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Periscope by Niall O'Dowd

Diarmuid Martin may not last as Irish church savior says top reporter

Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 at 10:01 AM

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eiriamach | Apr 16, 2011, 02:05 PM EDT

I am jovially awaiting the "thundering response" that Jacersagain thinks my comments "deserve." His words remind me of Jove/Jupiter (Zeus to the ancient Greeks). Jove was the god of the thunderbolts, powerful weapons that he used to defeat the Titans. I imagine that Jove regretted his war sometime later, when the Romans made him the Patron of their great city-state and he finally understood the wisdom of having allies in a pinch. Those Romans could abuse even the gods themselves with their war-mongering and their laws and their endless cant about Rome being in charge of everyone's destiny. I wonder what kind of thunderbolts Jacersagain will be throwing in my direction and can I duck fast enough? My thanks to JuneA and BarneyJ for keeping Jacers busy with their discussion.

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JuneAnnette | Apr 16, 2011, 01:12 PM EDT

barneyjo . . Good Point . . Article: Chief exorcist Father Gabriele Amorth says Devil is in the Vatican / Source / Website: The Times / March 11, 2010 / Richard Owen in Rome****** EXCERPT: Sex abuse scandals in the Roman Catholic Church are proof that that "the Devil is at work inside the Vatican", according to the Holy See's chief exorcist. Father Gabriele Amorth, 85, who has been the Vatican's chief exorcist for 25 years and says he has dealt with 70,000 cases of demonic possession, said that the consequences of satanic infiltration included power struggles at the Vatican as well as "cardinals who do not believe in Jesus, and bishops who are linked to the Demon". He added: "When one speaks of 'the smoke of Satan' [a phrase coined by Pope Paul VI in 1972] in the holy rooms, it is all true – including these latest stories of violence and paedophilia." He claimed that another example of satanic behaviour was the Vatican "cover-up" over the deaths in 1998 of Alois Estermann, the then commander of the Swiss Guard, his wife and Corporal Cedric Tornay, a Swiss Guard, who were all found shot dead. "They covered up everything immediately," he said. "Here one sees the rot".

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barneyjo | Apr 16, 2011, 01:01 PM EDT

@jacersagain - when you say "so does Satan know people’s minds and souls and he surreptitiously uses people" I assume you would include Catholic Clergy at all levels within the Church? And it not, then why not?

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JuneAnnette | Apr 16, 2011, 11:20 AM EDT

jacersagain . . Wrong . . the brainwashing you refer to occurred in the 1st 40 yrs of my life! Judging from your remarks, it would appear you place a great deal of weight on man's rationale and intellect. This is the spirit of the world, or if you like . . the mindset of the world. Contrariwise, Christians are said to have the “mind of Christ.” (1 Cor. 2:16) Those who would be “taught of God” (John 6:45) are exhorted in God's Word to “compare spiritual things with spiritual” (1 Cor. 2:13). One can acquire an academic knowledge of religion, and yet be ignorant of a true knowledge of God, possessed only by those who are brought by grace into a real and vital relationship with HIM through His Son. This knowledge is communicated by the Holy Spirit, given only to those who believe and it is His Spirit that guides them into Truth. This I KNOW by experience. (John 14:15-17)****1 Cor. 2:10-11: “But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.” “We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen. . . .” (John 3:11) “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” (John 10:27) I do KNOW the LORD . . whom to know is eternal life! (John 17:3)

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jacersagain | Apr 16, 2011, 08:00 AM EDT

(...more) Unfortunately, so does Satan know people’s minds and souls and he surreptitiously uses people like Niall O’Dowd, some of his journalists and people like John Allen to attack the one true faith. I challenge Niall O’Dowd, once again, to turn his ability to spread news in the way that Jesus Christ asked and not in the way that Satan uses him to. As JuneAnnette might well know, St. Paul told the Galatians that turning the other cheek does not mean giving in to injustice, it does not mean accepting or living and believing in the popular, equality, journalistic fashion of the day, trying to please the hunger for something awful with headlines like “Diarmuid Martin may not last as Irish church savior says top reporter”. It also means fighting back against awful untruths. “Now”, St. Paul said, “does this sound like I am trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I should not be the servant of Christ!!” It was an amazing display of justified anger shouted by St. Paul. It made the Galatians catch their breath and listen.

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jacersagain | Apr 16, 2011, 07:51 AM EDT

JuneAnnette (JA) is indeed blessed and I’m glad to read her input into this debate under Niall’s article above. Debate is about exchanging views but I can’t help but feel that JA has been brain-washed for the last 20 years of her life. I think she needs to get out more often, be a part of life itself and not be completely succumbed by words that were only starting to be compiled into a book some” 61” years after our Christ’s death and resurrection. Tradition existed long before the Bible and it is why it is such a strong, equal part of the Catholic faith. When I make my posts here on ICentral, I rarely quote words from the Bible; I don’t need to because I have explored the notion of Tradition and its part in our Christian belief. I write ordinary words and express thoughts as an ordinary man, just in the way that stories in Ireland are handed down by ordinary people, by families and friends through the years, centuries and millennia. Tradition comes from what people do, what they say (like through those handed-down stories) and what they practice on foot of time-honoured understandings. However, I am equally challenged to stand up and say that JA does not know the Lord, despite her shouted belief of that. None but the exceptionally privileged few do and that is by choice of God alone. It is, however, true to say that Our Lord knows us, every single one of us. He knows Niall O’Dowd’s mind and soul. He knows A/bishop Martin’s and he knows John Allen’s. (More...)

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jacersagain | Apr 16, 2011, 07:43 AM EDT

I'll get back on to eiriamach's comments later with the thundering response they deserve. Meanwhile, I'd like to address JuneAnnette's comments and in particular Icentral's position on Catholic matters.

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eiriamach | Apr 16, 2011, 05:22 AM EDT

Jacers, it is ironic that you find nothing but a "trend of anti-Catholic sentiment" in IC articles about RCC. We are all living out a moment of history together, a time in which we are witnessing the profound eclipse, certainly the decline of, a once-great, global religious institution. That collapse is news, plain and simple yet sad to tell. To tell the truth about it is not to express a "sentiment," pro- or anti- anything. IC has a duty to report facts objectively in the public interest. You may not want to read or face those facts, but they are real nonetheless. You and other anti-reform Catholics who are reading from the same script in your postings will continue to complain while the rest of us take this history in and sadly note that you few refuse to glean any lesson from the failures of that much-beloved church or from its stubborn refusals to listen; instead, you foolishly blame the IC messengers for simply bringing you the news. It's arrogant to assume that IC has some special responsibility of biased reporting on behalf of you and your anti-reform cohorts that it does not have on behalf of others. Bí i do dhúiseacht agus ag bolú an chaife, a chara!

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eiriamach | Apr 16, 2011, 05:19 AM EDT

Further, Jacers, it may be a matter of church teaching to you, but it is just offensive to me (and others probably) to read in your posting "the central core of Christ’s mission, its central tenets and His instructions to specific people (all men)..." It is just as painful to read of your "deliberate discrimination" against gays and your insistence that your religion requires these rejections of other human beings whom Christ considered equally worthy. You should expect that those of us who cherish justice, particularly we who have had to struggle for equal treatment, will object to such put downs, which remind us of the discrimination we suffered, which men often enough rationalized as "Catholic teaching." And then you flash the ultimate Catholic weapon in your words about your cohorts: "some have much Christian authority." Will you ever see how un-Christian, how anti-Christian, it is to assert "authority" when you have failed to convince us by appeals to fact, reason, and revelation? How many centuries had to pass before the pope apologized to Galileo for using "authority" to imprison him and suppress his proof of a heliocentric universe? And still RCC continues anti-medical science, anti-female, anti-gay, anti-Semitic, and pro-CENSORSHIP--and you help put these "anti's" into practice here while you plead for IC to censor the news.

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eiriamach | Apr 16, 2011, 05:14 AM EDT

I'm also happy to hear from JuneAnnette. I respect her approach to dealing with IC posters. She replies reasonably, based on published evidence that anyone can find and examine. Does she see, however, that she's dealing with people (edmicca, Gearoid4 on another page) who cannot acknowledge that anything CAN count as evidence against their positions? This is the definition of fanaticism-- not faith-- but a refusal to take in evidence that might cast doubt on anything that they believe, even about their priests (mere human beings). It is a useful dialogue, however, because it makes clear to the rest of us how far beyond the pale of rationality they are. Jacersagain, I don't see any indication that IC is set up as a Catholic site although there are Catholic blogs elsewhere on the 'net. The Irish have known for millennia that a life lived in the spirit is richer, more gratifying, than a life ensnared in material values. IC does reflect that Irish cultural value, which many of us share. But it's time for you to realize and to respect the fact that many Irish have fled the Roman church to find that living spirit elsewhere, just as they found it thousands of years before the arrival of St. Patrick. We can no longer assume that a person of Irish heritage is Catholic. It's a diverse world out there. Please do not oppress us with your insistence that we must all believe the same as you.

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jacersagain | Apr 15, 2011, 08:33 PM EDT

Hopefully it will be clear that, amongst others strong things, all I am saying is that if Niall O’Dowd, for whom I have great respect in many other things, chooses to use his ICentral website as a platform to unjustifiably denigrate and ridicule the same Catholic Church that he and I were baptised and confirmed in, then he and his journalists and cohort anti-Catholic respondents should be prepared to accept justified rebuttals. IMHO, Niall should ‘up’ the standard of his websites’ stories to be more reflective of wider factual matters, properly balanced. A former ICentral poster, who called himself Watchman, could advise him on that. >> It is sadly reflective of Irish Central that the erstwhile Watchman, a superb writer and thinker who made excellently-written and excellently-considered posts on ICentral, dropped out of contributing to ICentral debates because of the nonsense in most of its articles and ... worse!... because of the disgusting language of many responses generated by those articles. >> BTW eiriamach – I never leave a Catholic Church without lighting at least two candles burning during my private prayers, said totally trusting in Jesus, all responded to wonderfully in ways I would have never expected in my words of prayer. I also light scented candles in my home quite often... but those are for less spiritual reasons... :-) May God be with eiriamach, Niall O'Dowd, me and all of us... and stuff Satan and his evil cohorts.

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jacersagain | Apr 15, 2011, 08:27 PM EDT

(...more) Yet, I am one of quite a few millions of native Irish Catholics whom some call ‘the silent majority’ – and I’m one of the few millions of at least one billion non-Irish Catholics everywhere on this planet. For some odd reason, I am spurred into not being prepared to see spurious anti-Catholic Church articles on ICentral go unchallenged - the ones trashing the goodness of my and our Christ’s Church with selective reports, plagiarised by Irish Central from other pointedly selected sources, for reading by perhaps many millions of Irish-Americans and other Irish-countries. Many other posters to these kinds of debates equally see the trend of anti-Catholic sentiment in Irish Central articles and stand up to say so too, some have much Christian authority, in case you haven’t noticed... [D’ya know what? -- I’d be wondering to myself, after reading such comments, if that person is a priest, a theologian, a nun, a bishop, a Cardinal or a normal living fellow-human being, an unrecognised living saint of God in our midst, writing on Irish Central?” saying these smashingly beautiful factual things.]

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JuneAnnette | Apr 15, 2011, 08:09 PM EDT

jacersagain . . in conclusion . . I now can say in truth and with confidence that I KNOW THE LORD and this knowledge I have gained through the revelation of Jesus Christ given me by God in His precious Word. “And we know that the Son of God has come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20) “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. . . “ (Rom. 1:16) I trust in Christ alone who declared at the Cross of Calvary “It is finished.” (John 19:30) “and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins!” (Matt. 1:21) “But by the grace of God I am what I am.” (1 Cor. 15:10) - - June Annette, a sinner by birth; a Roman Catholic by tradition, made a Christian by virtue of the new birth!

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jacersagain | Apr 15, 2011, 07:59 PM EDT

I had a bit of a chuckle when I read eiriamach’s comment below and the use of ‘weary’ in it. I think I was the one who used that word first in relation to eiri’s own (honest, but what I think is mis-directed) persistence in barking up the wrong tree and how I was growing weary of his/her flailing (yes, that’s flailing, not failing) attempts to justify what cannot be truthfully justified or attained – so the comment below is an unoriginal comeback *Bizzzz*. Jesus was wearied too - nice (or not?) to feel that emotion in common, eh? > At least eiri’ and I agree on the need for reforms in the way the Roman Catholic Church goes about its governance and all that entails. What does not change and what cannot change is the central core of Christ’s mission, its central tenets and His instructions to specific people (all men) and the belief in the Christ which the Roman, Orthodox and other Eastern Christian Churches, all with their roots tied back to the events in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, are charged by none other than Jesus Christ with spreading throughout the whole world. All those Churches have done and continue to do so. I recognise my limitations in being able to do that because I am just an ordinary guy, an ordinary Irish Catholic, so un-special you wouldn’t notice me in the street. Yet... (More...)

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JuneAnnette | Apr 15, 2011, 07:36 PM EDT

jacersagain . . in conclusion . . I now can say in truth and with confidence that I KNOW THE LORD and this knowledge I have gained through the revelation of Jesus Christ given me by God in His precious Word. “And we know that the Son of God has come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth . . . " (Rom. 1:16) “But by the grace of God I am what I am.” (1 Cor. 15:10) - - June Annette, a sinner by birth; a Roman Catholic by tradition, made a Christian by virtue of the new birth!

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