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People and Politics by Patrick Roberts

De Valera was the Irish equivalent of Korean dictator Kim Yung Il

Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 at 05:51 AM

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sirpeter | Dec 21, 2011, 05:08 PM EST

Scotchtommy.At that point after the war.The Jews didn't have much power.We didn't need aid.Not comparing to war torn Europe.(Ireland,the Sterling Area and the European Recovery Program, 1947 – 1948)Georgie boy is talking through his behind as usual.Seriously it was nothing to do with Dev.

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sirpeter | Dec 21, 2011, 04:58 PM EST

Scotchtommy.I know you never said Dev was Anti Semitic.I know you didn't mean to imply that.I'll tell you why we got peanuts.Irish GNP per capita in 1947/1948 was more than 3 times the level in Greece, 2.5 times the level in Italy and Austria and substantially higher than in Denmark, Germany,and the Netherlands.Therefore, Whitaker’s memorandum hardly provided a convincing case for Ireland in receiving aid.Also Ireland was the second best fed Country in Europe after Denmark.It was nothing got to do with Dev. receiving additional Marshall aid.

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Scotchtommy | Dec 21, 2011, 02:46 PM EST

Sirpeter ,George Dillon et al.Guys -you're missing the point .I never said for a moment that De Valera was inherently Anti Semitic.Sure he enshrined all the religious freedoms for everybody in the Irish Constitution.Great.Terrific.Wonderful.But then (AFTER the gas chambers, the death camps, the loathsome horrors of Nazism become known)he does the dumbest thing he ever did in his life and expresses his condolences on the death of the man WHO CARRIED OUT these atrocities.Forget the Brits.If you were a Jew in those days what would you think of a man like that.By the way -check out how much Marshall Aid Ireland received.Compared with Britain,Fascist Spain, Germany, Italy, Japan etc..Ireland got peanuts.Why?Dev's condolenses?

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ancavker | Dec 21, 2011, 01:27 PM EST

Sorry should have said De Valera was in agreement with the treaty except for the oath issue.

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ancavker | Dec 21, 2011, 01:26 PM EST

Perhaps people should study the man more, and the time he lived in before tearing the man apart. Oh and to the poster who claimed he eventually signed the treaty, what is that all about. He never signed the treaty, although he was in basic agreement with it except for the issue. That is the problem with mathematic centered people (as was De Valera) it was either plus or minus, he could not think outside of the box. However, this blame that he gets for starting the civil war is simply wrong. He was just the face of the opposition. And while I sympathize with the anti- treaty side, not accepting the treaty turned out to be disastrous. The British were going to give no more at this point, and the one key issue that Collins got reluctantly from Churchill was fiscal independence, this in fact meant real Independence, not the Home Rule talk shop that so many revisionists now say Ireland would have gotten had they just behaved themselves, and not fought for independence.

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sirpeter | Dec 21, 2011, 10:28 AM EST

@Scotchtommy.To understand Dev,a person really has to study the guy.He was pretty complex.During the 1930s, de Valera had systematically stripped down the Irish Free State constitution.He was the first to specifically enshrine in any nations constitution the protection and right of Jewish congregations.He didn't just say freedom of all religions.That was very important considering for centuries the Jews were getting a hard time everywhere including the U.S.A.This was Dev giving Hitler and Germany the two fingers in 1937.How many people know about that? The Brits put Dev under fierce pressure to enter the war and in my reckoning giving the Brits the finger by giving his condolences to the German Minister in Dublin was his way of saying.We are now a sovereign nation and ye couldn't bully us into the war.Devs plan was to try and make Ireland totally self-sufficient.That was stupid in my opinion.But showing the world Irish sovereignty was everything to him and to hell with the Marshall Plan.He was not a Nazi sympathizer or anti-semitic.He was cutting the ties with England.With history the mistake a lot of people make in understanding historic motives is they apply modern ways of thinking to an era that was totally different and had different mindsets and laws.

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GeorgeDillon | Dec 21, 2011, 09:42 AM EST

I have no interest or time to refute the claptrap posted here about De Valera. I will just make two points. 1/ Those who attack Dev's relationship with the Catholic Church show utter ignorance of the history of his times. Cumann na nGaedhal, later to join with Irish fascists to become Fine Gael, were 100 times more conservative and obsequious to the Catholic Church than was De Valera. 2/ De Valera's role in the Irish Civil War was quite marginal. The Civil War was instigated by forces that later came to form Cumann na nGaedhal, probably on the prompting of the British. They were certainly armed by them, and relied on thousands of ex-British Army soldiers. Dev had little role in the opposition to these traitors. It is perhaps the proudest boast that I can make about my Irish heritage that my ancestors in both the Dublin Brigade and one of the Cork Brigades stood by their oath to an Irish Republic and with thousands of others loyal to the republic were forced into exile when the reactionaries proved victorious.

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GeorgeDillon | Dec 21, 2011, 09:29 AM EST

This site appears to attract more ignoramuses per inch than even sirpeter's homepage. Perhaps fittingly, an idiotic article about De Valera has been met by idiotic responses. A poster calling himself Scotchtommy tells us that De Valera antagonized American Jews (wouldn't be the last Irish leader to do so) so much that Ireland was denied aid under the Marshall Plan. You're an utter idiot, scotchtommy! Ireland received substantial aid under the Marshall plan. In fact a woman called Bernadette Whelan wrote a full book about the subject a few years back! And no, she didn't write 200 pages about aid Ireland did NOT receive. Why do people post from utter ignorance? It wastes the time of those few of us here who know what we are talking about.

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KingPuk | Dec 21, 2011, 08:48 AM EST

I think you ran out of things to say PR. Dev has done more for Ireland than ppl realize. Kim starved millions to death and is still doing so after decades of isolation & the threat of war. Anybody who knows Irish history, knows that the above article is w&nk.

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IrelandNorth | Dec 21, 2011, 08:26 AM EST

This headline stretches credulity. Neither Kim Il Sung or his son, Kim Jong Ill had the arm of a megalomaniacal Roman Catholic Archibishop up their a[r]ss[e]s, like quasi-theocratic ventriloquists dummies. Even if North Korean state capitalism (masquerading as communism), is uncannily like RC.

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seanomelbourne | Dec 20, 2011, 07:53 PM EST

Billie061 I fail to understand your post, Dev had no jurisdtiction in the north of Ireland and Harry boland was shot in bed(in Skerries by collins assassins)My father was incarcerated in Arbour Hill (1936) and the Curragh(1941) by Dev.He did not have much time for Dev or Collins.RE your last line Sirpeter the victor wins the revisionst war.

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sirpeter | Dec 20, 2011, 06:56 PM EST

What annoys me about this site is that the articles are so shallow and inflammatory.That you can never discuss the detail.Because in Irish history the devil is in the detail.It's like saying because of the failure of the potato a million Irish people died.While that's partly true.We know the failure of the potato did not cause famine.Because the definition of the word famine is the general scarcity of food to which there was none.

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sirpeter | Dec 20, 2011, 06:41 PM EST

@ancavker.I agree he should have excepted the treaty.I also agree the oath was a big obstacle to agreeing to take the treaty.But that was a sign of the times.Even if he was pro-treaty I'd say the die hards would have still went ahead.

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Scotchtommy | Dec 20, 2011, 05:46 PM EST

Hi sirpeter.Dev may have thought it was to us Brits he was giving the finger - and who can blame him- we sure as hell deserved it.But it was the Jewish people whom he was sticking it to.Remember this was after years of Nazi persecution culminating in the recently liberated death camps.The Jewish community worldwide(and especially in the US) went ape at Dev''s behaviour.I've spoken over the years to elderly American, British and European Jews and the kindest thing they call him is "Nazi b-----d".On a practical note it allegedly cost Ireland any Marshall Aid from the US - again allegedly due to the fury of the US Jewish lobby.I respect the man as a great leader but on this time he blew it.

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Scotchtommy | Dec 20, 2011, 05:10 PM EST

Hi Sirpeter- Dev may have thought he was giving the finger to us Brits by offering Ireland's condolences on the death of Hitler.As a Brit I have no problem with that -we surely deserved it BUT the people to whom he was giving the finger was the Jewish (esp American) community .And they went berserk (remember this was just after the death camps were liberated).I've spoken to elderly British,American and European Jews who froth with rage at the mention of his name- "Nazi b------d is the mildest epithet.And on a practical note how much did it cost Ireland in being refused any major Marshall Aid from the US- allegedly because of the US Jewish lobby.I respect the man as a great leader but in this case he really blew it.

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