Black and Tans were not so bad says new book ---savagery in Irish War of Independence on all sides
By: Patrick Roberts | Published Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 7:14 PM | Updated Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 7:14 PM
The Black and Tans were not so bad after all it seems according to a new book.
That will come as disturbing news to millions of Irish Americans including, by his own account, Vice President Joe Biden, who were raised on stories of Black and Tans atrocities in Ireland during the War of Independence.
(The above picture is a still from the movie "The Wind that Shakes the Barley" on this very topic)
The Black and Tans were generally thought of as the scum of the British system, psychopaths released from jails and turned into an evil militia and sent to Ireland.
Not so says a new book by historian David Leeson entitled "The Black and Tans; British Police and Auxiliaries in the Irish War of Independence 1920-21." It is published by Oxford University Press.
The book was reviewed by Eunan O' Halpin in The Irish Times and he says it will open many eyes.
Among the major surprises I found reading his review was that many of the Black and Tans were actually Irish-born and that regular soldiers were far more likely to commit atrocities.
O'Halpin writes; "Leeson’s careful analysis of Black and Tan recruitment disposes of the widely aired charge that these temporary policemen were the sweepings of the British penal system. Rather, they were a miscellany of British and Irish ex-servicemen, almost none of whom had criminal records. "
"He also suggests that pre-First World War soldiers were more likely than younger Black and Tans to commit disciplinary and criminal offenses in Ireland, challenging the assumption that the chronic ill discipline of these temporary policemen was specifically a manifestation of the brutalizing effects of the First World War on impressionable youths."
He also notes that " While the Black and Tans were largely confined to service alongside regular RIC men, waiting for the IRA to attack them, the Auxiliaries were intended as an elite force tasked to take the battle to the IRA."
This they did with a vengeance and it is abundantly clear that they abused that power, even more than the Black and Tans actually did.
In another book about the era "1920-1922 The Outrages" by Pearse Lawlor, published by Mercier Press it is clear that the worse of all groups, including the Black and Tans were the Ulster Special Constabulary.
The book discusses the numerous atrocities they carried out, as indeed did the IRA at the time as Lawlor notes, citing especially the brutal murder of an 80-year-old helpless Protestant clergyman in Cavan.
He covers the pogroms against Catholics in at least three major towns led by off-duty Ulster Special Constabulary, later known as the 'B' specials and they leave even the Black and Tans in the halfpenny place when it comes to murder and mayhem.
Almost all revolutions are born in spilt blood and the Irish fight was no different.
What is interesting is how, as history unfolds,previously hard held facts and truths are questioned and re-examined.
It seems we are at that stage with the Irish War of Independence.
There are no choir boys in war we know.These books just make that fact even clearer.
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.DublinCitizen | Oct 18, 2011, 02:40 PM EDT
Well I'm a member of the Church of Ireland and my wife is a Catholic and we were both brought up with friends of both churches and with a few Jewish friend too.! We have all considered ourselves IRISH. My wife's great great parents were born before the Famine and married during it. She died in 1914 and he died a year later, They left their descendants a legacy of strength and love and no rancour against anyone. My grandfater fought in 1916 and her grandfather fought in World War 1 and was murdered by the IRA in 1920 because he was in the wrong place at the time the family have never found his grave(does this sound familiar?). We just love our country the Irish Republic which despite its present financial difficulties is still a great place to live in. As for the Black and Tans they should be consiged to history where they belong
ancavker | Sep 19, 2011, 12:54 PM EDT
allan: You post is so way over the top. But I will just address three points. There was no ethnic cleansing of Protestants in the south. Irish sports still have a huge following. Rugby does as well, as well it should it is an incredible game. And Cricket, well most Irish people, in fact most people consider it a bore. There is no such thing as British.
sirpeter | Sep 18, 2011, 08:03 PM EDT
allan07.You comments are not been removed.A comment can only be a certain length.By the way saying Protestants were ethically cleansed in the Republic weakened your credibility.If you do further study you will find a good few reasons while the prod population fell.
conchobhar | Sep 17, 2011, 12:21 PM EDT
I haven't read the book yet, so I won't comment directly. I will say, though, that I find the timing of this article noteworthy. Yesterday morning I was breakfasting at a B & B in the Berkshire Mts of Western Massachusetts, and heard a table full of Virginians opining that, "Slavery wasn't so bad. At least they had a home to go to." Need I mention that these people were all white? Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour also recently said that segregation and Jim Crow "weren't so bad," either. Well, they weren't...for him.
allan07 | Sep 13, 2011, 08:22 PM EDT
Why is all my comments being removed by the editors of this site. Come on I am a protestant but we are entitled to tell the truth. Its not Libya so stop playing like nasty regime leaders. What happened to free speech? Gerry Adams can now be heard what about the protestant people? Its good to talk.
allan07 | Sep 13, 2011, 08:17 PM EDT
The protestant people in the Free State after independence were enthically cleansed by the republician movement with the help of the Free state government. Once the protestant percentage was 10% now its 2% in the ROI. 90 years later the ROI is still poor, the state has failed, the economy is debt ridden, the cathloic church is covering up the sexual scandals and child abuse, the ROI owes a fortune to Great Britain in special loans, unemployment is high, cathloics get divorced even though they say its against their beliefs, good catholic women travel to England for their adoptions, more people will be leaving the ROI than coming into the ROI, generations to come will be paying for the silly over spending and borrowing caused by the present and previous governments, foreign sports such as rugby and cricket get more of a following than the so called Irish sports, Eoin Morgan is playing for England in cricket even though hes born in Dublin , the weather pants and everyone will be having a pay cut, taxes will be rising, etc, etc, In short the republic of Ireland is finished if it ever started. The Celtic tiger is dead just like the parrot it is deceased it is no more. Glad i am British and living in Northern Ireland.
allan07 | Sep 13, 2011, 07:59 PM EDT
KevinKehoe i wrote truthful comments also and hours later nothing. I guess if your a protestant your comments are not shown. This site is censored. Gerry Adams can now be heard but if your a protestant in Northern Ireland its never, never and never. After all this site is edited by nationalist and republicians. So what chance of fair play and honest behaviour. Nil. How many employees at Irish Central are from Northern Ireland and protestant. Nil. For those with a short memory Northern Ireland does not beling to the ROI. The article in the ROI constitution which had a claim on Northern Ireland was voted on and the ROI do NOT have any legal claim on Northern Ireland. So thats it forever. Any we in Northern Ireland do not want to be part of the ROI. The ROI is a failed state and financially broke. Skint, up the river without a paddle.
johhnyb | Sep 05, 2011, 11:20 AM EDT
Hi Ancavker, I hadn't noticed any huge number of apologies for killing people on this particular topic! I got the impression rather more that the prods got what they deserved.
seanomelbourne | Sep 02, 2011, 07:15 PM EDT
Well put anckaver There are a few of us who keep honesty and integrity on this site.
ancavker | Sep 01, 2011, 10:23 AM EDT
Protestants were not killed during the war of independence, simply because they were Protestant, they were killed if they collaborated with British forces, and in most instances they were warned not to. people should take a look at what was done to British loyalists at the end of the American revolution. Why is it the Irish seem to have this need to apologize for fighting our war for freedom?
sirpeter | Aug 31, 2011, 10:35 PM EDT
Dano.Don't be disheartened.I will read the book in the chicken coup with Grandma.
sirpeter | Aug 31, 2011, 10:26 PM EDT
KevinKehoe.You're comment was to long or else it was pro british.In order for your comment to definitely appear you have to type first either.Georgy Boy is an idiot or Towngate would sell one of his kids for the Queens knickers.Two kids if they were used.
KevinKehoe | Aug 31, 2011, 06:22 PM EDT
I just spent 30 mins writing a comment, hit comment button 10 mins ago and nothing, why bother
DanOLoingsigh | Aug 31, 2011, 04:05 PM EDT
I suppose it was too much to expect any poster to actually read the book, or even a review of the book, before launching into romantic reminiscences from assorted aged grandparents, not to mention Frank Meehan’s and his mentally challenged relative, or Hugh Walsh’s mother’s dog. Folk memories are sure to be much more accurate, impartial and honest than any carefully researched tome that may question long held beliefs or diminish our self worth. Much the same thought process that believes ‘The Wind that shakes the Barley’ is actually a documentary, rather than the dramatised re imaginings of Mr Ken Loach and Co. And we used be a land of Saints and SCHOLARS?
McNamara31 | Aug 31, 2011, 12:22 PM EDT
seanomelbourne... "Mountmellick" We may have more in common than our politics. I just returned two weeks ago, Mountrath and Ballyfin also....all looks very well...
sirpeter | Aug 31, 2011, 08:32 AM EDT
@PolinDeB lol."de deivils law i tell you the deivils law" ;)
sirpeter | Aug 31, 2011, 08:27 AM EDT
@michaelidaho.That's my whole point.Considering some protestants informed on the IRA and were not INNOCENT and most protestants were quiet loyal to the crown who lived on land that were taken by force.There was remarkable constraint on the side of the Catholics.I'm not saying there wasn't instances where Catholics did wrong to Protestants.But in comparison to the atrocities committed by the Tans it's hardly worth mentioning.In all fairness even a constantly battered wife gets the odd smack in every now and again to use an analogy.It's only worth a sneer when the husband says.Well she hit me too.The atrocities are to one sided.Also there are lots of reasons why the Protestant population fell.But it wasn't that they were made unwelcome or threatened.The Protestants are nice people Protestants and Catholics get on very well in the South.
scottyh | Aug 31, 2011, 06:36 AM EDT
FINGLETON, FITZPATRICK AND THE REST OF THE BANKERS HAVE DONE MORE DAMAGE THAN ANYBODY ELSE TO IRELAND!
slainte39 | Aug 31, 2011, 06:24 AM EDT
"Why such a reduction of Protestants between 1911 and 1926?" The answer is obvious...there were many more Unionists among the Prot. ranks than the R.C.s. Many of these went to others Brit. colonies such as Canada or Australia to live under the "Unionjack", preferring that to living in an independent nation with a completely seavered umbilical cord.
maireadinmelb | Aug 31, 2011, 04:51 AM EDT
My grandfather lived through the war of independence and told us about the black and tans - was this author alive in that time, cause I will take my grandad's word over his!!
JohnJoe4444 | Aug 31, 2011, 04:42 AM EDT
All wars are dirty. Atrocities are carried out by all sides. Local IRA units killed innocent people. Sometimes the killings were of landowners whose property was coveted by the killers. BUT!!! To say the Tans were "not so bad" is ridiculous. When I was a kid I heard first hand from people living at the time of incidents of savagery and brutality. These guys were out of control and lived by no rules. If the book is based on "Official Records" they are unlikely to bear much relation to the real event.
dukmarshal@aol.com | Aug 31, 2011, 01:17 AM EDT
Why is it that a few individuals refer to IRA actions as being against protestants, when in fact the actions were against known sympathizers with the crown and would have or did give information to the brits? The same thing happened during the American Revolution, and they are never referred to as protestants. The English army preformed the same atrocities here in the colonies as they did in Ireland.
DaithiSuibhne | Aug 30, 2011, 10:53 PM EDT
Another revisionist story of the benevolent British government,what a crock of manure. It's a well known fact that the Brits always try to get someone else to do their dirtywork so of course alot of the 'Black and Tans' were Irish born. A vast majority of the RIC were catholic at the time,but regardless of religion they took up allegiance to a foreign power and worked with 'The Tans', which were mostly former British soldiers,and together they did their best to carry out the British agenda. It's sad but true that atrocities were carried out on both sides, this is what happens when one nation occupies another. No matter what 'new' stories come out after the fact,the fact remains the same, the British were a occupying force, in fact they still occupy 6 of our 9 counties in Ulster. Allow me to reiterate one more time " Ireland unfree will never be at peace"
seanomelbourne | Aug 30, 2011, 10:21 PM EDT
My mother was from Mountmellick she never had a problem with her protestant neighbours.
PolinDeB | Aug 30, 2011, 09:15 PM EDT
In fairness, war is war.. but if you want atrocities in the War of Independence it's hard to pass a story my grandmother told to me .. where a priest went to comfort a dying soldier who had been shot by the IRA.. when new soldiers came they tied him to the back of a car and dragged him till he was dead... As for against protestants atrocities.. they probably happened..it was inevitable and inevitable that those who held power no longer wanted to live in this new extremely catholic ireland but Laois where I'm from still has a large Protestant population.. other than the fear of their children marrying their population down...didn't hear that many stories of terrible incidents or felt any rancour between prods and catholic.. half the time as child they had to explain gently that they were protestant and didn't do lent when I tried to deliver them a Trocaire box ;0 The best craic was in the Divorce referendum where we used to tease them that this law was for them.. old george evans used to go mad.. "de deivils law i tell you the deivils law" ;)
cillowen | Aug 30, 2011, 09:14 PM EDT
The Queen's visit and Willy Kate (another) wedding of the century that was so well appreciated by 'er subjects is reason enough to go gaga for occupier's Black and Tan chaps. George, the Wash had to do the dirty to rid his land of tyrant, George III. The Apple and banana comparison of posters doesn't quite fit.
michaelidaho | Aug 30, 2011, 08:21 PM EDT
Sirpeter wrote: "You have evidence of these INNOCENT Protestants do you" Yes, there is plenty of evidence. Why not start with "1920-1922 The Outrages" by Pearse Lawlor which was mentioned in the article. Personally, I think the guy who wrote the revisionist book on the Black and Tans is an idiot. The British government's actions during the War of Independence were just another example of their arrogant, repressive and cruel tactics in dealing with Ireland. However, to argue that no atrocities were committed by the IRA against INNOCENT Protestant civilians, although small relative to Black and Tan outrages, is to ignore history and live in an ignorant fantasy land. You might want to check the 1911 and 1926 census and look at the drastic reduction in the Protestant population in the 26 Counties and ponder why so many left. It might have something to do with many republicans not making them feel very welcome (burning down their houses, murdering a few of them, etc.)
tombegs | Aug 30, 2011, 07:56 PM EDT
Hate to get on twice. But it was a British hisorian who developed the theory that there existed a kinder and gentler version of the Spanish Inquisiton. I would love to provide time transport to these fools and force them to do field reserarch to support their theses.
tombegs | Aug 30, 2011, 07:53 PM EDT
One quick question: Which of the two nations has a history of government supporte brutality? Ireland or England? Call him from the dead and ask Churchill about Gallipoli. Case closed. Oh I almost forgot. Was Ollie Cromwell Irish?
maloney | Aug 30, 2011, 07:44 PM EDT
Substitute the black and tans with the SS and continue.
vincentruane | Aug 30, 2011, 07:26 PM EDT
Why are so many foreigners interested in writing a false history of Ireland. When are the Irish going to start writing their own history books. And as for the Black and Tans they had no right to be in Ireland. It's time for Ireland to be fully free, It's time for Wales to be fully free, I'ts time for Scotland to be fully free, in fact it is time for all these countries to be free from the horrible yolk of foreign oppression.
SCVMal | Aug 30, 2011, 06:35 PM EDT
I refuse to read this piece of crap. It's not historical; it's hysterical in its asinine premise.
seanomelbourne | Aug 30, 2011, 06:34 PM EDT
It beggars belief that some idiot would write a book condoning the excesses of a mercenary occupation force. My father remembered well the harrassment and spite of these murders.To read posts below givng the bast...trsd a leave pass and condeming the army of the first Dail is disgusting.
sirpeter | Aug 30, 2011, 06:16 PM EDT
@JamesDempsey.Don't I know it lol.Notice how certain suspects have not commented? Too many Irish volunteers lining up in this article to knock lumps out of them if they try and defend the Tans.Traitors who think they are to good to be Irish the land of their birth.Aspiring to be English.With little or no loyalty to Ireland.They have always been a curse in this country.
JamesDempsey | Aug 30, 2011, 04:58 PM EDT
@Sirpeter "lay in ambush" lol thats how they beat the black and tans
mayoman1 | Aug 30, 2011, 04:32 PM EDT
Whether it was regulars or Tans is of little consolation to the families of those who were murdered.
greensod | Aug 30, 2011, 04:23 PM EDT
Experts they are a-plenty.The black and tans were sent to Ireland for one purpose.Kill the Irish and steal their property and land.
irish18 | Aug 30, 2011, 04:21 PM EDT
I can tell you stories about the B&T's told directly to me by my gr mother and father who lived through it. my gr mother did not have to hide the chidlren when the IRA walked down the street. I wouldn't read this book the lies would upset me too much. I'd like to know what his research was.
slainte39 | Aug 30, 2011, 02:40 PM EDT
Some of Ireland's greatest heroes, patriots,literati, etc. were prods...so I'm not buying in on this nonsense that Republicans zeroed in on the "prods" for just being prods.
ballyhip | Aug 30, 2011, 02:31 PM EDT
It's an oversimplification to divide the conflict into Prods versus Old IRA. My grandmother was Church of Ireland and my grandfather was Lord Sligo's riverkeeper yet the family supported independence. It was a very complicated time followed by an even worse time when the Civil War began.
carrickcourt | Aug 30, 2011, 02:27 PM EDT
The comments concerning this new look at the Black and Tans reflect the experience of people who lived through the time of Ireland's War of Independence as passed on to their descendants. As is said, those who write history are the ones who won the battles not the ones who lost the battles.
slainte39 | Aug 30, 2011, 02:20 PM EDT
Satan worshipers will remain satan worshipers. Don't bother with them.
Sparklet | Aug 30, 2011, 01:41 PM EDT
Jeez, what next. Hitler was misunderstood? Saddam Hussein was good to his mother? What difference does it make if there was violence on both sides? Two wrongs don't make a right, and the B&Ts shouldn't have been there in the first place.
sirpeter | Aug 30, 2011, 01:16 PM EDT
johhnyb.You're trying to put words in my mouth now.The Protestant community got on very well with their neighbours in West Cork.They did business together and respected eachother.If the Protestants in West Cork kept their nose clean and didn't inform or spy.They had nothing to fear.Another thing all business and property was left in the hands of Protestants after independence even though that same land and property was taken by force from the Irish Catholics.We are paying rent for some Irish government buildings still to some Brits.Either put up a link to you're accusations of the "West Cork massacres" or shut up.
johhnyb | Aug 30, 2011, 12:32 PM EDT
Quite right Sirpeter. No doubt the prods deserved all they got. If they were prods they were hardly innocent. (Oh, don't mention the West Cork massacres.)
sirpeter | Aug 30, 2011, 12:24 PM EDT
@michaelidaho.You use the word PLENTY of innocent civilians murdered, harassed and burned out of their homes by republican forces simply because they were Protestant.You have evidence of these INNOCENT Protestants do you? Or is it some sort of vague evidence? Or the odd few Protestants who got a bit of a kicking by a few local bully boys.Protestant houses were burned by the IRA as reprisals for Catholic homes been burned.Protestants complained to the British and that stopped the Black and Tan house burning.But those who were burned they were carefully selected.They were either known informers or very loyal to the crown.Either way if you have evidence of anything substantial I'd like to see it.
mamaginnty | Aug 30, 2011, 11:58 AM EDT
Like Slainte9 my grandparents and my mother who was 8 yrs old at the time were liars then in Leeson's nice new book, that the british will be running out to buy. Where did he get all the info, not from the irish who lived through it, most of those poor people are dead, my mother never told me lies nor my gr.dad or gr.mother. Yes we had our traitors, but the B&Ts were complete b.....ds, my gr.parents house burned to the ground. Set alight while they were in it, gr.dad carried the scars, my mother remembered being dragged by the hair into the yard and swung like a rag doll, a child of 8-9 years old and called a fenian bastard, my mother was mentally scarred by those words for the rest of her life too, she passed away just a few years ago. I mentioned things like this before on Ir.Central and was actually told to stop playing on the sympathy thing by some people here, people who will never admit that this happened, just like they deny the irish holocaust, the thousands upon thousands who were starved to death by the british, a nightmare the irish still carry because it was our relations, our families. Leeson's book is mostly a fairy tale they would like to believe.
michaelidaho | Aug 30, 2011, 11:43 AM EDT
CitizenWhy, As you said, there may have been flying columns and plenty of IRA men that did not kill civilians and burn Protestant homes. However, you are living in a fantasy land if you think the British forces were the only ones who committed atrocities during the Irish War of Independence. There were plenty of innocent civilians murdered, harassed and burned out of their homes by republican forces simply because they were Protestant. It was probably not to the same degree as the outrages committed by British forces. Nevertheless, it is quite clear that many Protestants did not feel safe in Ireland during this era and left Ireland for good. The author of this article was right on when he said, “There are no choir boys in war.”
SeamusMor | Aug 30, 2011, 11:37 AM EDT
The defender of the Black and Tans attempts to debunk characterizations of where they came from, while utterly ignoring what they did. Ask Frank Meehan what they did to his mentally challenged relative, or hear what Hugh Walsh's mother told him about the British "officer" who burned her dogs eyes out with a cigarette for barking at him. Who's fooling whom? My Dad went to Notre Dame with "Sony Capone" who assured him that all the things being said about his gangster father were not true. It sounds like this writer is like those who deny the holocost.
slainte9 | Aug 30, 2011, 11:04 AM EDT
In a book published by Oxford Press a Canadian [special relationship with the Ulster British] historian discovers the Black and Tans weren't so bad (and that my grandmother who lived in those times is a liar). What a surprise. This reminds me of the german woman I knew who remembers the SS soldiers she worked with as strong and brave and, oh, so very handsome.
Fightin69th | Aug 30, 2011, 10:58 AM EDT
My Grandmother(97) tells me of how the B&T's shot 2 lads in the back when they ran from them. How her mother hid a young fella on the run in her bed. (Put a bonnet & night dress on him) B&T's came into the bed room, only for her yelling at them to leave her & "the sick child" alone, the whole family would of been killed. Not sure of who the lad was, but he was high in the ranks of the IRA. Before he left he carved his initals on teh kitchen table and years later came back to thank them for what they did.
sirpeter | Aug 30, 2011, 10:57 AM EDT
@johhnyb.The killing of Protestant's as revenge in West Cork is a discussion for another day.I'll gladly discuss that point anytime.But this is about the Black and Tans.Be careful with the term massacres.Because I wouldn't apply that term to even the Tans.Burning,looting,murder and torture applies to the Black and Tans.I like to apply the term massacres to Cromwell.It fits better.See!! Guess I'm still in form.
OBPiper | Aug 30, 2011, 10:51 AM EDT
?!? I just spent time with my girlfriend's family in the greater Roscommon Town area. There is read an historical account of the Black and Tans having burned out the townfolk (even attempting to burn out a Protestant Minister)--in retaliation for the killing of some British general--reminiscent of the redcoat clearances in the movie "Rob Roy". Perhaps those locals had it all wrong?!? Why always focus on Northern Ireland?
JimmieM | Aug 30, 2011, 10:48 AM EDT
Perhaps it would be useful to remember that the black and tans were a well armed well organized force sent by a foreign country to deny a poorly armed unorganized people the Freedom of their Own Land...doesn't this alter the perception somewhat?
maryemoore | Aug 30, 2011, 10:36 AM EDT
You say potato I say potahto. The reality is these men under the general term Black and Tans were the Brown shirts of their time. Wish my late grandmother was around to hear this as they came and took my father and uncle away from their farm in Kerry. She was certain they would be killed. My father, who did not hate the British,BTW, thought for sure that he, at 16, and his brother, at 14, were going to be killed that day. They were put in a ditch and thought for sure that was it. Luckily, they just were told to dig. And eventually were sent on their way. But the fear was no less nor the memories.
bazzarooney | Aug 30, 2011, 10:30 AM EDT
Now what fine fellows they all were, maybe they should put a statue of a black & tan up in every village and town that was burned and where people were murdered.
tommymccarthy | Aug 30, 2011, 10:30 AM EDT
i THINK YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THE MURDERING MOB WERE BROUGHT FROM JAILS FROM AROUND BRITAIN SPRINGFIELD9
Springfield9 | Aug 30, 2011, 10:18 AM EDT
The "Tans" were unemployed WW I veterans NOT criminals and the insane. The Auxilliaries were (originaally) unemployed British Officer Veterans. I am a combat veteran and war is the very definition of inhumanity. "Free State" soldiers landed at Sneem, Co. Kerry and were even more brutal than the Tans (headquartered in Kenmare). I served 2 tours in Viet Nam and can't recall saying "may I?" before pulling the trigger.
CitizenWhy | Aug 30, 2011, 10:00 AM EDT
In Irish telling the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries are mixed together. The Auxiliaries, for instance, may have burned my mother's house down three times but most of the relatives use the term Black and Tans in speaking of those events. And the only reason everyone survived is that they had well rehearsed escape routs and nearby places where they could hide (including English homes). Burning the house down three times was understandable, from the British point of view, given the family's involvement in the War of Independence. My mother, in a separate incident, was also threatened by rape until rescued by a British Army officer married to a cousin. In many places the IRA was careful not to harm English women or children or non-combatants and confined their attacks to police and military. I know my father's flying squad kept to those rules. Please do not forget that. The irregular British forces were not so careful. ... My parents very much liked their English neighbors, who favored independence (Redmondites).
catherineu | Aug 30, 2011, 09:50 AM EDT
So the Black & Tan's were not so bad. Explain THAT to my family after one of my uncles was executed point-blank on their farm. The brits are no different than the nazis at times.
mcdolan | Aug 30, 2011, 09:46 AM EDT
Well all I can say is the woman who was to become my grandmother, her parents, her sister, and 6 brothers were burned out of their home on Slate Street in Belfast by the Black & Tans as were several other families in the early 20s, causing all but the boys to depart for the USA.
IrishPete | Aug 30, 2011, 09:36 AM EDT
Just because a percentage - perhaps even a significant percentage - of those enlisted as Black and Tans were soldiers and native Irish who had NOT experienced the horrors of combat in France, that doesn't mean they weren't selected for their willingness to visit horrors on their fellow countrymen and women.
johhnyb | Aug 30, 2011, 09:28 AM EDT
You're in fine form Sirpeter! Just don't mention the West Cork massacres. My goodness, someone might actually believe that there were violent sectarian republicans!
stephendoyle | Aug 30, 2011, 09:19 AM EDT
LOL, the Black and Tans were not so bad. Yeah right, and Idi Amin was Santa Clause. What psychotic planet does the author of this story come from? Certianly not Earth...........
CanadianPat | Aug 30, 2011, 09:17 AM EDT
Revisionish-history is when long after anyone is alive who can contest you rewrite history taking the opposite vue and sell it as fact so that all can be forgiven and we all can be friends.Faceing the truth and dealing with it makes true friends, frendship baced on lies can not last!While it is true to state that not all on one side or the other were saints or sinners ,it would be a bitter lie to sugest the black and tans were anything other than muderous armed tugs of the British Empire!!!
sirpeter | Aug 30, 2011, 09:09 AM EDT
Sorry James I repeated part of what you said.I didn't see your post.I was having another go.Never refreshed the page.;))Wait for them James!!Lay in ambush.They will surely enter this article.Then give em hell!!
sirpeter | Aug 30, 2011, 09:04 AM EDT
Patrick Roberts why do you find it surprising that many of the Black and Tans were Irish-born?If that's a surprise, you have very little understanding of the many different types of Irish people and where these Irish-Born place their loyalty.Plenty Irish born whose loyalty has always been to England would happily cut their Irish neighbours throat to keep ties with England.We have Irish born people who on this forum,despise using words most Irish culture and are in conflict with the Irish blood and Irish culture within them.They would support the Black and Tans with a heart and a half.Not pointing any fingers so I'll use his name.hahaha.~TOOOOOWNGAAAAATE!!!
JamesDempsey | Aug 30, 2011, 08:51 AM EDT
They just laid seige to Tralee for a few days starving the population and burnt the centres of towns like cork and balbriggan to name a few. Randomly shot people as they drove by and carried out revenge executions on the general population. Not a bad bunch really ? And also just to comment on the two points made above that many were Irish born and also that many of the black and tans were not exposed to the horrors of WW1 (being the reason for their brutality). Firstly the Irish war of independence was largely IRA men killing Irish born catholic RIC men so the fact that some black and tans were Irish born ex service men (of which there were thousands involved in ww1) comes as no suprise. And secondly the real horror of the actions of the black and tans was that it was ordered or sanction by those at the very top of the British establishment. As sirpeter points out below the black and tans used the same tactics as the SS revenge executions for guerilla attacks and reprisals against entire communities.
sirpeter | Aug 30, 2011, 08:30 AM EDT
God Almighty!!Why do the Irish people and those of Irish decent who suffered at the hands of the British have to put up with this SH*T.Like the Waffen-SS,the Black and Tans are a broad term used to describe a special military force to carry out special missions.Both were made up of different regiments.Generally the Waffen-SS was not directly involved in the Holocaust.BUT!!BUT!!BUT!!The Allgemeine SS was responsible for the death camps.They were never the less part of the Waffen-SS.JUST the same as the Essex Regiment under the leadership of Major Arthur Ernest Percival "Known to the Cork people as the "Essex Torture Squad"were PART of the Black and Tans.They had many Torture Squads all around the country.ALL PART OF THE BLACK AND TANS.