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Home Page > Blogs > News blogs > People and Politics > The end of liberalism in religion predicted by Ross Douthat in NY Times -- Says Catholicism will prevail because of sticking with the old ways

People and Politics by Patrick Roberts

The end of liberalism in religion predicted by Ross Douthat in NY Times -- Says Catholicism will prevail because of sticking with the old ways

Posted on Monday, July 16, 2012 at 09:19 AM

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eiriamach | Oct 09, 2012, 01:27 PM EDT

@Seanmor, Jesus was quoting from Genesis and opposing DIVORCE when he said, "at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ ... ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’" He was certainly not commenting on the genders of sexual partners! In Genesis, where we first read these words, it's clear that Adam and Eve have NO "father and mother" except their Creator, so the words must refer, appropriately for a Creation story, to the succession of generations, one after another, and to each generating anew (husband and wife become "one flesh" in their children). You abuse the bible when you quote it to support exclusion of gays and lesbians from any institution. Christ gave no judgment on sexual orientation, and I commend that approach to you.

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Seanmor | Sep 20, 2012, 08:43 PM EDT

If R.C. prelates were to emprace homosexuals,figuratively and physically, it would cause a huge increase in addendence at mass and other services. Apparently many, if not all, bishops and cardinals are aware that Jesus Christ said, " man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife". The Redeemer never suggested that a man should cleave to his same-sex partner.

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sparticusnorth | Jul 28, 2012, 06:48 PM EDT

catholicabusesurvivorsni------come to ireland and see the collapse of the paedophile church of rome , a manmade unscriptural money making scam that the vast mjority of catholics have had their eyes opened to, the devils in dog collars will never be trusted again, christ offers true salvation not a life of must do that leads to destruction.

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seanomelb | Jul 19, 2012, 12:19 AM EDT

Schon is a know anti Catholic and a former serving soldier of her majesty stationed in Belfast.Maybe he should look at the number of Anglicans defecting to the Catholic church and there declining adherents.His narrow anti catholic views precludes him from from objectively looking at the protestant churches. His view of other religions is flawed and without merit.

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WoundedKnee | Jul 18, 2012, 10:32 AM EDT

mairint: Your point about the toxic effect of "Airport hanger style churches" is an interesting one. Both in Ireland and here in the US, the Catholic churches that have been built in the past few decades are invariably ugly and do not uplift in the way the old architecture did. I am not saying they are responsible for the betrayal by some priests, laity and religious, but maybe they are symptomatic of something deeper?

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WoundedKnee | Jul 18, 2012, 10:26 AM EDT

SCHON: "The only world religion that is in decline is the Catholic religion". It might be a good idea to know something about a topic before posting on it, Schon. In this case, your claim that Catholicism is in decline is flat out wrong, based on any world estimate of numbers of Catholics. Or maybe you think African Catholics don't deserve to be counted?

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WoundedKnee | Jul 18, 2012, 10:23 AM EDT

rpbrown: "the number of people who don't go to church at all but say they are Christian". Oh, you mean like the number of people who enjoy a regular Big Mac or Chicken McNuggets and say they're vegetarian?

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rpbrown | Jul 18, 2012, 02:09 AM EDT

I think he hastily deduces what is happening in the statistics. There are many other factors at play here than some simplistic liberal vs. conservative comparison. If Douthat is correct however that conservative christianity will fare better than liberal Christianity, I would say it is because conservative Christianity and Catholicism is more fear based so those who follow it will feel the need to be more involved in the church. With the liberals, they may feel a loyalty to Christianity, but experience no "or else you go to hell" fear if they don't go to church, thus their numbers decline. A more accurate assessment of liberal vs. conservative is the number of people who don't go to church at all but say they are Christian....those people are likely to be liberal and I do think their numbers are growing.

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Schon | Jul 17, 2012, 10:51 PM EDT

The only world religion that is in decline is the Catholic religion, both Roman and non Roman. Buddhism, Muslim and Hinduism are all on the rise. Main reason for the fall in Christianity has been the education, in particular secular education of the masses. This has had the effect of proving citizens with the ability to reason and identify contradictions that conflate religious belief. As long as the Roman Church retains the reins of education it will survive as it has over the last 1700 or so years. In the past it has not been known for its liberalism and I suspect that the future will will prove Douthat correct.

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AlunPalmer | Jul 17, 2012, 05:34 PM EDT

The fastest way to ensure the collapse of the church is to decry liberal views. That's fine by me. It's a miracle they didn't go under years ago.

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snakehips | Jul 17, 2012, 03:04 PM EDT

The view of people like Douthatis a fantasy of what they would like to see. In the next 20 years most of the Catholics who attend Mass will be dead and the remainder will be those who can't walk and chew gum at the same time because they are waiting for directions from the immoral bastards who run the roman church. Our Lord is probably so ashamed of the roman church that rapes and pillages while telling everyone else who to sleep with and how to live. The World is so much smarter than this archaic house of perversion.

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eiriamach | Jul 17, 2012, 12:19 PM EDT

Where is the usual flood of comments about how anti-Catholic the NY Times is? Thunderous outcries against the NY Times erupt from IC comment boxes whenever a Times reporter dares to write the latest episode in the never-ending RC sexual abuse scandals. The usual complaints about the "usual" Times bias are missing here, but not to worry, they will return as soon as another court convicts another pedophile priest and Ross Douhat's speculations are forgotten in the Times' reporting of "biased" facts.

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mairint | Jul 17, 2012, 09:47 AM EDT

Liberalism has been loosing its grip on the Catholic Church for some time. It, like most modern fads, has grown out of fashion. Airport hanger style churches are shabby and old fashioned too. Classical old churches and the return to classical building enable more spiritual devotion. Douthat's observations are correct. Here in Australia the 'Mass of all time' in Latin grows steadily more popular as younger people find its satisfying depth. Likewise in my previous parish in Canada. Deo Gratias.

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mairint | Jul 17, 2012, 09:31 AM EDT

Where did my comment go??

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Nicoletta | Jul 17, 2012, 08:32 AM EDT

Douhart is right. My traditional parish is in the US Midwest. Daily Mass attendance is high with Latin Mass every morning. There are many very large families, some of whom home-school, thus, the church is packed with children. Lots of young adults, firm in their faith too and many vocations to religious life. Deo Gratias!

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Nicoletta | Jul 17, 2012, 12:32 AM EDT

Douthat is correct. The catholic church has survived for over 2000 years because there was always an element of faithful how upheld traditional teachings and doctrine. The Church militant has always prevailed even in the face of numerous heresies and scandals throughout the ages. Christ said that his church would endure until the end of time and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. So far he has been right.

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seanomelb | Jul 16, 2012, 06:14 PM EDT

Misneac should remind himself that their was once 10 masses on a sunday in Ireland starting at 7am. All religions are losing there numbers.As people become more educated they realise how ridiculous it is. Most people now understand how they were conned by priests,pastors rabis and mullahs.

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merefalow | Jul 16, 2012, 06:09 PM EDT

churches are chameleons,churches are authoritarianism,churches kill people who don't adhere to their strictures,churches have worshipped everything under the sun including the sun,churches have sacrificed little children,churches have held mankind in thrall through superstitious dread from time forgotten,worshipping something that has never shown any proof of his her its existence,but has allowed the most brutal military killing machines to continue unchallenged,bringing untold unremitting horror to generations,its more than time that science logic, Darwin,and reason were adopted by the human race,but when you get white university educated people committing mass suicide because they believe a bloody spaceship is in the tail of the hailebop comet,the mind goes numb with disbelief.its easy to con humanity. was ,

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DannyBoyG | Jul 16, 2012, 04:58 PM EDT

misneac - how do you breathe with your head buried so far in the sand?? Say whatever you will...no need for us or anyone to go back in forth in argument. Time is just going to prove how wrong you are. Enjoy the sailing...before the ship sinks!

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teryclarke | Jul 16, 2012, 04:25 PM EDT

Hello Mr. Roberts: Thanks for the article. The trouble with The Church remains the same as it always has been. An entrenched bureaucracy of priests has worked for 2 millennia to sustain itself and its power over The Church's followers. It stands as a kind of wrecked, maundering hulk between the Catholic faithful and the burning light of their wish for a personal faith of their own. The most recent transgressions by that bureaucracy (child molestation and its cover-up, the continued condemnation of women to second-class status, the deaf ear to suggestions from those who may wish to remain Catholic, but under a different kind of leadership)...all these simply take their place in line behind the other offenses committed by the go-along, paper-shuffling priesthood of the last few thousand years. From the pope on down... Terence Clarke author of Little Bridget and The Flames of Hell

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FastEddy | Jul 16, 2012, 01:32 PM EDT

Mmmm ... the separation of church and state ... and about time too. The last thing any country needs is religion messing about in politics.

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misneac | Jul 16, 2012, 12:30 PM EDT

The usual media comment " in Ireland the people are leaving the Church in droves " ! Total nonsense ,I do not see any decline in the numbers attending Sat.evening Mass .Also ,there are queues of people organising weddings ,funerals etc.The recent Eucharistic Congress ,although barely reported by our "progressive" media was an outstanding success . In any event ,the average Catholic does not give a hoot about your propoganda !

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Portia777 | Jul 16, 2012, 12:30 PM EDT

SeamusMor | Jul 16, 2012, 11:57 AM EDT The Church is 2000 years old. One day she will be 4,000 years old. She is as constant as the North Star, eternal, and impregnable; an anchor of values in trend tossed seas. Without her, we are dust in the wind." You best research a bit more. The ROMAN church usurped the ancient Catholic church 2,000 years ago. The Roman church has nothing to do with the ancient HER church. So you think the church that has murdered millions of human beings, raped, tortured, pillaged in order to bring people like you under its yoke will survive?

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jamthecat | Jul 16, 2012, 12:02 PM EDT

Really? Seems to me the old ways are what's sinking the Catholic Church. Male domination. Protecting priests who rape little girls and boys. No honest discussions of birth control or family planning. This "my way or the highway" attitude so many in the hierarchy have. Ross is being premature in his proclamations. Religions will always survive in some form or other; hell, the Catholic Church even survived Martin Luther, the Inquisition, and Henry VIII. But it won't be in its current form; it's been acting like a criminal enterprise for too long for that to be allowed to continue.

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SeamusMor | Jul 16, 2012, 11:57 AM EDT

The Church is 2000 years old. One day she will be 4,000 years old. She is as constant as the North Star, eternal, and impregnable; an anchor of values in trend tossed seas. Without her, we are dust in the wind.

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howareya | Jul 16, 2012, 11:44 AM EDT

True, WoundedKnee...good post.

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Murph46 | Jul 16, 2012, 10:45 AM EDT

Citizen Why -your numbers are off,Muslim is #2 in the US with huge mosques in many cities.

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WoundedKnee | Jul 16, 2012, 10:20 AM EDT

Citizenwhy..you really are ignorant of Hispanic Evangelical Protestant churches. I know them, because I have lived in Latin America. You whine about the Catholic Church being conservative --and thereby also show how little you know-- while you seem unaware of the fact that Evangelical Protestant churches in Latin America are invariably linked with the oligarchy and the military. They preach a doctrine of Get RIch under capitalism--and pay your tithes in the meantime.

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WoundedKnee | Jul 16, 2012, 09:50 AM EDT

The Catholic Church has survived 2,000 years of attempts to destroy it, starting with the blood of the martyrs. The Catholic Church will still be standing when so many other Christian denominations are folding. Why? Because the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Regarding the numbers of people practicing, this has always waxed and waned over the millennia. When the prideful have had their bellies full of pleasure and realize it is all vanity, then they or their offspring will return. Again, we must ask why: because the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. The fact that it is standing now for over 2,000 years, despite attempts to crush it (again, martyrdom is a good example of that) is solid evidence that Mother Church does indeed hold the truth and the right path to life.

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CitizenWhy | Jul 16, 2012, 09:44 AM EDT

Mean-minded and mean-mouthed and rigid Christianity is definitely the future of Christianity, at least in the USA. ... Catholicism will shrink, as its right wing wants, into about 25-40% of its current numbers in the US. After Catholicism, the second largest "religion" in America is made up of ex-Catholics. And the Catholic church is already losing many US Hispanics, especially where the Protestant groups allow them to keep their images of Mary. Abroad the strength in numbers in the emerging nations is questionable. There has been a steep decline every 10 years in Brazil of the number of people identifying themselves as Catholics. And many who call themselves Catholic would also practice their version of Santeria, thus explaining their devotion to the Catholic saints. ... The future for Catholicism in the US is not so bright. But the church's future is definitely rigid and untra-conservative in both dogma and politics. In actuality the church has always been a very, very conservative force. Where it remains so conservative, yet many Catholics think liberally, it undergoes a steep decline in numbers. ... many Catholics will simply disappear, as they did in the US South, because there are too few priests to keep things going. Rich, conservative parishes will get priests. Other parishes will be left to languish.

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