Understanding Zionism through "smiling Irish eyes" in America
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2010 at 01:18 PM
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President Obama's choice of George Mitchell to ump the Israel/Palestine peace talks draws on Irish lessons for the Middle East.
The choice of Mitchell means Irish people are going to feel that the Middle East Peace Process is somehow their business too. [Irish Americans already feel that way, because of the American tax waterfall that pours into Israel each year.]
With the Irish involved on the outside looking-in, you'll see more Flotillas teeming with angry Irish mothers demanding medicine for the Palestinians.
One can imagine blushing Israeli soldiers with ears ringing after a good scolding from Nobel Prize winner Mairéad Corrigan.
That's why the Flotillas happen, so the press in America will react, and something can get-done by the leverage of public outrage.
Irish Americans and Jewish Americans get compared in all this, because it's about the "pull" we have in America.
Irish Americans are accused of doing for Ireland what Jewish Americans do for Israel. We are accused of meddling from arm chairs on behalf of a delusional romance.
With Mitchell and Clinton pulling an Irish déjà vu in Jerusalem, there is the temptation to continue comparing the Zionist cause in America and the Irish cause here. And there is the temptation to contrast them.
The Irish and Jews have been comparing each other to each other ever since the hordes of us started coming to the Emerald City.
The romances of Ireland and Israel have long been woven together in America, especially in New York, where the secularization of Jews and Catholics produced a kind of post-religious "typical New Yorker."
Or as Lenny Bruce put it "If you live in New York, even if you're Catholic, you're Jewish."
Despite hard-core assimilation, the Irish have continued to feel about Ireland, the way the Jews feel about Israel.
When the Irish American is tempted to identify with the Palestinians, it's the same way the Jewish American identifies with the Palestinians.
Through the riling eyes of Palestinians, Jewish and Irish American liberals can see Jewish migration from Europe to Palestine as a great injustice that dislocated native Palestinians from their land without compensation. The most vocal advocates of that interpretation are often morally-focused (self-critical) Jewish Americans.
But the Jewish exodus from Europe after World War II is also like modern mass migration today--normal and acceptable everywhere. It's hard to get outraged at Jews for migrating, when everyone does it. Getting mad at them for fleeing Germany, is like getting mad at Mexicans for crossing the border.
Israelis understand that a nation-state is a tool of survival for a tiny people in a planet of huge institutions.
If a people cannot have a homeland for themselves, they cannot steer their own destiny.
In that way, I wish Ireland were more committed to its language and culture, the way Israel is so committed, because, of the two people, the Irish seem the less likely to survive the future as a distinct people.
72 comments
Monsoonman | Sep 11, 2010, 12:05 PM EDT
I tend to believe wounded knee on this subject, even though we have our differences of opinion on other subjects, on this one the facts seem to back him up. What say you brendin? Have you got any facts to back you up or are you caught red handed? Your statement of Ireland to be too poor to become a welfare state for the worlds poor, seems to be built on shifting sand.
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WoundedKnee | Sep 11, 2010, 03:19 AM EDT
Migrants (I don't call them immigrants until they have acquired Irish citizenship) do indeed enjoy all the privileges of the very generous Irish welfare system. In fact if you are in a Post Office on Welfare Day in any Irish town (that's where and when benefits are handed out) you'll be shocked by the number of Russians, Africans, Chinese, Arabs, Pakistanis etc who are in line to pocket the Irish tax-payer's money.
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Monsoonman | Sep 11, 2010, 12:29 AM EDT
Is what brendan kean wrote the truth? That new immigrants to ireland do not enjoy welfare state priviliges and has not become a magnet for them?
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BrendanPKeane | Sep 10, 2010, 05:17 PM EDT
WoundedKnee: Australia's policy is skilled base, I believe. Firstly, Ireland is too poor, and too close to its own third world history, to become a welfare state for the craftier among the world's poor to target for settling.
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WoundedKnee | Sep 10, 2010, 03:46 PM EDT
BrendanPKeane: Did I understand you correctly? You said that Ireland does not assimilate immigrants? What the hell more do you want them to do?
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BrendanPKeane | Sep 09, 2010, 03:01 PM EDT
The fear of speaking about Ireland stems from the mistake of applying American multicultural rhetoric (and conversation rules) to an old nation like Ireland, Israel and Iceland, etc. It is not appropriate to think of Ireland or Israel in American terms.
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GeorgeDillon | Sep 09, 2010, 02:46 PM EDT
keane, it's not worth responding to clownjoly, but in case you or anyone else is taken in by his lies, the fact is that after a certain age foreign children can seek exemption from Irish class. They don't have to, it's their (parents') choice; they could enroll in Irish class and in a couple of years they might be more fluent than the Irish children. But almost NO foreign child chooses to take irish! They avoid it. Yet they jump at the chance to learn French, Spanish or whatever. it's the same with foreign adults. A friend of mine who teaches at the Academic Francaise in Dublin tells me they are flooded with foreigners studying French there. Yet there are virtually no foreign adults taking Irish classes in Ireland, though the language is increasingly popular with Irish adults. That tells us that foreign immigrants are in Ireland for the money (or the welfare!) and have no interest in the country's ancient culture. You won't hear these facts from clownjoly and the other racist liars who post here in favor of the settlement of Ireland by foreigners.
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GeorgeDillon | Sep 09, 2010, 02:39 PM EDT
Keane--you ask Conjoly's name. It's actually Clownjoly. His effort to "correct" you on emigrate/immigrate was truly puerile. On a more important point, Keane, as part of your research you ought to check out all the public opinion polls that have been done in Ireland in the past years. They concur in showing a very clear trend--about 70% of the people are not happy with the Open Door immigration "policy" imposed on them by the corrupt vermin of conjoly's buddies in the Fianna Fail party. Of course the figure is probably nearer 80%, as it was when the Irish refined their citizenship laws to discourage anchor births, because quite a few people are afraid to speak their mind on this issue.
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GeorgeDillon | Sep 09, 2010, 02:33 PM EDT
No, conjoly, YOU are the liar, because you implied that those who oppose the crazy Irish Open Door immigration policy--perhaps the most lax in the world--"all live outside Ireland and have done for some time." I won't let you get away with that lie, because some folks might believe it. The facts are clear--all pubic opinion surveys in ireland show that the majority of the people do NOT support their country being settled by foreigners. Why would they? It is a totally pathological process--no sane nation willingly relinquishes its (small) territory to foreign settlers. Only self-hating idiots like conjoly would think it a good idea. What part of your genetic endowment is so bad, conjoly, that you want it to be eliminated? The Irish people have as much say in the current Plantation as they did in the Plantations of the Seventeenth century i.e zero. It's conjoly who is the weirdo, out of step with the great majority of irish people. It was conjoly's buddies in the corrupt Fianna Fail party and the Irish capitalist and landlord class who hatched the idea to settle ireland with foreigners. As to your stupid claim to speak Irish, conjoly, I'll bet my Social Security that you can't rub two words together in the language. And as to your suggestion that I don't speak Irish, you're a stupid buffoon. As it happens I have forgotten more irish than you'll ever know, a bhastar amaideach. Give us some of your racist garbage in irish next time, a chladhaire clownjoly, you're a bigot and a hypocrite. Tu fein agus do chaca Fianna Fail.
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BrendanPKeane | Sep 09, 2010, 12:34 PM EDT
For clarification on what I'm arguing, emigration to Ireland is a good thing if it fills skilled job needs, and when Irish people marry others and bring them into Irish communities. I have nothing against inter-marriage or skilled emigrants becoming permanent immigrants. I do recognize, however, that the global tactic of elites is to encourage low skill cheap labor en masse so that native (Irish in this case) are out-competed and demand less entitlement. Ireland is also a tiny tiny country with a tiny tiny population. It is not a new world destination for huddled masses. American rhetoric is not appropriate for Ireland. Ireland has a different raison d'etre than has America. Australia's immigration policy is sane, and would be a good model for Ireland, perhaps. I'm researching these issues still. The issues are not as black and white as Conjoly would make them out to be, of that I am sure.
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BrendanPKeane | Sep 09, 2010, 12:15 PM EDT
conjoly: An emigrant leaves their land to live in another country. The person emigrating to another country is an emigrant. You can use the term as I did to emphasize that they have left somewhere and have a quasi-status in Ireland, which was why I used the term. It surprises me that you made such a show of yourself over one little word. What is your real name please?
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Conjoly | Sep 09, 2010, 11:54 AM EDT
Well, firstly the term 'emigrants to Ireland' is a misnomer. I assume you mean 'immigrants to Ireland' - leaving that aside, you have completely misread (or perhaps more accurately, sought not to understand) my views. Your lack of rigour is astounding for one who is presumably paid to contribute to this site. For example, 'Exempting emigrants (sic) to Ireland from the requirement to participate in Irish class is not assimilation' On what basis do you claim that the children of immigrants are exempted from Irish class? Perhaps those who have joined the curriculum mid way through the year or those who have missed several years of Irish study such that they are far behind their peers are exempted (to force them to take Irish language exams at that point would be tantamount to discrimination), but if you are the child of an immigrant to Ireland and start the school the same as anyone else your age, you must study the languages and subjects that are compulsory. Same as anyone else. Is this really the basis of your overblown claims? You say that the HRC and the EU are mulling a censure of Ireland for it's treatment of immigrants. Well,lLet's let's see what happens - but I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you.
As for your bizarre comment that my comments are (and the description itself is weird) 'hate-Irish' - on what exactly do you base it? Actually your opinion on my Irishness means zip. I AM Irish no matter what your opinion on my views or on how I behave - no mater whether I speak Irish (which I do and which GeorgeDillion et al do not) and no matter if my pastimes and activities conform with their view of how 'the Irish' behave.
In any case, I will no longer disturb your surreal world of irrelevant comment and unworldly opinion because I'll no longer waste my time reading the claptrap that poses for journalism on this blog.
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BrendanPKeane | Sep 09, 2010, 08:41 AM EDT
conversant participant would have worked
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BrendanPKeane | Sep 09, 2010, 08:40 AM EDT
I seem to have made up a word: conversant. (Sounds better than conversationalist, which is the meaning I was going-for).
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