199 Comments

• seamus60 | May 30, 2012, 09:17 PM EDT

  That may depend on whether there is an Arab running in the next elections. Just a big tadd more obvious in Girwood.

• IrelandNorth | May 30, 2012, 07:58 AM EDT

  If Belfast City Council's housing policy is remotely like Dublin's (DCC's), expect to see ethnic minorities being prioritised over native inhabitants of the respective cities. A Local Authority tenant colleague of mine tells me he now has Arabic neighbours in the same house to him in Dubin 8, despite an average 7 year waiting list for Dubliner's? Seems DCC is working ovetime to please its European political paymasters in Brussels. Might BCC be doing the same.

• seamus60 | May 25, 2012, 08:35 PM EDT

  I hope Niall can see his way to running an article on this very important subject.

• seamus60 | May 25, 2012, 07:50 PM EDT

  They now attempt to say they can not release information on the issue because its part of a master plan. lol Thety are committed to integrated housing but there will be one set of homes for Catholics and another set for Protestants at the far side of the site. They don`t know how many houses or can`t say due to the master plan. They should have remained totally committed to the origonal 200 homes promised to Catholics who after all are suffering a cronic shortage in the area. Sf are now saying there will be other homes further down the line. Great news for their constituents already waiting years only to see what they were promised handed over to Protestants not even on the housing list. Ruling by Fooling. Its as well they are all going south for the Ardhess.

• seanomelbourne | May 25, 2012, 07:39 PM EDT

  Yes Seamus there seems to be a certain amount of duplicity and not much has changed for the people of north Belfast since the GFA.

• RedBranch | May 25, 2012, 05:50 PM EDT

  I liked this quote from an analyst "Here's Sinn Fein's problem...the more they succeed on the equality agenda, the less Catholics want a united Ireland."

• seamus60 | May 25, 2012, 07:50 AM EDT

  Seano. The problem this time with the Gerry Mandering is, it appears to be a joint venture between SF and the DUP. With both of them failing to put anyone forward with any explanation not containing complete jibberish. They have been caught out interfeering with the due process. The same one they tell us to have faith in. The people in North Belfast want answers from those who claim to be doing a great job of representing them. Yet shy away when back room deals are exposed.

• maireadinmelb | May 24, 2012, 10:00 PM EDT

  Been a busy few days at work and interesting to see the movement of the discussion - but Dano - you don't defeat a terrorist by becoming a terrorist! That is what britain Israel and the US have all done!

• seanomelbourne | May 24, 2012, 06:42 PM EDT

  The more things change the more they stay the same Seamus

• seanomelbourne | May 24, 2012, 06:41 PM EDT

  SEAMUS60 The more things change the more they stay the same.

• seamus60 | May 24, 2012, 02:58 PM EDT

  We still have internment and now it appears Gerry mandering is also alive and well, with the Housing executive ( formed to ensure housing was allocated to those most in need regardless of creed) 2012 and they have been politically nibbled, so much they have sent out brouchers inviting protestants back into an area with only 3 protestants on a waiting list, to avail of new houses in the area without regard to hundreds of Catholic families already on a waiting list and living in the area. An exercise in ensuring there are enough Protestants remaining in the area to retain a certain DUP representaion geographically. People took to the streets in protest on the very same issue in 1969.

• sirpeter | May 23, 2012, 11:12 PM EDT

  RedBranch.Yeah well.We are neighbours and they are Our ranting,gibbering lunatics.We understand them alright.Why do they think they are extra special ranting,gibbering lunatics over the rest of us.

• RedBranch | May 23, 2012, 05:45 PM EDT

  What ever happens political and other life in Northern Ireland will continue to be anything but normal. No matter which country, UK or Rep. of Ireland, has custody of this beleagured province they should not, in the words of veteran Northern commentator Kevin Myers, 'expect to understand Northern Ireland, because you won't: simply remember that you are manacled to this ranting, gibbering lunatic for ever.'

• IrelandNorth | May 23, 2012, 07:46 AM EDT

  Gentlemen! We're discussing symptoms rather than the disease. The question is: Does a duly elected parliament have a right to vote the constitution by which it was elected into extinction? If the Act of Union, 1800/'01 between Great Britain and Ireland was brought about by unconstitutional means, where does that leave the downsized version of it a century later? If a 19th century British Government threatened pacifist Daniel O'Connell with military violence to call off his peaceful mass meetings, is a violent counter-reaction really unsurprising either then or now? To understand all IS to forgive all. Injustice and oppression germinate violence and aggression.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 23, 2012, 05:12 AM EDT

  Sirpete - As to another ‘coercive treaty’, I don’t know how relevant any vote will be, history moves in great tidal flows, and Europe is seeing the tide falling, just as it’s rising in the east…The Euro experiment seems to be tearing the continent apart, how bad it will get is anybody’s guess…Of course the legitimate campaign for UI goes on…it’s just that few people see it as much of a priority in these turbulent times, and who can blame them? I don’t see the rise of SF as contiguous with this, more a protest against recent corrupt and ruinous FF policies. As for paramilitaries and their ‘moral choices’, well we all have to make choices in life…and I cannot see what’s moral about leaving a bomb in a crowded shopping street…and I never will…under the surface NI seems a more ‘foreign’ place today than ever, a ‘prize’ hardly worth the effort…so if and when the unionists are ‘coerced’ into a UI, how will this large group of ‘new citizens’ contribute to the future of the country? The brightest will jump ship…leaving many embittered, unemployable and disaffected flute players on their drug-ridden reservations…welcome to the future?

• sirpeter | May 22, 2012, 07:59 PM EDT

  Dano.Like the Native Americans every treaty signed by the Irish people was coercion due to the threat of war or the escalation of war or to ease violence in Ireland.The vast majority of any society are Uncle Toms because they would rather live with peace and injustice than fight and be free.Republican ideals were never rejected by the Irish people,but people fear violence against a superior power.Republican ideals are alive and well as can be seen by the rise of Sinn Fein.See Dano there still is a campaign for a United Ireland.It's just ballot box time again.When reunification comes and it will eventually.Because it makes economic sense.I don't believe the hardline loyalists will be strong enough to take up arms.They have too small an area and no support outside Ireland.They won't have the British army either.In saying that each loyalist who didn't sign up to the GFA can give it their best shot if they morally believe they are right.At least the paramilitaries in NI make an individual,informed moral choice to resist using violence or not as the case may be.Can the same be said of a conventional army?How can it be moral to draft a person for war or coerce that person to kill using lies as in the case of a million dead Iraqis.When a rich and powerful country use violence and lies to achieve their aims,thats fine.When the peasants get uppity they are terrorists,thugs,troublemakers,zealots,murders ect.Why? Just because the rich and powerful didn't give them the go ahead.And here we are again forced to sign a the fiscal treaty while our backs are against the wall under threat of financial doom for the country.I'm no Uncle Tom and I will be voting NO!!Because I didn't like the Irish no vote been ignored by Europe in the Lisbon treaty.Dano I'll fight.You can stay at home and mind the kids. ;))

• seanomelb | May 22, 2012, 05:56 PM EDT

  Dano there is nothing I can add to Sirpeter,s dissertation except to repeat you're anti Irish and use a puerile "tit for tat" styled argument to "weaken" your argument.Your like a child!! my gun is bigger than your gun!!your oppression is better than my oppression!!LOL

• cynicus | May 22, 2012, 03:19 PM EDT

  Sirpeter talks a lot of rot! I note he emulates the British practise of creating a 'Sir.' Is this for self-aggrandisement or to impress the 'troops?' Would his 'unsavoury instances' include the murder of women and children and the burying of murder victims in a bog? Or the murder of comrades on the false word of a British spy high up in the IRA ranks? A spy that is now as free as a bird? Or bombing two young boys to death? This sort of brutal fanaticism is the usual reason for dastardly deeds and unspeakable cruelty - all in the name of 'freeing Ireland.' Which freedom never happens, no matter what amount of murder is carried out. Ireland needs to be freed alright - especially from the hate-filled and bitter dinosaurs who still advocate murder in the name of Ireland. Your day has come and gone; the good people of Ireland do not care a fig for all the old bull***t that led to pointless murder and mayhem. Time to get over the old bitterness and get real. See how Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness have grown up and accepted reality. A bit late, I admit, but that's the way with slow learners.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 22, 2012, 12:27 PM EDT

  Sirpete – Your rationale ‘if only one person wants to continue’ means that all future actions by these self-appointed ‘keepers of the republican flame’ are legitimised…this is despite the signing of the original treaty, the GFA and the fact that most Irishmen have rejected republican zealotry at all times since 1921… … de Valera, as elected head of Ireland, came down very hard on the wartime collaborationist IRA…the ending of sectarian unionist Stormont hegemony was the time to push for reunification, backed by a peaceful democratic pan-Irish campaign… Pushing any government worthy of the name to have its citizens coerced by the actions of unelected, unrepresentative minorities, no matter who or what they claim to represent was totally counterproductive… and the stark truth is that all the ‘so-called’ republican ‘campaigns’ have driven the two parts of Ireland further apart than any unionist could dream of…a legacy that will increasingly become apparent, even to the most fundamentalist of ‘so-called’ republican apologists

• DanOLoingsigh | May 22, 2012, 12:21 PM EDT

  Seano – It was a simple question…but you declined to give a straight answer…like many ‘so-called’ republicans, you have no problem with attacks on unionists, but can’t accept the consequences of those attacks…

• chicksooze | May 22, 2012, 11:24 AM EDT

  sirpeter has it right. abhainn, Irish Patriots hold Bobby Sands in high esteem as they should. He was a true Patriot/freedom fighter and stood up for what he believed in to the death. Thatcher was an evil **** for allowing him to die, so to hell with you.

• seamus60 | May 22, 2012, 10:27 AM EDT

  Well said sir Peter.

• seamus60 | May 22, 2012, 10:00 AM EDT

  Abhainn. Dresdon people will be glad to hear your first point. I will agree that the human bomb tactic used with Patsy Gillispie as the victim was orchastrated by brit intel and those within the RA who wanted the people to expess not in their name. As for cowards, is that what it takes to starve oneself to death for a belief ?

• abhainn | May 22, 2012, 09:39 AM EDT

  Seamus60, you must be easily confused because the easy distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists is that freedom fighters do not indiscriminately murder innocent civilian bystanders with bombs, nor do they deliberately target innocent civilians to strike fear and conformity into the community, nor do they force innocent drivers to convey massive bombs in their cars to army border checkpoints, and then detonate those bombs. The list of examples of evil IRA murderous thuggery stretches endlessly over more than 30 years; it is a litany of shame and horror. Freedom fighters are noble people; the IRA were sick and vicious cowards. True Irish patriots denounce the IRA for what they did to Ireland for so long, before they were defeated, so it was all futile. Nothing was achieved that could not have been gained by civil means. Nothing; and all the IRA have left us is a legacy of horror, profound personal and social damage, and deep pain. You are not an Irish patriot, Seamus60.

• sirpeter | May 22, 2012, 06:24 AM EDT

  Seano. That's what they always try and do. "muddy the waters" They will try and drag the argument into the dirty business that is fighting for human rights and freedom by picking unsavory instances that are bound to happen when an injustice occurs.Stick to the bigger picture when it comes to NI.The illegal partitioning of Ireland and the entrapment of Republicans in 1920 justifies all resistance to anyone who upholds British authority in NI.Even if only one person continues to resist.That person still has the moral right as an individual to try and achieve the reunification of Ireland and to free himself by any means that he sees fit.Irish people have made a "choice" to except the GFA.The question is would the Americans except the GFA if part of their country was partitioned.Like hell they would.NI would have got a dose of freedom and the Brits and anyone who didn't like it would have walked away.

• seanomelb | May 21, 2012, 09:05 PM EDT

  It's about the British lies that they did not have a policy and Stalker proved the opposite. Trying to "muddy the waters" Dano with your usual anti-Irish rhetoric.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 21, 2012, 06:00 PM EDT

  seanomelb - Let me get this right...if a cop kills a 'dissident' that's unlawful, but if a 'dissident' kills a cop, that's 'engaging the enemy'...is that your position?

• aloistmartin | May 21, 2012, 05:34 PM EDT

  If Bobby Sands were Alive Today Sinn Fein would be an Outlawed Political Party '

• seamus60 | May 21, 2012, 12:14 PM EDT

  Abhainn. Terrorists ???? would that be the ones patriots normally call freedom fighters.

• seanomelb | May 20, 2012, 07:10 PM EDT

  Realist either you're ignorant of the facts or proactively rewriting history.Stalker delivered his interim report stating that 5 dissidents were UNLAWFULLY killed. The British were furious with the findings and brought Sampson in to investigate Stalker(Stalker never worked with Sampson) and take over the investigation. Stalker was demonised by the British establishment and hounded by them for many years.Sampson's did his masters bidding and tabled the report they wanted, like a good little puppet. What else would you like to know I'm only to happy to broaden your horizons.

• abhainn | May 20, 2012, 06:51 PM EDT

  Niall O'Dowd, you don't seem to realise how ugly you reveal yourself to be when you write that the "frequent atrocities and bombings were totally counterproductive". Those atrocities were murders of innocent passers by, civilians caught up in the IRA's ugly campaign of indiscriminate murder and terrorism. And you weigh that moral evil and conclude it was merely "counterproductive"? Terrorists thrive when the community contains people like you. Bobby Sands was a bloody fool whose selfish actions inflamed violence in Ireland. You also reveal how you allowed yourself to be manipulated by Bobby Sands: you were "inflamed" by what you describe as "what Margaret Thatcher allowed to happen" but it was Sands's decision to starve himself to death. What did you want Thatcher to do: force feed him? Sands made his choice and it created a horrifying crisis in Irish society. To hell with him. Irish patriots reject his insane actions.

• Realist | May 20, 2012, 01:15 PM EDT

  seamus60: Lol...still scanning the internet trying to scrape together any little scrap of hearsay, gossip, or derogatory opinion on Robert Bradford? For a man who claims to condemn murder, you certainly seem bent on justifying this one. As for the rest of your post - conspiracy theory punctuated with speculation.

• seamus60 | May 20, 2012, 09:30 AM EDT

  Realist. Bradford neither advocated nor practiced the denial of anyone's human rights????? As long as you don`t want to remember events like that in Horn Drive in 1970. Where the few catholic families living there were burned from their homes in the middle of the night by a hostile crowd of loyalists amongst them the REV himself, whilst even the british army looked on. You are in total denial as to what the system was, rotten to the core. The rotten system where we may never know just how far the REV was prepared to go to retain the statusquo. You atempt to make milage from stalker etc to defend the rotten system. The same system that set up such inquiries where those being investigated had the right to decline participation, where the investigaters had to move mountains to get anywhere near rooms full of intel which then mysteriously caught fire destroying all. Stevens was to follow and for his opinion on the restraints of his own remit he was character asassinated. Your own REV had obviously become a threat to god only knows who and needed taken out of the picture. The Castlereagh breakin being the final part of the clean up operation. More so to cover up republicans in simular dirty deeds.

• Realist | May 20, 2012, 05:47 AM EDT

  maireadinmelb: To return to my original point....you stated that you consider those who mistreat their POWs as terrorists. In response, I asked if you consider the Provisional IRA, who took no prisoners and "executed" their victims, to be terrorists. Now for the third time of asking, will you please answer?

• Realist | May 20, 2012, 05:41 AM EDT

  seanomelb: My friend, you only have to go as far as Wikipedia....the Stalker/Sampson inquiry team also stated in June 1990 that "the Greater Manchester officers wish to stress that the Stalker/Sampson Enquiry found no evidence of a 'Shoot to Kill policy'". Therefore, I ask again, would you please quote one internationally recognized legal or governmental source that states, with evidence, that the United Kingdom Government operated a so-called "shoot-to-kill" policy in Northern Ireland?

• Realist | May 20, 2012, 04:25 AM EDT

  maireadinmelb: Robert Bradford was never a member of any government and neither advocated nor practiced the denial of anyone's human rights. Your comments read like a justification for murder. "you sew what you reap"? Once more, this callous and worryingly naive comment seems to support the murder of one democratically elected MP by the comrades of another. Therefore I ask again, do you or do you not condemn the murder of Robert Bradford MP?

• acooney | May 20, 2012, 12:15 AM EDT

  I agree with maireadinmelb, bradford was part of a disgusting injust government and he got what was coming to him. It's called karma. The only people who considered the IRA terrorists were the Brits, the IRA got help in the form of financing and guns from the USA, so they hardly thought of them as terrorists and in the Republic of Ireland they were considered Freedom Fighters as they should be. I think Realist has the facts all wrong.

• seanomelb | May 19, 2012, 07:24 PM EDT

  Realist!! I commend you to John Stalker's report proving a shoot to kill policy and his vilification by the British for not giving the report they expected.Stalker's report was legal (commissioned by the British) and recognised by everyone accept the British terrorist regime.Any other questions???

• maireadinmelb | May 19, 2012, 07:19 PM EDT

  ANd further to the shoot to kill question - I dont rely on offical British government sources, but Bloody sunday, Majella OHare prove shoot to kill. ANd then you a bloke called Stalker - he disappeared quickly - Why was that????

• maireadinmelb | May 19, 2012, 07:17 PM EDT

  REalist I turned the question on you - Bradford part of a government who denies human rights, why should they expect people behave in a democratic and fair way - you sew what you reap! Further you basic premise is wrong, at difference times in his life Bobby was held without charge or conviction, and there was nothing fair or democratic in the process that resulted in his hunger strike!

• seamus60 | May 19, 2012, 03:20 PM EDT

  I condem all murder as well

• Realist | May 19, 2012, 03:11 PM EDT

  I condemn all murder and I hope I'm not alone in so doing.

• seamus60 | May 19, 2012, 01:04 PM EDT

  Realist do you condem the murder of vols though armed beyond threat ?

• Realist | May 19, 2012, 07:38 AM EDT

  maireadinmelb: Please read the questions carefully....Do you believe that Robert Sands MP, who was arrested, tried, sentenced, imprisoned, and then chose to take his own life, had more or less legal and human rights consideration than Robert Bradford MP who was "executed" at close range with a hand gun by a man in a mask (a fellow 'volunteer' of Mr Sands in the Provisional IRA)? I am concerned....your last comment seems to support the murder of one democratically elected MP by the comrades of another. Please be clear on this, do you or do you not condemn the murder of Robert Bradford MP?

• Realist | May 19, 2012, 07:21 AM EDT

  maireadinmelb: You seem a little confused....we already have your perspective and you were very clear (I can print it again if you're planning on denying it)....you stated that you consider those who mistreat their POWs as terrorists. In response, I asked if you consider the Provisional IRA, who took no prisoners and "executed" their victims, to be terrorists. Will you please answer?

• Realist | May 19, 2012, 06:20 AM EDT

  seanomelb: Would you please quote one internationally recognized legal or governmental source that states, with evidence, that the United Kingdom Government operated a so-called "shoot-to-kill" policy in Northern Ireland?

• maireadinmelb | May 19, 2012, 01:27 AM EDT

  Definition of terrorism depends on your perspective, to GW Bush anyone who disagrees with america is a terrorist! to you its the ira! To me the soldier who hid behind a bush a shot 12 year old majella ohare on her way to church and the government who allowed that soldier not to be punished are terrorists!! ITs all perspective! Did you say earlier that Bradford was an MP? An Mp who supported laws that breached the human rights of others? Well on your logic he is no better than the IRA!! Or the GREAT Bobby Sands MP!

• maireadinmelb | May 19, 2012, 01:22 AM EDT

  Realist tell me of the Human rights of 12 year old Majella O'Hare shot by a soldier, who was never investigated let alone charged... She was unarmed walking to church! When a government can do this what do they expect the people to do?

• seamus60 | May 18, 2012, 08:00 PM EDT

  I just can`t get to terms with how the french resistance were able to imprison all their prisoners but thats just more whataboutry.

• seanomelb | May 18, 2012, 07:45 PM EDT

  The Army also executed British soldiers or Hessian mercenaries which the British use to do their dirty work.It is matter of record that the IRA took no prisoners and in most cases disarmed them and sent them on their way quivering at the knees. I notice you fail to mention the British policy of "shoot to kill" your argument bears no merit.

• Realist | May 18, 2012, 05:05 PM EDT

  maireadinmelb: Lol....the American Continental Army of the 1770s & 1780s wore uniforms, took prisoners, and faced the British openly in the field - not behind balaclavas or resting safely across a foreign border. Throughout the 'Troubles' the 'heroes' of the Provisional IRA were proscribed as a known terrorist organisation in the U.K., the U.S., and the Republic of Ireland. You mention "hypocrisy" and I'm glad you are familiar with that word. I have already quoted you as labelling those that mistreat their POWs as terrorists. It is a matter of record that the Provisional IRA took no prisoners - they simply "executed" their victims. Therefore, do you consider them to be terrorists? If not, please explain. Also, would you please share your feelings on how Robert Bradford's legal and human rights were respected by Robert Sands' fellow 'volunteers' in the Provisional IRA?

• seamus60 | May 18, 2012, 07:09 AM EDT

  DAN....Between October 2010 and September 2011 the PPS issued 11,933 letters informing victims’ families that prosecutions were being abandoned or charges against defendants were being reduced. Released today by the Detail TV appears in Nuzhound. Mr Mc Grory was quick to point out recently that the charges against Marian Price and others will be reinstalled by another means. The same Mr Mc Grory who has just spent in excess of 10 million pounds on a supergrass trial (from a totally discredited system in our past)that was deemed to failure from inception.Regardless of who the accused were, wrong was wrong and so remains. The PPS are not prepared to meet these families due to Health and Safety reasons. Could their excuses be that pathetic they fear family members will turn violent. It is amazing that any body such as the PPS would deem victims family members a possable threat to any ones well being. What ever happened to accountability in this system you defend that is intent on progressing with failed tactics.

• seanomelb | May 17, 2012, 07:26 PM EDT

  Dano is deliberately misreading my post or he just doesn't get it. The nationalist party led by McIntyre/Fitt tried to bring about peaceful change for 70years only to be snubbed by the bigoted unionists and the British and not to mention the civil right marches when the brave bully boys of the RUC/B Specials looked on and laughed when the marchers were set upon by bat wielding orangemen HENCE the armed struggle. Thank you again for demeaning the nationalist of the north whom you obviously loathe.BTW maybe you should consider the downward spiral in Terence O'Neill's political career when he tried to steer unionism down a moderate road. Your argument is weak and dishonest.

• seamus60 | May 17, 2012, 06:25 PM EDT

  Dan you`re slipping back into a position you apologised for earlier. Internment ended in a particular form only to be replaced with another called diplock. Where a loaded dice was in play against the Nationalist population. So many nationalist arrests, torture and charges advanced with little or no evidence. With accepted back logs running into years before any evidence woould pass the eyes of any judge in the form of depositions. A system that was deliberately over whelmed and led to great misscarrages of justice going unnoticed by even many defence barristers. Not that it would have mattered. Bail was always at the approival of the sectarian RUC. Forensics went uncontested in mass due to special powers, the list is endless yet you say it was not a form of internment. The same one that is straight out of Kitsons recommendations. As I said earlier you`re slipping backwards in relation to the attitude some one interested in conflict resolution, if genuine should be endorsing. I think the most recent judge dealing with Marian has decided he no longer wants to be part of a case that has turned into a total sham. One in which he has resigned himself not to end up the fall guy.

• maireadinmelb | May 17, 2012, 05:30 PM EDT

  Today - THere are still Diplock courts- undemocratic, the parliament is still a power sharing government! Ireland is still not one nation! After the last 40 years of british rule would you really want them to continue to be in charge!! knowing they will just change the law to suit their political motives!! Read up on teh case of Corporal Jones, a british soldier shot by Francis Hughes. His soon to be wife and mother fought over his estate - the british High courts in London found he died in war and his last minute oral declaration of a will was valid because it was war! At the same time Bobby and Francis and the others were rotting in h blocks on the basis of Criminalisation and normalisation on thatchers view that it was not a war!!

• DanOLoingsigh | May 17, 2012, 09:44 AM EDT

  Seamus…In custody awaiting trial is not internment…The Price case is just the latest ‘poster campaign’ by the ‘fundamentalists’…I would be more concerned for the ordinary citizens, rather than those who advocate and encourage more mayhem…who speaks for them?

• DanOLoingsigh | May 17, 2012, 09:39 AM EDT

  Seano – The constitutionalists would be the SDLP, Alliance Party, moderate unionists, and also the two sovereign governments… these groups were not forced towards negotiations, they were waiting patiently at the table for your heroes, and those on the other side, to give up their pointless campaigns…

• DanOLoingsigh | May 17, 2012, 09:36 AM EDT

  Maireadinmelb –the Unionist Parliament was closed down in 1972, internment was abandoned in 1975 when the final internees were released…so how do you explain the continued campaign, and what were the aims?

• seanomelb | May 16, 2012, 07:17 PM EDT

  Very true cillowen when the bankers are feeling the pinch their patriotism flies out the window.Never mind God save the Queen, God save the pound is more important.

• maireadinmelb | May 16, 2012, 05:04 AM EDT

  So let me get this straight Dano, It is totally ok for a government to not follow democratic principles it purports to support to the rest of the world, to shoot people in the streets and to intern people without trial, but people who are victims of this oppression are not allowed to fight back??? Which way do you want it?? WHile a negotiated peace may be preferable, it is hard to negotiate when you are ignored and oppressed, denied access to employment and imprisoned for no reason! There was no other option but to take up arms!! And if it was not for the taking up of those arms NI would still be a Unionist Parliament for a Unionist people!!

• seanomelb | May 15, 2012, 08:06 PM EDT

  Dano you make a false and weak argument you sort of paraphrase what I say by changing a few words. You still condone the terrorist state that existed before the GFA and the failure of the British to curb the excesses of the Unionists who had control.What "constitutionalists" do you refer to and what did they achieve??

• seamus60 | May 15, 2012, 07:44 PM EDT

  Dan No country in the world should allow the practice of a police officer (regardless of rank)to go before a judge and have some one imprisoned on the strength of his belief. But at this time it is the establishment in the North that interns Marian Price and as so requires priority. Please examine Kitsons reccomendations and his wording. He clearly referrs to those to be imprisoned by back room tactics as(unwanted members of the public)when even back then known IRA personnel were referred to as PLAYERS. Are we to assume that he is implying ordinary members of the public were to be included. Perhaps as a means of letting people know that they were open game, even through association of thought. Why do you think support for anti agreement groups are on the rise. Many people are beginning to relise the great new democrecy is not so differant to the bad old one.

• seamus60 | May 15, 2012, 07:03 PM EDT

  Sirpeter thats what its there for. lol

• DanOLoingsigh | May 15, 2012, 06:51 PM EDT

  Seamus - I am unable to find the words you quote in the Gardiner report…the Special Criminal Court is the southern equivalent…

• sirpeter | May 15, 2012, 06:44 PM EDT

  seamus60.Isn't Wiki great all the same ;))

• howareya | May 15, 2012, 12:51 PM EDT

  Oh Ciara, give it a rest will ya? The only 2 posts you have put on here is to bash the Catholic Church...again. Contribute something worthwhile..we all know how you feel about the church.

• seamus60 | May 15, 2012, 12:30 PM EDT

  Diplock courts. N.Ireland. 1972. The transition from Internment to Diplock Courts was the culmination of a series of proposals put forth by Brigadier Frank Kitson. Kitson’s work appeared to be a blend of sociological ‘normalisation’, political policy and legal plasticity. In Kitson’s book on counter-insurgency published in 1970, he advocated for the Courts to be used as another part of the Army’s arsenal in the fight against insurgents. He argued: …the Law should be used as just another weapon in the government’s arsenal, and in this case it becomes little more than a propaganda cover for the disposal of unwanted members of the public. For this to happen efficiently, the activities of the legal services have to be tied into the war effort in as discreet a way as possible...[ In his report, Kenneth Diplock, Baron Diplock, cited two primary reasons for his determination that jury trials should be suspended, 1) danger of perverse acquittals, and, 2) jurors had been threatened, "of which we have had ample evidence".[14] THEN.Two years later Lord Gardiner’s review, of the removal of Trial by Jury, unconvincingly attempts to bolster Diplock’s findings as follows; We are convinced on the evidence that we have received, that if juries were to be reintroduced for scheduled offences, their verdicts would still be subject to the influences of intimidation, or the fear of it. We have no evidence of this or of perversity in juries...[15] The Gardiner Report found that “no evidence” existed on which the removal of the jury was based but concluded that non-jury trials should continue. DAN.... No evidence produced but he recommended the system stay in place because of the evidence produced. How much more can anything be flawed. Kitson had his way, I think the new term for it is by stelph.

• seamus60 | May 15, 2012, 11:06 AM EDT

  Dan, "Jurers could be intimidated" falls way short of "Jurers were intimidated". Perpetrators are now being paid compensation because of illegal arrests, Inhumain detention and torture resulting in unfair convictions by these special courts you say where in existance because of jurers being threatened. The whole exercise of abusive british injustice above was always a sure way of keeping PIRA recruitment levels healthy regardless of other big atrocities like Bloody Sunday and its subsequent injustices. Very few young men and woman joined the ranks of the PIRA with the aspiration to a UI that stemmed from a Republican family tradition. Britian and those in power in the North changed that. They just kept pouring petrol on the flames.

• sirpeter | May 15, 2012, 10:17 AM EDT

  Dano.By your reasoning any armed campaign is pointless.I think ordinary people understand and are happy to except democracy.But Dano NI was not a democracy.It was a Protestant dominated apartheid statelet.If you can honestly say it was a democracy then you might have a point.People have a right to march and protest peacefully in a democracy.But they were shot and killed.Who were the anti-democratic zealots there?Dano democracy has to be seen to be democratic.It's easy to say a campaign was pointless.It's wasn't the preferred option.But with NI at the time I didn't see any other option.The PIRA brought world attention and that was the beginning of the end for the Billy Boys and their good times.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 15, 2012, 06:49 AM EDT

  Maireadinmelb – you try to have it both ways…the ‘armed campaign’ was justified, but when apprehended, perpetrators were unjustly convicted…jury trials were suspended due to intimidation of jury members - by your friends…and you have to keep up the charade to justify your continued support of the ‘anti-democratic’ zealots who try to maintain their pointless campaign…

• maireadinmelb | May 15, 2012, 04:15 AM EDT

  the definition of terrorism depends on your perspective! COnsider the american men who fought against the british control of the usa in 1770 and there abouts founding the good old USA. On the modern definition they are terrorists - to americans they are heroes - so to the IRA to many. IF you lived in belfast or derry as a catholic (not necessarily a nationalist) you were treated as a second class citizen. The criminal actions by the government of the day when people initially protested for their human rights (much like african americans in america at the same time) raised the stakes. FOr every victim of IRA violence you name I can name a victim of government sanctioned violence by the brits!!!! The treatment of POWs was an example of the many ways that Britain has not lived up to teh standards it expects of everyone else. Bobby Sands trial was a diplock court. He and his representatives could be asked to leave the court while evidence against him was presented - how can you defend your self or your client against that! Further there was no jury there was no consideration to the false confessions that were often presented to the court after bashings and torture! This restrictions were and are not used in London or in mainland britain as it would be a breach of human rights. The foundation of democracy is that there is no arbitary dentention without conviction by a jury of your peers and an opportunity to defend charges made against you! DIPLOCK courts adn internment without trial (gitmo)are a breach of democracy and human rights! I am not saying that everything that the ira has done has been right, but i will not judge a people when I have not been in their position! I will judge a government who has proved 700 years of hypocracy and a government which purports to support human rights democracy and expects the same but does not practice those principles!!!!

• DanOLoingsigh | May 15, 2012, 04:12 AM EDT

  Seano – You try to airbrush all the years when constitutionalists worked to bring peace to NI, while those who directed the IRA’s campaign did so calmly and coldly, recruiting to their cause young men and women in the foolish belief that violence would produce a British withdrawal and, consequently, a united Ireland. Then again, how else could you justify what was done by your friends, in your name?

• seamus60 | May 14, 2012, 09:19 PM EDT

  OH its all gone quiet up the front.

• seanomelb | May 14, 2012, 07:37 PM EDT

  Thank you Dano for defending the 70yrs. of oppression suffered by northern nationalist.They had to live in a Westminster violent system. Where the British accepted the RUC and the para military terrorist known as the B SPECIALS as the rule of law. Your denial of the gains made by the Armed struggle which culminated in the GFA is typical of the west brit types in our midst. You're almost Monty pythonesque in your posts "don't mention the war"

• seamus60 | May 14, 2012, 09:15 AM EDT

  Realist. Me thinks you are on a fishing expedition, but on who`s behalf ?

• Realist | May 14, 2012, 08:57 AM EDT

  seamus60: Progress....you have again contributed nothing of value but with much less words this time.

• Realist | May 14, 2012, 08:54 AM EDT

  maireadinmelb: Would you please outline in detail why Robert Sands' trial was unfair? Would you care to share your feelings on how Robert Bradford's legal and human rights were respected by Robert Sands' fellow 'volunteers' in the Provisional IRA? Also, on 7th May 2012 @ 05:59 you stated, and I quote, "The USA and British governments are no better than terrorists when they ignore the rules of war and combat!! When they deny POW's their rights!" Given that it has already been conceeded by Seamus60 that the Provisional IRA took no prisoners, by the same token do you consider them to be terrorists? I'm really looking forward to your reply, should you decide to venture one.

• seamus60 | May 14, 2012, 07:08 AM EDT

  Realist think the jury is still out on yourself. Agenda Hmmm.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 14, 2012, 05:52 AM EDT

  maireadinmelb – PIRA and others claimed that the use of violence was legitimate to further their aim…if you agree with them, which you seem to, then you accept that they were in the right; any court, jury or otherwise, must give therefore be wrong to convict them…that’s the whole deal…now you promote RSF and other anti-democratic groups…so do you still claim that legitimacy?

• DanOLoingsigh | May 14, 2012, 05:37 AM EDT

  Seano – The most basic human right, the right to life, was denied to many by the so-called ‘armed struggle’. This campaign was never about human rights, it was clearly to coerce the NI majority, and indeed the people of the whole island, into some variety of the ‘1916 Republic’…with total victory over both unionists and constitutional nationalists…when you stated that the murder of an unarmed prison guard was ‘engaging the enemy’, you demonstrated total disregard for the lives of those who happen to disagree with you…

• maireadinmelb | May 14, 2012, 05:18 AM EDT

  Well here is a fact realist - Bobby Sands was not tried in a democratic process by a jury of his peers! He faced a diplock court without proper rules of evidence and without a proper and fair chance to examine the evidence!! Like many other irish people the validity of the conviction is at least questionable! When the government of the day cannot follow due process and hundreds of years of democratic principles how can you expect the people??? Especially those who are oppressed and have to watch as forces of their own government shoot unarmed people on the street!!!!!

• Realist | May 14, 2012, 04:46 AM EDT

  Back to relevance, the article, the year 1981, and the case of the two Roberts from Belfast. Robert Sands MP and Robert Bradford MP. The facts....Robert Sands was arrested, tried, sentenced, and imprisoned. He then chose to take his own life. Robert Bradford was "executed" at close range by a masked man with a hand gun. That masked man was a fellow 'volunteer' of Robert Sands, in the Provisional IRA. Which Robert enjoyed most respect for their human rights?

• Realist | May 14, 2012, 04:31 AM EDT

  seamus60: Lol....no "whataboutery". Only relevant facts. I have simply compared and contrasted the death of one Belfast man and MP with the death of another Belfast man and MP - both in the same year, 1981 (the year referred to in the article). In response, you have made statements about which I have asked you to substantiate with hard facts. You have failed to do so. Sadly your last post was little more than talking a lot and saying nothing. Any self-respecting secondary school teacher would have put a line straight through it.

• seamus60 | May 13, 2012, 08:52 PM EDT

  Three cheers for Realist. He`s finally catching on to some of the problems with whataboutry. What about you first of all asking me to answer a question for Marian Price. Who am I to do that unless I can source it from her be it directly or indirectly. Asked the same question directed at myself on the subject I gave you an answer of my own to the best of my knowledge. As for Bradford and facts. The facts are that new material is coming to light as with most other serious events ( Omagh as an example). A fact that this new material is pissing in the wind in regards of ever coming to fruition. Fact is you would need to speak to people in that murky old world of intell that you trust enough to defend against human rights abuses such as in Iraq to get at the facts you want. 30 and 40 years later whataboutry will mostlikely never be properly defined as either fact or fiction as there are too many important people hiding in the shadows. Fact is however whats happening right in front of us with a womans human rights being abused. I won`t go into the diplock court thing with you even though the paperwork is there to prove it, too long ago to worry about what it done then. More interested in what its doing now. As for slinging mud, where was that ?. I have an agenda, one that wants to better the whole system for generations to come, if we don`t fix it now our grandchildren will be up to their hawks in whataboutry.

• seanomelb | May 13, 2012, 07:48 PM EDT

  Dano I never stated that basic human rights should not be everyone's right.IT is you minimises or ignores the fact that it was the nationalist population in the north who were denied these rights and only received them after a bloody conflict which forced the bigoted unionist to the negotiating table. And for you to deny the efforts of the nationalists who tried (through the Westminster System) for fair play only to fall on deaf ears in Belfast and London and resort to the gun which was both sad and necessary.The armed struggle was the answer to the British government and her majesty to protect the nationalist population of the north.

• Realist | May 13, 2012, 06:51 PM EDT

  seamus60: Is that it? I did ask for facts, did I not? All I see is clutching at straws and a schoolboy attempt to sling mud. If you have an agenda here, please do us all a favour and just come out of the closet with it.

• seamus60 | May 13, 2012, 06:38 PM EDT

  OK if you`re gonna huff. Try the Cook report (worse than the mafia).... Belfast telegraph 15th April 2007 under heading (MP could have been saved)... The Kincora scandal is also worth a look. It appears rev Bradford had uncovered many things on his travels. As for his connection to the british National Front, who am I to throw any stones. Plenty of glass on my own house.

• Realist | May 13, 2012, 06:37 PM EDT

  seamus60: "victimised"? Not quite....in the words of Ms Price's and Mr Sands' fellow 'volunteers' of the Provisional IRA, the Rev. Bradford was, and I quote, "executed". Any thoughts on his human rights? Again, I return to 1981 and my initial contrast between the self-inflicted death of Bobby Sands MP and the cold blooded murder of Robert Bradford MP. Still no takers?

• Realist | May 13, 2012, 06:22 PM EDT

  seamus60: I agree, very tedious....answers to the questions please, not questions to the questions. Indeed, the number of prisoners taken by the Provisional IRA was zero. Yet again....Would you please tell us why Diplock courts were set up in the first place? Please provide one fact (there's that word again) to substantiate your remarks concerning the murder of Rev. Robert Bradford MP by the Provisional IRA? In the earlier ruling by District Judge McElholm, he ordered the release of the accused as there was no evidence before him owing to the fact that the preliminary inquiry papers were not ready in time. This was as a result of the representatives of one of the accused having written to the court and to the Public Prosecution Service asking that the hearing be downgraded to a mention hearing only. Not, as you stated, because he deemed they had "been held unduly and without any evidence to convict them". That was simply untrue. Nevertheless, I'm sure that convicted terrorist bombers like Ms Price are touched by your unstinting concern for their legal and human rights.

• seamus60 | May 13, 2012, 05:55 PM EDT

  My apoligies REALIST. It was the poor care taker of the club and not the body guard that was victimised along with Bradford. I knew off the top of my head there were 2 fatalities.

• seamus60 | May 13, 2012, 04:34 PM EDT

  So is that Kitsons or Diplocks ? Can you not understand either that my understanding was that the IRA took no prisoners( that I`m aware of) Made quite clear in my last post.You can ask to you`re blue in the face and to be honest the answer will be the same. Getting very tedious. What about that justice thingy we were talking about earlier. What do you think of abusing basic human rights here now today ?

• Realist | May 13, 2012, 03:51 PM EDT

  seamus60: My friend, all I ask is straight answers to straight questions. How many times do I have to ask?

• seamus60 | May 13, 2012, 03:44 PM EDT

  Would you prefer Brigadier Kitsons reason or that of Baron Diplocks which was later discredited but remained. I had no idea that the IRA took any prisoners. On Bradford ,do your own digging as you should have, before bringing him into the dispute. Any thing else you want researched at the expence of some ones elses time and effort ?

• Realist | May 13, 2012, 03:17 PM EDT

  seamus60: My friend, I have asked you a number of quite clear and direct questions regarding the subject outlined in the article and concerning your subsequent comments. So far you have answered none. Therefore, I will ask again....Would you please tell us why Diplock courts were set up in the first place? Would you please remind us how many prisoners Ms Price's organisation (the Provisional IRA) took? Please provide one fact to substantiate your remarks concerning the murder of Rev. Robert Bradford MP by the Provisional IRA? If there is any part or parts of these questions that you do not understand, please let me know....I would be happy to couch them in more pedestrian English. Once again, over to you.

• seamus60 | May 13, 2012, 11:38 AM EDT

  REALIST. Would that be the same due legal process that Human rights groups, politicians (including those responsable for justice) and even the judge at the Derry court house, have all expressed serious concern with. So we should just ignore all of the above in favour of a british secretary of state who is dependant on dirty op intell simular to that which was used to invade Iraq. Where have I ever said that one victim had preference over another ? All human life is sacred. As for Bradford, sorry I don`t have the time to dig out the programme showing the whole dirty affair. As its you who is fixated on Bradford I suggest, with respect you try Spotlight or one of those other investigative programmes. Its also hard to imagine that the family,friends and even former collegues are unaware of the programme as i`m sure former collegues took part. There was some issue with his protection also becoming victim to the incident and all could have been prevented but wasn`t due to intell going into dirty op mode. I sincerely hope that is of help. DAN. Thank you. However I would like to point out that until we are all prepared to accept the failures of the past including justice issues and deal with them it will be hard to put them to bed in order to move on. As for the comparison between ours and the rest of the world. I like to clean up my own backyard before telling others to do the same. Admittedly I do let the rule lapse at times. But in any case the golden rule should be the presumption "inocent until proven guilty" and not the preferred N.Ireland version.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 13, 2012, 09:38 AM EDT

  seamus60 – You were correct to admonish me, in a very well constructed post…In my defence I can only say that the scale of ‘imperfection’ in NI pales into insignificance, when set against places in other parts of the world.. and ignoring the basic right to life of others eg Robert Bradford, does not promote resolution…

• Realist | May 13, 2012, 08:21 AM EDT

  seamus60: One of the responsibilities of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is the well being and security of its population. With this in mind and with the security intelligence available to him he determined that the threat posed by Price had "significantly increased". Regarding the charges against her - let due legal process run its course. This is one of the many differences between the actions of a civilized parliamentary democracy and the modus operandi of a lawless terrorist organization like the Provisional IRA. Price's case is an excellent and telling contrast to the treatment of IRA and UDA victims who did not have access to legal representation, basic human rights, or indeed, the right to life itself. Also, you have made some vague comments about the murder of Robert Bradford MP. Please provide one fact (I hope you underdstand the meaning of this word) to substantiate this. What do you know (I hope you understand the meaning of this word also) that his family, friends, and former colleagues do not?

• seamus60 | May 13, 2012, 07:23 AM EDT

  Realist. Programme on BBC1 just finished where even a panelist representing the alliance party ( who hold position foe ministry of JUSTICE) said his party are very concerned with the case. Marian price had already been granted bail on both the latest charges yet a british secretary of state over rides the decisions of the court. That is called political policing ,is it not. Dan. Your veil is slipping. In the society you aspire to there will be a distortion to these so called basic human rights, based solely on secret intelligence reports from a hidden source. (the same on Bradfoerd also fell victim to, should Realist check out some facts brodcast on a documentary way back) As another panelist on the show just said . you get thrown into prison in China for holding a piece of paper with worldwide protest.Not so here. Democrecy N.Ireland style is alive and well regardless of the conflict resolution gravy train.

• Realist | May 13, 2012, 07:14 AM EDT

  Barra McGrory, Northern Ireland's Director of Public Prosecutions on the terrorist-related charges against Marian Price and the three co-accused: "This is by no means the end of the matter" "The papers in this case were ready to go to the defence solicitors." "But these are very particular offences under complex terrorism legislation which require the personal consent of the Director (of Public Prosecutions) before they can proceed." "It's important the general public knows that the representatives of one of the accused wrote to the court and to the Public Prosecution Service and asked that the hearing be downgraded to a mention hearing only" "This case will be recommenced in another way. This case will proceed - perhaps a little bit later now than would have been the case but for these events."

• DanOLoingsigh | May 13, 2012, 06:07 AM EDT

  seano – everyone in NI has a right to basic human rights, not just your ’poster girl’…some acknowledgement of this on your part is long overdue

• Realist | May 13, 2012, 05:24 AM EDT

  seano: From the BBC news site....only after being told that the preliminary inquiry papers were still not ready, did the District Judge order the release of Marion Price's three co-accused as there was no evidence before him. This decision has since been questioned by the chairman of the Stormont Assembly's Justice Committee. Price remains in custody charged in connection with the murders of two soldiers at Massereene Barracks in March 2009.

• seanomelb | May 12, 2012, 08:23 PM EDT

  Judge McElholm threw the case against Marian and three Derry men out of court stating that everyone deserved a fair trial in a reasonable amount of time,thus by default he recognised they were been held unduly and without any evidence to convict them.Dano and others try to demean those who post articles protesting the inequalities of British justice by quoting the status quo therefore giving oxygen to injustice and trying so hard to convince others of their anti nationalist views.

• sirpeter | May 12, 2012, 07:09 PM EDT

  Tom I had the same problem a few days back.It seems to have corrected itself.I think it is a tech problem.I don't think it's a word problem.You're not the Roddy Doyle type :))

• seamus60 | May 12, 2012, 06:59 PM EDT

  Dan. Your compassion knows no bounds. That sounded like a national health warning, a british one. For someone who has reason to know so much on conflict resolution etc you seem to be very fixated on allowing far less than perfect as a good excuse for abuse of ones human rights. As a republican who is not in favour of futher armed conflict I would like to think people involved in your game would be of the opinion that by allowing past abuses of rights to continue there will always be people prepared to take up arms against such injustices. Regardless of Marian Prices background she is still entitled under many international laws to be treated humainly. Watch out folks or you may be imprisoned and kept in solitary confinement should you ever get charged with failing to keep a distance from a bunch of swaggering, masked fancy-dress merchants. Are you a member of the Ruling by Fooling party or is your just Maskey as they`re all well saleried up to their knees in the good old conflict resolution gravy train. Realist go ahead knock yourself out and educate us as to the ways of the world. That would be your world.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 12, 2012, 04:15 PM EDT

  seamus60 - If she was so frail, maybe the doctor should have ordered her to keep a distance from a bunch of swaggering, masked fancy-dress merchants, eh? Non-Jury courts are used in both jurisdictions, when necessary...imperfect justice is preferable to the alternative forms practiced by Ms Prices friends, I'm sure you'll agree...

• DanOLoingsigh | May 12, 2012, 04:05 PM EDT

  TomSwinford - Hi Tom, good to see you back...I have had many posts disappear into the dark IC night...I just assumed there was some kind of filter that screened out certain words...but nobody has ever explained this...perseverance...

• DanOLoingsigh | May 12, 2012, 03:57 PM EDT

  Realist - Your juxtaposition of the two MPs and their fate, and the lack of reaction to it, is a poignant reminder of the hierarchy of 'victimhood'...the majority of victims of the 'Troubles' lie unmourned, and unremembered, except by their families...unlike the 'chosen few', with their bands of hero-worshippers...

• Realist | May 12, 2012, 03:28 PM EDT

  seamus60: As I guessed, I will have to ask my question again....please tell us why Diplock courts were set up in the first place? Do you have any sensible comments regarding the comparison between the deaths of Bobby Sands MP and Rev. Robert Bradford MP? Since you bring up her name, perhaps convicted terrorist bomber and prisoner of Her Majesty, Ms Price could remind us how many prisoners her organisation (the Provisional IRA) took?

• seamus60 | May 12, 2012, 02:06 PM EDT

  Realist. Diplock courts were a joke as a means of putting away as many people as possable in the shortest time possable. Where jurys would no doubt have found few guilty based on the flimsiest of evidence such as uncoborated statements from people having been tortured etc. In what normal society is throwing people out of helicopters whilst blind folded a respected form of questioning. No one would serve on them for lots of reasons which is neither here nor there in referance to the presant day Internment of Marian Price. The very judge pulled her charges based on the fact that 1 full year later where there is no forensics etc to be established she remains imprisoned. The DPP has puffed out a story now about her defence not wanting the case to go forward due to her ill health. Ten months in solitary confinement for a woman of her age who suffers bad health anyway is just what the doctor ordered to have her fighting fit for her day in court. As for Bradford call at the door of the brits with that one as it were they who set him up for PIRA. Maybe Paisley saw him as a threat.

• seamus60 | May 12, 2012, 11:06 AM EDT

  To seano, dano, sirpeter and others who may be familiar with my posts, I've enjoyed reading yours on Nial's story above. I have submitted several comments but none were posted - a bit frustrating. I am assured by IC that their tech chief is investigating. Test posts on other IC articles get through without difficulty. Methinks I am perplexed.

• Realist | May 12, 2012, 11:01 AM EDT

  I notice someone criticised Diplock courts earlier....possibly seamus60 or seano? - probably the same person anyway lol. Perhaps you can remind us why Diplock courts were set up in the first place? If, as I suspect, you either unable or unwilling to answer the question, I will be happy to fill you in.

• Realist | May 12, 2012, 10:51 AM EDT

  I see we still have no takers on the Bobby Sands MP and Rev. Robert Bradford MP comparison.... In 1981, Bobby Sands was a Belfast man. He was an elected British member of Parliament. He was arrested, tried, sentenced, and held as a prisoner of Her Majesty's Government. He was not killed, but chose to take his own life. In 1981, Robert Bradford was a Belfast man. He also was an elected British member of Parliament. He was not afforded the right of arrest, trial, sentencing, or being held prisoner. He did not have the choice to live. An unarmed Methodist minister, he was murdered by the Provisional IRA. Bobby Sands was a member of the same Provisional IRA.

• seamus60 | May 12, 2012, 09:24 AM EDT

  Dan, Yes the DPP has yet again shifted the goal posts the same goal posts that at a cost exceeding ten million released all those accused in a recent Supergrass trial. The one that was deemed to failure from its inception. Another proven failed tactic of internment ressurected from the eighties. If it done conflict resolution no good then how do you propose it will now ?. Over the 40 years we have had too many means of distorting the due process to even remember. But when they are going back on these, the most discredited it proves the real changes leave a lot to be desired. May I add all the accused in these past discreditted distortions of expected democrecy were as Marian before the court facing charges. The only differance being the most outspoken critics of the same distortions from the past remain relatively silent.

• padraig67 | May 12, 2012, 09:06 AM EDT

  seamus, i laid a wreath at the IRA Cork No 1 brigade st finbarrs cemetery, your great uncle gave his life for this state, i hope youse comeback 1 day, we need to keep a democratic nationalist flame burning.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 12, 2012, 04:28 AM EDT

  Sirpete – As previously stated, I sometimes work in post-conflict locations. Seano tries to portray this work in his own way, while knowing nothing about it, of course…Part of the pre-deployment HEAT (Hazardous Environment Awareness Training) covers Hostage Awareness; advice is to minimise any personal information available on the internet that could be useful to other parties…so I won’t be making further reference to this in the future…

• DanOLoingsigh | May 12, 2012, 03:31 AM EDT

  Seamus60 – F. She faces serious criminal charges. G. She is in Legal Custody. H. The NI DPP has stated in the last 24hrs. that her case will go to trial. I. It’s not at all confusing – unless you ‘buy into’ a partial, one-sided agenda, or think that political parties should influence a legal system. The fact that the NI justice system is imperfect should come as no surprise…but it’s preferable to the summary justice promoted by the ‘anti-democratic’ zealots with their masks and para-military garb.

• seanomelb | May 12, 2012, 01:15 AM EDT

  I read that Marian Price and three Derry men have been cleared of an all charges.He released the three men but not Price.Typical British justice or is it spite what say you Dano?

• sirpeter | May 11, 2012, 10:26 PM EDT

  Dano.It's important to know where a person is from.It gives an understanding when you know the general area a person grew up in.Everyone knows I'm from Cork~~Like.Come-on Dano!!Where are you from?We are all friends here on IC.One big happy family.Everyone understanding and never giving offense.You can trust us Dano to respect you.;))

• seamus60 | May 11, 2012, 09:27 PM EDT

  It seems according to you Dan, that a number of human rights groups, political parties and many other relevant groups all need reality checks . With all demanding the release of Marian Price , an end to her INTERNMENT to be exact. You may wish to call it something else but when it smells like a porky it most likely is. Lets see the chain of events and judge just how good this new found democrecy is working out. A. a licence she did not have in the first place is revoked by the secretary of state. B she remains in solitry confinement until the same secretary comes up with the excuse that they can not find her royal pardon, there fore theres no proof she ever got one. ( the brits lost a royal pardon ??? they must hand them out by the filing cabinet load every week for feck sake) yet he goes on to contest the over riding fact of her royal pardon ( with no proof she ever got) and how it has priority over any licence she might have had.( but didn`t). I know its confusing. C. As it was all just getting too confusing they charged her with holding the piece of paper itself in the cemetary. D. as that charge appeared to be going down the toilet as well, they added another few as rediculous as those before. E. now that the piece of paper charge has collasped in Derry court only this week she remains in prison etc etc etc. Now thats Internment of this so called democrecy is worse than the one we had for the last 40 years. The one where SF brought people on to the streets to protest against but funnilly enough don`t even attend these Human rights groups protests anymore.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 11, 2012, 08:43 PM EDT

  Seano - maybe you can try to develop some kind of debating point, instead of chanting the same old mantra...you may find it a little more rewarding than making silly snide comments about those who happen to disagree with you...

• DanOLoingsigh | May 11, 2012, 08:17 PM EDT

  seano - I think you'll find we all write IN FRONT OF a screen - in fact nobody knows where anyone is from, that's how it works...I could tell you anything...how could you know if it was true or not?

• seanomelb | May 11, 2012, 08:00 PM EDT

  I hope you are happy in the land where you truly belong and ireland will be better for your absence.

• seanomelb | May 11, 2012, 07:58 PM EDT

  I can assure you Dano I stand by what I say and do not need green tinted glasses,but then again we do not know where you are from. A coward writing from behind a screen,I wonder what colour the screen is. Ciara have you lost your senses?? Well said Mr Kearns.

• Gearoid4 | May 11, 2012, 05:57 PM EDT

  Trust C Dexy to conflate the word "Catholic" with sex abuse, which is far more prevalent in family circles, public school systems and other public bodies than it is in the Catholic clergy, which is not to condone any of the revelations which have come out. But of course, the bigoted rantings of some on this forum never cease to amaze me.

• Eamon | May 11, 2012, 04:57 PM EDT

  farewell seamus quinn, your patriotic great forefathers buried on the island of ireland, fighting for a cause that youse somehow lost your way in, remember you don't have to grow a beard next time youse come back, unlike in 79 when we all treated to that laugh at the bus top & we all spun around to see a brit patrol, youse didn't fool your uncle or us.

• sirpeter | May 11, 2012, 02:40 PM EDT

  Dano.You're right.I didn't see the on-going argument.I shouldn't have said anything personal. ;))

• ciaradexy | May 11, 2012, 02:08 PM EDT

  Brendan kearns, is that the same catholic heart as your priests who raped kids?

• DanOLoingsigh | May 11, 2012, 11:11 AM EDT

  Sirpete - you're correct up to a point...but you can't just take single posts in isolation...I developed some kind of an argument in previous posts in this string...and he tries to tie me in to attacks on civilians in foreign parts... which I don't think I have defended...while he happily defends similar attacks so long as they're carried out by peoplee who share his agenda

• johnnymac12 | May 11, 2012, 10:08 AM EDT

  I am glad sands's death changed things in N.I. IT PROVED TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THAT SLIMMING LONG TERM DOES NOT PAY. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

• sirpeter | May 11, 2012, 07:42 AM EDT

  Dano.You make a personal attack on Seano in the first few sentences of your comment and then go on to criticize Seano for making personal attacks.That's mad stuff Dano lol.Take Fallsers comment below.This is what Seano and I are dealing with.A very angry Orangeman.The PIRA and Loyalist aggression are the offspring of an oppressive NI Protestant government.Injustice breeds resistance and aggression.Fallsers is paying the price for what the British did in Ireland on a personal level and in this day and age.He hates the Irish people with a passion.lol.He is now leaving and he was becoming my most favorite confused bigot living in NI.He won't be able to leave IC though.The Irishman in him wont allow it.;))

• DanOLoingsigh | May 11, 2012, 01:41 AM EDT

  Seano has a nice designer pair of 'green-tinted' specs, too. He 'Greenwashes' any atrocity by his pals, mangles recent history, and prefers personal attacks to evidence-based arguments...Plus ça change...

• seanomelb | May 10, 2012, 07:45 PM EDT

  WE have a new arbiter of principles and integrity.A bit rich coming from an ex serviceman who didn't mind the slaughter of innocent Afghani and Iraqi civilians and pays lip service to nationalists who were murdered by his Tommy pals in Norn Areland.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 10, 2012, 07:29 PM EDT

  seamus60 - Oh for those 'green-tinted' spectacles where all the worlds against those decent Republicans!! Maybe you need a reality check..she's not 'Interned', and her case will be heard...unlike many of the innocents...

• FallsRNat | May 10, 2012, 04:56 PM EDT

  sirpeter - a scottish prod turns irish, i think that youse are indeed suffering a delusion, but i'm off with Kathleen & the boys to build a better life for ourselves on the UK mainland, i won't be coming back, it's much better spending time with the English as they don't hold nationality/religion against you, poor paddy in Ireland will soon be left to their own devices & the howling banshees of a independent Scotland that once allied to a Unionist Ulster will be as fervently anti popery as ever, but that's your problem. Give it 10 years without english money & the celtic people will have reverted back to painting their faces blue or green i suppose or goose stepping to the Reichstag tune, whatever way, a subjected race.

• seamus60 | May 10, 2012, 02:20 PM EDT

  That would be the Marian Price who is interned by the brits in the relative comfort of silence from a party we were faithfull to. The same party that brought thousands to the streets in protest of the same brit internment when THEY WEREN`T IN GOV. You sidewinded round Mc Geough who i was using to highlight the fact that it doesn`t matter if you take the road of non violence, no alternative republican opinion will be tolerated. Anyway Marian the SUSPECT has only today had more charges dropped, not to matter as they added a few more only weeks back just in case. You fall way short too, on where principles and integrity can much worse than leave you with a long walk as they can and will have you imprisoned. Just you follow with head held high in this great new found democeracy where not that much has changed. (even for those who choose the road of non violence).

• DanOLoingsigh | May 10, 2012, 10:16 AM EDT

  seamus60 – If you mean the Marion who is a suspect in recent dissident activity, then probably not…So what were all the lives lost for? A futile attempt at coercion…and I’m not sure God appreciates your principles or integrity…after all others who disagree with you have their principles and integrity too…and if you’re not on the bus, you’ll have a very long walk, you and your fine principles and integrity

• seamus60 | May 10, 2012, 09:39 AM EDT

  Dan. One either has to follow the path of non violence. Do you mean like Gerry Mc Geough ? Or even Marian price ? It aparantly makes no differance. You are happy with just more of the old liar politicians to get us through the economic turbulants. As thats all it is to them. 30 years ago i wouldn`t have got on the blueshirt bus either because of promises made by my corupt leadership. So lets all just follow like sheep. Thank god i havent sold my principles or integrity as they can`t be bought back. But hey if you`re happy not questioning why those with all the so called courage and wisdom have abandoned what all the lives were lost for. Go for it but i don`t have to. Once bitten twice shy or is it fool me once shame on you,,, fool me twice shame on me".

• sirpeter | May 09, 2012, 10:25 PM EDT

  Well Fallsers I hate to say it but a tangerine looks pretty orange to me.I think that's why they call that particular fruit a tangerine orange.I don't think it would be just me who would argue that tangerine is orange.lol Let's not go there when it comes to Celtic and football.It's just to embarrassing for the Prods.It really is.Though my ancestors are from Dundee.They decided it was better to be Irish prod or Scot prod.But never to be British prod.Been British is kinda like been a metrosexual.You don't really know what you are.

• historybuff106 | May 09, 2012, 09:22 PM EDT

  I, too, was at the British Consulate in San Francisco that long day and night 31 years ago. Myself and my 5 children, and many other friends and family members, walked behind that coffin. We had already been picketting the Consulate for weeks. Bobby's death was the definitive moment when everything changed. People who had been indifferent suddenly decided they needed to get involved. There were so many familiar faces there; then there were the "new" ones who came because "I just felt I had to be here."

• FallsRNat | May 09, 2012, 05:50 PM EDT

  sirpeter - yes, i admit it, 16 times when in scotland, i have worn a tangerine jersey - though i'm sure that you would argue it was orange, when i attended Dundee Utd matches, the last being our victory against Celtic. Too prove my non sectarian nature I also attended the match at Ibrox the previous weds. Did I see you at Hunky Dory's Park on 26/6/11, there were a few irish with their bracies & turned up jeans.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 09, 2012, 01:54 PM EDT

  seamus60 - each side complains about too many concessions to the other...that's either the sign of a workable compromise…or to some a 'sell-out'. One either has to follow the path of non-violence, or try to intensify the conflict...imo there would be far less tolerance for any future 'campaign', both in Ireland and abroad...not to mention that most minds in both jurisdictions are focussed on economic problems...Most people are on the ‘Peace Bus’…a few are left standing in the rain, the cold hard driving rain, thinking about the pain and shame…

• seamus60 | May 09, 2012, 11:42 AM EDT

  Sorry Dan that would be complicit. How we get from here to there without examining why we have less for more ? Surely a good working proceedure is to know your own hand. Concerssion after concession is hardly the work of a determined leadership to take Republicanism forward.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 09, 2012, 10:18 AM EDT

  seamus60 - Complacent or Complicit? Few people dispute a legitimate desire for UI...It's how we get from here to there that's at the nub of the argument...and did the 'campaign' help or hinder the process?

• DanOLoingsigh | May 09, 2012, 10:17 AM EDT

  testing, 1.2.3.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 09, 2012, 10:01 AM EDT

  Bobby Sands chose to starve himself to death, favoring martyrdom and eternal glorification. Patton famously said, "You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win it by making the other son-of-a-bitch die for his country. In Ireland, down through the centuries, with the single, remarkable exception of Michael Collins, we've failed to grasp this simple truism. We've had far too many "hereos" willing and anxious to die for Ireland rather than live for it, taking the easy way out - a peculiar and continuing Irish pathology - and knowing that they would be revered and honored forevermore by the deluded faithful. I am not at all sure that Sands' cause was as noble as many prefer to believe but I am sure that if we had more like Collins and fewer like Sands, we would have a more successful and happy history to look back upon. The reason the British feared Collins so much was simply because he wanted to both win and live - and because he was as ruthless as he was competent. Can anyone imagine Collins going on a hunger strike. Unthinkable.

• seamus60 | May 09, 2012, 09:53 AM EDT

  FallRnat. You are jumping all over the place, maybe its your army training or where you a boxer ?. My origional post was that the brits were complacent in the killing of Bradford. With regard to Richards assertions I think you will find he accuses the leadership in scullduggery at the outset of the Hungerstrike in view of their direct contact with the brits and the question of Adams talking to them in private. Regardless of who was making offers, they fell well short of anything acceptable until well after Bobbys death. However Richards real issue begins in ernest with the offer made July 5th. The one that could have stopped the Strike in its tracks had the brave men been informed. As for what Bobbys reply would have been to your question in regards to the overall political outcome, you could actually take that question right back to when he first became a volunteer or shortly afterwards. There were few who actually joined the RA because of a historically instilled Republican background but rather as a reaction to what was going on around them at the time. The desire for a UI became first and foremost after time in the ranks for most. Ask ex-POW`s. "Would you do it all over again" most will reply every day. Rephrase it to " would you do it all over again knowing how it was going to turn out" even more will reply "not a day".

• DanOLoingsigh | May 09, 2012, 07:57 AM EDT

  Thanks mairead, I think you just reinforced the points in my post...

• maireadinmelb | May 09, 2012, 06:29 AM EDT

  But Dan it is not a true democracy! Further the IRA were not the only ones to use violence but they are the only continuously denigrated for using violence! And realist for every innocent victim of IRA violence you name I can name a victim of british violence! Sands gave his life for those around him to prove a point and seek recognition under international law for being the pow he was! And the claim that Sands was found guilty in a court - It was a non jury diplock court again not a democratic process but a form of government detention!!!

• DanOLoingsigh | May 09, 2012, 06:19 AM EDT

  All strands in Irish society need to have their ‘chosen ones’, who they seek to elevate to mythic status... denigrating the ‘chosen ones’ of their opponents in the process…the main factor that differentiates the heirs of the ‘Padraig Pearse’ persuasion from most of the rest, is that they promoted and lauded the use of violence in pursuit of their agenda..They neither sought nor concerned themselves with any democratic mandate…as Pearses' heirs they were right, and everybody else was wrong. Their unwavering conceit meant they were blind to any views but their own….the deaths of Bobby Sands and Co. was one milestone on their journey to democracy, a long and uncomfortable walk for some, to a destination most can scarcely recognise.

• seanomelb | May 08, 2012, 08:17 PM EDT

  Falls you are an apologist for the British claiming a myriad of republicans as "family" including Sean McBride and another former COS of the IRA who bounced you on his knee(McStiofan).Your full of it Falls and have no credibility in this debate my "ex British serviceman" or is that another b##sh#t story

• sirpeter | May 08, 2012, 07:36 PM EDT

  Fallsers.It quite difficult to see your arguments most of the time.You try and make a statement that is true.But then I find the statement is so lame that it is almost to silly to argue against it. What you think or believe is really not the truth at all.Here is an example.You say no protestant would post on this board.You believe that to be the truth.You don't have any trouble making a statement like that,even though you can't possible know.But I DO know there is a protestant who posts on this board.Proving you wrong is an exercise in futility.I'd love to know what protestant values are?.I might be missing something.Let's be hearing those protestant values Fallsers?Or you sure they are not just Orange Order values?

• FallsRNat | May 08, 2012, 07:14 PM EDT

  seamus60 - yes, it was on July 5th that O'Rawe says that a revised deal for 4 of the 5 demands was put on the table by the brits, the 1st offer meeting 2 of the demands was made in late April preceeding Sand's death on May 5th, the basic tenet of O'Rawe's argument was that the Republican leadership allowed the strikers to continue after negotiations were started in earnest. Whatever, one's political persuasion it shows the PIRA leadership's ability to put themselves 1st above the 'grunts' on the ground, yes Sand's death played a part in the ending of the armed struggle, but not in the way he would have intended, if youse had posed a question to him that his sacrifice would enable PIRA to sign a peace agreement that ensured that NI would remain part of the UK with PIRA politicians in that government, well youse only have to read this board to see that the answer would be no.

• ciaradexy | May 08, 2012, 06:56 PM EDT

  Falls, no one is born a catholic. You have to be indoctrinated into that cult.

• seamus60 | May 08, 2012, 06:17 PM EDT

  FallsRnat. I think you are confusing Bobby with Bradford. Although i do believe all 9 hungerstrikers after Bobby were seen as a great stepping stone to personal gain by some in the leadership. After all for a group that could muster a few thousand at most onto the streets to see in access of 100,000 at Bobbys funeral had to be a shock to the system. In reality this is only confirmed prior to the death of the last brave six as till then (as of yet)there was nothing to suggest otherwise.

• FallsRNat | May 08, 2012, 04:39 PM EDT

  it could be argued that he was killed by his own side as both Richard O'Rawe & the recently released british govt documents show that the brits gave into PIRA's demands, but not for the 1st time this was over ruled by Gerry Adams.

• seamus60 | May 08, 2012, 02:09 PM EDT

  Realist. If you want to be just that you should admit that it was indeed the brits who killed Bradford, The IRA were a mere tool in the process.

• Realist | May 08, 2012, 01:25 PM EDT

  Mr O'Dowd....on hearing of Bobby Sands' suicide you were "utterly inflamed and upset at what Margaret Thatcher had just allowed to happen". On hearing of the Reverend Robert Bradford's murder, how did you feel about what Bobby Sands' 'comrades' had just ordered to happen?

• Realist | May 08, 2012, 01:17 PM EDT

  In 1981, Bobby Sands was a Belfast man. He was an elected British member of Parliament. He was arrested, tried, sentenced, and held as a prisoner of Her Majesty's Government. He was not killed, but chose to take his own life. In 1981, Robert Bradford was a Belfast man. He also was an elected British member of Parliament. He was not afforded the right of arrest, trial, sentencing, or being held prisoner. He did not have the choice to live. An unarmed Methodist minister, he was murdered by the Provisional IRA. Bobby Sands was a member of the same Provisional IRA.

• FallsRNat | May 08, 2012, 01:13 PM EDT

  sirpeter - truth hurts, youse really should try to think of an obvious argument to counter mine, it really is pathetic to resort to trying to change the subject, for the record, i was born catholic, live on the Falls, ask Copeland he knows ma family, no protestant would post on this board. Ireland North, Cromwell wasn't defender of the faith, the pope inferred that on the British kings, Henry VIII kept it after he left Rome, the Orange order are a religious organisation that holds up everything of protestant values, youse can't live here in the North because the prods never considered themselves Irish. The Ancient Order of Hibernians, GAA have themselves in the past supported PIRA, i can't think of a more sectarian organisation then them

• PhlutiePhan | May 08, 2012, 11:41 AM EDT

  Bobby Sands was not Ghandi. His hunger strike entailed walking around nude in the prison and smearing feces wherever he could. Not a lot of dignity in feces smearing. Sands was a socialist/communist and not a republican.

• IrelandNorth | May 08, 2012, 08:38 AM EDT

  Oliver Cromwell was Chief-of-Staff of the English Republican Army (ERA)/(aka New Model Army) and Defender of their Faith. They put a statue up to him outside Westminster Parliament Buildings. George Washington was Chief-of-Staff of the American Republican Army (ARA) and they built a capitol city to him. The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland is virulently anti-Catholic, and pro-British. I doubt if the average Orangemen considers himself Irish. I have it on reliable authority that young Orange lads being taught the Lambeg drum used to be told: "Remember lads, every time you beat that Lambeg drum you're beating a Catholic. So go out there and put your backs into it. Beat that drum until your wrists bleed."

• ranger1640 | May 08, 2012, 08:34 AM EDT

  Me thinks O'Dowd had bought into the shinner propaganda hook line and sinker. Sands was a pawn used by Gerry Adams and the rest of the shinner Politburo to further their themselves. Adams was asked to step down from the Bobby Sands trust as they don't trust him.

• canadianirish | May 07, 2012, 09:40 PM EDT

  A poignant post, hughaed.

• hughaed | May 07, 2012, 08:37 PM EDT

  O'Dowd is right. Bobby Sands name imprinted itself on all of our minds-those who are republican in sympathy. My father was old IRA & he cried when Bobby Sands died. There are visceral feelings deeply felt when someone pays such an enormous sacrifice for their beliefs & faith. Gandhi's fasting helped awaken the Indian nation against the British, which like any empire, believed that intimidation & repression were the best way to rule their colonies, but the very opposite is almost always the case. It was the firing squad against Connolly & the 1916 heroes that awakened Ireland from its indentured status & made it willing to make the sacrifice to rebel. People on this thread who see history in simplistic terms: black & white or green & orange, seem to have little insight into the history of ireland. Donegal is the place of my birth & my early youth & even if I'm not living there now its history vis a vis Britain is deeply embedded inside me.

• seanomelb | May 07, 2012, 08:33 PM EDT

  I find amusing that falls has all these republican family members you even claimed you were related to Sean McBride and a former chief of staff (IRA) bounced you on his knee and how you were proud to be a member of her majesty's army.I think you should change your name to Walter Mitty. Mairead be careful of Dano he doesn't have the mettle to state where he is from and thinks his secret squirrel existence protects him.He's like the "kings new clothes" naked and afraid.

• sirpeter | May 07, 2012, 07:45 PM EDT

  Fallsers ever notice how you only comment on articles relating to NI? Seamus (If that's you're real name) your attitude is the division.I don't even believe you are from the nationalist community.I never did.I think you are an orangeman and a loyalist.Unless the Billy Boys took you away and brainwashed you for a few years.You're attitude is totally polarized and unbalanced.You have never once sided with any historic grievance that the Catholic Nationlists of NI had.The only thing you ever said was.Erra!!It wasn't that bad for the Catholics.You're comments are to one-sided and unfair for you to have a history of Republicism in your family.I think you are a loyalist posing as someone from the nationalist community.A so called person from the nationalist community defending literally everything protestant and Orange to the core.Your comments quack like the idiots of Stormfront.Laughable if only it wasn't so depressing that they actually believe their own bulls*it.

• RedBranch | May 07, 2012, 03:07 PM EDT

  The Hunger Strikers wanted to be treated as POWs and wear their own uniforms. What exactly is the uniform of an IRA volunteer, or indeed their Officer Commanding?

• seamus60 | May 07, 2012, 12:33 PM EDT

  glounlatha Your earlier post that included mention of John Hume was not far off the mark. I posted in reply trying to explain why I as a lifelong Republican of the active type would have extreme difficulty in dissagreeing with your thoughts on him, For some strange reason the admins of the site have dissaproved of the post and kept it out. But i wont wait for them to explain.

• rainbowbrew | May 07, 2012, 12:26 PM EDT

  I am learning little bits and pieces but the British seemed to be the aggressors and did some real bad things to Ireland and the Irish. Now adays I teach about a little of the problem when I explain the drink half and half over black and tans. Simple entry point for conversation. But it is sure troubling and yes the Usa and Isreal do it all the time. I agree that what they say to China is correct but not spoken with a sense of experience.

• seamus60 | May 07, 2012, 12:20 PM EDT

  Dan Bobby died to not wear the brits criminal suit and what it represented. It is up to the men wearing the orange suits and all of us to fight their corner. Not made any easier by their isolation. Have you complained anywhere yet about the abuse of their human rights ?

• mamaginnty | May 07, 2012, 12:11 PM EDT

  Where exactly did you come from, if you turned all that you have said below around you would be truthful. " No to orange marches on the whims of irish catholics, up until the troubles the orange marches started not on the 12th of July but months before on the pretext of practising. They walked through the catholic ghettos banging their drums and shouting papish bastards, we had no votes, no jobs for catholics,even signs on windows "no catholic need apply" no decent housing etc. Maybe you are a bit young to remember all this, at first we were fighting for our rights, and even asked for the british soldiers for protection, but that proved the worst thing we could have done. They armed the loyalist to beat us to the ground, even the south of Ireland did not want to know or help. You talk of protestant school grants, was that in the south of our country? because if it is all schools are facing cuts as well as hospitals, work etc etc. The country is in a crisis at the moment like the rest of the world. Or do you not read the papers or listen to the news reports. We have many protestants living in the south now, I still have my memories but we are at peace now, in time we will have our country whole again, and at peace with different cultures and religions, as they say...give peace a chance.

• DanOLoingsigh | May 07, 2012, 12:00 PM EDT

  Maireadinmelb – You can state until you’re blue in the face…that won’t change the fact that groups of self-appointed so-called ‘freedom fighters’ wasted thirty years trying to intimidate fellow Irish men and women into giving up their chosen way of life…Irish culture doesn’t depend on a bunch of zealots…or their apologists…to flourish. If you feel so strongly about occupying other peoples’ lands, there are regular flights back to Dublin…

• DanOLoingsigh | May 07, 2012, 09:57 AM EDT

  Niall, I respect your views on Bobby Sands - they are shared by many - but I opt out. I also lived in San Francisco in 1980 but did not march to the British Consulate. Sands chose to starve himself to death, favoring martyrdom and eternal glorification. Patton famously said, "You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win it by making the other son-of-a-bitch die for his country. In Ireland, down through the centuries, with the single, remarkable exception of Michael Collins, we've failed to grasp this simple truism. We've had far too many "heroes" willing and anxious to die for Ireland rather than live for it, taking the easy way out - a peculiar and continuing Irish pathology - and knowing that they would be revered and honored forevermore by the faithful. I am not at all sure that Sands was as noble as many prefer to believe but I do believe that if we had more like Collins and fewer like Sands we would have a more successful and happy history to reflect upon. The reason the British feared Collins so much was because they were confronted with a different class of warrior altogether - one that wanted to both win and live - and because he was as ruthless as he was competent. Can anyone imagine Collins going on a hunger strike?

• DanOLoingsigh | May 07, 2012, 08:46 AM EDT

  Niall, I respect your views - they are shared by many - but I bow out. I was also living in San Francisco in 1980 but did not march to the British Consulate. Bobby Sands chose to starve himself to death. Like too many Irishmen down through the centuries he favored martrydom and eternal glorification - sainthood by another name. Patton famously said "You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win it by making the other son-of-bitch die for his country." Until Michael Collins we never seemed to grasp that simple truism. I'm not at all sure that Sands' cause was as noble as so many prefer to believe but I do know that like others before him, he chose the easy way out, opting for "sainthood," dying gloriously for Ireland rather than living courageously for it - a depressing pathology that too many Irish seem to embrace.

• FallsRNat | May 07, 2012, 06:58 AM EDT

  maireadinmelb I am afraid you'll wrong, Sands was a product of his time, you cannot put my family who trace our roots right back to the IRB, 1916, irish civil war, WW2 internment camps until the transformation of themselves into democrats, 50 yrs too late, Sands & PIRA represented all that is wrong with republicanism & nationalism in Ireland today, they fought a war to preserve this ideal as the way of life for the 32 county state. The proclamation of Independence said that the new republic would be oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by alien government, which has divided a minority from the majority of the past, unfortunately we in the irish catholic community have done exactly what we preached against, no to Orange marches, no to protestant identity unless subjected to the whims of a catholic ireland, you may scoff, but only a year or 2 back, after 40 years of paying special grants to protestant schools €2.8m in the ireland was withdrawn, that's why i stood down from SF in the 70s, i want a free state that is secular, plurist & free on equal terms for all of the people of ireland to enjoy. Would we have got that with PIRA of course not, Adams ensured the continuing division on this island for generations to come by demonising the Orange order & anything protestant, youse know somebody once said to me that he was an agent of the brits, cause this man & his army have done so much to ensure division on the emerald isle

• maireadinmelb | May 07, 2012, 05:59 AM EDT

  TO Bythebay and dan and all the other apologists I will again state, The IRA is a result of violence in IReland not the cause! THere was violence for 700 years before the IRA existed! From the time Henry II first sent his men westward! The only reason a part of Ireland is a republic today is because of the sacrifice of men like Bobby Sands, If you cannot be respectful of him WHY are you on this site! You would not have an Irish culture to celebrate without him, just more british crap! America fought for its freedom using violence and international support! Sands is as much a terrorist as Paul Revere!! The USA and British governments are no better than terrorists when they ignore the rules of war and combat!! When they deny POW's their rights! THE Rights Bobby and Francis and Patsy and Joe and Raymond and Kevin and Kieren and Tommy and Mickey were fighting for! Even though the USA and Brits try to demand China recognises human rights they and their Allies ie Israel do not follow those same laws and if the governments who create the laws do not follow them..... why should their enemies???

• DanOLoingsigh | May 07, 2012, 03:18 AM EDT

  So what about all those guys in the orange suits, currently held as ‘guests’ of the US? Looks a wee bit like a ‘uniform’ they’re wearing, eh?

• seamus60 | May 06, 2012, 10:34 PM EDT

  Bythebay. You`re not listening. POW`s don`t have to do prison work. Regardless of what their comrades are or aren`t doing on the outside.

• Searlit | May 06, 2012, 10:33 PM EDT

  Bobby Sands, P.O.W. the truth.

• Bythebay | May 06, 2012, 09:14 PM EDT

  Another demand of Sands, who was in prison for weapons possession in connection with the bombing of the Balmoral Furniture Company, and the Hunger Strikers in 1981 was not to do prison work. Meanwhile that year of 1981 and shortly after the IRA terrorists continued their terrorism outside Northern Ireland by planting bombs in London which jeopardized innocent civilians, one on Exbury Bride Road and the other in Wimpy Bar, killing 2 and injuring 39, they set off bombs in Hyde Park and Regency Park killing 11 invluding 7 horses, as well as targeting Christmas shoppers at Harrods Department Store where their bomb killed 6 and wounded 90.

• Bythebay | May 06, 2012, 08:33 PM EDT

  The IRA Terrorists who were largely funded by Americans of Irish descent killed the largest number of people both Protestant and Catholic during their 30 years of terrorism -- over 1600 people. They also killed nearly 600 people outside Northern Ireland. They had far more killings than loyalists.

• seanomelb | May 06, 2012, 07:42 PM EDT

  Hiding behind your usual cloak of cowardice Dano whilst you denigrate or great hero.

• seamus60 | May 06, 2012, 07:28 PM EDT

  Bythebay. Bobby didn`t give his life just for a uniform but rather what it represented. The uniform and its acceptance was that of a criminal which he was not. When the brits conceded to this they also conceded that he was indeed a POW which in turn begrudgedly confirmed a war was being waged in Ireland. Something the brits always denied and still do aided through the acceptance by SF of prisoners licences etc and their revokation by the brits. The same signifigence was placed apon the british soldiers uniform contrary to the singular myth that a coffin going back to england was bigger news to that of one remaining in Ireland.Most Irish Republican Volunteers would have preferred to take out RUC members as opposed to the young british soldier with mostlikely very little understanding of Irish history. However when the choice of target arose the british soldier in his british uniform took presidence.

• FallsRNat | May 06, 2012, 07:18 PM EDT

  This is of course pure nonsense, there will never be peace on the island of Ireland until we the nationalists revoke the marrying of the republican ideology and catholicism with the very essence of irishness, until we refute this identity crisis we have had since the 1920s, we cannot pursue a 1 Ireland goal.

• ProudCanadian | May 06, 2012, 07:10 PM EDT

  Gee murph you can right a great post good for you. I agree 100% with you. Sands and his fellow hero's were what ever their enemies and friends made them out to be. They wanted to be treated as politcal prisoners thus they wouldn't have to where the prison uniforms. I have read the book Babby Sands a great read.

• Murph46 | May 06, 2012, 06:44 PM EDT

  pilib04 your words of Irish awakeing are strong and to the point,well said Irish!

• DanOLoingsigh | May 06, 2012, 06:23 PM EDT

  Bobby Sands and his cronies tried to intimidate Irishmen who did not agree with them...they chose how they would die...but did not allow their victims the same rights...heroes to some...

• seanomelb | May 06, 2012, 06:16 PM EDT

  May the gods look kindly on our hero bobby and a plague on the mean spirited Irish who never grasped the importance of the hunger strike and what it accomplished,they have no vision,no soul.

• Bythebay | May 06, 2012, 04:14 PM EDT

  The only people who awoke after Bobby Sands self imposed hunger strike and death were the supporters of IRA terrorists in the US who spent millions of dollars for death and destruction in Northern Ireland, Ireland and England.

• pilib04 | May 06, 2012, 04:06 PM EDT

  Yeah Murph46, we also saw Sean Sands at a Hibernian Hall after the Hunger Strike. His presentation was quite moving. Will never forget his words. Then we saw Sean again a few years back in Bundoran.

• pilib04 | May 06, 2012, 03:57 PM EDT

  The Irish people "awoke" after the deaths of our hunger strikers. Bobby Sands, Francis Hughes, Ray McCreesh, Patsy O'Hara, Joe McDonnell, Martin Hurson, Kevin Lynch, Kieran Doherty, Tom McElwee, and Mickey Devine gave their lives to awaken the Irish Nation. Their sacrifice was the same as that of the Heroes of 1916. The sacrifice of the 1981 Hunger Strikers changed the course of Irish History

• Murph46 | May 06, 2012, 01:52 PM EDT

  Byethebay-I went and saw Sean Sands at a local Hibernian club,he told of the extreme torment ,and pain his brother experienced.It was certainly for a hell of a lot more than the right not to wear uniforms.

• TayandCake | May 06, 2012, 01:23 PM EDT

  Well its 2012 so lets forget all that

• Bythebay | May 06, 2012, 12:31 PM EDT

  Sands hunger strike was so prisoners didn't have to wear prison uniforms. He was convicted of weapons possession while he and his cohorts fled from the bombing of the Balmoral Furniture Company and had a gun battle with the Royal Ulster Constabulary who tried to apprehend them. He left two wounded cohorts at the bombing scene while he and others fled. His death accomplished nothing for Northern Ireland except allow the prisoners not to wear prison unforms.

• Murph46 | May 06, 2012, 12:02 PM EDT

  My local newspaper printed a letter that said Sand's was a terrorist.I replied with -History has a strange way of tainting our perspective,200 years earlier in America Sand's would have been just a Patriot,trying to remove a latter day King george from Sand's colonies.

• glounlathan | May 06, 2012, 11:10 AM EDT

  There have been so many angles to all of this. The way Bobby Sands died was indeed very tragic, and I an no fan of Maggie Thatcher. She not alone left Catholic population of Nothern Ireland down but the workers in England too. But I think if people like John Hume, Lord O'Neil and Jack Lynch were left work things out and the para-militaries kept out of it all that the situation would have been resolved sooner. How many members of the Sinn Fein deputies went on hunger strike? Is it right to use hunger strikers as a negotiating tool while those negotiating go on to reap the rewards of their death. This is not alone true of leaders from all the empires who cuased the deaths of troops to extend their empires but it is true of many who have follwed their conception of boundaries on the blood of others. John Hume to me is the greatest Irishman of the century, He took the bullet and did not give it back. Mark my words in time, he, Seamus Mallin and others will stand out in history when others will fade into the darkness. It took many years for the facts of Michael Collin to break through the covers of time---even if he were of the gun. The North might never have been an issue if There were more Humes on both sides in 1916. My family's home was one where two friends spent many a night on the run, but they turned the guns on each other when the treaty was signed----they fought over the border but in reality the only border should be the one of decency. My uncle said once that a lot of dirty things were done in the name of Ireland. This was a man who had been brutally beaten by the Tans but he saw how some Irishmen became tyrants when they got the gun in their hands, and how they abuse the situation with a tyranny of their own. No to me Hume the man who took the bullet and his friends should have been listened and it was the para-militaries on both sides who delayed peace and a resolution.

• ProudCanadian | May 06, 2012, 10:32 AM EDT

  Great man of courage and integrety. I hope Maggie Thatcher goes to the hot place for what she did. I for one will be remembering Bobby Sands this week. God bless you Bobby.

• donal1951 | May 06, 2012, 09:50 AM EDT

  Mr O'Dowd, that was a very well thought out column. I was a first generation American but more of an Irish history and culture buff until the death of the 10 hunger strikers. After that, I became political, sometimes in ways my peaceful cousin Sean in Dublin did not approve. But the peace process has finally won me over. And it's men like you who have helped me in that political growth.

• gregoryarmagh | May 06, 2012, 09:05 AM EDT

  Niall, I totally agree with all you have stated. Such a pity that with the dirty protest and the death of the unselfish brave 10 hunger strikers had to make a change. Mike from, Armagh, Drogheda and finally Chicago.