192 Comments

• IrelandNorth | Jul 16, 2012, 08:05 AM EDT

  The original plantation of Ulster (and Munster!) were extremely unpleasant affairs. Dispossession, forcible evictions en masse of Gaelic natives. Land grants given to English and Scottish settlers. 7,000 people were slaughtered in one day at the Battle of Aughrim in Galway in 1691. Celebrating such ethnic cleansings is hardly conducive to peace and reconciliation. Why not celebrate the more positive aspects of protestantism. Alas, I did intuit a dumbing down of the Lambeg this time round. One gets a distinct impression reason is filtering through.

• IrelandNorth | Jul 16, 2012, 08:05 AM EDT

  The original plantation of Ulster (and Munster!) were extremely unpleasant affairs. Dispossession, forcible evictions en masse of Gaelic natives. Land grants given to English and Scottish settlers. 7,000 people were slaughtered in one day at the Battle of Aughrim in Galway in 1691. Celebrating such ethnic cleansings is hardly conducive to peace and reconciliation. Why not celebrate the more positive aspects of protestantism. Alas, I did intuit a dumbing down of the Lambeg this time round. One gets a distinct impression reason is filtering through.

• seanomelb | Jul 16, 2012, 12:38 AM EDT

  Sirpeter the more things change the more they stay the same. Expecting common sense from that lot is futile.

• seanomelb | Jul 14, 2012, 07:25 PM EDT

  post gone again!!!!!!!

• sirpeter | Jul 14, 2012, 10:00 AM EDT

  A loyalist band has been filmed stopping to play loyalist tunes outside a Catholic church in north Belfast.At the end of one of the videos, the person recording it is confronted and threatened by members of another band.At one point the band was playing the music of "the famine song", an anti-Catholic song which originated in Glasgow.A man who filmed one of the videos - and who did not want to be named - said it happened shortly after the main Belfast Orange Order parade left Carlisle Circus.He said they played for 15 to 20 minutes and at one point were dancing outside it while drums were being played."The actions of the band outside St Patrick's Church was deeply provocative," he said.He said the words of the famine song were "deeply offensive and verging on racism".Community worker Frank Dempsey described it as "totally provocative". "Every year, up around Carrickhill and St Patrick's Chapel, we're subject to the same thing," he said.

• sirpeter | Jul 13, 2012, 08:42 PM EDT

  Seano.He hasn't scored even one point.If he did I would tell him.This guy is looking for me to produce a written policy/confession from a bunch of Orange Order bigots that they are anti-catholic.I said well lets see can I separate the Orange Order from other bigot organizations.Maybe they weren't as smart at hiding their bigotry and apartheid.Anything to separate the OO.I found the KKK and Stormfront are NOT anti-negro or anti-Semitic.LOLOL.There only policy is preserving the white race.lolol.Your going to find this part amusing.On Stormfront UK some Irish racist said Ireland should rule England because we are more white and have less Jews and blacks.They all agreed Ireland was more pure and that was OK by them.They sang "Rule Hibernia"nearlylol.Ireland was the great white hope.lol Should I send Georgie Boy over to shatter their dreams? lol.He would be banned on his first post.The delusion needs to be preserved you see.

• seanomelb | Jul 13, 2012, 07:18 PM EDT

  Realist is not interested in facts only in diminishing anything Irish,he's a cretin. Point scoring and not debate is his game. He's probably related to georgy boy.

• sirpeter | Jul 13, 2012, 03:00 PM EDT

  UnRealist.LOL.. All your questions have been answered.Didn't you read them?Do I need to change the font colour to orange?You're the only person here who can't read my answers to your questions.Everybody else can.I guess you can't read their answers either.I suppose we were not engaging properly with ya.lol

• Realist | Jul 13, 2012, 02:08 PM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol...."damage to the Orange Order"? My friend you haven't answered a single question let alone the original point. I must be well into double figures now. Why are you so afraid to engage properly on this?

• sirpeter | Jul 13, 2012, 01:13 PM EDT

  UnRealist.LOL.Of course it's not getting to me.You do more damage to the Orange Order than I ever could.lol.I think my name for you is better than your own if you think he used violence first with those lunatics.lololol.What would I do without your scribblings lolol.On that You Tube video "Catholic Threatened as he watches an Orange Order Parade, New Lodge Area, 12th July 2012" Did you see how confused the child marchers were going around in circles outside the Catholic Church? They didn't understand but they will lol.Also the irony of Scots plantation settlers tooting their rendition of Sloop John B ""the famine is over why don't ye go home"lolollol

• Realist | Jul 13, 2012, 12:33 PM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol....this is really getting to you, isn't it? How can you condone or justify something with questions? For instance, how do you know the 'cameraman' did not "use physical violence first"? Do you know what went on before the footage was taken? By the way, should I assume that you have given up on the original point of trying to prove that the OO is an anti-Catholic organization? Are we on to child welfare now? Lol.

• sirpeter | Jul 13, 2012, 11:25 AM EDT

  Unrealist.LOL It's so easy to lead you by your big orange nose.I love leading you in the direction I want to prove a point.Who knows what the guy was wearing.But that's not the point I wanted to make again and again and again lololol.Little kids wouldn't understand the meaning of any political symbols.Yet!! These Orange Order parents/thugs during a day that is meant to be fun for their kids are willing to attack a man in front of them with a club and expose their innocent kids to violence.That's the main point I'm making on that video.And also the fact the man did not use physical violence first.By your reasoning symbols or anything provocative justifies a violent attack.If this is true then you can't justify any Orange Order parades through any Catholic areas anywhere in Ireland whose banners and symbols are also provocative. ;));));))You just condoned the use of physical violence by way of argument and also against the use of provocative banners and symbols.lolololol.Well done Brit.I couldn't have said it better.

• bunkerhill | Jul 13, 2012, 10:43 AM EDT

  Realist - We have been to Boston to visit my husband's ancestor's commenoration and know so much more about the battle than you do. The Americans were sadly outnumbered but were tremendous marksmen having been shooting small game from early childhood. The British won the battle but lost the war if you remember. They also had trouble holding on to their soldiers who continually tried to dessert. The greatest marksman in the REvolutionary was a young man from Pennsylvania named Timothy Murphy (so sorry about that) who picked off a British general in New York State. The British troops became demoralized by the loss of their leader and scattered. That has always been a major difference between British and American armies. The British are headless with a leader while the next American steps up if a leader is lost. Please quote one instance when I said we disliked Scots. I repeatedly said we love them and have them in our family. We love Scots but not the bigoted OO. We love Germans but not the Nazis. By the way I saw a blurb on TV this morning that the OO parade descended into violence. Have to go and look it up.

• Realist | Jul 13, 2012, 10:06 AM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol....is this supposed to 'prove' that the OO, as an organization, is anti-Catholic? Well, I have looked at the YouTube video referenced. Like the celebration after the "Battle of the Diamond", I have similar questions. Firstly, how do you know the person holding the camera is a Catholic? How do you know those approaching him know he is a Catholic? How do you know they approached him because of his religion? Are these bandsmen even members of the OO? An alternative take on this....Perhaps the 'cameraman' was wearing a provocative (pro-IRA for example) t-shirt in the hope of soliciting this type of response to then run off and up-load it on YouTube making clear his religion in the clip's title? Last question....was it you? Lol.

• sirpeter | Jul 13, 2012, 08:39 AM EDT

  citizen69. Your last comment is where you express your true feeling about the Orange Order.Quote"The less confrontation there is, the less controversy is caused, the less tension exists and everybody can get on with their lives".Unquote. Take a look at the You Tube video here.~~"Catholic Threatened as he watches an Orange Order Parade, New Lodge Area, 12th July 2012"~~ I guess manhandled with clubs is still just called a threat in NI even by catholics.Anyone who looks at this video can see this is apartheid at work.In front of kids they openly attacked a guy with a club just for filming the parade.There was so little people there. Their kids have got to have seen this.I would never expose my children to this brutality.This behavior is condoned by the Orange Order.Irish children must tolerate and see this? One child is too many.It would be child abuse and shocking for them to see it.

• IrelandNorth | Jul 13, 2012, 07:54 AM EDT

  Antithetical Christian orthodoxy but a marked improvement on the original of the species. A theology of hatred is unchristian. Celebrating dominance and supremacy is hardly civilly libertarian. Saint Patrick brough Constantianity but nor Christianity. Orangeism is seen as extreme British nationalism by their more progressive "mainlanders" (sic), with which the neo-Nazi British National Front (BNF) might all too closely identify. Let us all celebrate heterodoxy.

• sirpeter | Jul 13, 2012, 06:53 AM EDT

  Unrealist.You Tube~~Catholic Threatened as he watches an Orange Order Parade, New Lodge Area, 12th July 2012~~~~Can you explain this?

• Realist | Jul 13, 2012, 03:58 AM EDT

  bunkerhill: From memory and the few times I have visited Boston, the "Battle of Bunker Hill" was actually fought on Breed's Hill and was won by the British. By the way, what have you got against the Scots?

• Realist | Jul 13, 2012, 03:53 AM EDT

  seanomelb: Lol....the Republic of Ireland has a navy? Their navy reserve has enough people to form a "guard of honour"? You surprise me. Firstly, not "some" Irish government ministers elected to stand outside the church service for Hyde, all but one did. It seems that, even in death, the fact that he was a Protestant mattered more than him being a fellow Irishman. As for the case of Ronan Kerr's funeral....an internal complaint was raised by a single Orange lodge about members' attendance, however this was overruled by the relevant internal committee of the organization. The OO did not "vilify" anyone for attendance of this service and unlike the Irish government ministers at Hyde's funeral, the OO members went in. Also, why Scots-Irish 'not ok' and Irish-American 'ok'? I would think both or neither.

• merefalow | Jul 12, 2012, 08:20 PM EDT

  COMPUTER SAYS,NON,NO,NOT FECKING EVER.

• seanomelb | Jul 12, 2012, 06:27 PM EDT

  Realist as a serving member of An Slua muire(Irish naval reserve)a choice was given as to whether you wished to be part of a guard of honour at a religious service.So protestants who did not wish to enter another denominational service could opt out and visa versa.The Irish government ministers did attend the funeral of Dr.Hyde some elected to stand outside the church for the service.I will also remind you of the N.I. protestants who were vilified by the OO for attending the service of a catholic police officer. How hilarious is that BTW Scots Irish my foot.

• Realist | Jul 12, 2012, 05:40 PM EDT

  bunkerhill: Yes, indeed, Douglas Hyde, a Protestant, "was elected the first President of the new Republic by an overwhelmingly catholic population". Too bad that because he was a Protestant his funeral service was overwhelmingly unattended by all but one of his Catholic cabinet colleagues. I also find it hilarious that you question the Scots-Irish dual identity on an overtly Irish-American website....lol.

• Realist | Jul 12, 2012, 05:13 PM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol....my friend, you have still not proven that the OO, as an organization, is anti-Catholic. I have already dealt with the rather weak and predictable 'points' you raised. To be honest, it wasn't a very difficult task. For instance, can you produce a reliable contempory source that claims (regarding the "Battle of the Diamond") that the victors killed or celebrated the deaths of those killed because they were Catholics? After all, that is your assertion, is it not? The OO is hardly a secret society....there were thousands of them walking the streets of Northern Ireland today. I don't remember seeing any of them wearing masks or advocating the extermination of any religious, ethnic, or racial group....do you? Also, and a little food for thought for you, why would the Republic of Ireland, an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic country, dedicate a full third of their national flag to the colour of an allegedly anti-Catholic organisation? To paraphrase the movie "Training Day"....it's not what you want, it's what you can prove. Are you getting this yet?

• cavan61 | Jul 12, 2012, 12:38 PM EDT

  It would be a great gesture to let the Orange march in Dublin. I'm a committed Catholic, and an important tenet of Christianity is to love thy neighbor. It would be a welcome sign of tolerance to Protestant Irish, many of whom are ashamed of these Orange marchers.

• ancavker | Jul 12, 2012, 11:18 AM EDT

  sean: The Postman in my Father's home place near the border was still the Postman after independence, and he was a local Protestant.

• sirpeter | Jul 11, 2012, 10:01 PM EDT

  The Parades Commission ruled they must pass a flashpoint Catholic area at Ardoyne by 16:00 BST.Mr Gibson refused to say whether members would abide by the Parades Commission ruling.Northern Ireland's First Minister Peter Robinson tweeted: "Good to see Orange Order giving responsible leadership to maintain peaceful outcome in spite of outrageous Parades Commission ruling."Police have said they will "robustly uphold" the Parades Commission decision banning Orangemen from walking past shops in the nationalist area of north Belfast after the deadline passes.Assistant Chief Constable Will Kerr said there would be no leeway."We will uphold the Parades Commission determination and its timings," he said.Thousands of officers are on standby to police the parade in Ardoyne, that has preceded serious rioting in recent years.Last year, 16 police officers were injured during sustained disturbances the area.The overall policing bill for the marching season in 2011 was £5.7m. There were 160 arrests.~~Hello! Hello! We are the Billy Boys Hello! Hello! You'll know us by our noise We're up to our necks in Fenian blood Surrender or you'll die.~~~Wonderful Culture lol

• seanomelb | Jul 11, 2012, 07:32 PM EDT

  citizen69 amnesty was a two way street in 1921. Tell me my fine friend why were non political ordinary working nationalists murdered by your orange pals after 1921 and in particular those who worked in the shipyards and distilleries. You should write to Dano he has a few pair of orange tinted glasses to spare. You show me where protestant workers were denied jobs in the 26 counties or thrown off scaffolding. And their's no maybes about it.

• bunkerhill | Jul 11, 2012, 03:11 PM EDT

  Hi folks. This will probably be our last post as Bunkerhill is not well. I am his wife. However in reading many of the posts about protestant travails in the Republic of Ireland during their struggle for independence, can anyone tell me how it happened that a protestant, Douglas Hyde, was elected the first President of the new Republic by an overwhelmingly catholic population. Can anyone explain Robert Emmet, an extraordinary protestant Irish patriot, along with so many like him. As for Citizen 69, our sign on bunkerhill commemorates the Revolutionary Battle of Bunker Hill in which my husband's family participated. Indeed he has an ancestor commemorated there. We do know our American History while you do not. The now state of Maryland was actually carved out for the Irish Catholics by the crown before the revolution. Get it? Mary Land. The Irish in Virginia were also Irish Catholics. Once again we will say both of us have Scots in our family, many of whom are catholic, and they are the most loving people. We also have Scots presbyterians and again they are loving people. So the OO stand out as being unique in their bigotry and vitriol. There is a great book called "The Scots-Irish" written by a Southern US author who once again outlines the history of the expelled South West Scots. It is not a pretty history. His name escapes me but you can probably find it under the title. Interesting that the US govt decided to do away with the "Scots-Irish" designation. Choose one or the other. If you want to be a Scot, go there, if they will let you back in.

• sirpeter | Jul 11, 2012, 02:00 PM EDT

  citizen69.So you missed all my witty comments on IC over the last year? That's a pity.Though I have to admit IC is a tough audience.Redbranch made a very funny comment relating to Lennox the dog been killed.He said the dog should be buried in Miltown cemetery in a Repuppyican plot with full honors.lololol.~That gave me a good laugh.But not one person laughed at his sense of humour over on that article.Imagine how dull a night out with them would be. ;))

• sirpeter | Jul 11, 2012, 01:39 PM EDT

  Unrealist..LOL.The bigot pin is well and truly stuck on the Orange donkey.So again I say you want actual written policy by the OO stating that they are anti-catholic? lololol.The Ku Klux Klan don't have a written policy that they are anti-Negro ect.Stormfront don't have a written policy that they are anti-Jew ect.So I take it if I can't provide the written policies of these organizations they are harmless? So in your mind WORDS speak louder than actions?~~~Grand Master of the OO and the Grand Wizard of the KKK to a Human Rights Judge!! You're Honor..It is purely circumstantial that all these Catholic house burnings and nig*er lynchings happened during our festivities in the past. It's not our policy your honor~See!! Have a look?? We only want to preserve our Protestant White Western Culture and NI Protestant Culture.~~You believe us don't you your honor???.NO!!!!Nobody does!!~FU*K!! What part of our policies don't you believe???~~ lolololol.So just because these insidious organizations don't put their bigotry in writing they are innocent? Answer that question first??.We can discuss any detail then about the Diamond massacre in which 30 Catholics managed to get themselves killed and not one Protestant.The worse case of mass suicide before Bloody Sunday.lolol

• citizen69 | Jul 11, 2012, 01:30 PM EDT

  @sirpeter: Well at least you have a sense of humour. I hadn't credited you with that before. In regards to the marching tomorrow, i really wouldn't give two hoots if only one person paraded. I'm really not a big fan of the Order or marching bands. Even though i encounter plenty of parades where i live i only really go out to spectate on the odd one every other year or so on the actual 12th July celebrations, even then i would go to a smaller gathering out in the country that would have more pipe bands and such. The less confrontation there is, the less controversy is caused, the less tension exists and everybody can get on with their lives.

• sirpeter | Jul 11, 2012, 01:10 PM EDT

  citizen69.lololol.This is still a red hot article on IC's most commented list.I'd say there are millions upon millions following this debate.lololol.IC is very popular.At this stage of the debate I'd say the numbers marching will be well down tomorrow.lololol

• Realist | Jul 11, 2012, 11:34 AM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol....you keep trying to pin the tail to the donkey don't you? You have claimed that the OO, as an organization, is anti-Catholic. I have asked you to produce evidence to substantiate this. Instead you point to Catholic deaths as a result of a small localized battle, from the late 18th Century, in which the Loyalist side won - the encounter having been initiated by the opposing side. The Orange Order was founded afterwards. Again, I say, so what? There are no reliable contempory sources that claim the victors killed or celebrated the deaths of those killed because they were Catholics. It was a Nationalist vs. Loyalist engagement from the period of the 1798 rebellion. Many of the Nationalist (United Irishmen) were Presbyterians and Protestants and significant numbers of government troops were Catholic (e.g. at the Battle of Vinegar Hill). Then you produce a statement that was not made on behalf of the OO any more than the previous Free State declarations were that it was reacting to. Therefore, I ask again, would you please produce one item from their own website that is anti-Catholic?

• citizen69 | Jul 11, 2012, 11:04 AM EDT

  @sirpeter: "the thousands upon thousands of people who are going back over my comments at this very moment"... Hehehee!! Talk about self delusional! After 159 comments I suspect there are but a handful of people still reading the posts on this article apart from the posters themselves. You may have slightly overestimated your own importance there but ok, I'll let the legions of Sirpeter-ites trawl through your thousands of posts (as we speak)and produce the evidence (or lack of) themselves! I sit back and await the replies of the thousands upon thousands of your loyal fans. ;)

• sirpeter | Jul 11, 2012, 10:02 AM EDT

  @citizen69.I never say that.Your lies will get you nowhere.They only weaken your argument more and more to the thousands upon thousands of people who are going back over my comments at this very moment exposing you for the liar you are.lololol.I said before if you are going to put words in my mouth you are going to have to quote me.Show me where I used the words "maybe" & "suspected" to justify the murder of Irishmen??

• sirpeter | Jul 11, 2012, 09:06 AM EDT

  Unrealist.So you want actual written policy by the OO stating that they are anti-catholic? lololol.The Ku Klux Klan don't have a written policy that they are anti-Negro ect.Stormfront don't have a written policy that they are anti-Jew ect.So I take it if I can't provide the written policies of these organizations they are harmless? So in your mind WORDS speak louder than actions?~~~Grand Master of the OO and the Grand Wizard of the KKK to a Human Rights Judge!! You're Honor..It is purely circumstantial that all these Catholic house burnings and nig*er lynchings happened during our festivities in the past. It's not our policy your honor~See!! Have a look?? We only want to preserve our Protestant White Western Culture and NI Protestant Culture.~~You believe us don't you your honor???.NO!!!!Nobody does!!~FU*K!! What part of our policies don't you believe???~~ lolololol

• citizen69 | Jul 11, 2012, 04:32 AM EDT

  @Seanmelb: lol!... Gotta love the words you and sirpeter use to justify the murders of Irishmen; "maybe" & "suspected" informers. So much for a fair trail & human rights but then 'maybe' & 'suspected' was all the justification the IRA ever needed throughout its existence. Besides, you miss a very important fact... Since the signing of Anglo-Irish Treaty in December 1921 there was an amnesty granted to all those that may have been on the side of the British. I suppose that counted for nothing too. Hmmm, here i am standing up against murder of Irish citizens and yet again, as you always do, you accuse me of being anti-Irish. How many times Aussie must i tell you that the word Irish does not equate to Murderer?

• Realist | Jul 11, 2012, 04:10 AM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol....my friend you haven't provided any proof....I'm not sure you understand the concept. What you have 'cut and pasted' would be dismissed immediately as either circumstantial in the case of the casualties form the Battle of the Diamond or irrelevant in the case of the Craig quotation. Unless you can produce evidence that the OO, as an organization, advocates explicit anti-Catholic policies then we will have to presume otherwise. Therefore I will ask again, would you please produce one item from their own website that is anti-Catholic?

• seanomelb | Jul 10, 2012, 07:12 PM EDT

  citizen69 some protestants certainly suffered during the war of independence.Maybe they were the same protestants and some loyalist catholics who entertained British and black and tan officers and named people in their districts whom they believed to be Republican and republican sympathisers.Give me a break you bleeding heart anti Irish wimp.

• sirpeter | Jul 10, 2012, 06:15 PM EDT

  Unrealist.lol.I think I have proved beyond reasonable doubt that the Orange Order is anti-Catholic.As Gearoid4 stated it's an insidious organization.That's a good word to describe the Orange Order.Proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

• Gearoid4 | Jul 10, 2012, 04:56 PM EDT

  I see that certain defenders of the orange order are trying to rehabilitate this insidious organization despite it's coat-trailing legacy of religious bigotry, communal violence,death and destruction, over the course of it's existence for some 200 years or more. British government instigated reports into such events in the 19th century have resonances of recent disturbances which have followed orange parades. But still the leaders of this organization deign to lecture the elected members of parliament in the Republic, regarding human rights and religious freedoms. This institution really has to make up it's mind in relation to it's reason for existing i.e is it a political organization with religious overtones or a religious body which has overt political links? Either way, it has seriously compromised itself and must divest itself of it's anti-Catholic ethos, before it's leaders can claim any moral ground to lecture others on religious or socio-political grounds.

• Realist | Jul 10, 2012, 03:49 PM EDT

  sirpeter: Then you bring Sir James Craig into it for some reason. Perhaps you ran out of things to cut and paste or perhaps you wished to add some context? Well, let's have the full context then. Firstly, his actual words from April 1934 were, "In the south, they boasted of a Catholic state. They still boast of southern Ireland being a Catholic state. All I boast of is that we are a Protestant parliament and a Protestant state.'' This was in response to two earlier declarations made by Free State politicians. At a Dublin election meeting in February 1932, Prime Minister Eamon De Valera said: “The majority of the people of Ireland are Catholic and we believe in Catholic principles. 'And as the majority are Catholics,it is right and natural that the principles to be applied by us will be principles consistent with Catholicity.'' The in October 1933, in Geneva, Deputy Prime Minister Sean O'Kelly declared that ''the Free State Government was inspired in its every administrative action by Catholic principles and doctrine.' However, what this has got to do with the Orange Order's alleged anti-Catholicism, I have no idea.

• Realist | Jul 10, 2012, 03:41 PM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol....at last, making a stab at it i see. However, not a very good one though. Sloan was indeed the equivalent of the first Grand Master of the OO. Given that the "Battle of the Diamond" was between the Catholic Defenders and the local Protestants, and that the latter group prevailed, it's hardly surprising that there were Catholic dead or that the Protestants celebrated victory and surviving in the aftermath - so what? You have still urged no proof that the OO is anti-Catholic. To quote from their website, they "declare their brotherhood in loyalty to the Crown, the country and the Reformed religion". I have asked you before and so will do again, would you please produce one item from their own website that is anti-Catholic?

• IrishAndProud | Jul 10, 2012, 02:50 PM EDT

  Uh, Patrick...just what is 'modern Ireland?' Care to define it, for us? The 'modern Ireland' I see has no place for either the Orange Order OR Celtic Roman Catholics, but only for politically-correct, unassimilatable foreigners. What's truly heart-breaking, Patrick, is people like YOU still obsessing over the Protestant-Catholic 'divide' whilst the cultures of both are being obliterated by the foreigners, there. It's like two kids with a life-long rivalry, still duking it out in the mud while non-Irish thugs, completely surrounding them, close in on both of them with knives and every other weapon -- and the two kids don't even notice. The Prods and the Catholics SHOULD be uniting, yes...to save Ireland from the much bigger menace of foreigners, who in less than 20 short years have done to Ireland what the Brits couldn't do in 700 years. I'm sorry, but anyone who doesn't (or won't) see that -- or who somehow thinks it's 'good' or 'broad-minded' to see Ireland disintegrating as it is -- is either blind to the threat, or has a white guilt complex that can only be assuaged by the destruction of their land, or that of their ancestors. And that is truly madness...mental illness of the worst kind.

• Kilsally | Jul 10, 2012, 01:14 PM EDT

  There are very few if any Orange marches through `nationalist areas`. Of 3000 parade most taking place this week , only 3 are contentious - Drumcree & Ardoyne being the two that hit the headlines every year. The Lodges paraded Garvaghy Road at Drumcree for nearly 200 years - it is only in the last 50 years that houses were built on the road. Lower Garvaghy Road has an Orange Arch as there is a small protestant community there. Ardoyne as local Orange lodges like Lord Erne Ardoyne north Belfast Orange Lodge. The parade follows the Crumlin Road and the flashpoint is the Ardoyne shops a commerical area which is an interface between communities. Crumlin Road is a main arterial route.

• sirpeter | Jul 10, 2012, 01:07 PM EDT

  Georgie Boy.What are you doing here?Have you run out articles where you can call Immigrants vermin?Or did Ciaradexy wipe the floor with ya again?lol

• WoundedKnee | Jul 10, 2012, 11:59 AM EDT

  SIRPETER: "citizen69.You are willfully trying to act stupid". You show him how to do it, sirpeter, you're a natural!

• Kilsally | Jul 10, 2012, 11:55 AM EDT

  Author also misquotes qualifications of an Orangeman An Orangeman should have a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly Father, a humble and steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, believing in Him as the only Mediator between God and man. He should cultivate truth and justice, brotherly kindness and charity, devotion and piety, concord and unity, and obedience to the laws; his deportment should be gentle and compassionate, kind and courteous; he should seek the society of the virtuous, and avoid that of the evil; he should honour and diligently study the Holy Scriptures, and make them the rule of his faith and practice; he should love, uphold, and defend the Protestant religion, and sincerely desire and endeavour to propagate its doctrines and precepts; he should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome and other Non-Reformed faiths, and scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act or ceremony of Roman Catholic or other non-Reformed Worship; he should, by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy, encroachments, and the extension of their power, ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments towards all those who do not practice the Reformed and Christian Faith; he should remember to keep holy the Sabbath Day, and attend the public worship of God, and diligently train up his offspring, and all under his control, in the fear of God, and in the Protestant faith; he should never take the name of God in vain, but abstain from all cursing and profane language, and use every opportunity of discouraging those, and all other sinful practices, in others; his conduct should be guided by wisdom and prudence, and marked by honesty, temperance, and sobriety, the glory of God and the welfare of man, the honour of his Sovereign, and the good of his country, should be the motives of his actions.

• Kilsally | Jul 10, 2012, 11:54 AM EDT

  Author seems ignorant of both Irish and European law. The Irish constitution guaranatees the right to freedom of peaceful assembly as does the European Court of Human Rights. The Order already parades in Donegal and other locations in the Republic without a hint of bother. Indeed only Saturday past the Orange Order parade in Rossnowlagh from the Church of Ireland Church to a filed beside the beach for their religious service. Author seems to forget Orange Lodges in England, Scotland, Wales, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ghana & Togo

• Kilsally | Jul 10, 2012, 11:50 AM EDT

  Orange Order Education Officer was awarded cross community award a couple of years ago by Catholic Schools for his work with them. This years Orange Order designated charity is the Northern Ireland Children`s Hospice.

• Kilsally | Jul 10, 2012, 11:47 AM EDT

  The Orange Order doesn`t believe anything not contained in the Anglican 39 articles of the Presbyterian / Baptist Westminster confession or indeed the Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther, John Kox, John Calvin, Zwingli, John Bunyan, Wycliffe, Jan Hus, William Tyndale all split from Rome and lambasted it`s teachings as false - many churchs continue to do so today in America. The US Lutheran Church believes the Pope is the Anti-Christ.

• Kilsally | Jul 10, 2012, 11:45 AM EDT

  Very inaccurate article. Orange parades celebrate civil and religious liberties gained by way of the Glorious Revolution which saw William of Orange and the League of Augsburg with his elite Catholic Dutch Guards defeat his father in law Catholic King James who was in league with despot King Loui of France

• sirpeter | Jul 10, 2012, 09:46 AM EDT

  Orange Order~The Order's three main founders were James Wilson (founder of the Orange Boys),Daniel Winter and James Sloan.The first Orange lodge established in nearby Dyan,County Tyrone.Its first grand master was James Sloan of Loughgall,in whose inn the victory by the Peep-o'-Day Boys after the killing of 30 Catholics was celebrated.Like the Peep-o'-Day Boys,one of Orange Orders goals was to hinder the efforts of Irish Catholic nationalist groups and uphold the "Protestant Ascendancy"Prime Minister Craig (1932)All I boast is that we have a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State" Ulster was in effect Protestant and the symbol of its ruling forces was the Orange Order.In effect Discrimination and Hostility directed against Catholicism.That's my case.Do you deny these historic facts? Yes or No? No need to ring up the Grand Master

• Realist | Jul 10, 2012, 07:12 AM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol.... ’shouting’ at me in capital letters now? Dear oh dear. To paraphrase David Trimble, I think you need to be house-trained. My friend, don't be a silly boy. The established legal premise in any civil society is "innocent until proven guilty"; in short the presumption of innocence (a basic human right in fact). Both you and Mr Roberts are clearly accusing the OO of being anti-Catholic. Again, consistent with long established and internationally recognized legal precepts, the law is clear....the burden of proof is on the accuser....always has been and always will be (except, perhaps, for the likes of Jean McConville in her IRA kangaroo court or the victims of the Shankill Butchers). You will have to learn that you simply cannot go around making statements and claims without expecting to be asked to substantiate those statements and claims. I suggest you either make your case, or be once again laughed out of court. Now, what part of that do you not understand?

• citizen69 | Jul 10, 2012, 07:00 AM EDT

  @Sirpeter: Nonsense... 'An Tost Fada' was just a small part of my argument. You spent an inordinate amount of time dissecting one tv show (which you probably copied & pasted from some Republican website) in which your argument was more concerned about compensation and a few dates than the actual murders themselves...while at the same time completely ignoring the bulk of my other evidence. I suppose you will call the Church leaders and contemporary Irish newspaper reports (posted below) liars too? You try to sweep Ireland's sordid past under the rug but you can't hide the huge lump it has created on which you are constantly tripping over!

• sirpeter | Jul 10, 2012, 06:50 AM EDT

  citizen69.You are willfully trying to act stupid.You are starting to bore me now.

• sirpeter | Jul 10, 2012, 05:12 AM EDT

  citizen69.I have already replied to this accusation in "The Queen wears green as she greets Martin McGuinness"article and about An Tost Fada (the Long Silence)Eoghan Harris (and columnist co-thinker, John Paul McCarthy)who try to promote a false sectarian narrative about the Irish War of Independence.You had no answer to what I wrote counteracting your false allegation.If you want to believe a pack of lies because it suits ya go right ahead.But I can copy and paste this comment every time you make that false allegation a lot easier and faster than it will take you to type it.

• citizen69 | Jul 10, 2012, 05:08 AM EDT

  @sirpeter: I don't believe your mentality sometimes..."It's easy to know who started it first.Because the native Catholics were attacked and invaded by foreigners mostly from Scotland and supported by the British Crown in the first place.". So every murder of a protestant has been justified because of a plantation over 400 years ago? Every attack on a Catholic is sectarian brutality and every attack on a Protestant is justified because well, they started it by settling here? Why stop at 400 years ago? Sure we might as well go back 1400 years ago and blame it on Ulster Gaels for invading Caledonia (Scotland) first and then i can get to blame everything on the Irish! Or go back further and blame the Uí Neill for pushing out the Ulstermen. Damn it, lets just go back to the start and blame the people from Scotland who were the first people to settle on Ireland 9000 years ago! I have no problem admitting Protestants, Unionists or Orangemen have been in the wrong and acted shamefully on a hell of a lot of occasions but you seem to have this very blinkerd view that the "native" irish are pure, innocent, totally blameless and can be held personally responsible for nothing because of an ancient hurt. Grow up.

• citizen69 | Jul 10, 2012, 04:35 AM EDT

  @seanomelb: My point being a response to Bunkerhill & Sirpeter who seem to be of the opinion that southern Protestants never suffered violence or intimidation against them.

• jmccarten | Jul 10, 2012, 03:14 AM EDT

  The Orange Order should not march they will antagonize and alienate a lot of people. America had a civil war where 600,000 people got killed, we let it go and were a better country for it. BTW Sirpeter do you have a job or something or do you spend all day hating others on the Irish web siteweb.

• sirpeter | Jul 09, 2012, 08:38 PM EDT

  RedBranch.Plenty stone mad Southerners as well.lol We didn't have the checkpoints in Cork you see.He grew up with them.I was laughing my ass off.I was more concerned about the £10 fine and maybe a day in court I would get for him not wearing a helmet and messing about.lol He was skipping over the border to "safety" in a few weeks anyway.RedBranch I think my Feile days are over for a while.I have a wife and two young teens and a 10 year old.I can't just swan off like the old days.It's all foreign holidays with them.But I do get the odd week down West Cork with them.I get my fill of trad music and proper drink then.

• sirpeter | Jul 09, 2012, 08:09 PM EDT

  Citizen69."Unrelenting attacks on Catholics" caused retaliation.Retaliation!! Citizen69 Retaliation!!.Self-defence using Retaliation!!There was unrelenting attacks on Catholics FIRST.It's easy to know who started it first.Because the native Catholics were attacked and invaded by foreigners mostly from Scotland and supported by the British Crown in the first place.Protestants kept pushing Catholics off their land.How can this be so confusing Citizen69?

• sirpeter | Jul 09, 2012, 07:39 PM EDT

  Unrealist.There's a want in you lol.According to Wiki a load of Critics have accused the Orange Order of being sectarian,triumphalist and supremacist.What do you want me to do? Name the critics? I said GENERAL consensus ya thicko.Not CONSENSUS.Do I now have to explain the meaning of words when used together.lolI guess I do because you might not be joking.Adjective:GENERAL~Applying to MOST (Not all) members of a category or group.Noun:CONSENSUS~Agreement in the judgment or opinion reached by a GROUP AS A WHOLE (meaning all)GENERAL CONSENSUS: Meaning~Most of us here agree on this article that the Orange Order is anti-Catholic.We (meaning mostly those who posted and Patrick Roberts) weighed up the vast historic evidence against the Orange Order and it has been found GUILTY!! (by IC majority and Patrick Roberts) of complicit involvement in anti-Catholic devilment over the centuries.You can keep pleading Orange Order innocents.But you must STATE your case.The burden of PROOF in now on you.By the way you can't have a consensus of ONE as you stated in your last sentence.lolollol.You're like free legal aid for a blackman in Johannesburg in 1960.

• seanomelb | Jul 09, 2012, 07:17 PM EDT

  And your point been what citizen69!!

• DanOLoingsigh | Jul 09, 2012, 06:14 PM EDT

  Maybe I'm missing something here, but if so many posters lie awake at night dreaming of a united Ireland, how come they absolutely despise so many of the new citizens they would have to 'welcome' into their new world? or is that not really part of the plan?

• citizen69 | Jul 09, 2012, 05:50 PM EDT

  On May 2nd 1922 the Irish Times reported that 'large amounts of Southern Protestants were in Rosslare heading for England.'... June 14th 1923 Bishop Dr Charles Dowse spoke of how: 'many of our people have gone. Their homes have been burned. Destruction has marched through the land.' ... July 6th, 1923, Bishop Dr William Moore described how: 'One of the saddest features of the situation is that so many of our communion have been driven from the country. By their expulsion such citizens are now much fewer than they were'... February 17th 1923 the Catholic Bishop of Cork, Dr Daniel Colohan, described how 'Protestants have suffered severely during the period of civil war in the south'... May 8th 1923, the Catholic Bishop of Killaloe, Dr Michael Fogarty noted 'Our Protestant fellow countrymen were persecuted and dealt with in a cruel and coarse manner.'

• Realist | Jul 09, 2012, 05:44 PM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol....well, here we are again. Once more you've made statements and claims....once more you've then been asked to substantiate those statements and claims....once more you've been found wanting. Why can't you answer straight questions? Indeed, all you can muster in return is rubbish like this, "The general consensus is that the Orange Order is anti-Catholic.At this point weather it's true or not that's the general consensus as you can see." Lol....what "consensus"? Basically, some people are saying this and it doesn't matter if it's true or not. Then, you proceed to pat yourself on the back with some 'success' story from another thread....I thought you had hit rock bottom with that until, after making all these claims, you finished off with, "I don't have to prove anything". Please, salvage some credibility and tell me you're a professional comedian. That's the "consensus" from my point of view anyway....lol.

• citizen69 | Jul 09, 2012, 05:26 PM EDT

  @Sirpeter: "the 13 killings were thought to be revenge for unrelenting attacks on Catholics in the new state of Northern Ireland. Was it a one-off sectarian response to unionist sectarianism?". In the six months from late 1921 to mid 1922, 80 Catholics had been murdered in Belfast but during that same period 72 Protestants had also been murdered in the city. Hardly a one-way anti-Catholic pogrom then when both sides were killing each other at a similar rate.

• RedBranch | Jul 09, 2012, 05:17 PM EDT

  Ah yes sirpeter the 'mad northerner', every county should have one. Well even if you miss the 12th. this year chances are it'll be around in the same form next year should you change your mind. Later this month is the Feile if that more your style. We could take in on one of their tours which end up in the 'Felons Club' and a glass of Guinness.

• sirpeter | Jul 09, 2012, 04:18 PM EDT

  Ranger1640.In April 28 1922 in West Cork, four months after the Anglo-Irish Treaty split and two months before the onset of civil war?Thirteen Protestant civilians were killed or disappeared, while three leading British intelligence officers and their driver disappeared from Macroom.Apart from the first three victims being held responsible for shooting dead an IRA officer, the precise reason for the following ten civilian deaths is unknown. So also is whether these killings were connected with the nearby disappearance of the British Army personnel.The possibility that civilian informer intelligence information was divulged has also been speculated upon. In the immediate aftermath, the 13 killings were thought to be revenge for unrelenting attacks on Catholics in the new state of Northern Ireland. Was it a one-off sectarian response to unionist sectarianism?Dorothy Macardle in The Irish Republic (1937) thought this might have been the reason and listed the extent of republican condemnation.Both sides of the Treaty divide, including Griffith and De Valera, and local republicans, condemned the killings. The Cork IRA leadership, who were away at army unity talks in Dublin, returned and organised guards on loyalists thought to be vulnerable.One so guarded was the Rector of Macroom who told a British officer looking for the missing officers he had no complaints about IRA treatment. That is what his son, AJS (Stephen) Brady, reported in his memoir, The Briar of Life (2010).The IRA guard in this case was the father of distinguished UCC Historian, Professor John A Murphy. Subsequent research has undermined the sectarianism explanation and has exposed ethical failures in historian Peter Hart’s commentary in The IRA and its Enemies (1998)

• sirpeter | Jul 09, 2012, 03:30 PM EDT

  RedBranch.It made me laugh when you said foreign travel is good for broading the horizons and then you said you went to Galway.What's that a three and a half hour drive from home?lolol.As a Corkman I get that foreign travel feeling every time I drive over the Cork County Bounds into Kerry and that's only an hours drive away.lol Try explaining that to Irish Americans.Thanks for your invite to an Orange parade.But I have noticed that some Ulstermen are a bit unpredictable after a skinful of drink.Back in the early 80's this Belfast guy asked me to give him a lift home on the back of my motorbike.I wasn't drinking because I had the bike.He seemed perfectly normal until the air hit him as we were driving through Cork City.Stopped at each traffic light he kept jumping off the back of the motorbike and shouting SHANKILL RD CHECKPOINT!!SHANKILL RD CHECKPOINT!! and holding an imaginary gun to the car behind.I was embarrassed but it was funny as hell looking at the faces of the people in the cars.But it was kind of stone mad too if a cop saw him.He regressed back to some dark mad spot in his brain.I didn't want to just drive off but I timed those traffic lights very well after the second time he did it.Naw!!I think I'll give that parade a miss.lololol

• ranger1640 | Jul 09, 2012, 02:56 PM EDT

  The Dunmanway murders in county Cork were 10 protestant men were summarily executed. DUBLIN, April 28.--In Country Cork murders of an appalling nature have been committed during the past fortyeight hours. Armed men shot dead three Protestants in Dunmanway Wednesday night, two being nearly 80 years old. Last night at Ballineen, seven miles distant, four Protestants met a like fate. One is stated to be the Protestant clergyman... Then see how the Irish state and the roman catholic church conspired to try and eradicate Protestant with their sectarian Ne Temere. Now search Fethard-on-Sea Boycott: Ireland, 1957

• citizen69 | Jul 09, 2012, 02:22 PM EDT

  @Bunkerhill: The Irish Washington was reefering to were the Scots-Irish, who were simply known as Irish in America at the time. The Scots-Irish were seen as the main agitators for independence. They made up around a third of the Continental army even though they counted for only 6% of the population. Even King George III called the war "that damned Presbyterian rebellion". The Prime Minister of England Horace Walpole rose in Parliament to say: "There is no use crying about it. Cousin America has eloped with a Presbyterian parson," President William McKinley said: "The Scots-Irish were the first to proclaim for freedom of these United States; even before Lexington, Scots-Irish blood had been shed for American freedom. In the forefront of every battle was seen their burnished mail.". President Theodore Roosevelt wrote: "It is a curious fact that in the Revolutionary War, the Germans and Catholic Irish should have furnished the bulk of the auxiliaries to the regular English soldiers; but the most ardent Americans of all were the Presbyterian Irish settlers and their descendants.". Owen Wister, father of the American Western wrote: "Americans are being told they owe a debt of support to Irish Independence, because the Irish fought with us in our own struggle for independence. Yes, the Irish did, and we do owe a debt of support. But it was the Orange Irish who fought in our Revolution, and not the Green Irish."

• ciaradexy | Jul 09, 2012, 12:43 PM EDT

  Ha! Most Irish people hate the Catholic church thats why less than 25% of the population attend mass and most of them are Polish!

• ancavker | Jul 09, 2012, 12:19 PM EDT

  citizen: The fact that Ireland had a High King (even though weak) is all the evidence that one needs that Ireland was considered as a single entity. Fast forward to modern times, and I might even have been OK with the temporary partition of Ireland had the boundary commission done what is was supposed to do. Tyrone, Fermanagh, south Armagh, and west Derry never should have been included in the 6 counties.

• bunkerhill | Jul 09, 2012, 10:21 AM EDT

  To Citizen69, George Washington came from Virginia which along with Maryland was from pre-revolutionary war days had a large Irish catholic population. He is reputed to have said during a Northern battle, he wished he had a regiment of his "Irish" soldiers from Virginia. Also a real hero in the Revolutionary war was a young man from Pennsylvania named Timothy Murphy. Murphy, a sharp shooter was picked by the freedom fighters to shoot a british general and he succeeded. With the general gone the British troops panicked and scattered. Most Scots-Irish went into the hills. By the way, I am not a schizophrenic and the medical problem I am talking about will be known to all in a year or two. Also the USA has now removed the designation Scots-Irish from our census roles as they saw no reason for it. I suppose you can now chose to be Scot or Irish, but not Scots-Irish. No one has pointed out to us an instance of religious violence against Protestants in the Republic.

• RedBranch | Jul 09, 2012, 10:00 AM EDT

  eiriamach, good post regarding 'Freedom'! sirpeter still waiting on a RSVP on my invite, come'on up it'll be an education....

• RedBranch | Jul 09, 2012, 09:57 AM EDT

  Ah foreign travel is good for broading the horizons, perhaps it would be good for all to get a little glimpse outside their own environs. I found Galway just the tonic this time of year and en-route home enjoyed the Battle of the Boyne interpretative centre, even if my plea for northern prods to have free admission didn't work.

• sirpeter | Jul 09, 2012, 08:45 AM EDT

  UnRealist.As for you wanting an answer on how much violence was instigated at Rossnowlagh on Saturday? I don't know.You tell me!!It's not like I'm going to disbelieve you or anything.I can't be wasting my time on trivia.I do know it costs a fortune to police these hundreds of OO parades and that the OO is trying to control it's hooligans.This is good.But I do wonder if this is the reason for the OO falling numbers.Like the KKK parades the numbers fell off when they couldn't lynch the odd black or two.Unless these parades can antagonize the fun element is gone for them.

• sirpeter | Jul 09, 2012, 08:26 AM EDT

  UnRealist Yes I have visited the site.I've been looking up all things orange.But I have to cross-reference information from other sources.I don't know what you mean by not getting anywhere.The general consensus is that the Orange Order is anti-Catholic.At this point weather it's true or not that's the general consensus as you can see.What is surprising is the failure of people like yourself to successfully defend the Orange Order with a series of contradictory information.(See The Queen wears green as she greets Martin McGuinness article)Where I challenged citizen69 on an RTE program "‘An Tost Fada’ on the plight of Cork Protestants".I exposed this program as been 90% untrue and have plenty other sources to back up my information.Citizen69 failed to reply probably due to the fact that the program was exposed for what it was.Fact is easier to defend than fiction.You won,t get a general consensus with historians on detail if it is fiction.The story can be similar but the detail is different.The Orange Order/loyalist supporters arguments here don't disprove the accusations on bigotry therefore I don't have to prove anything.I would have corrected the poster on the "To hell or to Connaught" phrase but Dano did that already.I seek the truth unfortunately for ye.lol

• Schon | Jul 09, 2012, 06:04 AM EDT

  Hi there seanomelb. While the tyrannosaurus was rightly proud that his da was a supporter of enlightenment and progress your da was probably wiping the deposed King James' arse and looking to see what riches he could find there. As Mrs Doyle in Father Ted would say 'Fech off and let the prods march.' Sure it might make Dublin look a happier place to get some income from a real currency for a change. (Not to mention the £3.5Billion we've already gave you to sort out your economy.) Oh and by the bye,if you do see that tyrannosaurus again, don't bad mouth him or you might end up having a bad day although he might have some competition considering the size of your mouth.

• Schon | Jul 09, 2012, 05:49 AM EDT

  The reason the 'Bigoted Orange Order' exists was to protect protestant people from the ravages of the local Irish. The 12th of July parades celebrate the victory of King William of Orange against a rabble that supported the deposed King James II of England . Strange ain't it that the very Pope in Rome was a supporter of King William? So why were the Roman Catholic Irish supporting an enemy of the Pope? I reckon that this is why the Irish are so against the Orange Order. It shows them to be the hypocrites that they truly are. Always on the look out for a quick buck? (What about the Irish economy today?) We can also see that given its head that the Roman Catholic Irish state has victimised its own people much better that the prods could ever do. Could we wonder why the Irish state's must successful export is its children? And why do these children prefer to live in Northern Ireland and England? The 1911 census was used in determining the partitioning of Ireland. The decision was to split the country with a demography of 75%RC/25%Prod for the Free State and 75%Prod/25%RC for the Ulster. (This happens to be why the province of Ulster was split between the north and south.) It is strange then that in 1972 it was shown that the population demographics had changed. The South with its religious freedom and open society (I can't resist the sarcasm here) has seen the protestant minority increase from 25% to less than 5% while in the religiously intolerant, bigoted, anti Roman Catholic North, the RC population dropped from 25% to 40%. I'm afraid the real reason is you don't want the Orange Order march is that you might have to tell your priests to start telling the truth... that in 1690 King William and the Pope beat the deposed King James and that your lot picked the wrong side. Ha ha.

• esatdigiwank | Jul 09, 2012, 04:00 AM EDT

  Allan07: "every country has its day of celebrations. Canada day, US Independent day, etc.." Funny is it why every country has its Independence Day except us...Could it be that we've never been independent in the conventional sense? Merely ruled by a proxy establishment of London...

• Realist | Jul 09, 2012, 03:26 AM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol....didn't get anywhere on the original topic and now moving on to something else I see. Still, why not answer my questions? Have you visited the official web site of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland yet? If so, once again, would you please produce one piece of evidence to substantiate the claim that the Orange Order is an anti-Roman Catholic organisation? Also, and for the third time of asking, how much violence was instigated at Rossnowlagh on Saturday?

• seanomelb | Jul 09, 2012, 12:36 AM EDT

  I just saw a tyrannosaurus Rex ride by wearing an orange sash and a bowler hat.He claims his daddy fought at the Boyne.

• sirpeter | Jul 08, 2012, 09:57 PM EDT

  They are still in the 19th century.Nelson McCausland (DUP))In June 2009, he was appointed Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, and it was in his capacity AS MINISTER OF STATE that in May 2010,he wrote to the Ulster Museum requesting that it display a range of Creationist and other anti-Evolution material,claiming that it was the Museum's JOB!! to "reflect the views of all the people in Northern Ireland" rather than to reflect the understanding of modern science.Can you believe that??It has nothing got to do with established proven facts with these guys.They mix their fairy tale history and science up in a large Religious Orange Order bowl and dish it out.They want us to swallow that then.You make allowances for the ignorant but it goes right to the top.McCausland is of the belief that Ulster Protestants descended from one of the lost tribes of Israel.LOL.Lost is the word.See how the get their lies and delusions across.They use museum's as Churches.I'm not even sure if a UI could save this lot.

• johnymac60 | Jul 08, 2012, 09:24 PM EDT

  Right lads, a quick correction. You are of course correct in the origin of the "...Connaught."phrase, and I attributed it incorrectly. I mis-typed in my zest to take Mr. Realist to task in his apparent support for OO. What I should have said was they used this phrase extensively during their campaign of Ethnic Cleansing along the Ulster border. Any correction? Thanks for that. Mr. Realist, the answer to your request to "...produce one statement or policy document..." is no, I will not. Do your own study, the works on the history of Ireland and in particular the OO are readily available, and ANYONE who has knowledge of these scum are well aware of their origin and reason for their existence. Although again, I warn you against believing their own propaganda. I realise that you may not understand the actual political alignment of the OO if you are unfamiliar with anything except the parochial politics in the North of Ireland. In global political definitions, the OO falls far to the extreme right of a normal political range. I'm not sure what you find hard to understand about that. Do you think them to be socialists, perhaps? Additionally, their extreme and exclusionary religious focus places them in the totalitarian and ethnically specific groupings farthest from democracy. Lastly, you ask what was 'upsetting' me, although I used no emotional language. The OO does upset me though. When the KTP bands (OO) marched down my street, kicked in our door and dragged us into the street it was quite upsetting. There probably was no actual policy document supporting that either, pal. GFY.

• seanomelb | Jul 08, 2012, 06:45 PM EDT

  allano7 just doesn't get it the Irish wished a plague on both their royal houses.As far as royal honours are concerned the British have no problem knighting clapped out drug using rock stars or confirming lordships on OO racist bigots, Lord Laird comes to mind or to give him his proper title Lord Lord.Lordy lordy! who will they honour next? The allan07's of this world are more to be pitied than laughed at.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jul 08, 2012, 06:34 PM EDT

  johnymac60 - Think you'll find Cromwell is credited with the Connaught phrase - still, why let facts get in the way of a good rant, eh?

• allan07 | Jul 08, 2012, 06:29 PM EDT

  The Roman Catholic Church is bigotted against every other religion. The claim the children of mixed marriages to be Roman Catholic. Is that not bigotted? This very media IC is holy bigotted against the unionist people. When do we ever have a debate with protestant people from the Orange Lodges? Never. But we sure a hell always have St. Patricks day pushed down our throats. Even although most of the protestant people dont believe in saints. The RC Church make Pope John Paul 11 a saint even although he was in charge during the investigations into sexual child abuses in Ireland (Northern and Southern). It a bit like the British Royal Family knighting Gary Glitter for his serves to music. The Roman Catholics in Ireland simply cannot accept the fact that King James lost on the 1st July 1690. Defeat is hard to accept but he did. Move on. Just in case a few silly people reply to this every country has its day of celebrations. Canada day, US Independent day, etc. The 12th of July is the best day in the year. Even better than Christmas day, Boxing Day or any other day. Hope the sun shines and everyone enjoys themselves. @Realist stop being a party popper enjoy the day. A few drinks down your neck and forget about all the rubbish your vomit out.

• Realist | Jul 08, 2012, 04:34 PM EDT

  johnymac60: My friend, asking someone to substantiate their statements and claims with facts does not equate to "support". What have I written that is a "lie"? Also, I am well aware of the history and origins of the Orange Order. To start with, the phrase "To Hell of Connaught" was first coined by Oliver Cromwell....not some group in the late 18th Century. There are many conflicting reports concerning the period of the 1798 Rebellion, however rather than list them all here, I will challenge you....Would you please produce evidence to substantiate your statement that the Orange Order "was created specifically to murder Catholics"? I'm afraid you lost me on the political 'closeness' of the OO to fascism. Would you please produce one statement or policy document from the OO that advocated "ethnic cleansing"? By the way, when I write "lol" I do not mean Loyal Orange Lodge, just in case that's what's been upsetting you....lol.

• KweenOHearts | Jul 08, 2012, 04:15 PM EDT

  **Anti-Catholic hatred they spout has no place in modern Ireland** --- But it sure is alive, well, and very welcome by O'Dowd and all his FAUXlumnists at IC!

• eiriamach | Jul 08, 2012, 03:53 PM EDT

  Patrick Roberts writes, "There is freedom to march and then there is freedom from bigotry." WoW! Is that the frame of mind in European Ireland now? We in the USA never dreamed of "freedom from bigotry" happening here. In fact, it's likely that it never will happen here. We knew back in 1775 that government cannot legislate virtue into its citizens or legislate vice out of them, that the best it can do is to leave them as free as possible to do the right thing by each other. So, WoW, let me know how it works out, whether banning the Orange March makes a finer, more upright citizenry, with bigotry dead in Ireland forever (even sirpeter's?). As for me, I prefer my freedom to a ban on bigotry-- and I insist on the same freedom for those who hate me-- because when they're not free to express their hatred in the light of day, I know it will take a darker route and spread like poison :/

• johnymac60 | Jul 08, 2012, 03:32 PM EDT

  Hi all. At time of logging in their are 95 comments posted here. Excuse me as I do not intend to backtrack through them all. It appears that a know-nothing from the Belfast Telegraph has accidently strayed upon this page. Realist, Your take on the comments directed at the OO/KKK indicates either a support for that organisation or simply complete and utter ignorance of their actual history - (IE, not the 'history' written on their website.) - . Fact 1. The OO/KKK was created specifically to murder Catholics. (EG, the phrase "To Hell or to Connaught." was created by them to describe their reign of terror during which they systematically threatened and murdered many Catholics along the Southern border of Ulster, in order to steal the highly prized farmland in the area. Fact 2. In Geopolitical terms, the OO/KKK is politically closest to Fascism, and mimics totalitarianism in their historical attempts at Ethnic Cleansing and One-group ascendancy. Fact 3. LOL, at the end of a lie or a stupid statement does not render it factual or more erudite. Any more questions concerning OO/KKK? I applaud your openness to your personal education.

• Realist | Jul 08, 2012, 08:44 AM EDT

  "I recognise that there are 1 million people on this island who are British and let me state here and now that as a proud Irish Republican I not only recognise the Unionist and British identity I respect it" - Martin McGuinness, 26th May, 2012. "The British either walk out or get thrown out" - sirpeter, 17th April, 2011.

• Realist | Jul 08, 2012, 08:07 AM EDT

  sirpeter: "I'm not here to be helpful or understanding.I want to insult these people." Well, my friend, that is quite a sad admission but hardly surprising. Still, for your sake, I'm glad you're finally out of the closet on this. To be honest, the only sectarianism I see here emanates from you and the usual kindergarten of ill-informed Irish Americans (however, I grant them a fool's pardon). I'm afraid, at the end of the day, you're only fooling yourselves.

• Realist | Jul 08, 2012, 07:46 AM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol....once again more sectarian cat calling. This really is a problem for you, isn't it? Did you even visit the official web site of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland as I suggested? If so, I will ask again, would you please produce one piece of evidence to substantiate the claim that the Orange Order is an anti-Roman Catholic organisation? Also, and for the second time of asking, how much violence was instigated at Rossnowlagh yesterday?

• citizen69 | Jul 08, 2012, 06:37 AM EDT

  @sirpeter: the neo-Nazis call for the persecution and eradication of Jews. The KKK call for the persecution and eradication of non-whites. The Orange Order DON'T call for the persecution or eradication of anyone. I seem to recall reading that during those New York Draft Riots, mentioned below by Pittsburghkid, the Irish had a quite a penchant for murdering and lynching black people though. I guess we can class all the New York Irish as bigots & racists now, can't we? Even more so since the A.O.H who organise the huge St. Patrick's day parade in New York every year won't permit a Protestant to join their ranks. How do you feel about the fact that around half of the protestant population of Ulster turn out to watch Orange parades on 12th July? Are they all part of the 'Orange Devil' in your eyes? Why don't you go ahead and petition to have the Orange panel removed from the flag of the Irish Republic? There's many a northerner who would thank you for it. So glad your name can now go on the list alongside 93% of the NI population who aren't bothered about a United Ireland either.

• citizen69 | Jul 08, 2012, 05:27 AM EDT

  @Pittsburghkid: Both the Orange riots of the 1870's and the Draft Riots of 1863 were started by Catholic Irish.

• Mickey Ryan | Jul 08, 2012, 02:43 AM EDT

  F'n proddyz

• sirpeter | Jul 07, 2012, 09:08 PM EDT

  Scrivner if you want to keep your rear sphincter muscle from been diversified I would advise you not to try and join any orange parade.And it wouldn't be the Catholics who would be uptight.

• sirpeter | Jul 07, 2012, 08:43 PM EDT

  @UnRealist.But the Billy Boys are sectarian.Can a Catholic join the Orange Order? NO!!Can a Jew join a neo-Nazi rally?No!!Can a negro join the KKK?NO!!I'll label these people for what they are.I'm not here to be helpful or understanding.I want to insult these people.I want to stand up to their immoral beliefs.All these groups want to do is indoctrinate poison and fear into their innocent children heads.I will never except the Orange Order in it's present form.I'm not that desperate for United Ireland.Unity with the Orange devil??.You must be joking.Englishman you can keep paying and paying and paying and paying for NI.They won't march near me.And if Protestant Unionists want us to except this sect.They will be waiting.Anyway they are a dying breed.A scourge on modern day multiculturalism which is the future of Ireland and Europe.But nobody wants that bigot "culture"

• seanomelb | Jul 07, 2012, 08:41 PM EDT

  citizen69 or should it be British subject69 Ireland had a king,brehon laws and a central structure based at Tara when Britain was a medley of fiefdoms.

• Scrivner | Jul 07, 2012, 04:24 PM EDT

  It's time to think "out of the box" to defuse this monster! How about scheduling the Gay Pride Parade at the same time? The colourful intermingling of costumes, the beat of the music and, as everyone knows, a close order drill team of gay guys can't be topped! Would also show up some uptight Catholics as to what real diversity is.

• Realist | Jul 07, 2012, 03:56 PM EDT

  bunkerhill: "I am so glad to hear....that the Orange Order does parade in London and that is the place for all their parades"? Why do you think that? The Orange Order are free to parade anywhere in the U.K. and that includes Northern Ireland. Lol....so the Irish Free State (which, by the way, existed since 1922 not for a few years before WWII as you assert), could not afford to help fight the Nazis? Well, that's the first time I've read that excuse. I suggest you consult the papers of David Gray, U.S. Ambassador to the Irish Free State during WWII - see what he has to say about Irish neutrality and Eamon De Valera. The rest of your 'comment' seems to be the sort of ill-informed rubbish that Sir Ted Kennedy was regaling us with in 1971 when he suggested that the Ulster Protestants "should be given a decent opportunity to go back to Britain". The fact that they were there 200 years before his own family left Wexford for the United States seems to have escaped him....lol.

• Pittsburghkid | Jul 07, 2012, 03:55 PM EDT

  In the 1870's, the Orange marched in New York. This caused a riot worse then the Draft Riots of 1863. Today in New York, the Orange don't Parada. If the Orange want to March, then they should have the March in Belfast. In the United States, the Civil War was simular to the troubles. The City of Vicksburg did not celerbrate the 4th of July for about 80 years. Americans respected Vicksburg feeling, and said nothing. Americans have a live and let live fellings about the Civil War. We have our re-enactments of battles, but no Parades. Maybe the Irish Catolic Novelist Margret Mitchell's "Gone with the Wind" healed the bitterness. Ironically, because a large part of the Confederacy was made up of Scotch-Irish, and English.

• Realist | Jul 07, 2012, 03:11 PM EDT

  "The Orange institution and its members want to play a full role in the civic society of this country. At Grand Lodge level we will do everything we can to make that aim a reality." - Edward Stevenson, Grand Master of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland, Rossnowlagh, County Donegal, 7th July 2012.

• Realist | Jul 07, 2012, 03:06 PM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol....there you go again....why do you persist with this divisive sectarian labelling? My friend, sadly this seems to be a problem for you. I suggest you visit the official web site of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland and produce one piece of evidence to substantiate the claim that the Orange Order is an anti-Roman Catholic organisation. By the way, how much violence was instigated at Rossnowlagh today? Trying to equate them with Nazis is not only incorrect, ignorant, and insulting....it is also extremely unhelpful. I have to admit, one is left pondering your motives for this. However, reconciliation does not seem to be among them. Do you understand?

• sirpeter | Jul 07, 2012, 01:59 PM EDT

  @Unrealist.Ok so you're an English Billy Boy supporter.The fact is the Orange Order are a bunch of anti-Catholic bigots.This has nothing got do with the Unionist community that don't march.I'd also be against neo-Nazi marches.~~Demonstrations against a planned neo-Nazi rally in Dresden turned violent on Saturday.Officers used truncheons, tear gas and water cannons to prevent protesters from breaking into an area reserved for right-wing extremists who had been granted permission to gather in the eastern city.Billy Boys and Nazi's need to get a clear message that they are not wanted.If you are willing to march where you are clearly not wanted.That group is instigating violence.Simple as that.

• citizen69 | Jul 07, 2012, 12:13 PM EDT

  @bunkerhill: Forget the Scots-Irish having a problem, I'm beginning thinks it is you that has a medical problem! Are you using the royal 'we' or are you schizophrenic? As for those Scots-Irish you insist on being belligerent to, you most likely would not be living in an independent United States if it wasn't for their efforts in the Revolutionary War.

• bunkerhill | Jul 07, 2012, 10:31 AM EDT

  It is still unbelievably hot and we are still in the computer room. I am so glad to hear from Realist that the Orange Order does parade in London and that is the place for all their parades. For Ranger164 how could Ireland be involved in WWII when they only received their freedom a few years earlier. There was no treasury for war. However 50,000 Irish did volunteer. One thing puzzles us however. How could this be a Catholic vs Protestant thing when we saw Episcopalian, Methodist and all manner of Protestant churches across the Republic. The signs pointing to the Church of Ireland would lead you to an Episcopalian Church and no one objected. Many Irish Freedom Fighters were Episcopalian. A friend of us told us that in his father's hometown in Cork the Episcopalian and Catholic priests would often fill in for each other. In fact we know of an instance where the Catholics raised money to help rebuild a neighboring Episcopalian church and vice versa. So this is not really a Protestant vs Catholic issue. As for Northern Irish moving South, why should they leave their rightful homeland. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the Scots move back to Scotland. It is a much bigger country and they are all commoners under the crown. They are not equals as the Irish and Americans are. The question is would they be let back in give the fact that they were put out. We still believe their is a medical problem involved and we are on the verge of a new frontier. That was proven to be the case in a terrible US feud. Once again we must add God Bless all the loving, brave Scots, some of whom are our relatives. By the way do you know the song about the MacDonalds and the Campbells? Although it is a beautiful song and march, we have been told no Scottish band will play it because of the awful atrocity involved. I think that refusal speaks to the sensitivity of the majority of Scots.

• ranger1640 | Jul 07, 2012, 09:54 AM EDT

  Today thousands of members of the Orange Order will descend upon Rosnowlagh, County Donegal to participate in the annual twelfth celebrations. Next year Dublin.

• LondonCeltPunk | Jul 07, 2012, 07:31 AM EDT

  i've made 2 comments that havent been posted yet you print comments of people defende the indefensable...by which i mean the fascist scum of the OO!

• cahalfinbarr | Jul 07, 2012, 05:58 AM EDT

  Ranger1640. Please do not refer to those bigoted morons as republicans. I assume that we are dealing with a small minority of mindless idiots or I would be ashamed of being catholic Irish.

• Realist | Jul 07, 2012, 04:15 AM EDT

  sirpeter: Lol....my friend, as I've pointed out many times, you are the one regularly employing terms of sectarian abuse such as, "Billy Boy", "hun", and "West Brit". I have no interest whatsoever in anyone's religious affiliation and, unlike you, I do not have an innate need to constantly label people as 'one or the other'. As I mentioned before on this site, I am actually English, so your constant and all too predictable assumptions regarding my background tell us much more about you and your attitudes than they ever will about me. The premise of the 'article' is that the OO should not be allowed to march through Dublin. I have used the "Love Ulster" parade as an example. My question was, how many Orangemen or bandsmen were arrested by the ROI police for violent behaviour or assault following the "Love Ulster" rally in 2006? You, as always, responded with the usual street corner sectarian cat calling. If Orangemen or anyone from the Unionist community in Northern Ireland is still concerned about the possibility of a "united Ireland", they need look no further than many of the bitter and ignorant comments expressed here to be reassured that it will never happen - and people like you never seem to disappoint ;)

• ranger1640 | Jul 07, 2012, 03:26 AM EDT

  Again with the republican ignorance and blatant Anti-Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist and Orange Order sectarianism. Not much point in trying to educate you lot, with your sectarian closed it would be pointless. All I can say is, NO SURRENDER.

• sirpeter | Jul 06, 2012, 09:59 PM EDT

  @Unrealist.Did you not listen to me.I have no time for AOH bullsh*t either.You think I'm Pro-Catholic don't ya?If I'm against Billy Boy bullsh*t I must be Catholic so you think.The AOH is sectarian and I'd sit eating popcorn happily if ye beat every last one of eachother to death..It's just Billy Boys do bigotry so much better than them.Ye have a knack for riots as well.Or maybe it's because every Billy Boy I met on this site doesn't want to be friends with me.Though I can't imagine why not.lol.Ye could do with the brains.

• Realist | Jul 06, 2012, 09:26 PM EDT

  I think it is interesting to contrast the reception to the attempted "Love Ulster" parade through Dublin in 2006 to that towards Irish Republican marches through London (not to mention the 'Bloody Sunday' march which took place each year in London for the best part of 40 years). How many Orangemen or bandsmen were arrested by the ROI police for violent behaviour or assault following the "Love Ulster" rally in 2006?

• Realist | Jul 06, 2012, 09:13 PM EDT

  sirpeter: "....who want to listen to a parade where they tell you sorry you can't participate because of your religion."? The Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH) regularly parade through the streets of cities in the U.S. and in Ireland....to celebrate St. Patrick's Day....lol. It has an exclusively Roman Catholic membership. By the same 'logic' used by some on this site regarding the Orange Order....it seems we must consider the AOH as anti-Protestant and therefore sectarian.

• Realist | Jul 06, 2012, 08:56 PM EDT

  bunkerhill: "Why are the Orange men not parading through the streets of London?" Lol....they do....in fact the last Orange Order parade through the centre of London took place on 16th June 2012 to celebrate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. This included English, Irish, and Scottish lodges.

• seanomelb | Jul 06, 2012, 08:08 PM EDT

  Ranger 1640 forgets or is in denial of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings.I think he is just another ignorant orange bully boy who spends his days reading the Belfast Newsletter.Just what we need on IC another orange fool.

• Realist | Jul 06, 2012, 07:50 PM EDT

  “It is possible to be both Irish and British, possible to be both Orange and Irish. We face into a landscape of new possibilities and understandings.” - Former President of the Republic of Ireland, Mary McAleese.

• ranger1640 | Jul 06, 2012, 05:39 PM EDT

  All I will add to the series of anti-Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist and Orange Order sectarian rants is this. The naked sectarianism being expressed here is precisely why there will never be a united Ireland. The ignorance and naked sectarian hatred being expressed here confirms why the Protestants, Unionists, Loyalists and the Orange Order will resist until their last breath a united Ireland. The PULO, people of Northern Ireland have never been the aggressors. Yet from partition we have had to share an Island that has harboured terrorists and gerrymandered constituencies to disfranchise and disadvantage Protestants in the RoI, well before any Unionist ever thought of it. Unionist never went across the border to bomb and murder. However the IRA continued their murder campaign after partition, bombing and shooting and hiding out in the open in the Irish republic. The Irish state along with the roman catholic church, which had a special place in the Irish constitution (how does that fit in with "Cherish all the children of the nation equally"), has done all in their power to eliminate every last vestige of the PULO population in the then Irish free state and then the republic of Ireland.

• bunkerhill | Jul 06, 2012, 05:32 PM EDT

  We would like to correct one statement in our last post and that would be "As Americans we would like to see." We do believe we have no right to meddle in the affairs of other countries.

• ranger1640 | Jul 06, 2012, 05:19 PM EDT

  All I will add to the series of anti-Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist and Orange Order sectarian rants is this. The naked sectarianism being expressed here is precisely why there will never be a united Ireland. The ignorance and naked sectarian hatred being expressed here confirms why the Protestants, Unionists, Loyalists and the Orange Order will resist until their last breath a united Ireland. The PULO, people of Northern Ireland have never been the aggressors. Yet from partition we have had to share an Island that has harboured terrorists and gerrymandered constituencies to disfranchise and disadvantage Protestants in the RoI, well before any Unionist ever thought of it. Unionist never went across the border to bomb and murder. However the IRA continued their murder campaign after partition, bombing and shooting and hiding out in the open in the Irish republic. The Irish state along with the roman catholic church, which had a special place in the Irish constitution (how does that fit in with "Cherish all the children of the nation equally"), has done all in their power to eliminate every last vestige of the PULO population in the then Irish free state and then the republic of Ireland.

• ranger1640 | Jul 06, 2012, 05:18 PM EDT

  And as for the Nazi references, the Irish government/state expressed it’s sorrow at the death of Hitler, and the IRA were helping the Nazis during WWII. After the war, the brave Irish men who fought against Nazi ternary had the indignity of being refused jobs and benefits in the RoI, forcing many to move to Britain. Yet the Irish state welcomed some of Hitler’s and the Holocaust’s worst henchmen. As for the even more ludicrous KKK references, that just reinforces our opinion that Irish America is in a state of blind ignorance. The Orange Order is a worldwide organization and has never prejudiced any man, woman or child because of their colour or race. If they are of the Reformed Protestant faith they will find a welcome in the fraternal Orange Family. On the whole I would say that roman catholic’s in Northern Ireland were treated better by the Unionists and Northern Ireland’s governments, than any Irish administration and the roman catholic church in the RoI. Go figure, if Northern Ireland was so bad why did the republicans and roman catholics in Northern Ireland never move south en-mass after partition??? They knew what side of the bread their butter was on. By the way if it wasn't for the British bailing out the Irish with billions of pounds in the recent Irish banking crises, and that includes the PULO, population of Northern Ireland, the RoI would be a basket case and bankrupt.

• bunkerhill | Jul 06, 2012, 05:06 PM EDT

  Thanks Fightin69th. It is so hot today and our computer room is air conditioned so we did look up the "Love Ulster Parade," and were shocked. As Americans we insist that the Orange Order "put their money where their mouth is." The Republic of Ireland fought for freedom from people calling themselves royal as did we in the US. Why should they have to put up with this idiotic group who chose to remain commoners in the UK? Let London celebrate their loyalty to the crown with a huge response to their parade. They have no basis whatsoever for a parade in the Republic of Ireland. And once again we want to reiterate our love for every Scottish family member as they and the Irish have the closest DNA in the world. Our Scots are kind, loving and brave. Has anyone done DNA on the OO?

• bunkerhill | Jul 06, 2012, 04:28 PM EDT

  Fightin69th are you a member of the US 69th? If so God bless you. They are and always were one of the bravest units in our country. We will look up the "Love Ulster Parade" on the internet. However we would still like to see the Orange Men march in London as they chose to be part of the UK and should be well received. It would be interesting to watch.

• Fightin69th | Jul 06, 2012, 04:09 PM EDT

  Remember the "LOVE ULSTER PARADE" in Dublin back in 2006. Not a success.

• bunkerhill | Jul 06, 2012, 03:22 PM EDT

  Apologies to Irish Central for thinking you censured a post. We both love everything Irish. However when we talked it over we thought "What is wrong with this picture?" as Americans would say. While Northern Ireland should be part of the Irish Republic it is in fact part of the UK having a belligerent planted population; the old divide and conquer mentality. Why are the Orange men not parading through the streets of London? Supposedly they chose to remain part of the UK, so they should be given a great reception in London. We would just love to see them march through London and see what kind of a reception they would receive. They would be marching through their chosen country instead of pestering the free country full of equals next door. The Orange Order are in fact commoners and possibly the royals would show up to cheer them on. Please ask them to change their march in London instead and we will all watch. I would like to add apologies to every brave, loving Scot as they are part of our family and we are part of theirs.

• snakehips | Jul 06, 2012, 03:20 PM EDT

  Really? really? This is like allowing the KKK to march down the man street in Atlanta Georgia. Lord, please let these idiots die off soon so they can burn in the Orange flames of Hell!

• sirpeter | Jul 06, 2012, 03:16 PM EDT

  RedBranch.I have no problem with anybody having a parade.I'd like to see Protestant Unionists been able to celebrate something wholesome.The Orange Order has too much bad history though.It was flawed from the start.Celebrating a Protestant victory over your neighbours by people who oppressed them in the first place and continued to do so for such along time.Can't they express some other part of their culture.Call it the Progressive Orange Order and just celebrate been Ulstermen or something.We don't really celebrate St.Patrick bringing Christianity to Ireland.We celebrate been Irish.The religious part has moved far to the background and rightly so.Everybody likes a parade and that's the main thing or is it the main thing?.Surly the Billy banners can be dropped for banners less antagonistic. And who want to listen to a parade where they tell you sorry you can't participate because of your religion.I have no time for those kind of parades and nobody else should either.Which is a pity because another holiday for everybody on the 12th of July wouldn't be a bad thing.

• RedBranch | Jul 06, 2012, 01:26 PM EDT

  Tell you what sirpeter, why don't you come up for this years 12th. I'd be glad to welcome someone travelling from the heart of the 'rebel county' to 'our wee country'!

• sirpeter | Jul 06, 2012, 12:20 PM EDT

  @citizen69.Why didn't you use Punch magazine?This PROTESTANT British weekly magazine should have been the obvious choice.To use the term American political cartoons is sweeping.Most Americans don't want to be lumped in with those.They were PROTESTANT American political cartoons.Citizen69.You're comments can be very vague at times.Also There was a strong overlap between Orange Lodges and UVF units.Who do you think you are fooling when you say it was WHOLLY condemned by the Orange Order?.A bigot doesn't change his spots.The Orange Order was born out of killing Catholics when necessary if they could get away with it.The Orange Order was founded after an incident known as the "Battle of the Diamond" 1795 in which (mostly unarmed) Catholics were killed.Its first grand master was James Sloan of Loughgall, in whose inn the victory was celebrated.And you're defending a "culture" born out of killing Catholics?.That's some celebration.At least Cynicus is on your side.lol

• citizen69 | Jul 06, 2012, 11:46 AM EDT

  The Orange Order does actually acknowledge and commemorate St Patrick's day, some with parades. You'd often see the St. Patrick saltire flown outside halls on March 17th.

• ciaradexy | Jul 06, 2012, 11:22 AM EDT

  The Orange men should march in our Paddys day parades. Our migrant groups do as do American marching bands so why shouldnt this group.

• sirpeter | Jul 06, 2012, 11:18 AM EDT

  @citizen69.The first Orange lodge was established in nearby Dyan,County Tyrone.It's first grand master was James Sloan of Loughgall,in whose inn the victory by the Peep-o'-Day Boys was celebrated.Like the Peep-o'-Day Boys, one of its goals was to hinder the efforts of Irish nationalist groups and uphold the "Protestant Ascendancy". The Orange Order's first ever marches were to celebrate the "Battle of the Boyne" and they took place on 12 July 1796 in Portadown,Lurgan and Waringstown.~Citizen69 give me one good reason why the vast majority of people living on this island should be reminded by about this crap outside their door?The OO is born out of sectarianism by a bunch of scumbags.There would be rioting all over the world if everyone was allowed to do what the OO think they have a right to do.

• LondonCeltPunk | Jul 06, 2012, 11:00 AM EDT

  i already tried to post this so apologies if it comes out twice...why do we always have to bend the knee and make concessions to these fascists.Its a disgrace to even begin to consider to allow them to march on the streets of Dublin.They belong in the dark ages.More staggering is some posters here attempt to somehow blame the Roman Catholic church or Catholics themselves for the bile and bitter hatred towards them.The next step is to say those poor unfortunates who were murdered solely because of their religion by british armed and organised murder gangs had it coming.As much as i detest them and their evil politics let them march round in circles in their own areas just keep them away from where they are not wanted...including Dublin.I ask you to re-read the Proclamation Of The Irish Republic of 1916 and then tell me we should allow these fascist scum to walk past the places where Irish men and woman gave their lives for a free Ireland of catholic, protestant and dissenter.

• citizen69 | Jul 06, 2012, 10:54 AM EDT

  @Bunkerhill: I shall look out for that documentary. Even if some of these 'warring clans' fought each other for centuries you cant tar a whole ethnic population with the same brush. The Irish wern't exactly pacifists either! They were a warrior culture also. Ireland continued as an island of warring fiefdoms long after other neighbouring lands had merged into nationhood. Ireland would probably had an empire if it wasn't for the constant fighting between tribes... I was referring to the old American political cartoons that stereotyped the Irish as violent drunken apes.

• citizen69 | Jul 06, 2012, 10:45 AM EDT

  Yes Woundedknee, there was a sickening murder of three children in Ballymoney in a sectarian arson attack in province-wide disturbances relating to the stand-off. That attack was carried out by the UVF and was wholly condemned by the Orange Order.

• cynicus | Jul 06, 2012, 10:43 AM EDT

  Such drivel! The Orangemen are as welcome to march in Dublin as Nationalists as to march in Belfast on St. Patrick's Day! And why not? Who is the bigot here? Time to grow up and stop feeding the fascists on both sides! The dissidents are outside the pale of law and order. Even the 'gone-away' Sinn Féin/IRA of old are now becoming 'respectable' despite their legacy of murder and mayhem and the bodies hidden in bogs that have not been given a decent burial. Does that not enrage your partisan senses?

• bunkerhill | Jul 06, 2012, 10:41 AM EDT

  Well my original response to citizen 69 was censored so I will try again. I saw a documentary on "The Clearances of SW Scotland," on the American discovery Channel. It was an amazingly enlightening documentary. Also we have been reading history books all our life. However we missed the one on the Irish being called unintelligent apes Citizen 69. If you will give us the name we will look it up.

• sirpeter | Jul 06, 2012, 10:24 AM EDT

  @bunkerhill.Citizen 69 said source!!!.He didn't say book.Punch magazine would be a good source for portraying the Irish badly in the 19th century though.

• bunkerhill | Jul 06, 2012, 09:56 AM EDT

  citizen 69 - We read have been reading history books for most of our long lives but the information I posted came from a documentary shown on the American "Discovery Channel." The documentary was called "The Clearances of South West Scotland," and it told the amazing story of several warring clans who had been killing each other for centuries. The feature even named the clans and told of their being deported to NI, the southern US and Australia. It went on to say that they kept their warring ways wherever they were put. I believe this documentary should be shown in the Republic of Ireland and incidentally there are "history" books on the same subject. What was wrong with these clans that made them so violent? Recent medical breakthroughs give a possible explanation, but certainly the animosity and violence should be contained. I can tell you of one friend with ancestors from SW Scotland who carried one of the names. He unwittingly returned to Scotland not knowing the family history and upon inquiring was told jokingly, "Don't say your name too loud around here. They're still looking for your guys." The Scotsmen then told our friend the history of his family which shocked him. Incidentally in what book did you read that the Irish were unintelligent apes? In all our years of reading we never came across a book like that.

• citizen69 | Jul 06, 2012, 09:54 AM EDT

  @Sirpeter: Yeah, i'm no supporter of Willie Frazer, he does go about things the wrong way. I can understand his anger though, having had four members of his family murdered by the IRA. Yes FAIR does focus on victims of Republican violence, there are also Nationalist groups that focus on victims of British violence (Relatives For Justice). Sadly, even in the common bond of death & suffering we are segregated. Regardless of that though there weren't any people carrying photo's of UVF bombers in Dublin.

• WoundedKnee | Jul 06, 2012, 09:49 AM EDT

  Citizen wants us to think of the Orange Order as some kind of troop of Folk Musicians. Maybe he'll explain the murder of three children in the Drumcree protest of 1998.

• sirpeter | Jul 06, 2012, 09:17 AM EDT

  @citizen69.But there were pics.Love(our bigots)Ulster dedicated to commemorating the Unionist victims of The Troubles in NI. This was organised in part by Willie Frazer of Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR).It has been criticised for not doing the same for victims of loyalist paramilitary organisations.Frazer had said of loyalist paramilitary prisoners that "They should never have been locked up in the first place", and that he had "a lot of time for Billy Wright."An example of this alleged attitude is the previous displaying of the picture of an UVF member who was allegedly involved,among others,in the murder of 26 people in Dublin in the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan Bombings.His picture had appeared at FAIR rallies and an organiser of the Love Ulster demonstration previously told a republican newspaper that he would NOT guarantee that images of the murder suspect would not be displayed during the demonstration.Potential trouble makers the lot of them.

• citizen69 | Jul 06, 2012, 09:14 AM EDT

  @Bunkerhill: Where did you get such a stupid characterization of the Ulster-Scots / Scots-Irish? Was it from the same idiotic source that portrays the Irish as violent, unintelligent, drunken apes?

• citizen69 | Jul 06, 2012, 08:58 AM EDT

  @Barneyjo: I do not really see why "reciprocal gestures" need to be made by the Orange Order in the Republic. There is never any trouble or contention with their parades in the jurisdiction of the RoI. Does the Irish Government call on dissident Republican to make reciprocal gestures in order to march in Dublin? In fact does anyone call on dissident Republicans to make reciprocal gestures in order to march in Belfast? As i mentioned before, the O.O. does not call for the persecution of anyone, unlike Republicans groups that call for the murder & removal of British yet they seem free to gather at will in Dublin. The problem for the Dublin Government is not their citizens who are members of the Order, their problem here lies with those who would seek to cause violence against the marchers if a Dublin parade were to take place. In fact Republicans would be shipping people down from Northern Ireland just to be offended in Dublin! I understand and agree with you remarks about Garvaghy road. To me the battle is lost and should be forgotten. Of all the Orange parades in the North less than 0.05% are contentious. I believe that wherever a suitable alternative route exists it should be taken. If there is no alternative route (as in Ardoyne)then they need to have dialogue with that community. They have been having talks with representatives in Ardoyne this week but i don't think there has been agreement yet.

• IrelandNorth | Jul 06, 2012, 07:59 AM EDT

  Only contentious Ulster/NI parades should be invited to march in any other part of Ireland, providing a useful device to make them instantaneously uncontentious. The Loyal (not royal!) Orange Order (OO) distinguish between the institutional church which styles itself the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church (HRC&AC) and individual institutionalised RC's. The HRC&AC rubber-stamped the invasion of Ireland between 1169-'71 by an Anglo-Norman King (Henry II) and the Earl of Pembroke (aka Strongbow) to 'Christianise' the wild Gaelic speaking savages. It also supported Lord Castlereagh's constitutional sleight-of-hand, the Act of Union, 1800/'01 - and the Anglo-Irish Treaty, 1920-'21 which partitioned Ireland. Can Orangeism really be so bad? I don't believe Freemasons do contentious parades. OO is failing to attract younger members, consequently risking institutional extinction. There's a difference between British subjects and their army. Two books: (1) Kiely, Benedict (1946) scholarly "Counties of Contention" Dublin: O'Brien Press, 2006 - and Jess, Mervyn (2006) impressively objective "The Orange Order" Dublin: O'Brien Press are must reads for understanding of these complex issues. Since Catholicism and Protestantism has served Ireland poorly, it's time to reembrace generic Christianity.

• citizen69 | Jul 06, 2012, 07:31 AM EDT

  @Baggie68: You are absolutely wrong, there were NO pictures of any alleged Dublin bombers carried by the marchers. That is total disinformation. I challenge you to show a photograph of this. There was plenty of media there, someone would have been many photos of it if it happened.

• Baggie68 | Jul 06, 2012, 06:43 AM EDT

  With reference to the post of citizen69 that there was an attempt to march in 2006 by victims. This is totally untrue - the marchers were carrying placards with the pictures of the men who carried out the Dublin-Monaghan Bombings [the biggest massacre of civilians carried out by the British during the Troubles].

• Realist | Jul 06, 2012, 06:27 AM EDT

  Remind me, what does the orange in the flag of the Republic of Ireland represent?

• esatdigiwank | Jul 06, 2012, 06:21 AM EDT

  Why can so many of us here be proud to be Romanist - err..I mean Catholic? Sooner that religion and Irishness are decoupled from one another, and that infernal cult are permanently debunked. Then we would not have this discourse about the Orange Dis-Order.

• mcdolan | Jul 06, 2012, 05:53 AM EDT

  It doesn't happen often, but I agree with citizen69!

• citizen69 | Jul 06, 2012, 01:39 AM EDT

  There is plenty of hate flowing on this page and none of it from the Orange Order. The Order don't call for the persecution of anyone or any religion. Make no mistake, if the Orange Lodge of Ireland were to hold a peaceful and lawful parade in Dublin, the hate and intolerance would not be coming from the parade but from the same thugs that attacked a unionist march for victims of the troubles in Dublin 2006. As i've said before there are 20 parades per year held in the republic with no problems whatsoever, so why they would need to make deals to parade in their own capital is beyond me. Unless the indication here is that Dublin city centre is for nationalists & nationalists only.

• maireadinmelb | Jul 05, 2012, 09:10 PM EDT

  LEt them march - but make sure they realise that religious racial or ethnic slurs will not be accepted. Make sure the police are there to prosecute and arrest those who breach any discrimination laws! just like at the soccer! Make them pay a bond, if no trouble return it and if trouble take all the fines etc from their!

• StevieVirginia | Jul 05, 2012, 08:50 PM EDT

  Haters gonna hate. Just ignore them. In the States we have Westboro Baptist Church, also a bunch of moronic boobs. After they are ignored for a while. They crawl back in their hole... If these idiots are peaceful, let them march.

• Paddy O | Jul 05, 2012, 07:56 PM EDT

  Let them march! Some of the comments posted here are so hateful and embarrassingly ignorant. Move on!

• seanomelb | Jul 05, 2012, 07:18 PM EDT

  Patrick I agree with your sentiments but do you not think that allowing a march under certain conditions be a way forward to a united Ireland.They cannot sing their bigoted songs in Ireland as this would contravene the religious tolerance laws.As a lifelong supporter of Irish republicanism I feel that we need to change them as the obviously cannot rise above a 300yr. old rut.

• madpadd | Jul 05, 2012, 07:14 PM EDT

  Let them march.... 'neath a rainstorm of cobble stones. Why, in Gods name, would they even think that the people of the Irish Republic would let them foul the green earth of the republic. As for becoming a part of the Commonwealth....it will never happen.

• aloistmartin | Jul 05, 2012, 07:04 PM EDT

  Tolerance and Capitalism go Hand in Hand. Progress in this direction would dictate, that Unification, is only one good Tear Jerk away. Support The Real I.R.A. Support the I.R.S.P ! Support The Páirtí Cumannach na hÉireann !

• SeamusMartin | Jul 05, 2012, 07:03 PM EDT

  In the past I thought with rules they must abide by to be civil and not tread on the sensitivities of the predominantly Catholic crowd that they should be able to march with proper entry fee. However, if what I have read here in the article is true, I see no possible redeeming reason why the ilk of that kind should be parading anywhere. Maybe a Nazi or Aryan Brotherhood Fest would be the place for those hate-mongers. I too know many Scots and find most to be fine people. If I'm not mistaken Mary Queen of Scots was Catholic.

• bunkerhill | Jul 05, 2012, 04:54 PM EDT

  From what we can see most of the Orange Order is Northern Ireland is comprised of transplanted Scots from SW Scotland. We have Scots in our extended family and can tell you truthfully they are not all alike. Most of them are kind, loving people, very close to and married in many cases to Irish people. The group transplanted into Ulster included a completely different group from SW Scotland. Look into their history. They were constantly killing each other and finally were deported to NI, the Southern USA and Australia. This particular group wherever they landed continued their murderous ways and we believe their problem is a medical one. The belligerant Scot of NI is an anomoly and not at all indicative of the Scots in general. I would ask these belligerant Scots to trace their roots in Scotland and see if they would be let back in. March in Dublin? This group couldn't get along no matter where they went. They need help and other people don't have to put up with them.

• oldboreen | Jul 05, 2012, 04:37 PM EDT

  Murph46-All the Brits leave Ireland? And the one million Irish in Britain? Should they go back to Ireland? Are you also including the 100,000 British subjects living peacefully in the Republic? Somehow I don't think you've thought this through! Oh and incidentally,I don't want the Royal Orange Order marching through Dublin!

• barneyjo | Jul 05, 2012, 04:32 PM EDT

  @citizen69 - hope and history can and WILL rhyme, but in this instance, not yet; its too soon, and will require reciprocal gestures on a par with what has already been seen in recent times. I made the point earlier about LOL District Number One; I am sure you are as aware of the importance of history to this lodge as I am. Thinking of the likes of Harold Gracy who gave up the last years of his life to occupy a caravan at Drumcree Church to hi light his belief in the right of the Lodge to march the traditional route along Garvaghey road. These are determined Brethren, even I can acknowledge that. In the last analysis though they are not bring a Dublin parade closer, but rather pushing it back in their persistent belief that they can march when and where the will. They cannot, not any more. Lodges elsewhere have reached local accommodations. Sooner or later No One district will have to do the same, and it will be to the benefit of all!!

• ProudCanadian | Jul 05, 2012, 04:21 PM EDT

  roryobrien you answered your own question. There should be no one religion better than the other, after all we are worshipping the same God, whether Catholic or Prodestant. There should be no prejudisim towards any religion.

• sparticusnorth | Jul 05, 2012, 03:46 PM EDT

  THE GREEN CARPET has been offered to the orange order, in the new ireland the nationalists in the north are going to bring on an all ireland basis to the south, as for bigots? there are more elements of bigotry up here, the first end to that must be the education system taken from the catholic church who appose the education of protestant and catholic children together, ? until this happens as the primeminister of northern ireland has been blocked by the vatican army on this issue ,who must leave the shores of ireland as the british occupation forces also,there will always be the troubles until the end of time until integrated education is given to all children , by the way there are few catholcs in ireland who dont hold to the orange orders doctines of faith no popish worship, no paedophile religious orders of unbiblical rome taking care of our children most are al la carte at best.

• chicksooze | Jul 05, 2012, 03:20 PM EDT

  These hateful disgusting bigots are not welcome in the south. Why they would want to march is beyond me, oh wait, I get it, to cause trouble, incite more hatred, riots and violence as usual. Practice it in your own backyard and stay out of ours. You won't be received very well.

• citizen69 | Jul 05, 2012, 02:22 PM EDT

  (cont.)...Bigots? Undoubtedly there are bigots within the Order to their disgrace but certainly not the whole rank and file of it's members. They also raise over £100,000 for local & internationl charities each year, and no they don't ask the religion of the people the money goes to help. People join the Lodges for many different reasons... fraternity, community, religion, culture, or whatever. Personally i'm not a big fan of the Orange Institution, I find religion a devicive force rather than a uniting one. I'm not a big fan of the Catholic church either but should the Catholic Church be banned because of it's bigoted anti-Protestant stance on mixed marriage? Where Protestants were forced to bring up their children as Catholics, which was backed up by the Republic's courts? Should the GAA be banned in NI for promoting support for the IRA and being anti-British? Next week on July 12th over half a million Protestants will be on the streets to commemorate the Battle of the Boyne and the Glorious Revolution, do you regard all those people to be bigots too? If so then it adds weight my suspicion that there will never be a united Ireland, the two peoples are irreconcilable, for obviously there is no place in your Ireland for them. It seems there is a lot of people in the south who are all for up tolerance & compromise as long as it is not them who have to do the tolerating and compromising! :-/

• citizen69 | Jul 05, 2012, 02:20 PM EDT

  Patrick Roberts, your attitude here makes a mockery of the 1916 Proclamation to "Cherish all the children of the nation equally" and the fact that the Irish Tricolour is supposedly symbolic of respect of the Orange tradition. Let's try and look at this from another point of view... the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland do parade regularly in the Republic of Ireland in the Ulster counties and as citizens of the Republic they have every right to. There are around 20 of these parades a year and, shock horror!... There is no chaos, no triumphalism, no hatred, no protests and no problems. They are left to get on with it. Irish Protestants come out to support them and Irish Catholics watch out of curiosity... No fuss, no controversy. In the south Orange halls don't get burned down and Republicans don't organize protests. It's a different story in the North where in the last 20 years or so 328 Orange hall have been burned down of seriously damaged by republican arsonists, any wonder there is antagonism and hatred? You are guilty of some of the demonizing of the Order that is so prevelent also obvious in remarks of other posters. The Orange Order are not racist, they have made no speeches or have any literature that is racist and they don't call for the death or extermination of any person or creed. Sectarian? Yes they are sectarian but then so are the Ancient Order of Hibernians, the Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic church. Any religious organization is sectarian by nature, most of them are intolerant of others...

• roryobrien | Jul 05, 2012, 02:09 PM EDT

  Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see a great deal wrong with this: Here is the oath every Orangeman signs up to when he is chosen to join: “He should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome, and scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act or ceremony of Popish worship; he should, by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy of that Church, its encroachments, and the extension of its power.” You tell me.

• eiriamach | Jul 05, 2012, 02:01 PM EDT

  pilib04, I'll take your word on that. I thought the neo-Nazi group was simply a new name for much the same membership as the old KKK in that region. 'Six of one, half a dozen of the other, as they say!

• Bantryboy | Jul 05, 2012, 01:57 PM EDT

  Let them in to Dublin, after all they are letting everyone else in and all of us Irish born and raised have to leave.

• pilib04 | Jul 05, 2012, 01:44 PM EDT

  Eiriamach, you are confused about Skokie. It wasn't the KKK, it was the Nazi's. I know there isn't a substantive difference, but the Nazi's are not the KKK. The KKK did try to march in Skoike in 2000. But the big court case and excitement was over the Nazi's in 1977. Skokie had a disproportionate number of Jewish Survivors living there at the time.

• pilib04 | Jul 05, 2012, 01:34 PM EDT

  If the OO wants to march in Dublin let them first work out an acceptable arrangement with the Lower Ormeau Residents Action Group and Garvaghey Residents Coalition. Until that happens there is nothing to discuss! I have no objecting to OO marches once the contentious marches issue is resolved. 3500 OO marches a year and only a handful are contentious.

• Irishphotograph | Jul 05, 2012, 01:24 PM EDT

  Lets get one think straight. Roman Catholicism is not Biblical Christianity and if you dont think so then you havent studied the Scriptures and what the Vatican teaches. Rome has always been the Spiritual enemy of the Irish people. With its promotion of dead religion and repetition of prayers. However! The Orange Order do not represent Biblical Christianity and they need to GO from Ireland. One Nation under GOD & have this Island once again blessed by Him. As the time after St. Patrick where the Irish people believed in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and were so richly blessed for it. Ireland was known as the Land of the Saints and Scholars. Padraig Pearse amongst other well known volunteers recognised the need for God in Ireland. My family are recorded in the 1798 Rebellion & Padraig Pearse described my ancestor John Devoy as perhaps the greatest of all Fenians. If you know Ireland then you know our roots, our Identity, is Christian. If you love Ireland then you give your life to Jesus & have another Irish man or woman praying correctly to the Creator GOD Almighty. Secularism is the enemy of Ireland and anyone older than 30yr can see the difference in our society.

• biggles008 | Jul 05, 2012, 12:57 PM EDT

  Yes, Banned,Banned,Banned,Banned.

• ProudCanadian | Jul 05, 2012, 12:43 PM EDT

  These people make me ashamed to admit that I am a Protestant(Anglican). The stupitity has to stop and allowing them to march in Dublin is a travesty. There is no need for this, they are just inciting violence. I agree whole heartedly with this article.

• Murph46 | Jul 05, 2012, 12:17 PM EDT

  I repeat,let the Orange march in Dublin only after all Britts leave Ireland!

• navan004 | Jul 05, 2012, 11:38 AM EDT

  cahalfinbarr, what the heck are you talking about?! I grew up in the north and a march in Dublin by these dingbats will only move young folks back to terrorism. We've all sung kumbya enough for a little while. Let things lie for a while.

• eiriamach | Jul 05, 2012, 11:33 AM EDT

  I used to wonder why the Ku Klux Klan wanted in the 1970s to march through Skokie, Illinois, where so many Jews who had fled the Nazis lived with their families. With a population 40% Jewish, that suburb of Chicago was at the heart of American liberalism and tolerance. When they marched through, the KKK, in the form of the neo-Nazi National Socialist Party of America, challenged the tolerance of the Skokie residents. Their challenge was "IF you ban us and censor our message, you prove that the American tradition of openness to diversity is a lie; then you're no better than bigots like us." So groups like the ACLU fought for the right of the neo-Nazis to march past the homes of American Jews while reviling Judaism, Catholicism, ethnic minorities, and foreigners. Why did the KKK want to march through Skokie? As an integrated community, Skokie is close to the core of American life; the neo-Nazis are distant, on the lunatic fringes. Keeping the neo-Nazis out would drive them even further from shared values, further into extremism and hostility. Only fools like Cardinal George of Chicago think they're free to deprive others of their freedom.

• GabrlOSullivan | Jul 05, 2012, 11:05 AM EDT

  HELLO! Have we all forgot those inflammatory songs sung during Orange parade marches? Why NOW do the Orangemen want to come to Dublin to parade? Why now do we need to lie down and say it's ok when we know it is NOT. This smacks of starting trouble in the South. Our majority is Catholic and for centuries we've be oppressed by these people, so why should we let this march go off and listen to the hatred in their songs and noise, and think it OK? I don't get it. I know the turn the other cheek business but REALLY? Times of peace are such we still REMEMBER and as long as we do NO ORANGE PARADE! Carry it on up North not in the Republic!

• cahalfinbarr | Jul 05, 2012, 10:36 AM EDT

  Amazing to see the bigotry on the catholic side. Cardinal O'Fiach would no longer be able to say that catholics are not bigoted. Drumcree was a peaceful church parade until a bigot from our side manipulated the situation. He of course still claims the right to bomb and murder in our name.

• dickmac | Jul 05, 2012, 10:13 AM EDT

  Their history is hate and bigotry. No parade.

• Beedee | Jul 05, 2012, 09:58 AM EDT

  Ludicrous. When 'Billy & Jimmy' are allowed equal rights in their own Country and people are holidaying on the moon, perhaps.................

• CitizenWhy | Jul 05, 2012, 09:58 AM EDT

  This is the perfect opportunity for the Irish government to say it is open to the idea of a Dublin Orange Order march but that it wants certain conditions met: ... 1. Apologies for the troubles it has caused the Catholic community in NI ... 2. An end to any marching provocations in NI ... 3. A change in the Orange oath to reflect tolerance for all religions or to simply not mention religion.

• hermitTalker | Jul 05, 2012, 09:54 AM EDT

  The fact they wish to march in Dublin is a positive sign. Some have attended Mass for the PSNI Catholic officer murdered by the dissidents. Much progress has been made, symbolised by the Queen's Dublin visit and the famous handshake in Belfast. As for tit for tat, rose528, there is absolutely no comparison. There are no organised Catholic bands marching to defy Protestants and keeping their kids from their schools, or marching through Protestant areas for the hatred or it. No equal tit on the part of caTATlicks

• rose528 | Jul 05, 2012, 09:32 AM EDT

  Orange is no more bigoted than the Catholics I'd say tit for tat

• rose528 | Jul 05, 2012, 09:26 AM EDT

  While I've long believed that if Ireland is ever to find true peace and reconciliation there must be mutual respect and acceptance of both traditions. But these Orange Order marches have nothing to do with reconciliation, they are all about triumphalism, about Orange supremacy and Catholic defeat, a deliberate constant reminder of who's who. I do not believe that the more enlightened Unionists support these primeval displays but, sadly, many do. The marches are counter-productive and should be banned north and south.

• barneyjo | Jul 05, 2012, 08:59 AM EDT

  @patrickroberts - stating the obvious here Patrick. However bear this in mind; the order is making its last stand on Drumcree hill outside Portadown. This is LOL district no 1, the first ever lodge formed; ie the most hardline and toughest diamonds. This lodge has left its banner at Drumcree church and say it will remain there until such times as it can march back to its lodge hall by the "traditional route" It has been there for years and will remain there for years until one of two things happen; 1)The lodge reaches an understanding with local Nationalist Residents for a parade, but that means it has to talk to them. They elect to march by a different route. So, obviously change has to be a precursor to parades anywhere that would have proven contentious previously!!

• WoundedKnee | Jul 05, 2012, 08:51 AM EDT

  Amazing! For the first time ever I agree with a Roberts article!