72 Comments

• downinthebasement | Oct 11, 2010, 03:10 PM EDT

  If the Irish love the Palestinians so much...why don't you form an Irish brigade and fight on behalf of the Palestinians... They could use your er...um...support...I am sure...

• MotherIrish | Oct 08, 2010, 11:02 AM EDT

  And one more thing regarding comments made below- I too am tired here in the US of those who take and give nothing to society. How about a 63 yr old man, working and living in public housing from before the day he was born until now and angry that his "house' is going to be torn down due to total disrepair of the apartments? Why should I support him? Welfare brood mothers are another. Pay for one on the dole, any beyond that are yours to pay for or the 'baby daddy'. Illegal immigrants - why should they get any of my hard earned money. Palestinian people have an extremely highly uneducated population due to Islam, high unemployment - one of the worlds highest - and think they need to have a dole. Let the Arab world take care of their own - and they don't for all their talk of charity.

• MotherIrish | Oct 08, 2010, 10:56 AM EDT

  Getting made at them(Jews) for fleeing Germany is like getting mad at Mexican for crossing hte boarder? Your joking I hope - there is no comparison. This is not a mixed metaphor - it is an abortion. When were 6 million Mexicans murdered? No one in their country is hunting them down. The exodus from Europe after WWII is nothing like the migration going on today. Migration from one country to another needs to be done with a legal process, and the Mexicans do not follow a legal process. You are either a bleeding heart liberal or a bit touched in the head

• hancock | Sep 20, 2010, 12:12 AM EDT

  They're left wing nuts.

• Monsoonman | Sep 19, 2010, 12:25 PM EDT

  Can anyone explain the deep rooted anti semitisim that some of Irish heritage seem to harbor? I am talking the hatred towards Jews that filters down to Israel. Was there something in our history that the Jews perpetrated on us that I am not aware of? Did they kill my uncles, my great grandpa, did they starve my ancestors, did they look the other way during the great hunger? Did they have something to do with the trail of tears? Oswald? Pearl harbor? Cromwell?...So besides being blamed for killing Jesus, will one of you Jew haters tell me explicitly why you are this way and don't include Israels existence as your justification. tia.

• maloney | Sep 13, 2010, 09:14 PM EDT

  There will be no peace in Israel as long as obama is in office. Now would be a good time for Israel to do what needs to be done in thier part of the world as the USA won't lift a finger until at least 2013. The sooner the better.

• seanomelbourne | Sep 13, 2010, 08:29 PM EDT

  Brendan I cannot believe you are under the illusion that Israel will accept a Palestinian state unless they (Israel) write the rule book. They have shown no regard for Palestinians and will never agree to a solution until the U.S.A. becomes an honest broker in negotiations with both parties. The Israelis wish to create an apartheid style solution or as the former chief Rabbi(Yusef)called on God to "strike the Palestinian people with a pestilence" praying for the demise of all Palestinians,I believe it's called a holocaust. Your agreement with Corrigan at the least appears maudlin. What do you mean by "reasonable nationalism"? We had that in Ireland with Parnell's Irish parliamentary Party" A British compliant smorgasbord of the "Irish landed gentry". Maybe Abu Mazin should be quoted Burke "Concessions of the meek are concessions of fear"

• seanomelbourne | Sep 13, 2010, 08:09 PM EDT

  I am suspicious of Corrigan,when in Australia she could only be contacted through the British high commission in Canberra or their missions in the state capitals.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 13, 2010, 12:24 PM EDT

  seanomelbourne: The two-state solution means Palestine will be "born" at some point. Ireland and Israel were born around the same time, both anciently and in modern times. You can parallel the birth of Palestine to Ireland. You can parallel the birth of Palestine to Israel. In Ireland's existential state of crisis, it does Ireland more good to identify with the Israelis than it does with the the Palestinians who are contemplating something between reasonable nationalism and wacko jihad. Ireland can be more influential with Israel as a friend. There are inconsistencies with that position that bother me, and I will work out in time and research. But right now, identifying with the Palestinians means getting all worked up for a cause that is getting too mixed up with revolutionary forces I reject. I agree with Corrigan's humanitarian advocacy on behalf of Palestinians.

• seanomelbourne | Sep 12, 2010, 11:35 PM EDT

  Careful Mman you don't choke on your dry wit have a drink, cheers.

• Monsoonman | Sep 12, 2010, 02:08 PM EDT

  A clash of liberal utopia butting heads with reality. A hertz donut.

• seanomelbourne | Sep 12, 2010, 03:19 AM EDT

  Brendan national survival of whom certainly not the Palestinian people. A little bit ethnically biased are we?

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 12, 2010, 12:01 AM EDT

  To summarize, Ireland needs to learn some things from Israel, and vice versa. Immigration is something Israel unabashedly manages as a matter of national survival.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 12, 2010, 12:00 AM EDT

  Monsoonman: It's too poor, as in, it does not have the money to pay welfare to migrants seeking residency in Ireland en masse. As in, leave Ireland out of this ridiculous open-border world they're creating. Maybe my meaning was unclear in the first sentence you quoted.

• Monsoonman | Sep 11, 2010, 09:33 PM EDT

  So brendin, what you just wrote completely, 180 degrees contradicts what you wrote previously: "Ireland is too poor, and too close to its own third world history, to become a welfare state for the craftier among the world's poor to target for settling." vs. your last: "The post offices are jam-packed with non-Irish people collecting Irish tax money".

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 11, 2010, 03:40 PM EDT

  Monsoonman: The demographic shift in my mom's hometown, for anecdotal example, is shocking and has taken place in only a few decades. The post offices are jam-packed with non-Irish people collecting Irish tax money, while my cousins and other Irish people are forced to emigrate to survive. Foreclosures are epidemic. The stats are forthcoming for an upcoming article. It is true that Ireland is a magnet for welfare-seekers, because it offers some of the best rates in the EU.

• Monsoonman | Sep 11, 2010, 12:05 PM EDT

  I tend to believe wounded knee on this subject, even though we have our differences of opinion on other subjects, on this one the facts seem to back him up. What say you brendin? Have you got any facts to back you up or are you caught red handed? Your statement of Ireland to be too poor to become a welfare state for the worlds poor, seems to be built on shifting sand.

• WoundedKnee | Sep 11, 2010, 03:19 AM EDT

  Migrants (I don't call them immigrants until they have acquired Irish citizenship) do indeed enjoy all the privileges of the very generous Irish welfare system. In fact if you are in a Post Office on Welfare Day in any Irish town (that's where and when benefits are handed out) you'll be shocked by the number of Russians, Africans, Chinese, Arabs, Pakistanis etc who are in line to pocket the Irish tax-payer's money.

• Monsoonman | Sep 11, 2010, 12:29 AM EDT

  Is what brendan kean wrote the truth? That new immigrants to ireland do not enjoy welfare state priviliges and has not become a magnet for them?

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 10, 2010, 05:17 PM EDT

  WoundedKnee: Australia's policy is skilled base, I believe. Firstly, Ireland is too poor, and too close to its own third world history, to become a welfare state for the craftier among the world's poor to target for settling.

• WoundedKnee | Sep 10, 2010, 03:46 PM EDT

  BrendanPKeane: Did I understand you correctly? You said that Ireland does not assimilate immigrants? What the hell more do you want them to do?

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 09, 2010, 03:01 PM EDT

  The fear of speaking about Ireland stems from the mistake of applying American multicultural rhetoric (and conversation rules) to an old nation like Ireland, Israel and Iceland, etc. It is not appropriate to think of Ireland or Israel in American terms.

• GeorgeDillon | Sep 09, 2010, 02:46 PM EDT

  keane, it's not worth responding to clownjoly, but in case you or anyone else is taken in by his lies, the fact is that after a certain age foreign children can seek exemption from Irish class. They don't have to, it's their (parents') choice; they could enroll in Irish class and in a couple of years they might be more fluent than the Irish children. But almost NO foreign child chooses to take irish! They avoid it. Yet they jump at the chance to learn French, Spanish or whatever. it's the same with foreign adults. A friend of mine who teaches at the Academic Francaise in Dublin tells me they are flooded with foreigners studying French there. Yet there are virtually no foreign adults taking Irish classes in Ireland, though the language is increasingly popular with Irish adults. That tells us that foreign immigrants are in Ireland for the money (or the welfare!) and have no interest in the country's ancient culture. You won't hear these facts from clownjoly and the other racist liars who post here in favor of the settlement of Ireland by foreigners.

• GeorgeDillon | Sep 09, 2010, 02:39 PM EDT

  Keane--you ask Conjoly's name. It's actually Clownjoly. His effort to "correct" you on emigrate/immigrate was truly puerile. On a more important point, Keane, as part of your research you ought to check out all the public opinion polls that have been done in Ireland in the past years. They concur in showing a very clear trend--about 70% of the people are not happy with the Open Door immigration "policy" imposed on them by the corrupt vermin of conjoly's buddies in the Fianna Fail party. Of course the figure is probably nearer 80%, as it was when the Irish refined their citizenship laws to discourage anchor births, because quite a few people are afraid to speak their mind on this issue.

• GeorgeDillon | Sep 09, 2010, 02:33 PM EDT

  No, conjoly, YOU are the liar, because you implied that those who oppose the crazy Irish Open Door immigration policy--perhaps the most lax in the world--"all live outside Ireland and have done for some time." I won't let you get away with that lie, because some folks might believe it. The facts are clear--all pubic opinion surveys in ireland show that the majority of the people do NOT support their country being settled by foreigners. Why would they? It is a totally pathological process--no sane nation willingly relinquishes its (small) territory to foreign settlers. Only self-hating idiots like conjoly would think it a good idea. What part of your genetic endowment is so bad, conjoly, that you want it to be eliminated? The Irish people have as much say in the current Plantation as they did in the Plantations of the Seventeenth century i.e zero. It's conjoly who is the weirdo, out of step with the great majority of irish people. It was conjoly's buddies in the corrupt Fianna Fail party and the Irish capitalist and landlord class who hatched the idea to settle ireland with foreigners. As to your stupid claim to speak Irish, conjoly, I'll bet my Social Security that you can't rub two words together in the language. And as to your suggestion that I don't speak Irish, you're a stupid buffoon. As it happens I have forgotten more irish than you'll ever know, a bhastar amaideach. Give us some of your racist garbage in irish next time, a chladhaire clownjoly, you're a bigot and a hypocrite. Tu fein agus do chaca Fianna Fail.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 09, 2010, 12:34 PM EDT

  For clarification on what I'm arguing, emigration to Ireland is a good thing if it fills skilled job needs, and when Irish people marry others and bring them into Irish communities. I have nothing against inter-marriage or skilled emigrants becoming permanent immigrants. I do recognize, however, that the global tactic of elites is to encourage low skill cheap labor en masse so that native (Irish in this case) are out-competed and demand less entitlement. Ireland is also a tiny tiny country with a tiny tiny population. It is not a new world destination for huddled masses. American rhetoric is not appropriate for Ireland. Ireland has a different raison d'etre than has America. Australia's immigration policy is sane, and would be a good model for Ireland, perhaps. I'm researching these issues still. The issues are not as black and white as Conjoly would make them out to be, of that I am sure.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 09, 2010, 12:15 PM EDT

  conjoly: An emigrant leaves their land to live in another country. The person emigrating to another country is an emigrant. You can use the term as I did to emphasize that they have left somewhere and have a quasi-status in Ireland, which was why I used the term. It surprises me that you made such a show of yourself over one little word. What is your real name please?

• Conjoly | Sep 09, 2010, 11:54 AM EDT

  Well, firstly the term 'emigrants to Ireland' is a misnomer. I assume you mean 'immigrants to Ireland' - leaving that aside, you have completely misread (or perhaps more accurately, sought not to understand) my views. Your lack of rigour is astounding for one who is presumably paid to contribute to this site. For example, 'Exempting emigrants (sic) to Ireland from the requirement to participate in Irish class is not assimilation' On what basis do you claim that the children of immigrants are exempted from Irish class? Perhaps those who have joined the curriculum mid way through the year or those who have missed several years of Irish study such that they are far behind their peers are exempted (to force them to take Irish language exams at that point would be tantamount to discrimination), but if you are the child of an immigrant to Ireland and start the school the same as anyone else your age, you must study the languages and subjects that are compulsory. Same as anyone else. Is this really the basis of your overblown claims? You say that the HRC and the EU are mulling a censure of Ireland for it's treatment of immigrants. Well,lLet's let's see what happens - but I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you. As for your bizarre comment that my comments are (and the description itself is weird) 'hate-Irish' - on what exactly do you base it? Actually your opinion on my Irishness means zip. I AM Irish no matter what your opinion on my views or on how I behave - no mater whether I speak Irish (which I do and which GeorgeDillion et al do not) and no matter if my pastimes and activities conform with their view of how 'the Irish' behave. In any case, I will no longer disturb your surreal world of irrelevant comment and unworldly opinion because I'll no longer waste my time reading the claptrap that poses for journalism on this blog.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 09, 2010, 08:41 AM EDT

  conversant participant would have worked

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 09, 2010, 08:40 AM EDT

  I seem to have made up a word: conversant. (Sounds better than conversationalist, which is the meaning I was going-for).

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 09, 2010, 08:38 AM EDT

  Conjoly: Exempting emigrants to Ireland from the requirement to participate in Irish class is not assimilation. That is common practice. Creating a quasi-legal status for foreigners, whereby their children are not citizens creates a non-assimilated class of people. Ireland's neglectful approach to immigrant status will be resolved by international bodies, as the HRC and EU is determined to make precedent. Ridicule is not intelligent, and you are the biggest proponent of that tactic in this discussion. But I trust you are frustrated by comments, and feel you're position is unassailable. That is a common conceit. I'm just waiting to hear from you something that is not hate-Irish based, and loftily dismissive of those comments you have decided to grade like a teacher, rather than engage like a conversant.

• Conjoly | Sep 08, 2010, 10:13 PM EDT

  Brendan, who qualifies you and on what basis do you make the sweeping claim that 'The Irish don't even try to assimilate the non-nationals' Do you have anything other than a few articles in newspapers or chats with your acquaintances in Ireland to make this claim? Your own comments are as without provable foundation and based on nothing more than pure and ill-informed opinion as many of the comments posted on this blog. Far from 'debate' as some of your commentators bleat about below, the contributions on this site are barely above the idiotic comments of a few drunks at a bar.

• Conjoly | Sep 08, 2010, 07:54 PM EDT

  Sorry Brendan, the level of commentary on here is ridiculous - it warrants ridicule.

• CitizenWhy | Sep 08, 2010, 01:20 PM EDT

  Too much of Bernard Shaw's comment: "The Irish are a fair people; they never speak well of each other." That would include Shaw to, since he was quite adamant about being Irish, not English. ... I think it is a big mistake to emphasize the Famine without emphasing how the Irsh used this tragedy and humilaition to form the Land League and other institutions (such as the GAA) to prepare the nation for the pride needed to win independence. Ireland would have been better under a long term presidency of Michael Collins than what it got but the 70n years after the famine tell a proud story.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 08, 2010, 01:08 PM EDT

  "Conjoly": you're always anonymously commenting by insulting your fellow commentators. Stick to ideas if you have any to share. Irish people live all over the world. They are not required to renounce an interest in Ireland upon leaving. It's an interesting subject, and it's fine for people to talk about it, despite your rules against those who can and can not.

• WoundedKnee | Sep 08, 2010, 01:05 PM EDT

  BrendanPKeane: You're right to show up these posters like MavisPike as racist losers who hate their own nation. As Dillon pointed out, they represent a minority view in ireland, mostly tjhe slum landlords and store owners who have got rich off the foreigners' cheap labor But you're wrong to say "The Irish put up with immigration because they believe the immigrants will not be granted citizenship". My understanding is that Ireland is one of the laxest countries in the world as regards granting citizenship. Stay in Ireland a couple of yerars, don't rape or murder anyone, and hey!--you're an Irishman!

• WoundedKnee | Sep 08, 2010, 01:00 PM EDT

  MavisPike: Don't forget to close the door as you leave!

• Conjoly | Sep 08, 2010, 12:14 PM EDT

  Mavis don't worry. It's the same old losers each time, who by the tenor of their comments all live outside Ireland and have done for some time. They clearly also have a LOT of time on their hands... hnmmnn

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 08, 2010, 09:12 AM EDT

  The Irish don't even try to assimilate the non-nationals. They let them sit in the back of Irish classes, exempt, confused, and in contempt of Ireland's restoration project. The quasi-status offered refugees will not hold-up in international courts down the road.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 08, 2010, 09:11 AM EDT

  MavisPike: The Irish are not numerous enough to maintain democratic institutions with unfettered immigration. Immigration to fill skilled labor jobs is good. Unlimited intermarriage is good. Unskilled refugees without citizenship might seem good now, but when someone like Hillary Clinton brings Ireland before the Human Rights Commission, the UN will demand that Ireland's "fix" be reversed. The Irish put up with immigration because they believe the immigrants will not be granted citizenship. The quasi-status won't stand-up in the UN. They are creating the precedents there that will undermine all existing citizenship requirements. When that happens, Ireland's "non-citizes" will exert their rights and win power in Ireland's institutions democratically. Blue shirts were aligned with the fascist corporations, as those who allowed unskilled immigrants to migrate are so aligned. The Irish ruling class wants the Irish laboring classes to compete for shittier wages. The Irish elite feel the native Irish are too entitled. MavisPike's arguments against Ireland's "monoculture" are hateful, and misrepresent the complexity of Irish society and culture. He's one step away from adopting the racial language of American commentators who would boil us all down into skin types and economic units.

• MavisPike | Sep 08, 2010, 08:04 AM EDT

  The hostility towards immigration here is profoundly depressing. It's like wandering into a discussion on the fascist British National Party's site. Nobody is "colonising" the country. The mix of nationalities makes the country a great deal vibrant than the grim monocultural backwater it was 20 years ago. Anyway, I've had enough with this neo-blueshirt claptrap. Farewell.

• WoundedKnee | Sep 08, 2010, 07:48 AM EDT

  I am sure some foreign immigrants in Ireland receive discourteous or hostile treatment from some Irish people. That's pretty inevitable--remember that the Irish people never invited these migrants to their country. No one sought the people's assent--the immigration project was cooked up by the politicians and the wealthy, with the connivance of a lazy media and university sector, who successfully tried to prevent any expression of doubt. So it's understandable that many Irish people are frustrated as they see wave after wave of foreigners colonizing their country. But remember that the offical ideology of the state is that the foreign migrants are welcome and needed. Indeed, as we see from some Irish posters here, the ideology goes as far as suggesting that there was something deficient about the Irish, and that they needed to be supplemented by people who were smarter, more honest, harder working, better-looking etc than they. It's a new version of the old colonial inferiority complex. In fact. it's racism.

• seanomelbourne | Sep 08, 2010, 12:04 AM EDT

  Brendan I generally agree with the thrust of your argument.But I would prefer if you say "some Irish" maybe that's what you mean to say i dunno.Some Irish feel unsure and negative embarrassed in foreign lands because they were made to feel inferior.And I would say that foreign immigrants to Ireland would feel the same and made to feel inferior.It's probably a human condition.

• seanomelbourne | Sep 07, 2010, 11:54 PM EDT

  DennisQ unfortunately a good number of Irish who celebrate St.Pats day have a use by date of 1 day (plastic Irish) who want to be seen with the masses,donning their stupid headgear,pis-sed and the world looking back at them shouting "typical Irish". It makes it difficult to present ourselves as a proud and independent people.You would not see them at an Irish cultural event 364 days of the year.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 07, 2010, 10:19 PM EDT

  seanomelbourne: The culture is much richer than the history of colonial poverty, and uniquely older too. Irish don't recognize the opportunity they have in having these enviable roots. If the Irish would just show respect to their native culturistas, it would be a revolution. It's the knee-jerk poo-pooing on Irish culture and language that is so dangerous. The Irish feel obligated to belittle their own selfhood. It's partly why Irish people seem so nervous and unsure of themselves--apologetic. Couple that with unchecked demographic change, and Ireland as a nation is in existential crisis that goes beyond poverty. Irish identity was scrapped to create the neutral economic Irishman for the fake Celtic Tiger economy. But it was all fake. The Celtic Tiger gobbled up Irish property and identity. Now a homeless people have no more claim to their inheritance (Ireland) than any other refugee demanding residency in the economic unit called Ireland.

• DennisQ | Sep 07, 2010, 08:29 PM EDT

  I wouldn't call the Irish "broke-ass white trash." I'll go with broke-ass but not with white trash. Speak for yourself! Over the centuries the Irish have endured many lean years, but as the songs says, their spirits were bruised, never broken. But as far as white trash is concerned, you don't speak for me.
  
  In the worst of times, the Irish were able at least to enjoy each other's company. Despite what others may have said about us, we kept our heads high. Take the origins of the St. Patrick's Day parade as an example. As broke-ass as those people were, they wanted to show the world they were proud to be Irish. That spirit has not diminished regardless of how many Celtic tigers up and die on us.
  
  Más tiarna tire, diúc nó ri thú,
  Ní rachaidh pingin leat is tu ag dul faoin bhfód . . .
  

• seanomelbourne | Sep 07, 2010, 06:40 PM EDT

  I was in Dublin (2005) looking for "Dublin in the rare old times" I could not find it thank God, as Dublin of the fifties and sixties was steeped in poverty,still dragging it's heels out of English oppression and civil war. I saw a vibrant modern and richer city,but it came with a cost a modernization which sapped the Celtic soul.Brendan I have not come across hatred of Irish Americans in my travels. AS a typical Irishman I have a large number of cousins in the USA and find them proud of their Irish ancestry more so than some native Irish people I know. There will always be Irish people with a cultural cringe of all things Irish.

• AlexBreathnach | Sep 07, 2010, 05:02 PM EDT

  Excellent comment Dennis Q.I sure hope Zionism is in its last days but with AIPAC as strong as it is it would seem unlikely.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 07, 2010, 02:56 PM EDT

  GeorgeDillon: They don't produce demographic studies. I can't find accurate statistics on the phenomenon whereby Dublin and Ireland have been transformed into a "new world" for the "tired, the poor and huddled masses yearning" to collect Irish welfare payments.

• GeorgeDillon | Sep 07, 2010, 02:45 PM EDT

  Well said, Keane. I am convinced that the reason the Irish are so passive in the face of government by frauds and gangsters (that means clownjoly's Fianna Fail party) is because there is no longer any sense of social or national solidarity. How can you act as one people when there no longer is one people? How can a Dubliner have any self-esteem when the entire center of his native city has been taken over by foreign settlers? Globalization and cutthroat capitalism has broken the back of Ireland. Worse, it has destroyed the people's fighting spirit.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 07, 2010, 01:16 PM EDT

  The Irish in Ireland are becoming broke-ass "white trash," because they have replaced selfhood with Hollywood. The tipping point will be a measure of foreclosures. The disinheritance of Irish heritage is what lets evictions post-Celtic Tiger to happen. In ICEland, they fought back, because the ICElanders still have selfhood, they still understand national self-interest. Iceland is no backward navel-gazer. Iceland has retained dignity (selfhood)enough to fight the looting of their country. They have a cosmopolitan culture rooted in Icelandic identity. Ireland is much too smug to do the same, because the typical Irish person is no better than any fat American TV-gazing for instructions on how to react.

• Conjoly | Sep 07, 2010, 12:37 PM EDT

  Hurrah for MavisPike! :-)

• GeorgeDillon | Sep 07, 2010, 12:32 PM EDT

  Keane, I think your invocation of the notion of "self-hating Irish" is apposite here. We have a case right in front of us on this page, the poster MavisPike. This person's bigotry and hatred fairly drips from his/her posts. Notice the vast generalization about Irish Americans--I won't quote the garbage. Bigotry, as usual, based on ignorance and a narrow mind. And of course more self-hating--s/he fawns on foreign migrant workers in Ireland and makes the inane suggestion that they are "more Irish". How can they be "Irish", MavisPike, what the hell right do you have to take away their nationality? A Pole loses his heritage and culture because he goes to live next door to you in Tallaght? (Of course he won't learn much Irish culture from his neighbor in that case!) And in what way are they Irish? Do they make an effort to study Irish history? Play Irish music? Take Irish/Gaelic language classes? No, all my contacts in Ireland tell me, on the contrary, that foreign migrants have not the slightest interest in an indigenous Irish culture or its history. Indeed most migrants openly state that they came to Ireland because they saw it as part of Anglo America. It's worse, some even admit they did not know that Ireland and Britain were two different countries! (I doubt if MavisPike will set them right on that one). A cousin of mine tells me of a conversation with a quite intelligent Latvian woman who had been in Ireland two years, in which it emerged that the Latvian did not even know that there was such a thing as an Irish language!

• Edinboron | Sep 07, 2010, 10:53 AM EDT

  The Irish and Palestinians are both victims of the British compulsion to create borders and then give away land that never belonged to them to people that don't belong. Are there any dual passport Irish-Americans in prison for spying and selling secrets to Ireland? How about Israelis? Why, yes! There are Israelis who have used their position to spy on America. Does Ireland assume a bellicose and belligerent posture with neighboring countries and then expect the US to bail them out? Does Israel? Yes! Does Ireland have a secret nuclear program in violation of international law? The Israelis did do a good job of reviving Hebrew and making it a living language again.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 07, 2010, 09:25 AM EDT

  GeorgeDillon: The recently former president of Dublin City University Ferdinand von Prondzynski has given speeches stating that Ireland's native population will become a minority in Ireland in 20 (?) years. He thought this a good thing for the economy in Ireland.

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 07, 2010, 09:13 AM EDT

  seanomelbourne: The Irish claim to Ireland is based on the historic Irish nation. I hope youre right, but self-hating Irish will kill Ireland by their unfounded need to associate Irishness with some bar in Boston they visited in the 1980s. The Irish people that hate Irish Americans do so, because they ARE Irish Americans, and hate is all they have to make that distinction.

• MavisPike | Sep 07, 2010, 07:02 AM EDT

  I did not criticise the Irish for not being into cricket. I criticised this site for ignoring one Irishman's achievement in that game. I don't know where you got the notion that I dislike hurling. The only comment I have made here on that subject was to correct one blogger when he said that Croke Park played host to "Curling" -- a fairly typical example of Irish Central in action. I hugely welcome the arrival of other communities into this country. Irishness -- insofar as such a thing matters -- is not about the colour of your skin or the timbre of your accent. My Polish and Spanish neighbours, connnected as they are to the modern nation, are more "Irish" than all of the sentimental, third-generation Plastic Paddies spouting racist, Anglophobic tripe in Woodside or South Boston.

• seanomelbourne | Sep 07, 2010, 01:44 AM EDT

  An interesting discourse Brendan,But I believe history is not in your favour. The Irish have held onto their individuality for over 2000 years and 800yrs of English oppression has not dampened our Irish psyche. I do agree however that successive Irish governments have failed in our education system to teach Irish and return our language to it's rightful place as the day to day spoken word. I think your analogy with Israel a little tenuous, but with some merit.In summing up I believe the Irish culture will prevail.On a sadder note I don't understand why you have been vilified by some writers on this site, as your article is not of a contentious nature. I was educated in a Gaelic speaking school, but now live in Australia. Mise le meas a chara.

• GeorgeDillon | Sep 07, 2010, 01:35 AM EDT

  Keane, if I remember correctly, this poster MavisPike posted a while back criticizing the Irish for not being into cricket. MavisPike must have been fuming in Sunday when 80k attended the Hurling Championship in Dublin. How many paid to see your cricket match, MavisPike?

• GeorgeDillon | Sep 07, 2010, 01:31 AM EDT

  MavisPike: What an absurd post from you. Keane makes the very accurate point that Irish people have little interest in their own national language (many of them hate it) and traditional cultural expressions. Yet you turn that into some nightmare you still have two or three decades after you lived in NYC. You're living in the past--get over it. The 1980s are gone forever, but Ireland's assimilation into Anglo-America continues. It's no longer even an interesting country to visit, even the young people try to ape California accents. B-o-r-i-n-g- ----Like You, Mavis! And as to it being "our own country", no it isn't. You're giving it away to Romanians, Africans, Chinese, Poles, Indians, Pakistans etc. etc. In a couple of decades the Irish will be an ethnic minority in their own traditional homeland, a minority without a country and without a culture. That's how stupid the Irish are--they give away their own country.

• DennisQ | Sep 07, 2010, 01:18 AM EDT

  Zionism is in its last days, because it relies on ethnic cleansing to survive. There's no reason for American taxpayers to continue to prop up a system that we would otherwise stoutly oppose.
  
  American Jews, who are already embarrassed at how thuggish Israel has become, will lead a movement for constructive disengagement from that country. Soon to follow will be the lavish subsidy, and soon after that, America will stop providing carte blance political support.
  
  It's inevitable because right wingers and Jews can't sustain a marriage of convenience - they don't belong together at all. If it's gotten to the point that Israel depends on the good will of people who regularly watch Fox News - and it has - it's only a matter of time before some defining issue forces a separation. Israel's options are already dwindling. Why are we giving them $3 billion a year? Do they do anything for us besides keep us supplied with enemies?

• AlexBreathnach | Sep 06, 2010, 11:11 PM EDT

  What a load of babble

• Southernpride | Sep 06, 2010, 09:26 PM EDT

  Keane is a weak minded victim who cries into the guinness every night

• BrendanPKeane | Sep 06, 2010, 07:44 PM EDT

  As a matter of clarification: I'm Irish American literally, in that I have a passport from both countries. I am a citizen of both Ireland and the United States, like lots of Israelis and Jewish Americans. It's not some fantasy I wish for. It's a burden I live-up to.

• AlunPalmer | Sep 06, 2010, 07:03 PM EDT

  I'm not sure whether ethnic Irish in other countries will remain distinct forever, but in Ireland itself I have no doubt of it whatever. I don't think all the English-speaking Irish will ever return to Irish Gaelic as their mother tongue, but look at all the wealth of Irish literature and folk songs in the English langauge. Ireland is committed to it's own culture, it's just that much of it is no longer in Irish. At the same time, in the Gaeltacht they are singing Irish language versions of American country and western! As they say in America, it's all good!

• IrishAndProud | Sep 06, 2010, 06:51 PM EDT

  Another BTW...we all have our gripes as to how our tax dollars get spent; there's always something that one or another of us won't like. Any one of us can come up with things we don't want our money used for...so we could all go back and forth on that all day, I'm sure.

• IrishAndProud | Sep 06, 2010, 06:48 PM EDT

  Brendan, you haven't a clue. Comparing the Jews leaving Europe (what was left of them) after the Nazi Holocaust to illegal Mexicans fence-hopping into the U.S. is an insult to the memory of Holocaust victims (Jewish or othewise). They have nothing to do with each other, and only a leftist history revisionist such as yourself could possibly bite into something that tasteless. Come on, Brendan. You can do better than that. BTW the only reason the USA pours such money into Israel is because the majority of the American people are pro-Israel...and not -- I repeat, NOT -- aligned with some of the leftist slobber present on these pages, regarding the Jews. Tough bounce, but that's the way it is.

• MavisPike | Sep 06, 2010, 05:10 PM EDT

  "I wish Ireland were more committed to its language and culture, the way Israel is so committed, because, of the two people, the Irish seem the less likely to survive the future as a distinct people" Yeah, thanks for that, Violin-boy. We always appreciate a lecture from Americans on how to behave in our own country. I recall, when I lived in New York in 1988, meeting endless "Irish" Americans who felt I wasn't properly Irish because I refused to support the IRA's murderous campaign. That was one of the reasons I stayed as far away as possible from their awful shamrock-bedecked bars.

• Monsoonman | Sep 06, 2010, 05:08 PM EDT

  Georgedillon(matt?)? I'm calling you out! High noon in front of Miss Kittys saloon...Oh be armed with a fact or two, like exactly why you say my post is garbage, because you certainly didn't prove it with that numbskullian post of yours, in fact you supported my post, ya idjit.

• GeorgeDillon | Sep 06, 2010, 01:16 PM EDT

  Monsoonman, more garbage from you. The reason the US pours money into propping up the corrupt Egyptian dictator (seems a long time since Bush and the NeoCons were yelping about bringing democracy to the Middle East) is precisely to shore up Israel's position. The Egyptian dictator even aids and abets the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

• Monsoonman | Sep 06, 2010, 12:52 PM EDT

  Keane: Sorry to burst your bubble, but you need a bit of balance when you write your hit pieces. In your normal slant, you forgot to mention that America pours the same amt. of aid to Egypt every year too, to prop up that government. Remember that was the deal when carter bribed israel and egypt to sign the peace treaty, (that's what got sadat killed) strange you seem to overlook that point...but carry on!

• hancock | Sep 06, 2010, 12:41 PM EDT

  I wish the Irish cared as much about non-Jew/Arabs who are about a hundred miles up the dual carriageway.