Bishop Magee did Vatican bidding by covering up Cloyne pedophile priests - VIDEO
By: Niall O'Dowd | Published Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 2:42 PM | Updated Friday, September 9, 2011, 10:27 PM
Former Bishop John Magee
At the heart of the Bishop of Cloyne affair is a dark reality that is truly shocking.
Bishop John Magee was carrying out Vatican orders when he delegated the responsibility for the pedophile priests in his diocese to an underling and allowed him to overlook the worst abusers.
One wonders what pressing tasks the Bishop had that were so urgent that he could turnover such a critical and vital task to an underling.
Now we know why -so the Vatican fingerprints would not be on it.
The Vatican has long refused to sign off on the strict code of conduct put together by the Irish church after the sordid revelations about the past emerged. The key one was to report all suspected pedophiles to police.
As a Vatican man, through and through, Magee was following Vatican orders.
The Cloyne cover-up began into events that happened after the worst of the previous excesses were in the public domain and the Irish church had issued new firm guidelines which included giving any information to police. __________________ READ MORE: Papal nuncio 'very distressed' over Ireland's Cloynes report
Irish Priests face five years in jail if they fail to report child abuse __________________ Magee is a Vatican creation, however, secretary to three popes and a man on his way to the top of the irish church until some internal scandal derailed him and sent him to Cloyne instead. He was still taking their orders however.
We can guess what his own scandal was after he attempted to kiss a 17-year old seminary student and said he dreamed about him, a fact included in the Murphy report
But he clearly never forgot his Vatican roots. It is a place where the current Pope has much to answer for on this issue, where Cardinal Law of Boston, a notorious enabler of pedophiles was promoted, where Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin, the most courageous cleric standing in the face of this pedophile scandal, has been ignored and belittled.
The Irish government called in the Papal Nuncio in Ireland yesterday and demanded a Vatican response saying it was 'absolutely unacceptable' that the Vatican had intervened in Ireland and discouraged priests from reporting crimes against innocent children.
Foreign Minister Gilmore said what happened in Ireland was 'a totally inappropriate, unjustified, unacceptable intervention'.
'This is modern Ireland and this was a recent occasion of abuse of children and this was a recent intervention by Vatican authorities,' he said.
Once Irish governments would have quaked at the very presence of the Papal Nuncio, but no more.
Now the chairman of the Fine Gael party Charlie Flanagan, son of the most devout Catholic legislator in Irish history, Oliver Flanagan, called for the Papal Nuncio to be expelled
The nuncio's response was a polite buzz off, regretting the scandal but promising little.
Like the House of Bourbon the Vatican has learned nothing and remembered nothing.
Magee, now happily vacationing somewhere in America knows he has served his true lord and masters and to hell with the little children.
2Bor writes, "the Church will abide. Not because SOME of the people in it are horrible sinners... but because the Founder is, and He happened to promise her perpetuity." It will come as a shock to some that 2Bor considers the "Founder" of the Catholic Church a "horrible sinner" who set up a church of perpetual sin. But at least now they can conclude, from 2Bor's information, that Christ did not found it. Whew! Thanks for that message. Themurphia, many IC visitors could sound a temple police alert or a bully/ sadist alert, but you've sounded a "wiki/pedophile alert." Apparently you have more finely tuned (professional?) instincts than the rest of us, so I'll just take your word for that. It wouldn't surprise me. They're a numerous tribe, according to internet info: "A Wikipedophile is one who ... uses and/or allows Wikipedia to be used as a tool for introduction and advocation of pedophile bias point of view and/or uses and/or allows Wikipedia to be used as a tool for the illegal solicitation of children for the purposes of criminal sexual abuse, and/or is one who sympathizes with pedophiles who network globally for such purposes by their entries in Wikipedia..."
eiriamach | Jul 24, 2011, 09:21 PM EDT
OK, the test posting went through. I'd guess that the IC filters suppress mention of that particular web site I tried to refer you to, so I won't try again, but yeah! there's plenty of evidence out there not only about the history T Swinford mentions, but it's still going on.
eiriamach | Jul 24, 2011, 09:18 PM EDT
I've tried 3 times to post evidence that 2Bor challenged Tom Swinford and others to produce, but receive nothing except "comment sent," so this is a test....
themurphia | Jul 24, 2011, 07:15 PM EDT
Go back to the IT Bread/bin dear your virtual village is missing you...!
themurphia | Jul 24, 2011, 07:12 PM EDT
*Wiki/pedophile alert*...!
eiriamach | Jul 24, 2011, 12:43 PM EDT
Some followup to the discussion below-- Writing Friday in the NY Times, Laurie Goodstein tells of priests in three countries, the US, Australia, and Austria, who are challenging the Vatican on ordination of women and non-celibates: "under pressure from the Vatican, the Maryknolls have sent the first of two required 'canonical warnings' that they will dismiss [Fr. Roy Bourgeois] if he does not recant. Father Bourgeois responded that if he recanted to save his priesthood or his pension, he would be lying. 'I see this very clearly as an issue of sexism, and like racism, it’s a sin,' he said in an interview this week from his home in Georgia. 'It cannot be justified, no matter how hard we priests and church leaders, beginning with the pope, might try to justify the exclusion of women as equals. It is not the way of God. It is the way of men.'” Also, "In Australia, the church was shaken in May when Benedict XVI removed Bishop William Morris from the Diocese of Toowoomba, where he had served since 1992. The pope wrote the bishop that the teaching barring women’s ordination was 'infallible' [a much-challenged view]. The Vatican had sent AB Charles J. Chaput of Denver (named this week to be the new archbishop for ... Philadelphia) to investigate Bishop Morris. The National Council of Priests of Australia, which says it represents 40 percent of priests there, denounced the dismissal, saying that those who influenced the decision 'have limited pastoral experience.'” --->Yep, chaos! What reform always looks like! Get ready for it, Gearoid.
eiriamach | Jul 21, 2011, 07:18 PM EDT
Gearoid4, unless Christ handed a pair of testes to Peter along with the keys to the kingdom, I cannot imagine why anyone would think 'in persona Christi" means male- gendered. Or perhaps I have stupidly deluded myself all my life in thinking that women as well as men can walk in the footsteps of Christ. RC priests are male because the early doctors of the church asserted that women lacked intelligence equal to that of men and that women had a stronger propensity to sin than men. Recent church history, however, renders such claims implausible. Christ never ordained any priest, so the idea that Christ imprinted male gender on the priesthood lacks a basis in scripture, and as I've pointed out elsewhere, citing 'tradition' is not a reason not to change a tradition, but simply a way of saying that you will not consider any reason for changing a tradition. (There was once a centuries-long tradition of burning heretics at the stake, oh but RCC finally changed that tradition!) The priesthood is supposed to have nothing to do with sexual practices and thus there is no reason to reserve it to either males or females. But if the priesthood has something to do with power and authority, as you believe, than men do have a reason to reserve it to themselves, don't they?
Gearoid4 | Jul 21, 2011, 05:34 PM EDT
Concerning your points regarding authority, Eiriamach, Our Lord gave the power as outlined in the gospel of Matthew to "bind and loose" which conferred the power of making or withholding decisions regarding doctrines to Peter, the rest of the apostles and their successors.
Gearoid4 | Jul 21, 2011, 04:57 PM EDT
Thankfully the western nations in large part have made great strides in giving ladies their due both in terms of representation in parliamentary terms and increased mobility in socio-economic terms. Other parts of the world noticeably lag behind in the above regards, such as nations in the Middle-East(Israel is an exception) and Africa. The Church while recognizing the social advantages that have accrued for women, realizes as well the attributes which differentiate the sexes as well as complement them. The priesthood reflects this as the presbyter and bishop stand in Persona Christi(acts in the name or person of Jesus Christ) and thus can only be male. Jesus appointed only male disciples and the succeeding lineage has been male only in both the Catholic and Orthodox worlds. The Blessed Late Pope John Paul 11 in his encyclical "Sacerdotalis Ordinatio"(1994) stated that he had no mandate to overturn this as it has been preordained by God.
Intercessor, you question if Catholicism is true Christianity or not. Jesus handed the keys of authority to Peter in Matthew 16.18 and this certainly reveals the christian roots of Catholicism. Our Lord stated that the 'gates of hades' would not prevail against it. This did not mean that there would be an absence of grievous sins on the part of Her members, both lay or religious. We have seen terrible examples of this in recent revelations but if you go back to the first generation of apostles, you will see that their sinful weaknesses were very plain. Judas betrayed his Master for 30 pieces of silver, Peter the first head of the Church denied Our Lord in His hour of need thrice, St Paul the great evangelist was a former persecutor of christians. But the hour of the first Pentecost turned their spiritual fortunes around. Likewise the Catholic Church will not be left like a friendless orphan and will be guided by the power of the Holy Spirit.
eiriamach | Jul 21, 2011, 04:46 PM EDT
Gearoid4, earlier (Jul 16 11:15), you misunderstood what I meant with the words "usurped 'authority.'" I did not mean what you took the words to mean: "You talked about 'usurped' authority as if those who have been ordained were put there illegally. It so happens that Jesus designated authority of Leadership to Peter and the apostles which was then passed down via the following generations of episcopoi (bishops) and priests (presbyters)." Actually, I meant something like what Intercessor wrote below, that Christ never bequeathed His authority to discern good from evil to any one human being, but rather imposed on all of us the responsibility to understand and live according to the Word. While the church may need priests, priests have no call from Christ to exercise "leadership" as you think. At most, their role is to "strengthen" each other. That sounds like friendship or counseling, not like setting up a hierarchy of decision-makers who decide essential matters of morality for others. Christ's words "No one comes to the Father but through me" tell me that popes and bishops get no special merit badges or points from God, that each is simply "son" or "daughter" and nothing more than finite, mortal human beings dependent on grace but at the same time carrying on the work of the Spirit in this world-- or turning away from it.
eiriamach | Jul 21, 2011, 04:05 PM EDT
Gearoid4, you write, "Gospel values are timeless and will survive all trends and fashions that are current and yet to come." I agree that the gospel offers a timeless message, but I disagree, for ex., that the social, political, and moral equality of women is a current "trend or fashion." It is very much a gospel 'value.' Christ gave several examples of honoring it. Therefore, the Anglican ordination of women as presbyters and bishops is no "whimsical fad." It is the acceptance in history by the faithful of the full implications of the gospel, the working of Spirit in history. The Anglican Communion was not hindered in reaching this realization by any historical baggage of papal doctrine excluding women and finding rationale in the gospel for doing so-- as though Christ ever advocated discrimination or depriving women of full, equal participation in religion. I realize now that you are compelled to see such a development as a secular "fashion" or "trend" or "whimsical fad" rather than as a manifestation of gospel values because, for you, scripture was interpreted once and forever by a consummate human authority, and that interpretation can not only never change but also never develop or expand beyond the human decree given once, forever. In effect, the Holy Spirit can never do "a new thing," and Creation was finished and complete on the seventh day as recorded in Genesis, so we humans have no role to play in actualizing God's plan. To me, that's an impoverished view of both human history and Creation.
Intercessor | Jul 21, 2011, 10:47 AM EDT
Sirpeter: I think that you need to distinguish between true Christianity and what passes for Roman Catholicism in our generation. I was a cradle Catholic. I am no longer a Catholic, because over 30 years ago, I came into contact with men, women and children, who knew that they could be led by the Holy Spirit rather than by men, like popes, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, priests, etc.... In God's Word, we are told "There is but ONE Advocate between God and man and that is the Lord, Jesus Christ." One can clearly see from that Scripture, that we don't need a priest or any other High-hatted cleric to be our Advocate, or to stand in the place of Jesus, as His Holy Spirit is well able "to stand" for Himself! Jesus promised, "The kingdom of God is within!" Unfortunately, Rome, for centuries, has made believers feel that priests are our Advocates and that we "Need Rome," to govern "The kingdom of God." The "kingdom of God," within every man, woman and child is the ONLY kingdom that the Gates of Hell can't come against! Oh, and by the way, I understand that there have been layoffs at "Gates of Hell, LTD," since the Roman Catholic Church is doing a great job on Her own by destroying Herself, WITHOUT Hell's help!
Gearoid4 | Jul 20, 2011, 06:46 PM EDT
Eiriamach, I have a very good idea of what cultural relativism is as we are surrounded by it. Please do not accuse me of being simply an echo chamber for papal pronouncements as I have thought long and hard about my beliefs. If these particular pronouncements coincide with my train of thought, so be it and there will be no apologies for tha. As I have indicated in my previous comments, teachings such as the protection of life from conception to grave are not simply beliefs made up by a committee of Vatican prelates but are rather a reiteration of gospel values. If I find that some of your conclusions do not tally with that, please don't throw around epithets like 'gross stupidity' to distract from it. I may disagree with you on somethings but do so always out of conviction and respect.
eiriamach | Jul 20, 2011, 05:21 PM EDT
How many times do I need to repeat this: I am not an ethical relativist! Yet you insist, Gearoid4, on replying to me as though I have urged some relativist doctrine! I am beginning to think that you really have no idea what moral or cultural relativism is and that you simply repeat papal mantras, whether they are relevant or not, whenever anyone disagrees with anything you write. Nothing I have written suggests relativism in any way. What you have written, however, suggests that meaning is singular and subject to interpretation only by absolute unerring authority in the Roman Catholic Church. We should be able to disagree about meaning in the gospel without your dismissing the meaning I find there as gross stupidity. Try to have some respect, please.
Gearoid4 | Jul 20, 2011, 04:52 PM EDT
Eiriamach, Catholic, Christian values are timeless and are not subject to present secular mores. Rather they should be utilized to shape the direction that society is heading. A civilized society in the view of Catholicism protects life from conception to grave, protects the first cell of society i.e the family sanctified by traditional marriage and observes the rights of it's citizens to live, work and pray free from state oppression. If these precepts are not followed, then society has forfeited it's right to be be either just or equal. Western countries seem to view equality in terms of doling out rights to all and sundry without any objective criteria in measuring their effects on the common good. The gospel can provide a necessary corrective to this.
Gearoid4 | Jul 20, 2011, 04:46 PM EDT
Eiriamach, Gospel values are timeless and will survive all trends and fashions that are current and yet to come. We all should listen and discern when it comes to discovering these values but this does not meet fashioning them to suit the whimsical fads of our time. These precepts are not dependent on secular mores but rather should be utilized to influence the direction that social trends are heading. Equality seems to be used in it's widest meaning to include all wants and needs with no objective criteria in respect to determining if they are for the common good or not. The gospel is clear on the principles which sustain life i.e namely the right to life and dignity of all humans. The right to life from conception to grave and protection of traditional marriage. The right of people to right to live, work and worship free from state oppression or interference. Any law which violates these values are anti-gospel and by extension anti-Christ.
eiriamach | Jul 18, 2011, 02:33 PM EDT
Gearoid4, you think Anglicans "have given into modernist mores and thereby moved further away from the gospels they profess." Petitio principii, isn't it, to assume that what is "modern" is far away from the gospels? 1) Christ did not exclude women priests or homosexuals in the gospels. But He did manifest inclusiveness and equality of worth for all. 2) to fix the meaning of any gospel precept in church doctrine requires that you fit the current situation to a precept developed perhaps centuries ago, rather than assessing the current situation and then finding a gospel meaning that can include it. Your authority-in-tradition approach virtually commits you to opposing any change in social, political, ecclesiastical, or interpersonal roles-- all change will seem to violate the gospel meaning worked out once forever. In reality, the gospel has spoken to all ages and speaks to ours when we discern its core principles and rightly apply them to today's needs. In great literature, meaning is polysemous-- even in scripture it is many-layered and forever disclosing itself anew in fresh response to the questions we ask. From the my earlier quotation, "human weakness and sin ... can distort ... authority." That is the situation RCC finds itself in now, when it most needs the active help of laity, who are out of accord-- even openly hostile to-- their bishops. Decision after decision made in Rome or the dioceses goes awry. Is there any more clear indication that grace is not flowing into your 'holy remnant'? Flexibility, conciliar listening, reflection, self-criticism, openness to change are esential now.
Gearoid4 | Jul 18, 2011, 01:41 PM EDT
Eiriamach, Scripture does not simply speak to us today as it's essential truths are relevant no matter what era you chose to pick in the chronological timeline of history. My point is that the anglican communion has given up by default any claims that it had to be part of the catholic church universal by it's inadvertent moves to bless same-sex unions, allow woman priests etc. They have given into modernist mores and thereby have moved further away from the gospels they profess. Democracy is fine for nation states where there are competing interests and ethnic groups but christian beliefs cannot be settled by straw polls or ballot boxes. The great early discussions of the Church e.g Nicaea (325 A.D) or the First Council of Constantinople( 380 A.D) were conducted by bishops and theologians discussing the issues which they had to encapsulate in christian doctrine. I don't deny the present weaknesses of Vatican structures or the betrayals by bishops or priests, but I believe that the hierarchical model with lay input is the best model for governance.
marfran | Jul 17, 2011, 06:29 PM EDT
Anyone knows that a priest must obey canon law over secular/civil law. He is under oath not to reveal what is told to him in Confession. However, a sick person who is abusing chidren is not going to confess it, at any rate, as he is unable or unwilling to attempt to give it up, or even admit to himself how wrong it is (what a grave sin). He undoubtedly plans to contine to let it happen, if and when the situation presents itself, and he would not confess, admitting that is is a terrible act to commit, and that he entertained any intention to sin no more. Therefore, priests can feel unthreatened by this new law.
eiriamach | Jul 17, 2011, 02:28 PM EDT
Gearoid4, not Anglican reform but the Vatican's war against secularism abandons the gospel. You write, "The anglican church seems to be driven more by modern sociological trends than traditional gospel precepts...[and] biblically-founded consensus regarding doctrine and beliefs that was present for nearly 2 millennia." That OT consensus fails, like much of Deuteronomy & Leviticus, to accord with Christ's restatement in the two great commandments. RCC's retreat from secularism, its disdain for political virtues such as tolerance, sustains Augustine's early medieval dualism: the city of God is our only true home, and we are but exiles here in the human city. As long as Christians expected Christ's imminent return, it made sense to retreat from the work of politics and to make the Church one's 'home.' But if there were no other 'sign of the times' to show us the error of this retreat, the deterioration of our natural environment would. Human activity has brought us to near ecological disaster: we have failed to conserve nature. It was given to us to improve, not to destroy or neglect. So, yes, Anglicans read scripture as speaking to us today about the social, political, natural, interpersonal, and scientific dilemmas humanity faces. Our task is to restore all of Creation, including human nature, to the dignity endowed by the Creator. If you think of 'gospel precepts' as fixed eternally, you miss their speaking to each age about these unique challenges. Anglicans listen for eternal renewal in the ancient truths.
eiriamach | Jul 17, 2011, 01:22 PM EDT
Gearoid4, your argument against reform 'from the top down,' as mamginnty calls it, is that RCC would descend into chaos like the Anglicans if it followed such a path. This argument may turn against you when the turbulent reforms of Anglicanism begin to show forth the fruit of the Spirit in unity and organic growth. All those whom the pope has expelled or driven away because they questioned the wisdom of papal commands are people motivated to work on reform, to restore Christianity to its ancient missions. Look a few decades down the path: the southern hemisphere will share in the economic resurgence that the developed nations must launch to reverse global recession. With increase in national wealth, participation of women in public life, universal education, etc., people resist autocratic governance; they lose faith in absolute human 'authority' as they read the gospels. What was it Churchill said about democracy? That it was the worst form of government. Except for all the others! Once educated, people lose the incentive to exclude their neighbors or to relegate lesser status to some. In any case, I'd rather be rebuilding Corinth than defending Rome. It's not given to us to know for certain while the work is ongoing whether it will end right; in the words of the Robert Grant hymn, "His chariots of wrath the deep thunderclouds form, /And dark is His path on the wings of the storm." Yet I trust the uncertainty and moral courage of AB Williams far more than the unreflective certainty and well-honed enforcement strategies of an AB Storero.
Gearoid4 | Jul 17, 2011, 01:01 AM EDT
I don't disagree with you, Eiriamach on the value of internal dialogue between people who have taken up opposing viewpoints concerning debates. But the Anglican Church is experiencing more than "little fractures and departures". The divide is very substantial and the fault-line runs across many issues which divide the more liberal, wealthier northern hemisphere from the more conservative, less-wealthy, conservative south. In effect, the anglican communion is suffering the consequences of the lack of a strong central authority and a loose federation of autonomous provinces. Despite it's weaknesses, the magisterium of the Catholic Church forms a very formidable basis upon which to proclaim the perennial truths of the gospel
eiriamach | Jul 16, 2011, 11:05 PM EDT
Thorough reform rediscovers the ancient foundations of the institution, Gearoid4, so that in re-building, the reformers can adhere to the plan and purpose of the Designer. It took centuries of preaching the Word and explaining Christ's example to set up functioning Christian communities, and then centuries more of councils dealing with charges of heresy to forestall schisms in the faith. No doubt there will be little fractures and departures, but when the mist clears, there will be 85 million Anglicans in many countries around the globe in unity because of this ongoing reform. In the words of Bishops Cormac Murphy-O'Conner and Mark Santer, "Human weakness and sin do not only affect individual ministers: they can distort the human structuring of authority (cf. Mt 23). Therefore, loyal criticism and reforms are sometimes needed, following the example of Paul (cf. Gal 2.11-14). The consciousness of human frailty in the exercise of authority ensures that Christian ministers remain open to criticism and renewal and above all to exercising authority according to the example and mind of Christ." The mind of Christ, I believe, would find the Anglican **process** of dialogue and debate a surer path to unity and gospel-faithfulness than centralized decision-making could ever manage. It was the process used in laying the foundation and building the structure, and it's the process that will manifest the original purpose again in this age.
Gearoid4 | Jul 16, 2011, 05:26 PM EDT
Eiriamach, you say that the early christian communities founded by Paul were not the models of perfect calm and agreement as one would've thought. Of course they had their internal disagreements but they did not suffer internal collapse over policies that were not in tune with the gospels. Therein lies the difference between the current travails effecting anglicanism and the differences of opinion that effected the Pauline ecclesiastical settlements. The anglican church seems to be driven more by modern sociological trends than traditional gospel precepts. The Western(Catholic) and Eastern(Orthodox) wings of the church universal recognize this as they see anglicanism drift further from the biblically-founded consensus regarding doctrine and beliefs that was present for nearly 2 millennia.
eiriamach | Jul 16, 2011, 02:45 PM EDT
gearoid4, you write, "This does not mean that we should turn the model of governance into a free for all democracy where doctrines are decided on by a show of hands.... We have seen how this approach has torn the anglican communion asunder and left it in pieces over policies which are not in line with gospel values." ------------> The early Christian churches that received the epistles of Paul were not the structured hierarchies you describe. They were anarchic, with quarrels and conflicts tearing apart their communities. Similarly, the Anglican Communion is alive with chaos and conflict, in a turbulent state of becoming, but probably no more turbulent than those early Christians grumbling among themselves as they read Paul's epistles. Conflict and turbulent change are signs of LIFE. They more accurately indicate vitality than a headcount of people in the pews would indicate it, especially while many are waiting on the sidelines for the outcome of controversies about female bishops and homosexuals in full communion. Anglicans may seem to you like feuding dissenters and schismatics, but that is just what REFORM ALWAYS LOOKS LIKE in process. Try to think of it this way: Unlike Rome, Lambeth never rejected but rather embraced the reforms envisioned by V.II when ecumenical conferences between the two Churches had reached their most propitious moment. Anglicans have run on ahead of Rome, and Roman Catholics will find them waiting on the other side when Catholics finally emerge from that tumultuous, twisting, turning, painful path of reform.
Gearoid4 | Jul 16, 2011, 11:15 AM EDT
Eiriamach, you are innocently or deliberately distorting the meaning of my words. The faithful are those who are daily trying to live up the high expectations of the gospel and yet see those who are charged with protecting and guiding the flock undermining those same precepts by flagrantly disregarding them. Of course, the abusers will have to face up to a reckoning in this life and the next which cannot be denied. Those entrusted with leadership roles who have sheltered such abusers also will have to account for their actions in the next world, if not this one. Reform is definitely required but it must be in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ. You talked about 'usurped' authority as if those who have been ordained were put there illegally. It so happens that Jesus designated authority of Leadership to Peter and the apostles which was then passed down via the following generations of episcopoi(bishops) and priests(presbyters). We have seen how imperfectly some representatives of those holy ministries have carried out their duties. This does not mean that we should turn the model of governance into a free for all democracy where doctrines are decided on by a show of hands which Christ never authorized. We have seen how this approach has torn the anglican communion asunder and left it in pieces over policies which are not in line with gospel values
eiriamach | Jul 16, 2011, 10:51 AM EDT
No, Gearoid4, it's a 'dark night of the soul' only for the abusers, for priests who maintained secrecy about criminal abuse, for bishops who covered it up, and for Vatican officials who enforced their own self-interest against the civil laws of nations. For the faithful, it is a long-awaited rising sun of clarity and vindication and freedom to be practicing Christians again without consciences heavy with knowledge of actively pedophile priests, consciences enslaved to usurped 'authority.' That's 'the freedom of the children of God' that the gospels celebrate. They will set things up right in the coming reforms, with accountability to the people built in, full participation by the people in church decisions including moral doctrine, a return to the life of the spirit and renunciation of clerical lust for political power. there's a valuable discussion going on below; it confirms my sense that everything has changed and nothing can halt real reform now.
Gearoid4 | Jul 16, 2011, 10:11 AM EDT
The present crisis is indeed a 'dark night' of the soul for many of the catholic faithful, both lay and religious. Barneyjo and Tom Swinford have made intelligent and honest contributions to this debate.
Keynyata | Jul 16, 2011, 09:50 AM EDT
My greatest satisfaction and vindication for my
stance against the tyranny of irish catholicism,is the have lived long enough to see the demise of this
monstros monolith.I've always felt the danger and the negative power of the 'thing' since I was very young...when to witness one'sw parents being in fear
of the scum which passed for priests in eery Iriush community.
The cracks began to appear when the brave and maligned Annie Murphy told her story.I knew then,to my heart's delight,that it was only a matter of time before Ireland would take another step towards real freedom - that of the shaning off of the shackles of oppression from the peddlers of myth and the carriers of pure evil.
sirpeter | Jul 16, 2011, 08:24 AM EDT
I think the native Americans got the ballance right.A deep spritual grounding and a deep connection with mother nature plus a higher power to draw on in times of need.Why do humans have to make everything so complicated.TomSwinford is right we allowed intermediaries to come between ourselves and God.Our wishful thinking is been used against us.Anyone who thinks the bible is the word of God needs their head tested.It should be rated over 18's and put in the horror section of bookstores.There is also no beauty or feel good factor for children looking at the human form grusomely nailed to a cross.Lucky Jesus wasn't impailed.Christianity is just an ongoing nightmare along with the rest.
CER1940 | Jul 15, 2011, 09:06 PM EDT
Former Bishop John Magee is no more than a puppet and a godless and cowardly one at that. America covers a lot of ground. If he surfaces there he will be hounded.
barneyjo | Jul 15, 2011, 08:44 PM EDT
@TomSwinford - thank you for your kind words!! As a (struggling) practicing catholic, it gives me no pleasure to say these things about a faith and church that has sustained me through some very difficult times in my life. That is the reason I cannot dismiss out of hand the validity of the ministries of many Religious I have encountered, nor am I disposed to tar all with the one brush. That said, I have to be honest and say that I have travelled along the same road as yourself, though not quite as far (just yett). Equally, like yourself, I am sustained by my own faith in a loving and caring God that transcends the vagueries of the human condition that has done so much damage to his message in this world. I am also disposed to believe that it is a Divine hand that is shining a light on this darkness of the human soul for all to see. Blessed Pio spoke of this when he related dreams in which he encountered Jesus. In these encounters Jesus raged against the abusive power and authority of the church on earth; "Butchers; see what they have done. Were it not for the Angels I would have destroyed them all!!" Kind of makes you wonder why Pio was ever beatified.
barneyjo | Jul 15, 2011, 08:13 PM EDT
Barneyjo, I was touched by your comment. Because of this unending scandal we are all betwixt and between. I was born and raised a Catholic in Ireland. When I was a boy I loved the Latin Mass. I learned to say much of it in Latin. I loved the ritual and pomp, the processional marches. But we have been betrayed in the worst way. The scriptures do not come from God but from profoundly ignorant and bigoted old men who wrote of the world around them in their own time, a time in which there was no place for women, save for Mary. There is some wisdom in their prose but much is utter nonsense and completely irrevelent. I am no longer a practicing Catholic - but I have not lost my faith, I have lost my religion. My faith is a personal, private matter betwewen me and God and no one else, period. The world became a brutal and violent place when we allowed intermediaries to come between ourselves and our God.
Nicomax | Jul 15, 2011, 04:37 PM EDT
New York Times editorial today on this topic stated the most pertinent point relating to this entire matter. "Throughout the long scandal of sexual abuse by rogue priests, the Vatican has blatantly resisted the idea that civil law trumps church rules in confronting criminal acts." Definitive, and logical when you ask would a school principal, scout leader, athletic director, etc. be allowed to 'not confront criminal acts'.
Nicomax | Jul 15, 2011, 04:19 PM EDT
CitizenWhy,I am aware of the Church history that you refer to. During the period from the 12th century when clerics were formally banned from maintaining wives and/or concubines to the 16th century when celebacy was formally adopted within the Church, all kinds of games and evasions played out - because celebacy was such an unnatural restriction on normal, healthy human behavior. You make a fair point and one worth noting. The3 Archbishop of Dublin that you refer to must surely be the power-crazed tyrant and autocrat John Charles McQuaid.
Tropiholic | Jul 15, 2011, 04:10 PM EDT
Since they are such big believers in hell and warning all about sins, they should know where they'll end up. I hope you like the heat :)
Springfield9 | Jul 15, 2011, 02:56 PM EDT
Jail every one of the rats ...... including the facilitators - the Bishop. It didn't hurt St. Paul to spend some time locked up. It might do some of the abusers a bit of good. What would happen is the Bishop would be given Vatican citizenship and a passport.
nicgearailt | Jul 15, 2011, 02:39 PM EDT
so Magee has his own issues..surprise surprise..Will this vile episode in our history ever end ? It safe to say that we have good priests ,but are there enough of them left to sustain the church there.What was once such noble work has been disgraced by these monsters..those who destroy the lives of children should have no peace..anywhere...the fact that this Magee fellow can take himself off to America ,when this report is released in Ireland...what a coward...hope he has not been assigned to a parish in USA...keep an eye out everyone..they need to have posters circulated
The Govt in Ireland has it's work cut out ,dealing with the issues of the economy and unemployment..now they have the added responsibility of dealing with this..they need to be ruthless in both approaches..zero tolerance,henceforth.
mcbreen | Jul 15, 2011, 02:20 PM EDT
Thanks for uncovering that vast conspiracy of our dark and barbarous religion. As long as the church has the image of being flush with cash, opportunistic lawyers will seek it even if they have to dig ancient bigotries out of the grave.
barneyjo | Jul 15, 2011, 02:02 PM EDT
@joan1954 - there is no doubt that there are many priests and religious within the catholic and other christian churches who have followed their very genuine and powerful ministries. I am a practicing catholic, and I know many such people. In saying that, I have also had to reconcile myself to the fact that for all the good that is done by so many within the church, the priests and religious are bound by obedience to the greater church body which has been shown in many respects to be less than that which it held itself to be in the eyes of the world. That senior members of the hierarchy would lie to protect the reputation and respectability of the church at the expense of broken lives, broken bodies, and broken souls is both unforgiveable and inexcusable in the eyes of humanity and in the eyes of God. Those good men and women within the church are invariably tainted by association, because even if they were not active participants in abuse or other acts of terror, they were content to be part of the status quo either by turning away, or by remaining within the church and ignoring the "greater good"
joan1954 | Jul 15, 2011, 01:05 PM EDT
There are many good priests who have maintained their vows and to lump them with the rotten apples whether they be clergy or hierarchy is not fair.
themurphia | Jul 15, 2011, 12:55 PM EDT
Whoa...far too much information!
CitizenWhy | Jul 15, 2011, 12:45 PM EDT
To TomSwinford - Pedophilia was not always so universally condoned by bishops, at least not when wise Catholic bishops married themselves and encouraged the clergy to marry to avoid drunkenness, promiscuity and yes, pedophilia. During the reign of Henry VII Cardinal Wolseley was faithfully married, as were 27 of the 29 bishops of England. The two bishops who refused to cooperate with Henry were not married, and were faithful to their celibacy. Most of the 27 others did not agree with Henry's reforms but went along so that their marriages would not be interfered with. In many rural parishes of Europe, including Ireland, many, if not most, of the priests married, normally with the tacit consent of their bishops. One recent fanatically conservative Archbishop of Dublin was not a pedophile because he had the equivalent of a gay marriage with his houseboy (of age). Of course he railed in the pulpit against homosexuality and probably did not consider himself one since he was dominant. The belief that the dominant partner is not gay is still held among many.
CitizenWhy | Jul 15, 2011, 12:33 PM EDT
In orderings its clerical underlings to violate Irish law, the Vatican committed a serious offense against Irish sovereignty. Ireland should break off diplomatic relations with the Vatican.
unconvinced | Jul 15, 2011, 10:11 AM EDT
The church of Rome is soooooooo rotten it is not fit to be called a church - should be called a den of inquity - All the mass houses should have a health warning out side the door. But sadly and alas parents will bring their children into danger week after week . They all know the cruelity of this church , and all that happened in the convents and homes. I will never understand why people darkened the doors. WHat a religion of fear, they feel they must take the sacriments of the church. Don't be fooled any longer and continue in that system you will end up in hell.
IAPRINCESS | Jul 15, 2011, 09:35 AM EDT
He has a LOT to answer for. No heavenly gates for him.
IAPRINCESS | Jul 15, 2011, 08:48 AM EDT
I have maintained from the get-go that at the very highest levels of the Catholic Church and down through every diocese and parish there has always been and remains a fundamental ingrained belief that pedophilia is not really a crime, kind of like the antebellum South where slavery was described as "our peculiar institution." Indeed, sexual contact with children was considered almost an entitlement - and it didn't just start about 40 years ago, it has gone on for centuries and most of its victims are safely dead. This is not to say that all priests and bishops are pedophiles. Most, I'm sure, are not - but many of them are guilty of silence and cover-up. The accepted practice of pedophilia has existed in the shadows within the cloistered walls of the Church for millennia. We should not be surprised that the Vatican continues to stonewall. I would be surprised if it didn't. This Church will never be reformed from within. The culture of secrecy, of concealment, of "taking comfort from the children," in the words of Vincent Nichols, Archbishop of Westminster, of believing deep down within what's left of its soul that Canon Law trumps the law of the land, lives on. Reform must be forced upon this Church.
Collette2 | Jul 15, 2011, 07:41 AM EDT
I actually felt a little sorry for him being landed with all this considering his predecessor got out of the country before the ...hit the fan. Do you really believe that was his response, a polite buzz off?
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.eiriamach | Jul 25, 2011, 06:03 AM EDT
2Bor writes, "the Church will abide. Not because SOME of the people in it are horrible sinners... but because the Founder is, and He happened to promise her perpetuity." It will come as a shock to some that 2Bor considers the "Founder" of the Catholic Church a "horrible sinner" who set up a church of perpetual sin. But at least now they can conclude, from 2Bor's information, that Christ did not found it. Whew! Thanks for that message. Themurphia, many IC visitors could sound a temple police alert or a bully/ sadist alert, but you've sounded a "wiki/pedophile alert." Apparently you have more finely tuned (professional?) instincts than the rest of us, so I'll just take your word for that. It wouldn't surprise me. They're a numerous tribe, according to internet info: "A Wikipedophile is one who ... uses and/or allows Wikipedia to be used as a tool for introduction and advocation of pedophile bias point of view and/or uses and/or allows Wikipedia to be used as a tool for the illegal solicitation of children for the purposes of criminal sexual abuse, and/or is one who sympathizes with pedophiles who network globally for such purposes by their entries in Wikipedia..."
eiriamach | Jul 24, 2011, 09:21 PM EDT
OK, the test posting went through. I'd guess that the IC filters suppress mention of that particular web site I tried to refer you to, so I won't try again, but yeah! there's plenty of evidence out there not only about the history T Swinford mentions, but it's still going on.
eiriamach | Jul 24, 2011, 09:18 PM EDT
I've tried 3 times to post evidence that 2Bor challenged Tom Swinford and others to produce, but receive nothing except "comment sent," so this is a test....
themurphia | Jul 24, 2011, 07:15 PM EDT
Go back to the IT Bread/bin dear your virtual village is missing you...!
themurphia | Jul 24, 2011, 07:12 PM EDT
*Wiki/pedophile alert*...!
eiriamach | Jul 24, 2011, 12:43 PM EDT
Some followup to the discussion below-- Writing Friday in the NY Times, Laurie Goodstein tells of priests in three countries, the US, Australia, and Austria, who are challenging the Vatican on ordination of women and non-celibates: "under pressure from the Vatican, the Maryknolls have sent the first of two required 'canonical warnings' that they will dismiss [Fr. Roy Bourgeois] if he does not recant. Father Bourgeois responded that if he recanted to save his priesthood or his pension, he would be lying. 'I see this very clearly as an issue of sexism, and like racism, it’s a sin,' he said in an interview this week from his home in Georgia. 'It cannot be justified, no matter how hard we priests and church leaders, beginning with the pope, might try to justify the exclusion of women as equals. It is not the way of God. It is the way of men.'” Also, "In Australia, the church was shaken in May when Benedict XVI removed Bishop William Morris from the Diocese of Toowoomba, where he had served since 1992. The pope wrote the bishop that the teaching barring women’s ordination was 'infallible' [a much-challenged view]. The Vatican had sent AB Charles J. Chaput of Denver (named this week to be the new archbishop for ... Philadelphia) to investigate Bishop Morris. The National Council of Priests of Australia, which says it represents 40 percent of priests there, denounced the dismissal, saying that those who influenced the decision 'have limited pastoral experience.'” --->Yep, chaos! What reform always looks like! Get ready for it, Gearoid.
eiriamach | Jul 21, 2011, 07:18 PM EDT
Gearoid4, unless Christ handed a pair of testes to Peter along with the keys to the kingdom, I cannot imagine why anyone would think 'in persona Christi" means male- gendered. Or perhaps I have stupidly deluded myself all my life in thinking that women as well as men can walk in the footsteps of Christ. RC priests are male because the early doctors of the church asserted that women lacked intelligence equal to that of men and that women had a stronger propensity to sin than men. Recent church history, however, renders such claims implausible. Christ never ordained any priest, so the idea that Christ imprinted male gender on the priesthood lacks a basis in scripture, and as I've pointed out elsewhere, citing 'tradition' is not a reason not to change a tradition, but simply a way of saying that you will not consider any reason for changing a tradition. (There was once a centuries-long tradition of burning heretics at the stake, oh but RCC finally changed that tradition!) The priesthood is supposed to have nothing to do with sexual practices and thus there is no reason to reserve it to either males or females. But if the priesthood has something to do with power and authority, as you believe, than men do have a reason to reserve it to themselves, don't they?
Gearoid4 | Jul 21, 2011, 05:34 PM EDT
Concerning your points regarding authority, Eiriamach, Our Lord gave the power as outlined in the gospel of Matthew to "bind and loose" which conferred the power of making or withholding decisions regarding doctrines to Peter, the rest of the apostles and their successors.
Gearoid4 | Jul 21, 2011, 04:57 PM EDT
Thankfully the western nations in large part have made great strides in giving ladies their due both in terms of representation in parliamentary terms and increased mobility in socio-economic terms. Other parts of the world noticeably lag behind in the above regards, such as nations in the Middle-East(Israel is an exception) and Africa. The Church while recognizing the social advantages that have accrued for women, realizes as well the attributes which differentiate the sexes as well as complement them. The priesthood reflects this as the presbyter and bishop stand in Persona Christi(acts in the name or person of Jesus Christ) and thus can only be male. Jesus appointed only male disciples and the succeeding lineage has been male only in both the Catholic and Orthodox worlds. The Blessed Late Pope John Paul 11 in his encyclical "Sacerdotalis Ordinatio"(1994) stated that he had no mandate to overturn this as it has been preordained by God. Intercessor, you question if Catholicism is true Christianity or not. Jesus handed the keys of authority to Peter in Matthew 16.18 and this certainly reveals the christian roots of Catholicism. Our Lord stated that the 'gates of hades' would not prevail against it. This did not mean that there would be an absence of grievous sins on the part of Her members, both lay or religious. We have seen terrible examples of this in recent revelations but if you go back to the first generation of apostles, you will see that their sinful weaknesses were very plain. Judas betrayed his Master for 30 pieces of silver, Peter the first head of the Church denied Our Lord in His hour of need thrice, St Paul the great evangelist was a former persecutor of christians. But the hour of the first Pentecost turned their spiritual fortunes around. Likewise the Catholic Church will not be left like a friendless orphan and will be guided by the power of the Holy Spirit.
eiriamach | Jul 21, 2011, 04:46 PM EDT
Gearoid4, earlier (Jul 16 11:15), you misunderstood what I meant with the words "usurped 'authority.'" I did not mean what you took the words to mean: "You talked about 'usurped' authority as if those who have been ordained were put there illegally. It so happens that Jesus designated authority of Leadership to Peter and the apostles which was then passed down via the following generations of episcopoi (bishops) and priests (presbyters)." Actually, I meant something like what Intercessor wrote below, that Christ never bequeathed His authority to discern good from evil to any one human being, but rather imposed on all of us the responsibility to understand and live according to the Word. While the church may need priests, priests have no call from Christ to exercise "leadership" as you think. At most, their role is to "strengthen" each other. That sounds like friendship or counseling, not like setting up a hierarchy of decision-makers who decide essential matters of morality for others. Christ's words "No one comes to the Father but through me" tell me that popes and bishops get no special merit badges or points from God, that each is simply "son" or "daughter" and nothing more than finite, mortal human beings dependent on grace but at the same time carrying on the work of the Spirit in this world-- or turning away from it.
eiriamach | Jul 21, 2011, 04:05 PM EDT
Gearoid4, you write, "Gospel values are timeless and will survive all trends and fashions that are current and yet to come." I agree that the gospel offers a timeless message, but I disagree, for ex., that the social, political, and moral equality of women is a current "trend or fashion." It is very much a gospel 'value.' Christ gave several examples of honoring it. Therefore, the Anglican ordination of women as presbyters and bishops is no "whimsical fad." It is the acceptance in history by the faithful of the full implications of the gospel, the working of Spirit in history. The Anglican Communion was not hindered in reaching this realization by any historical baggage of papal doctrine excluding women and finding rationale in the gospel for doing so-- as though Christ ever advocated discrimination or depriving women of full, equal participation in religion. I realize now that you are compelled to see such a development as a secular "fashion" or "trend" or "whimsical fad" rather than as a manifestation of gospel values because, for you, scripture was interpreted once and forever by a consummate human authority, and that interpretation can not only never change but also never develop or expand beyond the human decree given once, forever. In effect, the Holy Spirit can never do "a new thing," and Creation was finished and complete on the seventh day as recorded in Genesis, so we humans have no role to play in actualizing God's plan. To me, that's an impoverished view of both human history and Creation.
Intercessor | Jul 21, 2011, 10:47 AM EDT
Sirpeter: I think that you need to distinguish between true Christianity and what passes for Roman Catholicism in our generation. I was a cradle Catholic. I am no longer a Catholic, because over 30 years ago, I came into contact with men, women and children, who knew that they could be led by the Holy Spirit rather than by men, like popes, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, priests, etc.... In God's Word, we are told "There is but ONE Advocate between God and man and that is the Lord, Jesus Christ." One can clearly see from that Scripture, that we don't need a priest or any other High-hatted cleric to be our Advocate, or to stand in the place of Jesus, as His Holy Spirit is well able "to stand" for Himself! Jesus promised, "The kingdom of God is within!" Unfortunately, Rome, for centuries, has made believers feel that priests are our Advocates and that we "Need Rome," to govern "The kingdom of God." The "kingdom of God," within every man, woman and child is the ONLY kingdom that the Gates of Hell can't come against! Oh, and by the way, I understand that there have been layoffs at "Gates of Hell, LTD," since the Roman Catholic Church is doing a great job on Her own by destroying Herself, WITHOUT Hell's help!
Gearoid4 | Jul 20, 2011, 06:46 PM EDT
Eiriamach, I have a very good idea of what cultural relativism is as we are surrounded by it. Please do not accuse me of being simply an echo chamber for papal pronouncements as I have thought long and hard about my beliefs. If these particular pronouncements coincide with my train of thought, so be it and there will be no apologies for tha. As I have indicated in my previous comments, teachings such as the protection of life from conception to grave are not simply beliefs made up by a committee of Vatican prelates but are rather a reiteration of gospel values. If I find that some of your conclusions do not tally with that, please don't throw around epithets like 'gross stupidity' to distract from it. I may disagree with you on somethings but do so always out of conviction and respect.
eiriamach | Jul 20, 2011, 05:21 PM EDT
How many times do I need to repeat this: I am not an ethical relativist! Yet you insist, Gearoid4, on replying to me as though I have urged some relativist doctrine! I am beginning to think that you really have no idea what moral or cultural relativism is and that you simply repeat papal mantras, whether they are relevant or not, whenever anyone disagrees with anything you write. Nothing I have written suggests relativism in any way. What you have written, however, suggests that meaning is singular and subject to interpretation only by absolute unerring authority in the Roman Catholic Church. We should be able to disagree about meaning in the gospel without your dismissing the meaning I find there as gross stupidity. Try to have some respect, please.
Gearoid4 | Jul 20, 2011, 04:52 PM EDT
Eiriamach, Catholic, Christian values are timeless and are not subject to present secular mores. Rather they should be utilized to shape the direction that society is heading. A civilized society in the view of Catholicism protects life from conception to grave, protects the first cell of society i.e the family sanctified by traditional marriage and observes the rights of it's citizens to live, work and pray free from state oppression. If these precepts are not followed, then society has forfeited it's right to be be either just or equal. Western countries seem to view equality in terms of doling out rights to all and sundry without any objective criteria in measuring their effects on the common good. The gospel can provide a necessary corrective to this.
Gearoid4 | Jul 20, 2011, 04:46 PM EDT
Eiriamach, Gospel values are timeless and will survive all trends and fashions that are current and yet to come. We all should listen and discern when it comes to discovering these values but this does not meet fashioning them to suit the whimsical fads of our time. These precepts are not dependent on secular mores but rather should be utilized to influence the direction that social trends are heading. Equality seems to be used in it's widest meaning to include all wants and needs with no objective criteria in respect to determining if they are for the common good or not. The gospel is clear on the principles which sustain life i.e namely the right to life and dignity of all humans. The right to life from conception to grave and protection of traditional marriage. The right of people to right to live, work and worship free from state oppression or interference. Any law which violates these values are anti-gospel and by extension anti-Christ.
eiriamach | Jul 18, 2011, 02:33 PM EDT
Gearoid4, you think Anglicans "have given into modernist mores and thereby moved further away from the gospels they profess." Petitio principii, isn't it, to assume that what is "modern" is far away from the gospels? 1) Christ did not exclude women priests or homosexuals in the gospels. But He did manifest inclusiveness and equality of worth for all. 2) to fix the meaning of any gospel precept in church doctrine requires that you fit the current situation to a precept developed perhaps centuries ago, rather than assessing the current situation and then finding a gospel meaning that can include it. Your authority-in-tradition approach virtually commits you to opposing any change in social, political, ecclesiastical, or interpersonal roles-- all change will seem to violate the gospel meaning worked out once forever. In reality, the gospel has spoken to all ages and speaks to ours when we discern its core principles and rightly apply them to today's needs. In great literature, meaning is polysemous-- even in scripture it is many-layered and forever disclosing itself anew in fresh response to the questions we ask. From the my earlier quotation, "human weakness and sin ... can distort ... authority." That is the situation RCC finds itself in now, when it most needs the active help of laity, who are out of accord-- even openly hostile to-- their bishops. Decision after decision made in Rome or the dioceses goes awry. Is there any more clear indication that grace is not flowing into your 'holy remnant'? Flexibility, conciliar listening, reflection, self-criticism, openness to change are esential now.
Gearoid4 | Jul 18, 2011, 01:41 PM EDT
Eiriamach, Scripture does not simply speak to us today as it's essential truths are relevant no matter what era you chose to pick in the chronological timeline of history. My point is that the anglican communion has given up by default any claims that it had to be part of the catholic church universal by it's inadvertent moves to bless same-sex unions, allow woman priests etc. They have given into modernist mores and thereby have moved further away from the gospels they profess. Democracy is fine for nation states where there are competing interests and ethnic groups but christian beliefs cannot be settled by straw polls or ballot boxes. The great early discussions of the Church e.g Nicaea (325 A.D) or the First Council of Constantinople( 380 A.D) were conducted by bishops and theologians discussing the issues which they had to encapsulate in christian doctrine. I don't deny the present weaknesses of Vatican structures or the betrayals by bishops or priests, but I believe that the hierarchical model with lay input is the best model for governance.
marfran | Jul 17, 2011, 06:29 PM EDT
Anyone knows that a priest must obey canon law over secular/civil law. He is under oath not to reveal what is told to him in Confession. However, a sick person who is abusing chidren is not going to confess it, at any rate, as he is unable or unwilling to attempt to give it up, or even admit to himself how wrong it is (what a grave sin). He undoubtedly plans to contine to let it happen, if and when the situation presents itself, and he would not confess, admitting that is is a terrible act to commit, and that he entertained any intention to sin no more. Therefore, priests can feel unthreatened by this new law.
eiriamach | Jul 17, 2011, 02:28 PM EDT
Gearoid4, not Anglican reform but the Vatican's war against secularism abandons the gospel. You write, "The anglican church seems to be driven more by modern sociological trends than traditional gospel precepts...[and] biblically-founded consensus regarding doctrine and beliefs that was present for nearly 2 millennia." That OT consensus fails, like much of Deuteronomy & Leviticus, to accord with Christ's restatement in the two great commandments. RCC's retreat from secularism, its disdain for political virtues such as tolerance, sustains Augustine's early medieval dualism: the city of God is our only true home, and we are but exiles here in the human city. As long as Christians expected Christ's imminent return, it made sense to retreat from the work of politics and to make the Church one's 'home.' But if there were no other 'sign of the times' to show us the error of this retreat, the deterioration of our natural environment would. Human activity has brought us to near ecological disaster: we have failed to conserve nature. It was given to us to improve, not to destroy or neglect. So, yes, Anglicans read scripture as speaking to us today about the social, political, natural, interpersonal, and scientific dilemmas humanity faces. Our task is to restore all of Creation, including human nature, to the dignity endowed by the Creator. If you think of 'gospel precepts' as fixed eternally, you miss their speaking to each age about these unique challenges. Anglicans listen for eternal renewal in the ancient truths.
eiriamach | Jul 17, 2011, 01:22 PM EDT
Gearoid4, your argument against reform 'from the top down,' as mamginnty calls it, is that RCC would descend into chaos like the Anglicans if it followed such a path. This argument may turn against you when the turbulent reforms of Anglicanism begin to show forth the fruit of the Spirit in unity and organic growth. All those whom the pope has expelled or driven away because they questioned the wisdom of papal commands are people motivated to work on reform, to restore Christianity to its ancient missions. Look a few decades down the path: the southern hemisphere will share in the economic resurgence that the developed nations must launch to reverse global recession. With increase in national wealth, participation of women in public life, universal education, etc., people resist autocratic governance; they lose faith in absolute human 'authority' as they read the gospels. What was it Churchill said about democracy? That it was the worst form of government. Except for all the others! Once educated, people lose the incentive to exclude their neighbors or to relegate lesser status to some. In any case, I'd rather be rebuilding Corinth than defending Rome. It's not given to us to know for certain while the work is ongoing whether it will end right; in the words of the Robert Grant hymn, "His chariots of wrath the deep thunderclouds form, /And dark is His path on the wings of the storm." Yet I trust the uncertainty and moral courage of AB Williams far more than the unreflective certainty and well-honed enforcement strategies of an AB Storero.
Gearoid4 | Jul 17, 2011, 01:01 AM EDT
I don't disagree with you, Eiriamach on the value of internal dialogue between people who have taken up opposing viewpoints concerning debates. But the Anglican Church is experiencing more than "little fractures and departures". The divide is very substantial and the fault-line runs across many issues which divide the more liberal, wealthier northern hemisphere from the more conservative, less-wealthy, conservative south. In effect, the anglican communion is suffering the consequences of the lack of a strong central authority and a loose federation of autonomous provinces. Despite it's weaknesses, the magisterium of the Catholic Church forms a very formidable basis upon which to proclaim the perennial truths of the gospel
eiriamach | Jul 16, 2011, 11:05 PM EDT
Thorough reform rediscovers the ancient foundations of the institution, Gearoid4, so that in re-building, the reformers can adhere to the plan and purpose of the Designer. It took centuries of preaching the Word and explaining Christ's example to set up functioning Christian communities, and then centuries more of councils dealing with charges of heresy to forestall schisms in the faith. No doubt there will be little fractures and departures, but when the mist clears, there will be 85 million Anglicans in many countries around the globe in unity because of this ongoing reform. In the words of Bishops Cormac Murphy-O'Conner and Mark Santer, "Human weakness and sin do not only affect individual ministers: they can distort the human structuring of authority (cf. Mt 23). Therefore, loyal criticism and reforms are sometimes needed, following the example of Paul (cf. Gal 2.11-14). The consciousness of human frailty in the exercise of authority ensures that Christian ministers remain open to criticism and renewal and above all to exercising authority according to the example and mind of Christ." The mind of Christ, I believe, would find the Anglican **process** of dialogue and debate a surer path to unity and gospel-faithfulness than centralized decision-making could ever manage. It was the process used in laying the foundation and building the structure, and it's the process that will manifest the original purpose again in this age.
Gearoid4 | Jul 16, 2011, 05:26 PM EDT
Eiriamach, you say that the early christian communities founded by Paul were not the models of perfect calm and agreement as one would've thought. Of course they had their internal disagreements but they did not suffer internal collapse over policies that were not in tune with the gospels. Therein lies the difference between the current travails effecting anglicanism and the differences of opinion that effected the Pauline ecclesiastical settlements. The anglican church seems to be driven more by modern sociological trends than traditional gospel precepts. The Western(Catholic) and Eastern(Orthodox) wings of the church universal recognize this as they see anglicanism drift further from the biblically-founded consensus regarding doctrine and beliefs that was present for nearly 2 millennia.
eiriamach | Jul 16, 2011, 02:45 PM EDT
gearoid4, you write, "This does not mean that we should turn the model of governance into a free for all democracy where doctrines are decided on by a show of hands.... We have seen how this approach has torn the anglican communion asunder and left it in pieces over policies which are not in line with gospel values." ------------> The early Christian churches that received the epistles of Paul were not the structured hierarchies you describe. They were anarchic, with quarrels and conflicts tearing apart their communities. Similarly, the Anglican Communion is alive with chaos and conflict, in a turbulent state of becoming, but probably no more turbulent than those early Christians grumbling among themselves as they read Paul's epistles. Conflict and turbulent change are signs of LIFE. They more accurately indicate vitality than a headcount of people in the pews would indicate it, especially while many are waiting on the sidelines for the outcome of controversies about female bishops and homosexuals in full communion. Anglicans may seem to you like feuding dissenters and schismatics, but that is just what REFORM ALWAYS LOOKS LIKE in process. Try to think of it this way: Unlike Rome, Lambeth never rejected but rather embraced the reforms envisioned by V.II when ecumenical conferences between the two Churches had reached their most propitious moment. Anglicans have run on ahead of Rome, and Roman Catholics will find them waiting on the other side when Catholics finally emerge from that tumultuous, twisting, turning, painful path of reform.
Gearoid4 | Jul 16, 2011, 11:15 AM EDT
Eiriamach, you are innocently or deliberately distorting the meaning of my words. The faithful are those who are daily trying to live up the high expectations of the gospel and yet see those who are charged with protecting and guiding the flock undermining those same precepts by flagrantly disregarding them. Of course, the abusers will have to face up to a reckoning in this life and the next which cannot be denied. Those entrusted with leadership roles who have sheltered such abusers also will have to account for their actions in the next world, if not this one. Reform is definitely required but it must be in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ. You talked about 'usurped' authority as if those who have been ordained were put there illegally. It so happens that Jesus designated authority of Leadership to Peter and the apostles which was then passed down via the following generations of episcopoi(bishops) and priests(presbyters). We have seen how imperfectly some representatives of those holy ministries have carried out their duties. This does not mean that we should turn the model of governance into a free for all democracy where doctrines are decided on by a show of hands which Christ never authorized. We have seen how this approach has torn the anglican communion asunder and left it in pieces over policies which are not in line with gospel values
eiriamach | Jul 16, 2011, 10:51 AM EDT
No, Gearoid4, it's a 'dark night of the soul' only for the abusers, for priests who maintained secrecy about criminal abuse, for bishops who covered it up, and for Vatican officials who enforced their own self-interest against the civil laws of nations. For the faithful, it is a long-awaited rising sun of clarity and vindication and freedom to be practicing Christians again without consciences heavy with knowledge of actively pedophile priests, consciences enslaved to usurped 'authority.' That's 'the freedom of the children of God' that the gospels celebrate. They will set things up right in the coming reforms, with accountability to the people built in, full participation by the people in church decisions including moral doctrine, a return to the life of the spirit and renunciation of clerical lust for political power. there's a valuable discussion going on below; it confirms my sense that everything has changed and nothing can halt real reform now.
Gearoid4 | Jul 16, 2011, 10:11 AM EDT
The present crisis is indeed a 'dark night' of the soul for many of the catholic faithful, both lay and religious. Barneyjo and Tom Swinford have made intelligent and honest contributions to this debate.
Keynyata | Jul 16, 2011, 09:50 AM EDT
My greatest satisfaction and vindication for my stance against the tyranny of irish catholicism,is the have lived long enough to see the demise of this monstros monolith.I've always felt the danger and the negative power of the 'thing' since I was very young...when to witness one'sw parents being in fear of the scum which passed for priests in eery Iriush community. The cracks began to appear when the brave and maligned Annie Murphy told her story.I knew then,to my heart's delight,that it was only a matter of time before Ireland would take another step towards real freedom - that of the shaning off of the shackles of oppression from the peddlers of myth and the carriers of pure evil.
sirpeter | Jul 16, 2011, 08:24 AM EDT
I think the native Americans got the ballance right.A deep spritual grounding and a deep connection with mother nature plus a higher power to draw on in times of need.Why do humans have to make everything so complicated.TomSwinford is right we allowed intermediaries to come between ourselves and God.Our wishful thinking is been used against us.Anyone who thinks the bible is the word of God needs their head tested.It should be rated over 18's and put in the horror section of bookstores.There is also no beauty or feel good factor for children looking at the human form grusomely nailed to a cross.Lucky Jesus wasn't impailed.Christianity is just an ongoing nightmare along with the rest.
CER1940 | Jul 15, 2011, 09:06 PM EDT
Former Bishop John Magee is no more than a puppet and a godless and cowardly one at that. America covers a lot of ground. If he surfaces there he will be hounded.
barneyjo | Jul 15, 2011, 08:44 PM EDT
@TomSwinford - thank you for your kind words!! As a (struggling) practicing catholic, it gives me no pleasure to say these things about a faith and church that has sustained me through some very difficult times in my life. That is the reason I cannot dismiss out of hand the validity of the ministries of many Religious I have encountered, nor am I disposed to tar all with the one brush. That said, I have to be honest and say that I have travelled along the same road as yourself, though not quite as far (just yett). Equally, like yourself, I am sustained by my own faith in a loving and caring God that transcends the vagueries of the human condition that has done so much damage to his message in this world. I am also disposed to believe that it is a Divine hand that is shining a light on this darkness of the human soul for all to see. Blessed Pio spoke of this when he related dreams in which he encountered Jesus. In these encounters Jesus raged against the abusive power and authority of the church on earth; "Butchers; see what they have done. Were it not for the Angels I would have destroyed them all!!" Kind of makes you wonder why Pio was ever beatified.
barneyjo | Jul 15, 2011, 08:13 PM EDT
Barneyjo, I was touched by your comment. Because of this unending scandal we are all betwixt and between. I was born and raised a Catholic in Ireland. When I was a boy I loved the Latin Mass. I learned to say much of it in Latin. I loved the ritual and pomp, the processional marches. But we have been betrayed in the worst way. The scriptures do not come from God but from profoundly ignorant and bigoted old men who wrote of the world around them in their own time, a time in which there was no place for women, save for Mary. There is some wisdom in their prose but much is utter nonsense and completely irrevelent. I am no longer a practicing Catholic - but I have not lost my faith, I have lost my religion. My faith is a personal, private matter betwewen me and God and no one else, period. The world became a brutal and violent place when we allowed intermediaries to come between ourselves and our God.
Nicomax | Jul 15, 2011, 04:37 PM EDT
New York Times editorial today on this topic stated the most pertinent point relating to this entire matter. "Throughout the long scandal of sexual abuse by rogue priests, the Vatican has blatantly resisted the idea that civil law trumps church rules in confronting criminal acts." Definitive, and logical when you ask would a school principal, scout leader, athletic director, etc. be allowed to 'not confront criminal acts'.
Nicomax | Jul 15, 2011, 04:19 PM EDT
CitizenWhy,I am aware of the Church history that you refer to. During the period from the 12th century when clerics were formally banned from maintaining wives and/or concubines to the 16th century when celebacy was formally adopted within the Church, all kinds of games and evasions played out - because celebacy was such an unnatural restriction on normal, healthy human behavior. You make a fair point and one worth noting. The3 Archbishop of Dublin that you refer to must surely be the power-crazed tyrant and autocrat John Charles McQuaid.
Tropiholic | Jul 15, 2011, 04:10 PM EDT
Since they are such big believers in hell and warning all about sins, they should know where they'll end up. I hope you like the heat :)
Springfield9 | Jul 15, 2011, 02:56 PM EDT
Jail every one of the rats ...... including the facilitators - the Bishop. It didn't hurt St. Paul to spend some time locked up. It might do some of the abusers a bit of good. What would happen is the Bishop would be given Vatican citizenship and a passport.
nicgearailt | Jul 15, 2011, 02:39 PM EDT
so Magee has his own issues..surprise surprise..Will this vile episode in our history ever end ? It safe to say that we have good priests ,but are there enough of them left to sustain the church there.What was once such noble work has been disgraced by these monsters..those who destroy the lives of children should have no peace..anywhere...the fact that this Magee fellow can take himself off to America ,when this report is released in Ireland...what a coward...hope he has not been assigned to a parish in USA...keep an eye out everyone..they need to have posters circulated The Govt in Ireland has it's work cut out ,dealing with the issues of the economy and unemployment..now they have the added responsibility of dealing with this..they need to be ruthless in both approaches..zero tolerance,henceforth.
mcbreen | Jul 15, 2011, 02:20 PM EDT
Thanks for uncovering that vast conspiracy of our dark and barbarous religion. As long as the church has the image of being flush with cash, opportunistic lawyers will seek it even if they have to dig ancient bigotries out of the grave.
barneyjo | Jul 15, 2011, 02:02 PM EDT
@joan1954 - there is no doubt that there are many priests and religious within the catholic and other christian churches who have followed their very genuine and powerful ministries. I am a practicing catholic, and I know many such people. In saying that, I have also had to reconcile myself to the fact that for all the good that is done by so many within the church, the priests and religious are bound by obedience to the greater church body which has been shown in many respects to be less than that which it held itself to be in the eyes of the world. That senior members of the hierarchy would lie to protect the reputation and respectability of the church at the expense of broken lives, broken bodies, and broken souls is both unforgiveable and inexcusable in the eyes of humanity and in the eyes of God. Those good men and women within the church are invariably tainted by association, because even if they were not active participants in abuse or other acts of terror, they were content to be part of the status quo either by turning away, or by remaining within the church and ignoring the "greater good"
joan1954 | Jul 15, 2011, 01:05 PM EDT
There are many good priests who have maintained their vows and to lump them with the rotten apples whether they be clergy or hierarchy is not fair.
themurphia | Jul 15, 2011, 12:55 PM EDT
Whoa...far too much information!
CitizenWhy | Jul 15, 2011, 12:45 PM EDT
To TomSwinford - Pedophilia was not always so universally condoned by bishops, at least not when wise Catholic bishops married themselves and encouraged the clergy to marry to avoid drunkenness, promiscuity and yes, pedophilia. During the reign of Henry VII Cardinal Wolseley was faithfully married, as were 27 of the 29 bishops of England. The two bishops who refused to cooperate with Henry were not married, and were faithful to their celibacy. Most of the 27 others did not agree with Henry's reforms but went along so that their marriages would not be interfered with. In many rural parishes of Europe, including Ireland, many, if not most, of the priests married, normally with the tacit consent of their bishops. One recent fanatically conservative Archbishop of Dublin was not a pedophile because he had the equivalent of a gay marriage with his houseboy (of age). Of course he railed in the pulpit against homosexuality and probably did not consider himself one since he was dominant. The belief that the dominant partner is not gay is still held among many.
CitizenWhy | Jul 15, 2011, 12:33 PM EDT
In orderings its clerical underlings to violate Irish law, the Vatican committed a serious offense against Irish sovereignty. Ireland should break off diplomatic relations with the Vatican.
unconvinced | Jul 15, 2011, 10:11 AM EDT
The church of Rome is soooooooo rotten it is not fit to be called a church - should be called a den of inquity - All the mass houses should have a health warning out side the door. But sadly and alas parents will bring their children into danger week after week . They all know the cruelity of this church , and all that happened in the convents and homes. I will never understand why people darkened the doors. WHat a religion of fear, they feel they must take the sacriments of the church. Don't be fooled any longer and continue in that system you will end up in hell.
IAPRINCESS | Jul 15, 2011, 09:35 AM EDT
He has a LOT to answer for. No heavenly gates for him.
IAPRINCESS | Jul 15, 2011, 08:48 AM EDT
I have maintained from the get-go that at the very highest levels of the Catholic Church and down through every diocese and parish there has always been and remains a fundamental ingrained belief that pedophilia is not really a crime, kind of like the antebellum South where slavery was described as "our peculiar institution." Indeed, sexual contact with children was considered almost an entitlement - and it didn't just start about 40 years ago, it has gone on for centuries and most of its victims are safely dead. This is not to say that all priests and bishops are pedophiles. Most, I'm sure, are not - but many of them are guilty of silence and cover-up. The accepted practice of pedophilia has existed in the shadows within the cloistered walls of the Church for millennia. We should not be surprised that the Vatican continues to stonewall. I would be surprised if it didn't. This Church will never be reformed from within. The culture of secrecy, of concealment, of "taking comfort from the children," in the words of Vincent Nichols, Archbishop of Westminster, of believing deep down within what's left of its soul that Canon Law trumps the law of the land, lives on. Reform must be forced upon this Church.
Collette2 | Jul 15, 2011, 07:41 AM EDT
I actually felt a little sorry for him being landed with all this considering his predecessor got out of the country before the ...hit the fan. Do you really believe that was his response, a polite buzz off?