yet,my real name is Hugh Blair,I'm from Northern Ireland,And was abused by the Christian Brother at the age of nine.And I'm not afraid to shout it from the roof-tops about what the church did to me and thousands of others like me.

• Abused.N.I | Sep 11, 2011, 02:47 PM EDT

  The question I would like to ask,is=How many people within the catholic church really want to see change?. How people people within the church would really care.? How many would be willing to stand up to these so-called-men-of god.? I listened and tried to live by their teachings,even after the abuse.but that stopped one day after I started to look into their teachings(not a good thing for a catholic person to do)When I told a priest(Who I thought was a friend,A father-like person) about the falsehoods that I found within it,he went mad.he went on to tell me that the lay-person within the church would not know the real meanings of god's words,they are only for the men-of-god(the priest,christian brothers,nuns etc,etc)who are choosen by God to do his work.When I further went on to tell about my abuse at the age of nine,this priest told me(and the words are branded within me)"GOD SHOWS HIS LOVE IN VARIOUS WAYS,AND BECAUSE I REJECTED THIS MAN OF GOD'S LOVE,I WAS IN FACT REJECTING GOD'S LOVE".That is when I finally realised the truth about this church(that is amost 40 years how,and its seems the church will never change until they take firm action against the evil ones with it,and stop brain-washing the good ones within it.

• Abused.N.I | Sep 11, 2011, 02:40 PM EDT

  Also some of you comment here about bishops,not being indicted for a crime, let alone tried or sent to jail.But let me tell you all this.'That is all to change,and very soon,more and more victims are coming forward,We are no longer afraid of your lies of hell and damnation for speaking out the truth of what you and your church did to us.Fortunately, times are changing and the vatican's foul grip on Ireland is being loosened.Its time for the church to realise that the tsunami of Child abuse is on its way,and the church will be swept away in its path,unless it takes a stand against these child Abusers within its church,stop protecting them,and throw them out of the church. As A former Roman Catholic,there is One question I would put to the Roman catholic church,and to those who have posted comments here.="Do you stand up for the rights of the Abused","Or the Abuser".

• Abused.N.I | Sep 11, 2011, 02:17 PM EDT

  I'm trying to move on the best that I can,but at times its very hard. At this time, my daily life is like,A see-saw, One moment,I'm up at the top,the next right down at the bottom, it really gets to me at times,anything can just trigger this See-Saw of mine. I feel so stupid at times and really angerly with myself. Like last week(I've a one and ahalf year old Grandchild)well the other Granny got her a blackboard and called me over and handed me a piece of white chalk,When I touched it,it was as if she handed me a red-hot poker,I dopped it and ran with tears in my eyes outside. This triggered a major memory for me. When I was abused by my christian Brother teacher(as was a lot of boys)He used to tell each of us to go and get some white chalk from the storeroom and then he would follow us in and then abuse us. I thought I had hidden this away,but it just seemed as if it was just happening here and now,I feel so ashamed for letting other people see me this way.

• Abused.N.I | Sep 11, 2011, 02:13 PM EDT

  I remember my first day at the Christian Brothers school,I was smacked with a sally-rod(These were long-cane-like sticks,about 4-5 feet in length)Then a few months later these so-called men of God,hammered six-inch nails into the back of my hand while they were rapeing me,and saying,"now feel the pain that Jesus went though because of sinners like you".Then they rammed a crucifix up my back passage telling me-"You've just been F***** by jesus and laughing when they did that". That was over 40 years ago.I also live about 12 miles from Belfast(where my abuse took place)I've tried to go there several times,each time I'm physically sick with severe panic attacks.I don't think I'll ever go back there.

• Abused.N.I | Sep 11, 2011, 02:03 PM EDT

  Thank you,JuneAnnette for being brave enough for standing up for me and other abused people all over the world. To the others here who stick-up for their church and doubt the truth that I say about their church and the abuse that I,and others endured by the hands of this evil church,All I can say is='Shame on the lot of you'.Do you all,for one moment,know what's it is like to be abused,how it affects not only your childhood,but your whole life through. These so-called-evil-men-of-god took away my sweet innocence,they took away the spark of my childhood.But they will never,ever stop me from telling the whole world what they did to all of us abused people.I've even told my children to carry on the fight if anything ever happened to me.This is my way of fighting back(I'm sure its the same with many other people who have been abused,battered and scarred,mentally and physically by these evil monsters.)We will all show the whole world what they did to us.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 11, 2011, 11:28 AM EDT

  The personal testimony of Hugh Blair, a victim of RC Clergy Abuse***Transcript of e-mail sent to me***Hi June, This is what happened to me,When I was first abused at the age of nine(and told my mother)I was taken back to the Christian Brothers school by my mother and left outside an office,for what it seems hours,while different people went in and out,when my mother did come out,she just walked on by me,as if I wasn't there. She left in their hands,I was beaten by them,and told by my mother later when I went home,that it was my shame,and that I was never,ever,to tell anyone about it,for if I did(she was told this,in the office)She and the rest of the family,would burn in hell and be in damnation for ever,my soul,she was told,was lost to the devil,because I dared to lie about a man-of-god,who can do no wrong.My mother told me all this on her death-bed 15 years ago.The sad thing is,that she went to her grave,still believing these lies)My brother's and Sister's(there is 11 of us)also believed what my mother had been told by the church,that it was my shame. It tore my family apart.I now know June that my Mother was just a victim of the church as I was,but all through my lifetime it was hard,believing my mother and the rest of my family didn't believe me,even today,my brothers and sisters are divided in if I'm telling the truth about my abuse.***Hugh.

• edmicca | Sep 11, 2011, 10:49 AM EDT

  http://www.ncregister.com/blog/matthew-archbold/the-anti-catholics-guide-to-catholic-comboxes

• edmicca | Sep 10, 2011, 11:57 PM EDT

  That's pure nonsense, the Church threatening someone with excommunication and hellfire for telling that he was abused. Your ignorance of Church practices is staggering. We're ALL called to be images of Christ, not just the clergy. You think it matters to an abused person if his abuser was a priest or a teacher? Through their unions and school administrations, public school teachers accused of abuse are treated to a different standard than Catholic priests. Just two examples: there is a call for lifting the statute of limitations on abuse cases but ONLY for Catholic priests. Catholic priests accused of abuse are immediately removed from their posts and preistly functions. Not so teachers. They are allowed to stay. That's just two example of the inequitable treatment. As for bishops, name a SINGLE ONE who was indicted for a crime, let alone tried or sent to jail? You toss around names as if they're guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors, yet NO ONE'S charged them with anything. You and McNamara's one-note Band still refuse to acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of abuses were committed by people who weren't priests. Don't give me the whiney malarkey that, well, priests should've known better. You avoid it like the plague to save face. Your child and every child stands a MUCH better chance of being abused by his Uncle Lenny or his math teacher than he does by his local clergymen. Take your head out of your bigotry and read the facts and quit making a painted-into-a-corner fool out of yourself with your relentless and vile anti-Catholic bigotry that would offend Christ himself who sought to bring all sinners back to the fold through mercy, reconciliation, and love, not the hatred you spew.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 10, 2011, 12:03 PM EDT

  edmicca, As I have already pointed out, the policy of intimidation employed by the Roman Catholic “spiritual rulers” is unique to your “church”. Telling a raped little child and his parents that if they tell anyone what the priest did they will be excommunicated and, by implication, go to HELL, is the perfect weapon for deterring them from reporting these crimes to the civil authorities. As McNamara31 has already pointed out, public school teachers do not claim to be “Christ's representatives on earth”, nor do they hide behind a clerical collar as means to perpetrate their perversions against little children as the pedophile Roman Catholic clergy most certainly have done in many thousands of reported cases. And where and when did those associated with the secular school system ever conspire on an international scale to protect pedophile teachers, let alone transfer them, thus allowing them to continue to prey on children, as the Roman Catholic Church is proven in court to have done? The issue is not only the sex crimes against children, but the policies of a religious institution that has not only shielded these pedophile sex criminals, but allowed them to continue. Witness to this is the high profile cases of countless bishops and archbishops, including cardinals Law and Mahoney. Secular education authorities have never done what the Roman Catholic Church has done in protecting such dangerous villains, nor, being cognizant of who and what they are, allowing them to continue. Only the Church of Rome is repeatedly proven in court to be guilty of that magnitude of evil.

• McNamara31 | Sep 10, 2011, 09:55 AM EDT

  Edmicca...It was "decades" of abuse and cover up by the church who’s mission is to spread Christ's message on earth. You cannot compare a religious organization of that stature to any other organization. That's why it was not only crime but the most grievous of sins by all involved. And one thing is certain just as you and I will stand before God and be judged for our actions so will the leaders of the church and the criminals who abused the most fragile of all in society.

• edmicca | Sep 09, 2011, 11:03 PM EDT

  Actual abuses, not allegations, committed by homosexuals outnumber abuses committed by pedophiles better than 4 to 1. Actual cases committed by public school teachers outnumber abuses committed by priests better than 100 to 1. Accused public school teachers are far more protected by union rules from scrutiny by the press and civil authorities than Catholic clergy are. In so many ways the playing field is more uneven for priests than for any other class of perpetrators. Once again the lot of you is ignoring these crimes, choosing instead to focus on the smallest group of perpetrators - Catholic priests. No one's denying, least not me, that some priests committed horrendous atrocities. But so did many others, those who comprise the majority of abusers, the ones you refuse to discuss.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 09, 2011, 12:40 PM EDT

  Do tell us edmicca if this kind of INTIMIDATION exists in cases of sexual abuse in public schools?RELATED . . Source: Irish Central / Article: Child abuse monster Father Brendan Smyth ruined my life / February 10, 2010 / EXCERPT: In 1968, McGonigle said Smyth was caught molesting children in her parish and sent to Purdysburn Mental Hospital in Northern Ireland for treatment.After his time was served in Ireland, Smyth was allowed to return to Rhode Island, said McGonigle.During the abuse, McGonigle knew nothing but fear. Smyth told her she would "end up like the body in the woods" if she ever told a soul about what he was doing to her.“I took that as a real death threat and was terrified and confused and very young,” she says.McGonigle also witnessed Smyth molesting her sister. They had a bedroom with a door directly to the outside that he could enter.Smyth’s evil antics didn’t stop at the McGonigle sisters either. Their mother also spent time in a mental institution.According to McGonigle’s childhood neighbor who she located after 36 years, in 1968 her mother caught “Smyth sodomizing a little boy behind the stone wall and she shouted, ‘What are you doing to that little boy.’“Smyth charged at her and yelled, ‘Get back in the house this is church business,’” McGonigle said.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 09, 2011, 12:40 PM EDT

  Do tell us edmicca if this kind of INTIMIDATION exists in cases of sexual abuse in public schools?***RELATED . . Source: Irish Central / Article: Child abuse monster Father Brendan Smyth ruined my life / February 10, 2010 / EXCERPT: Helen McGonigle, 48, was just six years old when Father Brendan Smyth, a notorious sex offender from Co. Cavan, first abused her.McGonigle, whose maternal grandparents were from Co. Kerry, was living with her family in East Greenwich, Rhode Island when her childhood was ripped apart at the seams.Like any good Catholic family of their time, the church and clergy were to be highly respected. Helen was taught to obey church teachings and respect church leaders . . . including the new parish priest, Smyth.Helen wasn’t the only sister to encounter Smyth’s evil ways. The Cavan priest also sexually abused her older sister Kathleen.In the past few years, both Kathleen, 48, and her brother Gerard, 53, died of drug overdoses. McGonigle claims it was the abuse Kathleen suffered at the hands of Smyth that made her dependent on antidepressants.

• McNamara31 | Sep 09, 2011, 11:08 AM EDT

  National Catholic Reporter "According to the 2004 study by the John Jay School of Criminal Justice commissioned by the U.S. bishops, nearly half of the cases of abuse by clergy in the United States involve victims ages 12 or younger, and about 20 percent of the victims were girls. Add 13- and 14-year-olds and 73.4 percent of the clergy molesters and rapists are accounted for. Per NCR: Nearly half of the victims were sixth-graders or younger, while three-quarters were junior high age or younger." Any parent knows this should have never occurred and never have been covered up for decades. Reports, as early as 1985 were delivered to then Pope John Paul by the Canon Lawyer Thomas Doyle who had been sent by the Vatican to analyze the abuse situation. No one can rewrite what has occurred in our church and true healing will only start with acceptance of those facts and accountability for those actions and inaction. In any other group or company these individuals would have been behind bars long ago. Should we expect less from the Roman Catholic Church? The world has been waiting for one voice to stand and speak truth to the Vatican. Edna Kenny was that voice.

• edmicca | Sep 09, 2011, 09:46 AM EDT

  To All....I've stated numerous times that abuses committed by priests and bishops are a true scandal and must be dealt with by the Church and by civil authorities if that applies. Yet you continue to say I'm unsympathetic to the victims. Based on what can you say that? My point is simple: the overwhelming majority of abuses in the US and Ireland and every other country were not committed by Catholic clergy - they were committed by others. This doesn't let priests off the hook - one priest committing one abuse is one too many. But one is forced to wonder why those who claim to be so concerned about the abuse of the young choose to ignore the vast majority of cases and focus only on one group, the Catholic Church. That's like saying I'm against racial discrimination in Kansas City but I don't want to talk about discrimination in any other place. Allegations are just that - allegations. We should bear that in mind when we are tempted to hang the alleged perpetrators. William Donohue's months old piece in the NY Times started out by acknowledging the damage wrought by the scandals. He didn't sidestep any responsibility the Church bore on the matter. All he asked for was that the NY Times and other media outlets report facts, all the facts, and not fabricate false conclusions based on half-truths and some outright lies. There's nothing Goebbels-like in asking for fair and honest reporting. If anything, it's the Times that has spun the scandals and misstated the truth. If anyone is interested, he can contact the Catholic League and ask for Mr. Donohue's NY Times article and judge it for himself. Over and out.

• eiriamach | Sep 09, 2011, 09:06 AM EDT

  edmicca, why can't you see that your reasoning is illogical? Why are you blind to the irrelevance of the point you keep harping on? Your kind of opacity is the hallmark of an ideologue, one who mindlessly, irrationally, clings to loyalties. It is simply irrelevant that OTHER religions and other institutions also have had cases of sexual abuse of minors. IN NO WAY does evil elsewhere justify or diminish evil among some Roman Catholic priests. Your harping on the others who also abuse is a symptom, I think, of a closed mind. The fact that a critic of RCC abuse does not invoke the "larger context of sexual abuse" does NOT make her criticism "selective finger pointing." Are we obligated to say "Evil is in every part of the world" whenever we focus on evil in any one corner (RCC is in many corners, actually) of the globe? What difference would that make? It can never dilute the evil that we focus upon at any one time. And since people cannot undertake reform except piece by piece, here and there, as the need arises, it is a mere distraction, a red herring, to insist that we look at ALL the evil whenever we find any particular instance. Google the logical fallacy of 'tu quoque,' study examples, and perhaps you will begin to think more logically.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 09, 2011, 12:48 AM EDT

  McNamara31, I think edmicca is a protege of Wm. Donahue**Article: 'The Spinmeister' An opinion on Straight talk about the Catholic Church by William Donohue / May, 2011 / Another EXCERPT: Who could possibly deny the brilliance of framing his argument as a dalliance among priests? A mere touch, a palpable touch nevertheless. “Minimization of the act” is the operative mandate. The acts of raping, sodomizing and molesting minors are considered felony crimes in most countries, Donohue never goes there. He avoids the criminal aspect like the plague for it would not do well to have anyone associate the Catholic Church with criminal activity or see the words criminal priest in a sentence. . . . Donohue utilizes his command of language to justify the unjustifiable acts of priests who abused children and the hierarchy who covered up these acts. He has the traits of a lap dog and a pit bull: blind allegiance to his church and the tenacity to never let go. Bringing in teachers and other organizations says to the public: yes, we have a few problems, but there are other groups such as the schools, other religions, etc that have problems too. “Its not only our problem” is another minimization tactic that is hard to rebuff. To his credit, Donohue cleverly avoids the global scale of Roman Catholic Clergy Abuse because it serves no purpose to let people know that there are credibly abused priests in over thirty countries around the world. Schools aren’t global and don’t move priests, bishops and cardinals around the world at will so Donohue localizes the issue to minimize it.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 09, 2011, 12:47 AM EDT

  McNamara31, I think edmicca is a protege of Wm. Donahue**Article: 'The Spinmeister' An opinion on Straight talk about the Catholic Church by William Donohue / May, 2011 / EXCERPT:Mr. Donohue recently published a brilliant PR piece in the form of a paid advertisement in the NY Times. This is right out of Goebbels’ playbook, “Goebbels’ Principles of Propaganda” Number 6: “To be perceived, propaganda must evoke the interest of an audience and must be transmitted through an attention-getting communications medium.” thus the paid advertisement in the NY Times.Consider the outlandish proposition that the victims are not children! In this case Mr. Donohue makes a blanket statement that would make both Goebbels and Squealer turn green with envy. “let’s get it straight—they weren’t children and they weren’t raped” This statement is made with authority.The spinmeister speaks as if he is the first and last word on what constitutes a child; speaking from authority is a benchmark of a great spin doctor. Without saying what they were, he implies that the abused weren’t children. Notice how the propaganda leaves out ages. The readers say to themselves well if they weren’t children, they must have been older. Does older mean its okay? Does it make a difference if a child was ten, thirteen or fifteen when they were assaulted by their priest? Though the former may be termed a child and the latter an adolescent among those who utilize psychobabble (Spinmeisters) to make the act more palatable to their audience, does the rape, sodomization or molestation make the crime any less heinous? A good propagandist knows it does and employs the tactic every chance they get.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 09, 2011, 12:34 AM EDT

  The source for my most recent comment is: 'BishopAccountability.org'. The sordid details regarding the "not so HOLY "princes of the church" named below can be accessed there! These are the ones who would have you believe they are "holier than thou", and who in sharp contradiction to Jesus Christ, who had no place to lay his head, live in the lap of luxury, and unlike Christ, who came to serve, are waited upon hand and foot by the nuns!

• JuneAnnette | Sep 09, 2011, 12:26 AM EDT

  The following list includes 22 U.S. bishops who have been publicly accused of sexually abusing minors. We have also provided a preliminary list of 9 bishops accused of sexual misconduct in other countries. Arzube, Brown, Dudley,Dupré, Ferrario, Gelineau, Harrington, Hart, Hubbard, O'Connell, Rausch, Rueger, Ryan, Sanchez, Skylstad, Soens, James S. Sullivan, Joseph V. Sullivan, Symons, Weldon, Williams, Ziemann***Preliminary List International Cases of Bishops Accused of Sexual Misconduct• Archbishop Richard A. Burke, S.P.S. (Ireland and Nigeria)• Cardinal Hans H. Groër, O.S.B. (Austria)• Bishop Raymond J. Lahey (Canada) • Bishop John Magee, S.P.S. (Ireland)• Bishop Georg Müller, SS.CC. (Norway)• Bishop Hubert P. O’Connor, O.M.I. (Canada)• Archbishop Juliusz Paetz (Poland) • Archbishop Edgardo G. Storni (Argentina)• Bishop Roger J. Vangheluwe (Belgium)

• edmicca | Sep 09, 2011, 12:04 AM EDT

  CanadianIrish - reading your words is a treat. Every time you open your mouth you subtract from the sum total of human knowledge. McNamara - you stole my line that one case of abuse is one too many. I don't have to justify anything. Facts speak for themselves. The data is publicly available. I never said some priests and bishops didn't do terrible wrongs. I simply said that the number of abuses committed by priests pales in comparison to the number committed by every other religious and non-religious group, a fact confirmed in studies and one you refuse to acknowledge. If you are truly appalled by the abuse of the young, then you can't ignore the atrocities committed by these non-Catholic abusers. Yet you do just that - you dismiss the great majority of the incidents. The Catholic Church is the only one in your crosshairs. When you say you're concerned about ALL victims, you're a hypocrite. Junie Moon - I didn't dismiss a thing lightly. I asked you to consider the larger context of sexual abuse and you categorically refuse to do so, saving your venom for only the Catholic Church. Your only reply when asked to consider ALL abuse cases is to say I don't care about the victims. Yet it is YOU, by your selective finger-pointing, who doesn't care. You can bash the Church all you please but remember this - Christ promised that the Church will last till the end of time, that not even the gates of hell will prevail against her.

• canadianirish | Sep 08, 2011, 09:51 PM EDT

  @edmicca - you're an ass

• JuneAnnette | Sep 08, 2011, 09:19 PM EDT

  MORE on Jack's Story***There were teachers at the orphanage who according to Jack were very much aware of the physical beatings as well as the sexual abuse. "But even they did nothing, they were totally intimidated by the abusers," he said. At 16-years-old he left the orphanage a damaged child who was emotionally shut down. He found himself moving to England in the late 1970s and finding menial works as he had little to no education. He said he once recalled telling a priest in confession when he left the orphanage what had happened to him. "I got a sharp swift belt across the face and was told that I was lucky to have got an education. But what education did I get. I didn't get anything. I was put to work on a farm until all hours," said Jack. During many years in England, Jack described himself "as a loner" and he didn't have trust in many people at all. Thankfully, the only slice of happiness he found in life was meeting and marrying his wife. "There has been no closure for me. I had to sit down and tell my wife and adult children. That was not easy. They were so angry, particularly my sons. It was very tough," said Jack.He has been back to Ireland once since he left in the late 1970s. For legal reasons The Corkman cannot disclose his case."I consider myself 100 per cent Irish, but I will never go back to that place [Ireland]. I want to past to be just that - the past," said Jack.* Names changed to protect victim's identity

• JuneAnnette | Sep 08, 2011, 07:35 PM EDT

  McNamara31, More facts on the Roman Catholic corrupt hierarchy and what edmicca lightly dismisses as a "black eye on the church"***Bishops Accused of Abuse***In the sexual abuse crisis, attention has focused on priests who have sexually abused children; the problem of bishops and major superiors who abuse has not received systematic scrutiny. Yet a bishop who is guilty of child abuse, or who has other violations of celibacy to conceal, has compromised his role in the formation of his priests and in assigning them properly. Bishops who sexually abuse seminarians, as Anthony J. O'Connell has admitted doing, may establish a generational pattern of clergy abuse.

• McNamara31 | Sep 08, 2011, 07:07 PM EDT

  @Edmicca... One thing is for certain. You don't have kids. Because if you did; you wouldn't be trying to justify the figures. One,was far too many. I stand by my comments to you and I have never stated "numbers" so your attack that:" Your numbers are wildly and deceitfully exaggerated" is totally made up by you and I wonder why you continue to go to "such lenghts" with such misinformation.

• edmicca | Sep 08, 2011, 05:53 PM EDT

  McNamara31, patience is a virtue. You shouldn't be so quick to toss away your virtue. I'll say this s-l-o-w-l-y. When you call the abusers pedophiles, and then purposely turn a blind eye to the fact that more than 4 out of 5 of the abuses were homosexual acts, you are being deceitful. When you lambaste the Catholic Church for what less than 2% of its clergy did, and then purposely turn a blind eye to the fact that the great majority of abuses of children were committed by members of OTHER religions and by public school teachers and most of all by relatives, you are being deceitful. You're right, pedophiles commit crimes - I've never said they didn't. But why aren't your thousands of "pedophile" priests in jail? Because they don't exist. Your numbers are wildly and deceitfully exaggerated. You intentionally ignore the true scope of the scandals. But we agree on this - the pedophile priests that DO exist ought to be sent away. You choose to target only the Church while ignoring the majority of those who've done wrong. But we do agree on this - pedophile priests should be sent away. And so should all the pedophiles who greatly outnumber the priests. P.S. I'd rather be an idiot who can support his claims by facts than a genius like you who makes it up as he goes along.

• McNamara31 | Sep 08, 2011, 04:10 PM EDT

  edmicca.. You are a complete idiot. I have lost my patience with you and your kind. When you constantly state: "Over 80% of the abuses involved post-pubescent males, which makes this by definition a homosexual" For every "parent" out there, I repeat to you for the last time... If these children were under legal age IT WAS A CRIME! Post-pubescent or not.

• edmicca | Sep 08, 2011, 04:09 PM EDT

  June Annette - The scandals are a black eye on the Church. No one's arguing that. What is argued are the exaggerations made in terms of nature, number, rate, and the fact that you never mention a single other group whose clergy, employees or family members broke their trust. The height of the scandals was 30 years ago, yet you talk as if it was this morning. You talk one group only, the Catholic Church, the group with the lowest rate of abuse. Name a single American bishop who was found guilty in a court of law. You can't. Yet you talk as if guilty bishops are behind every bush. If they've committed crimes with impunity - as you claim without the courtesy of a single reference source - why aren't they in jail? Where are the indictments from grand juries? You confuse Peter with Judas. You provide no data, just chatter, as if decibels and viciousness win an argument. Those who've scandalized children have committed a grave offense, yet even they are open to Christ's forgiveness. We should be praying for their souls.

• canadianirish | Sep 08, 2011, 04:02 PM EDT

  @edmicca - how absurd.

• edmicca | Sep 08, 2011, 03:53 PM EDT

  Canadian Irish. Stay away from the Molsons.

• canadianirish | Sep 08, 2011, 03:24 PM EDT

  @sirpeter - lol! lol! - great post!! I'm sitting here with a few Canadian friends at the moment who have a suggestion: these sick, vile, repugnant pedo priests should be paid a visit by a couple of members of 'you know who' (as in Really I'm Raging Angry) and have them put the fear of 'you know who' into them. Just a wee chat, nothing more. We're following this story with great interest. Truly respect Enda Kenny and implore him NOT TO BACK DOWN!!

• JuneAnnette | Sep 08, 2011, 10:45 AM EDT

  McNamara31, Here are some facts edmicca has conveniently overlooked!***Source: Reflections from 25 Years of Experience At the Start of the New Year“Over two-thirds of the U.S. bishops have knowingly covered sexual abusers and in so doing have directly caused the ruination of the souls and often the bodies of countless more victims. The almighty Vatican, for all its carefully tooled statements of concern has not called a single bishop to accountability. A few have resigned but so what? They have committed crimes with impunity. Why? Because they are bishops and in the magical thinking of the papacy, bishops are above hard-ball justice. Some bishops have even been sexual abusers themselves. None have been defrocked. I have seen consistent, hard evidence of a radical disconnect between the mandate of Christ in the Gospel in reference to such matters, and the actual actions of the bishops and the popes. In short, the popes (JP2 and Benedict XVI) and the bishops have not acted as Christians but rather as agnostic, self-serving businessmen.”**Thomas Doyle, J.C.D. / January 1, 2010

• edmicca | Sep 08, 2011, 10:07 AM EDT

  McNamara31, You want facts - here are facts compiled by police agencies, the John Jay Report, etc. Among all religious groups, Catholic priests have the lowest rate of abuse. Relatives of victims have the highest. In 2010 in the U.S., there were only 7 credible cases of priestly abuse. Over 80% of the abuses involved post-pubescent males, which makes this by definition a homosexual issue, not a pedophile issue. To eiriamach or whatever your name is, you confuse me with 2B who speaks spot on. If there is an entertainment factor in all this it's folks like you and JuneAnnette who toss biblical quotes around like mud pies but who wouldn't know a fact or a clear line of reasoning if you fell over it.

• mamaginnty | Sep 07, 2011, 06:12 PM EDT

  2BORORNOT2B, PLEASE READ THIS...We must send a clear message to these hundreds perhaps thousands-of children whose sinful ways have tempted so many of the churches servants into lustful violation of their holy vows of celibacy. That is why, despite the terrible wrongs they have committed , the church must move on and forgive these children for their misdeeds. John Paul 11 read out this full page statement in as far back as 2002 . The church forgives these underage seducers and tempters. This is a man they the so called servants of god may make a saint. A whole cult of evil sick twisted b......s. just put up " The Pope Forgives Molested Children " and read this unbelievable statement, let us know what you think 2B.

• eiriamach | Sep 07, 2011, 11:23 AM EDT

  JuneAnnette, 2Bor/edmicca is an epicene ranter who gets his jollies from snarling at other IC posters, particularly females and those he thinks are female! As he himself boasts, he does it for "entertainment," not out of any wish to discuss issues. A flunky to male authority, he is convinced that he has ultimate Truth from his Roman Papa fully within his grasp already, so he attacks divergent views without ever offering any evidence or reason, just ad hominems, name calling, personal attacks. Such is the arrogance of those who think they are in sole possession of absolute truth: As Aquinas once said, "If we resolve the problems posed by faith exclusively by means of authority, we will of course possess the truth –-but in empty heads!" (Quodlibet IV:16). 2Bor imitates a type of attention-deficit disorder by twisting your words until he has them saying virtually the opposite of your posting. Usually, people have the impulse to correct others' misunderstandings, but please realize that 2Bor does this deliberately, spitefully, because he CANNOT answer any objections to his "Truth"; he CANNOT condescend to the level of specifics. His bashing is entirely without subtlety of any kind, so he thinks it is hard-hitting, while in fact it's so lacking in subtlety that it's transparent as sadistic. That's why most do not bother to reply to him: we know that no reasonable person CAN take him seriously and if we give him attention for such behavior, we encourage him to do more of the same. Better to just ignore him.

• McNamara31 | Sep 07, 2011, 11:05 AM EDT

  And BTW Edmicca As of this writing, unlike you, 95% of IC poster support Enda Kenny standing and speaking truth to the Vatican. They understand this is their church, their children, and there is no place for "blind faith" when it comes to criminal activity. If anyone of these children were under age it was criminal activity no matter how far you try to stretch the facts or the John Jay report that you love to quote.

• McNamara31 | Sep 07, 2011, 10:52 AM EDT

  Edmicca Oblivious as always; still banging the same old drum. You continue to be deaf, dumb and blind to the facts to the point of being delusional. Did you every fathom that Christ may be cleaning His house of this filth and you support the wrong team?

• warlocks | Sep 07, 2011, 01:55 AM EDT

  Time to hit the church in the pocket book stop supporting the criminals the church is in moral decay and the only way to stop it is to root out the criminal elements . be it a parish Priest, Bishop, Cardinal, and even the Pope no one should be above local, State or Gods Laws.The church needs to be Re born clean out the rubbish and start over as Jesus created his church called the Way ! Forget the word ROMAN, History shows it to be Pagan. and ANTI Christian they slaughtered Jesus , Peter and Paul and many other Early Christians.

• edmicca | Sep 06, 2011, 11:57 PM EDT

  JunieMoonAnnette, 2BorNot2B has your number. I see you've cranked up your inner Madame DeFarge. And you still don't know the abuses are a homosexual problem, not a pedophile problem. When will your venom fall on the major perpetrators of abuse - other clergy, public school teachers, and - numero uno by far - relatives? I never said lawyers were to blame for the abuses. I said they advised the Church how to deal with victims who refused for whatever reasons to go to the civil authorities. McNamara31, As always, if only your mind could open as wide as your mouth and wrap itself around facts and clear thinking.

• McNamara31 | Sep 06, 2011, 08:23 PM EDT

  @2BorNot2B …Once again, you return with the same sick verbiage. Many of us who have been posting with IC for the past few years are familiar with you and I for one have come to believe you are nothing more than a “shill” and not a real IC poster at all. 2BorNot2B a person who has shown such un Christ like hate and bigotry time and time again has now become the defender of the church. Simply amazing!

• 2BorNot2B | Sep 06, 2011, 05:22 PM EDT

  PS Junie, could you tell me why is it tha everyone is suing the Church and no one is suing the psychiatrists who were the ones who gave the priests 'a clean bill of health'? Why don't you start with Richard Sipe since he was one of the 'mental healers'?

• 2BorNot2B | Sep 06, 2011, 04:59 PM EDT

  Junie, spare us the pathetic, situational, and non-contextual bible thumping! Gad, you're so typical of your kind you're an embodied cliche. -- Be sure and thank the CC who, by compiling, canonizing and putting the books together gave you as well the means to use it as a cudgel to bludgeon your intended victims. Otherwise... you might have ended up as a mute holy-roller! - Now, remind me here, who was it that said no protestant should claim ultimate authority in the words of the bible without acknowledging the authority of those who put it all together?' Imagine the 'happy coincidence!' The down side for you is... that having had all those books in our possession from the very beginning, what tells you we did not put some in there that might give us an unfair advantage over the Johnnie-come-latelys that were invented in the 16C? You'll be forever condemned to wonder!

• edmicca | Sep 06, 2011, 03:59 PM EDT

  That Niall O'Dowd... you give a man a voice and a rostrum and he fancies himself a mind. Niall, I suggest you try using facts. They're the latest thing - it was in all the papers.

• JuneAnnette | Sep 06, 2011, 02:48 PM EDT

  2BorNot2B a Roman Catholic . . indeed that is the burning question?***Those who unquestionably place their trust in a man are deemed followers of a cult. The pope is the leader of the largest cult, namely Roman Catholicism, which boasts a billion followers. Christ rebuked the religious leaders of his day, the Scribes . . the Pharisees on several occasions for their preference of TRADITION over the SCRIPTURES. ( Matt. 15:3,6; Mark 7:8,9; 13) No more is this in view than in the cult of Roman Catholicism. Christ also rebuked them for their ignorance of the SCRIPTURES. (Matt. 22:29 It is a common snare among men to elevate a man to a position of prominence, but for Christians, Christ alone is to have the pre-eminence. (Col. 1:18) Christ has warned us that many false prophets would arise. (Mark 13:22) Christ said HIS sheep hear HIS voice and follow him. (John 10:27-28) He went on to say, those who keep HIS Word and obey HIS commandments are in truth HIS disciples. (John 8:31; John 14:15; John 15:10) In his earthly ministry, Christ often read and quoted from the Old Testament Scriptures. The Apostle Paul in the book of Acts commends the Jews in Berea for searching the Scriptures and not taking Paul at his word (Acts 17:11), and in Paul's 2nd letter to Timothy, we read: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (II Tim. 3:16-17)

• 2BorNot2B | Sep 06, 2011, 02:43 PM EDT

  JuneAGnewt: You have definitely mastered the art of arguing through the use of worn-out fallacies. Your posts are a tribute to generalization, argumentum ad misericordiam, ad hominem abusive, etc. and worse yet, they are a study in fundamentalist judgmentalism. As much as you might bathe yourself in the waters of purity, yours is not 'solidarity with the victims' as such.. Instead, you’ve found the mantle of judge, jury and executioner and wear them at any and all occasions. You've apostatized and, as they say: there's no worse anti-Catholic than an ex-Catholic. Congrats, you play the part well! Take your prize to your new 'faith community' and flaunt it to the preacher and the 50 or so faithfully deluded that form the total sum of your sect; show it off in one of those 'fellowshipping sessions.’ Tell them how you exercise your ministry by brow-beating, bible-bludgeoning and finger-pointing at the faults of Catholics exclusively, as if they are the only ones that sin, but you don’t care, they make a huge TARGET! -- Unless, you yourself are the leader and preacher in your sect, and judging by the verbal diarrhea you're afflicted with... I would not doubt it. After all, in the world of sects, there's a pope per head, and the anointing is as simple as finding the one with the most saliva! And didn't Luther, the sharp-tongued inventor of your ilk recognize it by saying: 'I got rid of one pope, and created thousands.'

• JuneAnnette | Sep 06, 2011, 11:57 AM EDT

  edmicca, yet another pathetic attempt at “gaslighting”!! You have achieved a new low in attempting to lay the blame for the self-perpetuated ROMAN CATHOLIC CLERGY ABUSE SCANDAL at the feet of LAWYERS who gave them bad advice. For this you will be laughed to scorn. The depraved acts these sick and twisted paedophille priests in your midst, who forced themselves upon innocent children (in legal terms: gross sexual imposition upon minors) in order to satisfy their insatiable and unnatural sexual appetites would fill even the most hardened criminal with disgust and disdain, and would be met with revulsion by the most ungodly and irreligious man. It is your priests . . your bishops . . your cardinals . . your "church" that must now endure the universal CONTEMPT, SCORN, DERISION, and DISDAIN being meted out to them and reserved for those who commit such abominable acts! The intense scrutiny their monstrous crimes are receiving by the media, publicly subjecting them to the same humiliation, shame, reproach, and degradation in the eyes of the worldwide community which they themselves imposed upon their innumerable powerless and vulnerable victims whom they callously and mercilessly sexually raped and molested, in what they themselves reckon to be the “Worst Crime”, exacts a kind of poetic justice if nothing else.

• edmicca | Sep 06, 2011, 11:19 AM EDT

  JuneAnnette, LAWYERS are also the ones decades ago who advised the Church that the way to deal with victims who did not want to go public, who did not want to press charges, is to offer them money in a non-disclosure agreement. This was common LEGAL practice then, and is common LEGAL practice now, not only in cases of sexual abuse but in other cases as well. Perhaps the Catholic Church should sue all those LAWYERS for bad advice, given how folks like you preach that the Church someone sneakily just paid victims for their silence. Victims always had the right to go to the proper LEGAL authorities and the Church had no power to stop them from doing just that. P.S. if you don't know why Jeffrey Anderson the LAWYER is beneath contempt for his unbridled lies, then you need a vocabulary refresher on the word contempt.

• edmicca | Sep 06, 2011, 11:00 AM EDT

  Niall O'Down never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity to get the facts straight. He lives under the misconception that all one needs is a mouth and a pen to fancy one's self a mind. If for no other reason, Prime Minister Kenny should be run out of town for suggesting the sacred Seal of Confession be done away with. But if that doesn't persuade, try the following. Watch till the end. http://www.romereports.com/palio/the-vatican-did-not-hinder-any-investigation-of-sexual-abuse-in-ireland-english-4850.html

• JuneAnnette | Sep 06, 2011, 10:56 AM EDT

  LAWYERS stand up for the rights of VICTIMS. LAWYERS defend those unable to defend themselves. LAWYERS give a VOICE to those who for too long have not been heard. LAWYERS have a way of leveling the playing field. LAWYERS persuade, and if necessary, compel those who have done WRONG to do the RIGHT thing. Your feeble attempt now to discredit and demonize Jeffrey Anderson, et al in his JUST CAUSE and CRUSADE to champion the rights of the ABUSED is the typical Vatican gaslighting maneuver which your “church” continues to employ to their shame. We know the VILLIANS from the HEROES.***It is your “church” that has orchestrated the SCANDAL and your “church” that in so doing has shown the world they are morally and spiritually bankrupt and altogether devoid of any “moral authority”!***In solidarity with the VICTIMS of Roman Catholic Clergy Abuse & those who ADVOCATE for them, JuneAnnette

• JuneAnnette | Sep 06, 2011, 10:56 AM EDT

  2BorNot2B . . . How telling that your concern and sympathy is reserved for the “good priests” who by your reckoning “have been vilified, discredited and persecuted without reason”, yet for the countless VICTIMS of the predator priests in “your church” you have shown a callous indifference! If your priests had spent more time praying instead of preying upon innocent children, there would be no need for lawyers. If your priests had spent more time praying instead of preying upon vulnerable children, there would be no need for lawyers. If your priests had not engaged in such lewd, licentious, and SCANDALOUS behavior, there would be no need for lawyers. If your bishops had done the RIGHT thing in the sight of GOD and complied with the law of the land instead of covering up their subordinate's vile criminal acts in order to avoid SCANDAL, there would be no need for lawyers. If your priests had spent more time praying instead of wantonly molesting, abusing, sodomizing, and in many cases, brutally assaulting defenceless children, they would not be forced to defend themselves today and the UNHOLY Roman Catholic “church” would not be embroiled in endless litigation!

• edmicca | Sep 06, 2011, 10:53 AM EDT

  Collette, Yes, 1 case of abuse is 1 too many. But let's put the matter in context. In 2010 in the USA, there were 7 -count 'em, 7 - credible cases of priestly abuse. The rate of abuse by priests is lower than that of any other religion's clergy. It is lower than that of any non-religious institution, certainly lower than that of public school teachers, and far lower than that of the greatest perpetrators of abuse - relatives of victims. Your child is safer around his parish priest than he is around virtually anyone else. Why is it, do you think, that when it comes to reporting sexual abuse, the Catholic Church is singled out in the press as if it invented abuse, and why is it that the majority of allegations are 20, 30, 40 years old. I hope your calling the Church to task is met with equal anger by your calling to task every other group that has within its ranks those who lack fidelity to what's right.

• Peadar62 | Sep 06, 2011, 10:30 AM EDT

  There is I notice very little focus on the facts. Granted what O'Dowd says is true but that does not mean that Kenny is off the hook. I want Kenny to point out specific facts in how the Vatican involved itself in the abuse cases. Lets focus on that please.

• 2BorNot2B | Sep 06, 2011, 01:27 AM EDT

  Collette2 - I have the sneaky feeling that even if an angel of light appeared offering you proof positive that in the the rush to condemn the CC, an awful lot of good priests have been vilified, discredited and persecuted without reason, you'd still not hesitate in questioning the integrity of the messenger. -- The hatchet job against the entire Church and her ministers has been perpetrated in a concerted effort from several quarters: by Jeffrey Anderson (who heretofore has made a nifty 600 Million profit off the CC collection plates -little of which has trickled down to the so called 'victims'-); by his dupes at SNAP who will caterwaul and stop at nothing whenever Jeffy snaps his fingers; by the ACT UP pervs who have the definite agenda of discrediting and nullifying any moral authority remaining for a Chruch that opposes their sham 'marriages,' opposes adoption of children from their agencies, and preaches against their 'lifestyle'; and by the MSM who hates the CC, is only too glad to coddle ACT UP and sensationalize any allegations because that brings eyeballs to their dying rags and TV networks. - For your part, I've read the undiluted hate in your posts and I'm not convinced that your motives are pure. You're one of the usual pitchfork and torch-barers waiting for a chance to have the whole of the Church burn at the stake. My feeling is that in the end you, and all the others who join you daily in putting more wood to the fire will die of terminal disappointment. Domage!

• drwho13 | Sep 05, 2011, 08:17 PM EDT

  2BorNot2B - I forgot to mention I'm from the USA. I'm squeezing my pension out of the federal government's dwindling resources, increasing your debt. I must say you did make my day. I didn't know that out of 45,000 priests there's been a grand total of 8 or 10 cases that have actually ended up in convictions. THAT MEANS THAT I'M RESPONSIBLE FOR AT LEAST 10% OF THE PRIEST PRISON POPULATION in the States! I accomplished a lot more than I thought. I will pray for you (in Christian speak, that means "you can go F--- yourself.") I'm just kidding 2BorNot2B; I've enjoyed our exchange.

• Collette2 | Sep 05, 2011, 08:01 PM EDT

  Only 8 to 10 out of 45000 convicted. That's still nothing to be proud of, as it doesn't mean they were innocent, only there wasn't enough evidence and we well know what they do with evidence these day's. 2beornot: We don't have to do much bashing only the obvious, they condemn themselves as you do yourself. Theyr'e heading for hell and taking anyone who doesn't stand against the evil perpetrated against our most vulnerable with them. No conscience vote there, as they don't have one.

• Liamkeyes | Sep 05, 2011, 07:09 PM EDT

  I believe that God will clean out his house.

• 2BorNot2B | Sep 05, 2011, 06:55 PM EDT

  drwho13 - Like you, I'm no longer in the business of getting "offender" by every little POS who wanders into a blog and starts spewing anti-Cath screeds. Too many idiots.. too little time! Besides, don't you just feel like an ant in a hopeless and rather laughable attempt to copulate with an elephant? -- Yeah, I'd say once it gets to the level of 'death threats' by the Swiss Guards (if that's who you referred to) it's time to hang up the spurs (or what is it they use to ride sheep in Eire?). -- And let me congratulate you on 'bagging' a pedo back in the '90's, perhaps if you'd stayed on we might not have had all the accusations, allegations and the few cases of priests that were actual found guilty. Because if you must know, since this problem started to be prosecuted in earnest here in the US, by the Church itself in conjunction with the law in the last 10 years, among something like 45,000 priests there's been a grand total of 8 or 10 cases that have actually ended up in convictions. Pretty much a pittance as compared to what goes on in public schools and in scandals of sexual nature and moral turpitude abounding in politics, don't you agree? - A second congrats in order as well on your enjoyment of the pension squeezed out from the meager tax base the dying economy of Ireland is able to muster, ol'geez. Hope you leave something for your grandkids.

• 2BorNot2B | Sep 05, 2011, 06:19 PM EDT

  eileend: if you are not sure this is the Church that Jesus built, then may I suggest you spend some time searching the library stacks and find a collection of writings called "The Fathers of the Church," there's one written by Wm Jurgens which is particularly user-friendly, but there are several others as well which might illustrate your doubts. Not only that, but wasn't the CC the one and only who saved Western civilization when Constantine decided to ditch Rome, which was being constantly assailed from within (multi-culturalism gone wild as in the US), and without (those pesky Goths, Vandals, Franks, etc wouldn't stop sacking the place!)and go South-Eastward to build his manse in Constantinople (What are the chances?? He went to a place that had a similar name to his own!). - Further, wasn't it the CC who ruled all the churches mentioned in Acts and the Epistles? And weren't all those Epistles and Gospels gathered from the various Sees, along with many other spurious 'gospels' (Acts of Paul and Tecla, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary Magdalen, etc.) then discerned and compiled into what is called ' the Bible'? -- The fact that throughout 2000 years of history there have been, and still are some BAD people inside it does not make the entire Church bad, nor Jesus derelict in His promises. You need to hit the books.

• sirpeter | Sep 05, 2011, 06:18 PM EDT

  It's all very depressing.I think a joke is in order:As the alter boy is leaving to go home, the priest says, "See you later alligator!" The alter boy replies, "In a while pedophile!"(tee-hee)OK!!OK!! I'm going!!

• eileend | Sep 05, 2011, 05:37 PM EDT

  I'm not at all sure why you think that this church is the one Jesus built. How do you know he hasn't sent Bishop Diarmuid Martin to speak His truth? The Bishop was asked BY THE VATICAN to look into the question of abuse, yet when he suggested solutions, he was forbidden. I'm sorry, Trealach, you say produce the evidence. I ask, what cave have you been living in? The smoking gun, in the form of letters that have been published that forbid a bishop from turning over a criminal priest on pain of excommunication, is there. Do you really, sincerely think that Christ, who spent his entire ministry fighting for the welfare of the weakest, the most vulnerable, would give his own church license to systematically rape and abuse children and then protect itself at cost of the child? There is no logic to that. Can you think the church cannot err? The Holy Spirit may guide us, but we are still human, and as evidenced by 2000 years of history, just as prone to arrogance, greed and cowardice as any other human. SeamusMor, this isn't old news while the Church in the person of her bishops and Pope himself refuse to change its response to its own crimes, the least of them being dereliction of duty.

• 2BorNot2B | Sep 05, 2011, 04:36 PM EDT

  PS @eeriemuck who sez: "... the huge number of Catholics the 'Holy' See is alienating with its duplicitous double-speak. Do they think that with smaller numbers of people in the pews they can more easily get away with the same old, same old...? --- Geez eerie.. better get a new prescription for your bottle-bottom sized spectacles, or now and then do some wondering away from PBS, PMSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, BBC and the gayporn channels with your remote. There was a huge party in Madrid a couple of weeks ago hosted by the Vatican which drew some million and a half joyous young people to the Cuatro Vientos airfield. And those were only the ones who braved the miserable weather! There were millions more lining the streets to catch a glimpse of BXVI, and millions of others watching the entire thing on TV. The stay-at-homes mentioned the joy was contagious, palpable and they wanted it to remain with them forever. So the discontent, alienation and smaller numbers are where??? -- But of course, you were watching the one hundred or so gay protesters and condom promoters your media dogs focused on. I should have figured that out! No wonder you have a perennial sour puss.

• stanJames | Sep 05, 2011, 04:32 PM EDT

  the criminals of the vatican continue to deny and deny. Kids were not only molested, but some were driven to suicide - terrified of the priests approach and terrified that if they ratted out the criminals the priests would have them sent to hell. The sooner the Vatican is turned into a museum commemorating the churches death and showing the vile criems to all, catholic and non catholic alike, the sooner humanity will take a great step forward. BTW it was the catholic church that talks about portecting life. Yet it was the church that Deominized the Jews - Jesus own people, for a thousand years. Which laid both the foundations for the holocaust, and the hate that the still unexcommunicated monster AH leveraged to gain power. 55 million died, including 20 million germans brainwashed by the church and hitler. http://www.philadelphiadistrictattorney.com/images/Grand_Jury_Report.pdf (this report is the one that also refers to kids driven to suicide, and a kid who told his father about the molestation and was beaten for disrespecting the priest who raped him.) http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7429933/Child-abuse-scandals-faced-by-Roman-Catholic-Church.html http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5585738.ece re pope welcoming back holocaust denier Williamson. Of course pope born and grew up in Nazi Germany. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7429933/Child-abuse-scandals-faced-by-Roman-Catholic-Church.html

• 2BorNot2B | Sep 05, 2011, 04:09 PM EDT

  Hey O'Dowdy, are you excluding my posts? I thought you were my bud. I even got a request from you asking me to be your friend on LinkedIn, so why the sudden phobia?

• 2BorNot2B | Sep 05, 2011, 04:06 PM EDT

  PS @eeriemuck who sez: "... the huge number of Catholics the 'Holy' See is alienating with its duplicitous double-speak. Do they think that with smaller numbers of people in the pews they can more easily get away with the same old, same old...? --- Geez eerie.. better get a new prescription for your bottle-bottom sized spectacles, or now and then do some wondering away from PBS, PMSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, BBC and the gayporn channels with your remote. There was a huge party in Madrid a couple of weeks ago hosted by the Vatican which drew some million and a half joyous young people to the Cuatro Vientos airfield. And those were only the ones who braved the miserable weather! There were millions more lining the streets to catch a glimpse of BXVI, and millions of others watching the entire thing on TV. The stay-at-homes mentioned the joy was contagious, palpable and they wanted it to remain with them forever. So the discontent, alienation and smaller numbers are where??? -- But of course, you were watching the one hundred or so gay protesters and condom promoters your media dogs focused on. I should have figured that out! No wonder you have a perennial sour puss.

• AndrewSB49 | Sep 05, 2011, 03:50 PM EDT

  @ Trealach Should Enda send the evidence to Rome via Cardinal Hoyos or the Primate of All Ireland Cardinal Sean Brady? Hoyos is the guy that congratulated a French bishop for protecting a clergyman who was raping children and Brady is the guy who made sure Fr. Brendan Smyth continued his rapacious reign for two more decades.

• drwho13 | Sep 05, 2011, 03:47 PM EDT

  2BorNot2B - It sounds like I've offender you. Personally I am no longer in the business of tracking down those SOB's. It's simply too dangerous; I received a death threat. But, when I was in the business I had the goods on a pedophile priest back in the 90's. "Honest to goodness legal charges" were filed and that priest is still rotting in prison. PS - You are correct on one point; I do get a thrill sitting a round the house waiting for my pension check. It's summer-time and the living is easy, thank you.

• barneyjo | Sep 05, 2011, 03:34 PM EDT

  I have read the Vatican response, and I have to say that it does nothing to convince me that the church is seeking a moral renewal in the wake of these revelations. You know why? Its not so much in what the report says, its more about what it doesnt say. For me, the line in the sand came when the actions of Father Sean Brady, in respect of his 1975 investigations (or inaction) in relation to Brendan Smyth became known. I HAVE THIS AWFUL IMAGE IN MY MIND OF THEN FATHER BRADY FORCING TWO CHILD VICTIMS OF ONE OF IRELANDS WORST CLERICAL PREDATORS TO SIGN AN INSTRUMENT OF NON-DISCLOSURE, FORCING THEM INTO MANDATORY SILENCE, OR RISK DAMNATION OF THEIR SOULS!!. I find myself wondering if Sean Brady had any siblings who went on to have children, making him an uncle. I wonder if he is even a Great-Uncle? I wonder if, when he visits with his family, does he ever reflect on what he did to those two children in 1975, or the consequences of his inaction against Brendan Smyth, allowing him to prey on children for almost two decades further. And I wonder, if in the solitude of his own thought has he ever asked himself the question "MY GOD, WHAT HAVE I DONE.!?? I know I wouldnt want to stand before my God in his shoes. Its not as if Jesus didnt spell it out clearly the consequences for anyone who would harm a child. Trealach et al, as I have said before, if the exposure of so much evil within the Catholic Church is done by Gods will, that means there is no under-dog (ie the church) to defend, and Gods will WILL be done!!!

• barneyjo | Sep 05, 2011, 03:24 PM EDT

  have read the Vatican response, and I have to say that it does nothing to convince me that the church is seeking a moral renewal in the wake of these revelations. You know why? Its not so much in what the report says, its more about what it doesnt say. For me, the line in the sand came when the actions of Father (later Cardinal) Sean Brady, in respect of his investigations (or inaction) in relation to Brendan Smyth became known. I HAVE THIS AWFUL IMAGE IN MY MIND OF THEN FATHER BRADY FORCING TWO CHILD VICTIMS OF ONE OF IRELANDS WORST CLERIAL PREDATORS TO SIGN AN INSTRUMENT OF NON-DISCLOSURE, FORCING THEM INTO MANDATORY SILENCE, OR RISK DAMNATION OF THEIR SOULS!!. I find myself wondering if Sean Brady had any siblings who went on to have children, making him an uncle. I wonder if he is even a Great-Uncle? I wonder if, when he visits with his family, does he ever reflect on what he did to those two children in 1975, or the consequences of his inaction against Brendan Smyth, allowing him to prey on children for almost two decades further. And I wonder, if in the solitude of his own thought has he ever asked himself the question "MY GOD, WHAT HAVE I DONE.!!

• 2BorNot2B | Sep 05, 2011, 03:03 PM EDT

  @ drwho13, irishlegalperson,IAJESTER, CitizenWho, eeriemuck, collette2 - so why don't you and all the usual banshees who wail and rent your garments every time an anti-Cath hit piece is scribbled on this cyber-rag finish the hell out of 'tracking everyone of those SOB's and settling the score' once and for all.. that is if you REALLY, REALLY got the goods on them! C'mon already... file some honest to goodness legal charges against someone and then, STFU! - Oh but wait... that would mean 95% of those who frequent this website would disappear into the next Catholic-bashing site, and 'sadly' IC would cease to exist! -- Yeah, we get it: the haters, the gay&gaylovers, the atheists, and the ranting beatches of dubious sex who'd love to crush the CC (or at least re-make it into their own little public den of iniquity, and the product of your male/female menopausal fantasies), salivate and pine for your daily fix, because most likely your pathetic life is so empty, worthless and devoid of meaning (save for the thrill of receiving your weekly unemployment and/or monthly SS gratuities), that having IC provide you with a reason to get up in the morning, make your sclerotic veins start flowing, and give you a vehicle to spew the bile that pervades your being is a necessity. -- Aren't you the lucky ones... guess what? An eternity of similar unhappiness including wailing and grinding of teeth awaits you. So start learning how to count EONS. And not because your repetitive accusations against people who may, or may not be guilty have gotten damn OLD, but because you want to destroy what Christ created and assured us would be around 'until the end of time.'

• Trealach | Sep 05, 2011, 02:29 PM EDT

  At long last!! Enda Kenny has proven himself to be a profound LIAR - Not ONE case can he point to, to substantiate his LIES. Congratulations to the Vatican for exposing this Traitor and Liar. ArchBishop Martin has asked Dame Kenny to substantiate his LIES, and his silence is deafening. Where are you Mr.Kenny? face your accusers and PRODUCE the EVIDENCE, or resign! and get the hell out of our country!

• drwho13 | Sep 05, 2011, 02:01 PM EDT

  SeamusMor - These Church leaders should be treated just like Nazi war criminals; what was done over 20 years ago is NOT irrelevant today. Once we track everyone of those SOB's and settle the score, then we'll move on!

• SeamusMor | Sep 05, 2011, 01:41 PM EDT

  Old news. Letters written over 20 years ago are irrelevant today. The Church's views on the subject of abuse evolved from it being a sin, then a sickness, and now, finally, a crime to be reported to the police. Times have changed. Move on!

• irislegalperson | Sep 05, 2011, 12:26 PM EDT

  As a young child in Ireland I went to a National school that was run by priests and the catholic church. We didn't have priest teaching us but the parish owned the school so the parish priest had total control of everything. Our head master at the time was a cruel sadistic coward and would beat the living daylights out of us for just about anything. One or two of the parents did complain but they were looked upon as bad parents who spoiled their children. I remember the so called parish priest arriving at the school every week, smelling of alcohol, with a big smile and a huge hand shake for the head master. The minute he unlatched the door to walk in everyone had to rise and say... Good morning Father... Like it was some very important person.I always wondered why our head master got away with such cruelty to the children and why our parish priest never asked him to cut out the beatings or at least cut down some of them. Some of our Catholic priests are just wonderful, good people but unfortunately we have more bad priest than good. They are rotten from the core out.Thank you Enda Kenny... Finally someone stands up to them. Ps. I also want to mention that what happened to us children back then...the beatings and humiliation. I can only imagine what those other children went through while being physically, mentally and sexually abused by those very evil men. I wish someone was there to speak for you and all us innocent children back in those days. Finally, someone is stepping up and not allowing them the control or justify what they have done to the innocent, ruining their lives, their families lives and covering up with lies and deception.

• CitizenWhy | Sep 05, 2011, 11:46 AM EDT

  The Vatican swims in a culture of self-congratulation, arrogance, and swishy costumes and phony "princely" titles. What do you expect from such a lot?

• IAPRINCESS | Sep 05, 2011, 10:35 AM EDT

  The apology and action should come from the Vatican. They have it backwards and cannot abide this terrible truth!!!!!

• seagreen | Sep 05, 2011, 10:01 AM EDT

  The slightest apology to the Vatican will only guarantee more of the same pedofilic behavior. This criminal activity by priests in Ireland and America,and the nuns in Quebec (years past)will end when the source of the problem no longer exists. The question is, should there even be any more commnication with the Vatican ?

• drwho13 | Sep 05, 2011, 09:44 AM EDT

  "Catholic bishops are owed nothing," and neither is the pope. Once we start disrespecting them, they will have NO POWER over us. Taoiseach Enda Kenny doesn't report to those filthy pigs. Throw them all out of Ireland. Canon law carries no weight here! Who's country is it anyway?

• eiriamach | Sep 05, 2011, 08:27 AM EDT

  George Bernard Shaw once famously said, "I'm an atheist and I thank God for it." Today's new Irish atheists can thank the 'Holy' See for it and quote the See's letter of Response to the Irish Government! Today's Vatican is marvelously indifferent to the huge number of Catholics the 'Holy' See is alienating with its duplicitous double-speak. Do they think that with smaller numbers of people in the pews they can more easily get away with the same old, same old...?

• Collette2 | Sep 05, 2011, 07:10 AM EDT

  The Prime Minister, doesn't need to apologise absolutely. Continue to stand by him up front. I wouldn't put too much faith in the good Archbshop either, the Vatican had him marked for big things things as part of their "boy's club".