Howard Dean talks sense on Ground Zero mosque with Keith Olberman
Posted on Friday, August 20, 2010 at 12:38 AM
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(part two below)
Howard Dean was a breath of fresh air last night when he spoke at length on the "Ground Zero mosque" controversy. He believes Muslims have every right to build the mosque, but should reconsider making a freedom of religion cause out of Ground Zero.
(Self-serving talk show hosts should not co-opt Martin Luther King's speech at the Lincoln Memorial, in a similar can/should problem. The nuns dismantled their memorial on the edge of Auschwitz in a can/should solution that was not afterwards framed as a defeat for free expression.)
Disgusting anti-Muslim rhetoric has been flying on the airwaves, making everyone crazy in ways that seem unAmerican, if only it were so.
Dean defends location-critics unfairly stigmatized and lumped-in with the bigots.
Almost every objection Keith Olbermann makes is against the extreme bigots, which is important, but that leaves the thoughtful location-critics out of the conversation. The center is supposed to be about dialogue, but so far, one side refuses to talk to the Governor, and is adamant to make a legalistic and argumentative stance when there are more pragmatic solutions.
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DennisQ | Aug 25, 2010, 11:19 PM EDT
The anti-Muslim rally scheduled for September 11th will be full of out-of-towners flown in special for the occasion. These out-of-towners will be enterained by out-of-town speakers who will be outraged that sacred ground should be defiled in this manner. Then the out-of-towners and the out-of-town speakers will leave, and business as usual will return to New York.
No matter what anybody says, the attack on September 11th didn't have that big an impact on New York itself. The great outcry for justice came from out of town. New Yorkers simply went on about their business and remained as tolerant of foreigners after the attack as they were beforehand. A surprisingly high percentage of New Yorkers don't believe the official story about what happened on September 11th, but aren't about to get worked up about it. Similarly, they're not going to get worked up by out of towners and their talk of sacrilege. As far as New Yorkers are concerned, if Ground Zero is a holy place, add it to the destinations on the tourist bus. See Ground Zero in the morning; see Rockefeller Center in the afternoon.
The reason the Ground Zero sacrilege story isn't going anywhere is that New Yorkers aren't buying into it. Mike Bloomberg is politically astute enough to read the mood of the city of which he is Mayor. He says Let's mnve on; bigotry is not welcome; and New York remains 100% committed to allowing this project to go forward.
No matter what anybody says, the attack on September 11th didn't have that big an impact on New York itself. The great outcry for justice came from out of town. New Yorkers simply went on about their business and remained as tolerant of foreigners after the attack as they were beforehand. A surprisingly high percentage of New Yorkers don't believe the official story about what happened on September 11th, but aren't about to get worked up about it. Similarly, they're not going to get worked up by out of towners and their talk of sacrilege. As far as New Yorkers are concerned, if Ground Zero is a holy place, add it to the destinations on the tourist bus. See Ground Zero in the morning; see Rockefeller Center in the afternoon.
The reason the Ground Zero sacrilege story isn't going anywhere is that New Yorkers aren't buying into it. Mike Bloomberg is politically astute enough to read the mood of the city of which he is Mayor. He says Let's mnve on; bigotry is not welcome; and New York remains 100% committed to allowing this project to go forward.
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hancock | Aug 24, 2010, 11:38 AM EDT
When they fly Budweisers trucks into buildings then people will protest.
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DennisQ | Aug 24, 2010, 12:39 AM EDT
Why do the cameras always cut away from the bar that's right next to the Islamic center? It's not a restaurant-type bar, either. It's a working class dive. Go to their website and they proclaim their motto, "Too much is never enough."
I don't know how long this bar has been there, but if a religious center isn't holy enough for Ground Zero, what's up with a saloon that offers cheap eats and reduced prices on Budweiser?
Oh, I know. You get your load on, then you stagger out onto Park Place and tell the world how loyal you are to the martyrs of Ground Zero.
I don't know how long this bar has been there, but if a religious center isn't holy enough for Ground Zero, what's up with a saloon that offers cheap eats and reduced prices on Budweiser?
Oh, I know. You get your load on, then you stagger out onto Park Place and tell the world how loyal you are to the martyrs of Ground Zero.
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DennisQ | Aug 24, 2010, 12:29 AM EDT
There weren't any big fires in Building Seven. Photographs show some fires burning on the north side, but the available fuel didn't burn hot enough to cause collapse. Typical office contents - furniture, paper, carpets, etc., reach a certain maximum temperature well short of that needed even to deform steel, much less melt it.
The reason Kevin Ryan was fired from his job at Underwriters Laboratories is that he caught them fudging the numbers - and went public with it when he couldn't get the bosses to address it. To this day, the government agency responsible for the report on Building Seven refuses to answer questions about the phony figures. Don't submit a FOIA request - it will be ignored. If an unfriendly reporter shows up at a news conference, they cut his microphone. Is this any way for a government agency to respond to citizens' questions?
There are other issues besides the absence of a fire hot enough to destroy a 47-storey skyscraper. Another issue is the symmetric collapse at freefall speed, defying Newton's Third Law. Who would you rather believe - some Bush administration appointee, or Sir Isaac Newton?
Building Seven is a weak point, but there are lots of weak points in the September 11th narrative. We definitely need a new investigation - the last one was a hodgepodge.
The reason Kevin Ryan was fired from his job at Underwriters Laboratories is that he caught them fudging the numbers - and went public with it when he couldn't get the bosses to address it. To this day, the government agency responsible for the report on Building Seven refuses to answer questions about the phony figures. Don't submit a FOIA request - it will be ignored. If an unfriendly reporter shows up at a news conference, they cut his microphone. Is this any way for a government agency to respond to citizens' questions?
There are other issues besides the absence of a fire hot enough to destroy a 47-storey skyscraper. Another issue is the symmetric collapse at freefall speed, defying Newton's Third Law. Who would you rather believe - some Bush administration appointee, or Sir Isaac Newton?
Building Seven is a weak point, but there are lots of weak points in the September 11th narrative. We definitely need a new investigation - the last one was a hodgepodge.
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hancock | Aug 23, 2010, 07:08 PM EDT
Building 7 collapsed , it didnt burn like an old barn. Were you there on 9/11. Its steel skeleton and light weight trusses were compromised by 40 fls of fire for 7 hours. You going to take on the holocaust and the moon landing next?
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Monsoonman | Aug 23, 2010, 10:21 AM EDT
I have to scratch my head in wonder when howard dean and keith olbermann are considered examples of level headedness and common sense, even though on this particular subject dean is right....The old adage goes: even a broken clock is correct twice a day. I hope Brendan has other sources besides these two to draw on when he presents articles to the proletariat.
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DennisQ | Aug 22, 2010, 09:46 PM EDT
As I see it, the Muslims are refusing to accept any "collective guilt" for what happened on September 11th. I completely agree with them! They're no more guilty of the attack than the victims themselves.
Unfortunately, we're stuck with the findings of government commissions that are anxious to shut down debate. For example, Shyam Sunder, director of the group that claimed Building Seven burned to the ground like an old barn, gives few press conferences, and when he does, he acts like Bill O'Reilly. Disagree with him and he shuts down your microphone. Is this any way for the director of a government agency to respond to citizen inquiries?
It appears that Republicans profited from the September 11th attacks and don't want the truth out. They used the events of that day as the basis for military actions that they falsely portrayed as counterattacks.
It's not a surprise that the same people who promoted these unnecessary wars are also imposing collective guilt on all Muslims. The group calling itself "Stop the Islamization of America" (SIOA) plans a rally on September 11. In addition to hatemongers Pam Geller and Robert Spencer, featured speakers will include: John Bolton, Geert Wilders, Andrew Breitbart, Gary Bernsten, Ilario Pantano, and Steve Malzberg - a rogue's gallery of foaming-at-the-mouth war- and hatemongers. Ilario Pantano, a murderer who got away with it, is running for Congress in North Carolina.
Unfortunately, we're stuck with the findings of government commissions that are anxious to shut down debate. For example, Shyam Sunder, director of the group that claimed Building Seven burned to the ground like an old barn, gives few press conferences, and when he does, he acts like Bill O'Reilly. Disagree with him and he shuts down your microphone. Is this any way for the director of a government agency to respond to citizen inquiries?
It appears that Republicans profited from the September 11th attacks and don't want the truth out. They used the events of that day as the basis for military actions that they falsely portrayed as counterattacks.
It's not a surprise that the same people who promoted these unnecessary wars are also imposing collective guilt on all Muslims. The group calling itself "Stop the Islamization of America" (SIOA) plans a rally on September 11. In addition to hatemongers Pam Geller and Robert Spencer, featured speakers will include: John Bolton, Geert Wilders, Andrew Breitbart, Gary Bernsten, Ilario Pantano, and Steve Malzberg - a rogue's gallery of foaming-at-the-mouth war- and hatemongers. Ilario Pantano, a murderer who got away with it, is running for Congress in North Carolina.
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Monsoonman | Aug 22, 2010, 08:18 PM EDT
Oh Dennis. The only one on this board who is frustrated lad, is you. No one wants to argue with a Quixotic rosie o'donnel, there is no basis when you are orbiting around yeranus. So don't take the silence directed towards your rants as an acquiescence to your philosophy, it is just the opposite....and we'll wait and see how the American public reacts to your inanity in November.
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BrendanPKeane | Aug 22, 2010, 07:50 PM EDT
DennisQ: I'll give a group to hate: the rich oil barrons in Saudi Arabia that fund Wahhabi Islam, 9/11 hijackers, and quite possibly, this mosque you defend like a pawn.
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DennisQ | Aug 22, 2010, 03:55 PM EDT
One of the achievements of this forum is that it's revealing the intellectual bankruptcy of the right wing. Over time, right wingers have less and less to contribute to the discussion of important issues. They've now devolved into name-calling just to maintain a presence at the table.
What right wingers need is a defined enemy, one that they can demonize and hate with the kind of viciousness that the late Sen. Joe McCarthy had for Communists. Unfortunately, al Qaeda isn't a group as such, it's a collection of ideas. When right wingers have to deal with ideas rather than identifiable groups, they are completely frustrated. They just don't deal well with ideas. But give them a group to hate, and they are launched.
All you have to do is wait them out. Continue to explain your viewpoints and patiently respond to their objections. Over time, they'll run out of gas!
What right wingers need is a defined enemy, one that they can demonize and hate with the kind of viciousness that the late Sen. Joe McCarthy had for Communists. Unfortunately, al Qaeda isn't a group as such, it's a collection of ideas. When right wingers have to deal with ideas rather than identifiable groups, they are completely frustrated. They just don't deal well with ideas. But give them a group to hate, and they are launched.
All you have to do is wait them out. Continue to explain your viewpoints and patiently respond to their objections. Over time, they'll run out of gas!
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hancock | Aug 21, 2010, 05:41 PM EDT
You are a lunatic.
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DennisQ | Aug 21, 2010, 04:29 PM EDT
We actually need the "who done it" in the equation because nature abhors a vacuum. As Jesus Himself remarked, "When the Devil has been kicked out, he returns with seven devils worse then himself." If you leave the place open and swept, it won't stay that way.
The fear of Wahhabism tracks back to a group "Stop Islamization of America" - SIOA - and its leader, Pamela Geller. Geller quotes Ayn Rand favorably on her "Atlas Shrugged" website, and has links to anti-immigration groups such as Citizen Warrior, which in turn connects back to Geller's live-in, Robert Spencer. It's a small, zealous group of people, but they're running a web petition to put the brakes on immigration:
Does this seem extreme? It's not as unreasonable as it might seem. We already choose who can immigrate and who cannot. We make the rules. This is our country, after all. We are not under any obligation to allow anyone to immigrate just because they want to. They do it with our blessing or they don't do it.
We need to re-open the September 11th investigation and address the many issues that were handled poorly. It's my contention that if you don't have an answer, say so. Don't plug the hole with fanciful stories, such as, for example, the idea that Building Seven caught fire and burned to the ground. That didn't happen - there's no science to support such a possibility.
Let's find out if there's any truth to Citizen Warrior's assertion that there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim. They actually say so!
There may be plenty of Muslims who reject these basic principles of Islamic doctrine, but we have no way to determine who does and who does not. We could ask them on their immigration application, but another Islamic principle allows Muslims to deceive non-Muslims if it helps the spread or dominance of Islam, so we cannot trust their answers.
The fear of Wahhabism tracks back to a group "Stop Islamization of America" - SIOA - and its leader, Pamela Geller. Geller quotes Ayn Rand favorably on her "Atlas Shrugged" website, and has links to anti-immigration groups such as Citizen Warrior, which in turn connects back to Geller's live-in, Robert Spencer. It's a small, zealous group of people, but they're running a web petition to put the brakes on immigration:
Does this seem extreme? It's not as unreasonable as it might seem. We already choose who can immigrate and who cannot. We make the rules. This is our country, after all. We are not under any obligation to allow anyone to immigrate just because they want to. They do it with our blessing or they don't do it.
We need to re-open the September 11th investigation and address the many issues that were handled poorly. It's my contention that if you don't have an answer, say so. Don't plug the hole with fanciful stories, such as, for example, the idea that Building Seven caught fire and burned to the ground. That didn't happen - there's no science to support such a possibility.
Let's find out if there's any truth to Citizen Warrior's assertion that there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim. They actually say so!
There may be plenty of Muslims who reject these basic principles of Islamic doctrine, but we have no way to determine who does and who does not. We could ask them on their immigration application, but another Islamic principle allows Muslims to deceive non-Muslims if it helps the spread or dominance of Islam, so we cannot trust their answers.
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emer333 | Aug 21, 2010, 11:23 AM EDT
Let's take the "who done it" out of the equation. And focus on the fact that this is sacred, very sensitive, hollowed ground. Let's give the place more time and space to heal. Nothing is permitted to be further built, except trees, and plantlife.
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BrendanPKeane | Aug 21, 2010, 10:58 AM EDT
hancock: I went to Bronx Science, they're actors. I go by the science and what's debated in scientific journals. As I understand it, Saudi Arabian terrorists, adhering to Wahhabi ideology, using Big Oil money, did 9/11. Now we're supposed to be excited when Saudi money is likely to be used to build a mosque on a building destroyed by the fuselage of the airplane. Without explaining the funding, this is looking like a Saudi prince project posing as moderate Sufism.
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