Why not tax America's rich?
By: Cahir O'Doherty | Published Sunday, June 19, 2011, 9:06 AM | Updated Friday, September 9, 2011, 10:15 PM
Thanks to the conservative voting record of millions of Americans over the last few decades, the nations super rich now pay a lot less taxes than they did twenty years ago. In fact, half of Americas truly wealthy pay no taxes at all.
I know what you're thinking: the top income tax rate is 35 percent, so how can people who make so much pay so little in taxes?
Well, the nation's tax laws are packed with breaks for people at every income level - but the rich have access to vastly more significant tax breaks than people with lower incomes. In America, after all, the amount of taxes you pay is often determined by the kind of accountant you can afford.
Are you aware that the top one percent’s share of our national income has doubled over the past three decades (from 10 percent in 1981 to well over 20 percent now)? It's the best time ever to be a plutocrat. For people at the top America is not broke, America's tax code is.
And the richest one-tenth of one percent’s share of the bonanza has actually tripled. They're doing better than ever, thank you very much. In the midst of the Great Recession they're making money to burn.
None of this will concern you if you think it's reasonable for someone rolling in cash to pay one percent or flat nothing of their annual income in tax. But for for the rest of us who also have Medicare and Social Security to pay into it quickly starts to chafe.
President Obama is correct in discerning that an effective way for America to reduce its the long-term budget deficit, protect Social Security and Medicare, invest in the nations education and infrastructure and not raise taxes on the working middle class - is by raising taxes on the super rich.
It's hard to remember now because the Reagan era did such a good job of turning our society upside down, but from the 1940's until 1980 the top tax income tax rate on the highest earners in America was at least 70 percent.
In the 1950's it was actually 91 percent. Today it’s 35 percent. The rich are paying a much lower share of their incomes in taxes now than at any time since World War II.
A final word. If Americas rich were taxed at the rates they paid half a century ago, they’d be paying in over $350 billion more this year alone. That would very quickly become sufficient to accomplish every major target the nation has set for itself while also reducing future deficits. Imagine what a boon that would be.
Everything connects: the bonanza being enjoyed by America’s super-rich is directly related to the drop in their tax rates - and as they prosper the public purse empties, so the nation faces devastating budget squeezes and the slashing of vital public services for the middle class and the poor.
Of course money doesn't grow on trees, but nor does it trickle down from rich men's pockets. But paying taxes is an obligation of citizenship, or it once was. If the rich want to escape their obligations to this nation or take their money abroad the better to hide it they should also lose their right to call themselves American citizens.
Some of them agree. As many as 743 Americans took just that drastic and irreversible step to surrender their passports last year - that's three times as many as in 2008.
Money meant more to them that their citizenship, apparently. What does that tell you about the patriotism and loyalty of America's superrich?
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.seanomelbourne | May 01, 2011, 12:19 AM EDT
I'm signing off now i'm suffering ennui from your repetitious crap.
hancock | Apr 29, 2011, 08:06 PM EDT
Sean, American taxes are none of your business.
seanomelbourne | Apr 29, 2011, 07:14 PM EDT
How can I talk about your taxes I don't know you or your tax obligations nor do I care. I will continue writing my opinion and if it upsets your sensibilities well!! tough. You do not have to respond if you feel hurt diddums.
hancock | Apr 29, 2011, 11:35 AM EDT
Sean it is not without merit. Not on this subject.It is so nice they let you have a constitution. Don't talk about my taxes.
seanomelbourne | Apr 29, 2011, 02:21 AM EDT
BTW what English territory,if you mean Australia we have a constitution just like the U.S. England doe's not.
seanomelbourne | Apr 29, 2011, 02:19 AM EDT
As I said before I have an opinion and I like to partake in debate. I also have close connections with America and I closely follow events there.If you do not wish to debate that's fine but sending silly one liners telling me to mind my own business is childish and without merit.
hancock | Apr 29, 2011, 12:41 AM EDT
Sean I see no reason why a subject from an English territory should worry about how much Americans should pay in taxes. Please enlighten me and I will stop asking.
seanomelbourne | Apr 28, 2011, 07:43 PM EDT
You seem to be stuck in a groove like an old cracked record if you do not wish to partake in debate take a walk in the fresh air.
hancock | Apr 28, 2011, 07:24 PM EDT
Good Sean , worry about your own country.
seanomelbourne | Apr 26, 2011, 07:43 PM EDT
Retirees do not pay tax on their superannuation benefits in Australia.Maybe you should visit and observe our high standard of living.Makes the U.S. look like a third world country.
hancock | Apr 25, 2011, 10:36 AM EDT
Good for you , now worry about your own taxes.
seanomelbourne | Apr 24, 2011, 02:56 AM EDT
WE are retrieving our money from the U.S. by stealth.The Aussie dollar is rapidly approaching $1.10US up about 20% in 3yrs.
hancock | Apr 23, 2011, 07:04 PM EDT
Worry about you own country.
seanomelbourne | Apr 21, 2011, 07:44 PM EDT
None directly Hancock,But the craven deputy sheriffs who call themselves Aussie politicians send troops to prop up U.S. policies in Iraq and Afghanistan costing us billions.
hancock | Apr 21, 2011, 03:38 PM EDT
A flat tax will never go because it would hurt corrupt politicians and their corrupt corporate pimps.
Scrivner | Apr 21, 2011, 02:38 PM EDT
I get such a kick out of those who accuse the GOP of being the party of "the rich." The new Lord Mayor of Chicago, Mr Emmanual, had to take a leave of gov't service (between serving Pres Clinton and serving Pres Obama) for a few years...to collect multimillion dollar paychecks from Goldman Sachs, a most prominent investment bank. Election Commission figures showed that, in the 2008 election, the majority of BIG banks contributed more money to the Obama campaign than to Sen McCain's effort. Mayor Richard M. Daley's brother just went to the White House after spending some time collecting substantial compensation from Chase. Dig a little deeper and think before you buy into that class warfare rhetoric.
allentown | Apr 21, 2011, 01:37 PM EDT
Maybe it again time to think about a Flat Tax. If the goals are to reduce corporate welfare and to enable household tax returns to fit on a postcard, then a true flat tax best achieves those goals.
hancock | Apr 21, 2011, 11:07 AM EDT
Sean how much extra will you be paying to the U.S. treasury?
seanomelbourne | Apr 20, 2011, 07:59 PM EDT
Hancock wishes to stifle debate.
maloney | Apr 20, 2011, 01:02 PM EDT
Ratboy.. per Dillon Ratigan of MSNBC there are now more people receiving money from the American Govt. than there are people paying into it. His source was the govt. Look it up yourself. Now who's the moron? It is sad for America and everything it stands for. A nanny state was NOT what the founders started but it is what you and obama will have us be if you continue to get your way, but you will not continue to get your way.
Ratslayer | Apr 20, 2011, 07:23 AM EDT
...PAY NO FEDERAL INCOME TAXES, I can see yer point. But i think yer making a subtle racist cheap shot at blacks and hispanics. It's a sad day indeed for the USA for folks like you to believe that our financial/economic woes are the fault of America's poorest and most disenfranchised citizens.
Ratslayer | Apr 20, 2011, 07:18 AM EDT
Maloney, what a moronic comment! More people on the dole than pay taxes?? Really? Please explain. Now if yer referring to CORPORATE WELFARE QUEENS WHO
maloney | Apr 20, 2011, 01:15 AM EDT
There are now for the first time in America's history more people on the dole than pay taxes. Lets teach people how to work instead of how to sponge.
hancock | Apr 20, 2011, 12:33 AM EDT
Worry about Australia.
seanomelbourne | Apr 19, 2011, 07:29 PM EDT
The mega rich and corporations do not mind socialism when divvying out the tax dollar as they preach capitalism to the middle classes and the poor.They write off clothing, dinners, cars, boats, and then they want the middle class to except less in benefits,health education etc. to pay for their rich lifestyle wake up for Chr-st sake.
olovely | Apr 19, 2011, 05:41 PM EDT
He wrote about how the richest people in America pay 1% or nothing whatsoever on taxes. Because they don't it's left to those who can least afford it to pay for the obligations of citizenship (whilst the tycoons jet off on another tony vacation). It's not the poor who have damaged America's social contract: it's the GOP and the rich who pay them.
kthompson3 | Apr 19, 2011, 05:35 PM EDT
CpCpCp1 is right... the more the government collects, the more it will spend, so it won't matter if more is collected from the rich and corporations. I for one refuse to buy into the class warfare spew that the Democratic Party perpetuates as a diversion to the real issues. The bible says, "Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife and goods." Being jealous about a person's wealth and then taking it in the name of taxes is like theft. Yes, I do think everyone, including corporations should pay taxes. I do not think that the super wealthy should have to pay exceedingly more for programs that they will never use. It's theirs, they earned it, and they should get to keep as much of it as possible. I feel the same way about my income; I earned it, and I resent the governement spending whatever they want and then taking from me what they need, thus determining how much income I can have and what kind of lifestlye I will have. We need to get a handle on entitlements, foreign aid, and pork projects stuffed into bills as a form of bribery to obtain legislative votes on an issue. We need term limits, and politicians who have worked for a living rather than political science majors or attornies turned politicians. We need less federal government control so that the people have more contol at the local and state levels. One more thing, be wary of politicians pushing an immigration bill through. If they do, we should all scream for it not to take effect until after 2012 so that one party cannot use the ignorance of the illiterate or non-english speaking to win elections.
michaelidaho | Apr 19, 2011, 05:06 PM EDT
Just another one sided ignorant commentary from Cahir. How about a follow-up column discussing how federal and state governments gives away money in the form of the earned income credit, food stamps, rental subsidies, free health insurance and free education (Pell Grants) to people who work part-time or not at all? Then write a column on how the people making between $40,000 and $100,000 have to support these people. Oh by the way, I did not quite understand your comment about the rich getting better refunds because they can afford better accountants. Don't you worry the "poor" or quite clever at what benefits they can get from the government. And if they are not they can always go to a free tax prep clinic for the "poor" people.
olovely | Apr 19, 2011, 04:13 PM EDT
There are three people in America who blame Obama for Bush's catasthropic economic meltdown: Rush Limbaugh, Orly Tate and Glenn Beck.
jflanagan | Apr 19, 2011, 03:54 PM EDT
You need to get away from the politicians favorite tactic of divide and conquer. Yes, the Corporations, this year GE seems to be the biggest beneficiary, get tax breaks from their bought and paid for politicians. Yes, the politicians pander to the lower incomes to get their votes and almost 50% of taxpayers pay no income tax whatsoever. The answer: get rid of deductions, set reasonable rates for every income level and let everyone, by paying reasonable taxes, gets to feel like they are partners in the country. Maybe then we'll see the end of this petty argument that never gets anything accomplished and let's the politicians make you believe that they will balance the budget and get rid of the growing public debt, even though they are spending way over what they will ever take in. Let's get together as Americans and tell the Republicans and Democrats we won't put up with their divisive tactics, used to gain or keep power over real Americans.
hancock | Apr 19, 2011, 03:33 PM EDT
Bring what on? Go back to welfare office you dick.
Ratslayer | Apr 19, 2011, 12:32 PM EDT
For most stupid Americans, defending the rich is akin to cockroaches defending a can of RAID! Idiots! Bring it on morons!
Ratslayer | Apr 19, 2011, 12:24 PM EDT
RIP, USA. Let us all weep as the greatest economy the world has ever known dies before our very eyes. The middle and working classes -- the backbone of America -- are dying while the rich become enriched! I can't believe that I paid more in taxes in 2010 than GE and most corporations. God I hope the revolution will be televised. Death to all of those who wish to sell out America for easy profits overseas!
longislander1940 | Apr 19, 2011, 11:28 AM EDT
The American rich are the only ones spending money in this country anymore. Most of our money is going out to foreign countries like Mexico and South America with all the illegals working here. They live 20 - 30 in filthy houses and do not contribute to this country.
seamusmoore | Apr 19, 2011, 11:25 AM EDT
@JamtheCat you probably believe that umbrellas cause rain; never confuse a result with the cause.
John5319 | Apr 19, 2011, 11:10 AM EDT
Who are you trying to mislead in this article, the informed? The Budget deficit has been quadrupled under Obama. When Bush left office it was $480 billion dollars, under Obama it's $1.64 Trillion ! He doesn't care about reducing the deficit, plus he just got the U.S. into another spending War ... and a Civil War at that! Let somebody remind you that so-called eduction does NOT reduce deficits, it increases them by government spending. And when the graduation test score are falling, more taxpayer money for eduction seems to be a WAIST of resources. The "rich", which are only the top 1% of all American incomes, Pay ... PAY over 40% of all the money collected ! Many only WISH they were considered "rich". It's called being a success, and independent from those whose desire is to control. While the tax rates in the U.S. may not appear to be enough by Irish standards it does allow Sovereign Individuals to keep what they earn and spend it on the things that THEY WANT, not what Government WANTS and uses to control it's citizens. In the U.S. government is LIMITED by the Constitution, and that is why the majority dislike (by 67%) Obama's Socialized health care "insurance" which forces one to buy a Government product. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not being a Serf, or a Slave to the money changers of the Central Bankers, OR a government that uses Marxism to redistribute other peoples money!! If ALL the assets ... of ALL the rich were taken away by Government ... it would be TYRANNY ... and it wouldn't even PAY THE INTEREST on our debt. So for the brainless, and since the "rich" got there by investing in workers and jobs, WHY ... why would thinking person do down that road to a National "equalization" of all into poverty?
olovely | Apr 19, 2011, 09:28 AM EDT
The thought of paying taxes becoming a disincentive to becoming rich is the stupidest argument that conservatives have ever made.
olovely | Apr 19, 2011, 09:27 AM EDT
Tazes are your obligation as a citizen of the United States. Everyone here pays them and it time the burden were shared by the super rich who hire high powered accountants or move their cash overseas to escape their obligation to their countrymen.
reinkefj | Apr 19, 2011, 08:22 AM EDT
Taxes are theft. What gives you the right to TAKE what some one else has earned? You say that they are not paying their "fair share"; who died and left anyone in charge of determining what's "fair"? I'm not rich by any stretch of the imaginations, but maybe some day, I'll invent the better mousetrap. And get rich. How did I take on the obligation to keep politicians and bureaucrats rolling in money for their waste? If some needs help, truly need, I'll donate. But don't rob me and claim it's for charity. Or for my own good. Today's Gooferments are just a bunch of tyrants without the crowns.
jamthecat | Apr 18, 2011, 10:42 PM EDT
Oh, and don't forget, under Clinton America's debt went down; under Bush it more than doubled. And don't forget how St. Ronnie of Raygun all but tripled it in his eight years. So stop laying the debt off on Democrats when it's Republicans who have consistently built it up.
jamthecat | Apr 18, 2011, 10:39 PM EDT
When the United States had a tax rate of between 70 and 90%, we built the greatest middle class in history. We became the wealthiest nation in the world. We became the most powerful country to ever exist. Now our tax rates are half that and our middle class is collapsing, our economy is collapsing and our ability to be strong is collapsing. Why? Because the rich have manipulated the system and then bought themselves the government in order to enrich themselves further, and the hell with anybody else. When it reaches the point where a hundred-billion dollar company not only pays ZERO taxes but also gets a tax CREDIT of $3.5 billion more, that is just plain theft. And anyone who supports that supports the continued looting of the US Treasury by these bastards. So yes, tax the rich. And ignore the yapping chihuahuas they trained to sound off whenever someone tries to make things right and fair, again. They're like the Jews who helped the Nazis control their fellow Jews, thinking it would save them from the same fate. It didn't. And these anti-tax yap-dogs will find that out too damn late.
jacke47 | Apr 18, 2011, 10:32 PM EDT
edit below (are required to pay more taxes then...)
jacke47 | Apr 18, 2011, 10:31 PM EDT
If America's wealthy, 250K and above, are required then the most wealthy with the most money will change their tax location and America might well get zilch, nada, zero... Check what happened when the rich were overtaxed in Maryland--fewer dollars in revenue due to wealthy relocation...
Pittsburghkid | Apr 18, 2011, 09:51 PM EDT
Why be Rich? Who is going to decide where the rich's money goes? Obama has a collation of Black, Hispanics, Liberal Whites. Being Irish-American mean that I'm part of the evil White Males, who oppressed woman, enslave blacks, and stole land from the Mexican. Although I do not recall doing this, and my forefathers were poor Irish-Catholics. I'm guilty of the sins my fore-fathers never committed. I'm sorry for confusing you with facts. Here is my point, I'm on Obama s**t list. So anything Obama does with the money from the rich won't help me. So let the rich have it.
cillowen | Apr 18, 2011, 09:00 PM EDT
most of the sheep buy into repugs logic. vote on to yer doom.
seamusmoore | Apr 18, 2011, 07:38 PM EDT
re-read your first sentence "hollabackgurl"; that's right:"thanks to the MILLIONS OF VOTERS over the last 3 decades". You see this is OUR COUNTRY Cahir, blow-ins that don't like it, can just BLOW OUT just as easily, preferrably, on a makeshiftr raft to your utopia: CUBA! VIVA Fidel! Say hello to Hugo Chavez for me, you bollix!
feeneycj | Apr 18, 2011, 07:09 PM EDT
fuzzy math, spending cuts will still have to be drastic. $350 billion more will not cover the $14.3 trillion and rising
olovely | Apr 18, 2011, 04:15 PM EDT
You should read articles before responfing to them fasteddy. "If Americas rich were taxed at the rates they paid half a century ago, they’d be paying in over $350 billion more this year alone."
FastEddy | Apr 18, 2011, 02:54 PM EDT
Why not tax America's rich? Because even if the income tax were 100% of the top 10% (all of their income), there would not be nearly enough to cover the O'Bummer Administration deficit. Better idea: double the taxes government employees and assess a 100% tax on government employee pensions = they are the ones fudging up their budgets, they should pay for their errors.
olovely | Apr 18, 2011, 02:30 PM EDT
The very poor often don't pay federal income tax but they do end up paying every other kin, so you're talking rot katiemac. Between pay plenty of other taxes, including federal payroll taxes. Between gas taxes, sales taxes, utility taxes and other taxes, no one lives tax free in America.
hollabackgurl | Apr 18, 2011, 01:37 PM EDT
45 percent of U.S. households will pay no federal income tax at all this year according to the Tax Policy Center, a Washington think tank. Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance taxes (known as payroll taxes) are paid mostly by the bottom 90 percent of wage earners. That's because, once you reach $106,800 of income, you pay no more for Social Security, though the much smaller Medicare tax applies to all wages. Warren Buffett pays the exact same amount of Social Security taxes as someone who earns $106,800.
peterson | Apr 18, 2011, 01:34 PM EDT
Letting illegal immigrants vote is one of the dumbest things the U.S has done. Blame the Democraps for that because the illegals have and will vote for them. The illegals are a very huge expense as they get free medical care which costs the U.S billions. and of Course, the super rich should pay their fare share of taxes for the privilege of being rich.
Nicomax | Apr 18, 2011, 12:55 PM EDT
There is a growing movement for the "19% Solution". Both federal revenue and spending need to meet at 19% of GDP, and stay close to that level except for all-consuming emergencies [e.g. real wars, or depressions]. This would mean current spending will need to move down from around 23%, no small deal, and revenue needs to move up from the current 15% level, also irritating for some. This is about where these measures were in the Clinton years, now fondly remembered a nirvana.
jdi2269 | Apr 18, 2011, 12:37 PM EDT
I'M NOT RICH. I LIVE ON SOCIAL SECURITY, BUT CAHIR, YOU CAN'T JUST LIE AND MAKE UP FACTS! TO SAY HALF OF AMERICA'S RICH DON'T PAY ANY TAXES IS A BLATANT LIE! IF A PERSON MAKES $1,000,000, HE PAYS STATE AND FEDERAL TAX OF 48% ! THAT'S ENOUGH! DEMOCRATS NEED TO STOP SPENDING! WE SHOULD GIVE NO UNEMPLOYMENT, MEDICAL BENEFITS, FOOD STAMPS, AND OTHER FREEBIES TO ILLEGALS! THIS IS JUST DEMOCRATS TRYING TO BUY THE HISPANIC VOTES JUST LIKE GIVING DOLLARS TO THE CORRUPT UNIONS IS BUYING VOTES!
cpcpcp1 | Apr 18, 2011, 11:32 AM EDT
The trouble with taxing anyone is that no matter how much money the government gets they will spend it on new programs so they can get votes. They can never get hold of enough money. If you tax people who make over 250,000 the government will just redistribute to the poor they will throw it away and then the poor will have no money and the rich will have no money, then where will they get money from? What I find is that most of the poor people in the USA have televisions, cell phones, cars and a lot of other things. I don't consider this truly poor. There are some who don't have these things and they are the people who need a helping hand which I don't mind giving through the church. I don't think the government should be the ones to decide who to give my money to.
seagreen | Apr 18, 2011, 10:59 AM EDT
A soldier tax would help.... A pro-rated tax per soldier on the military industrial complex members would make sense. Kellog -Brown and Root, Halliburton, Bechtel, Dyn Corp, Lockheed etc. have been raking in the dough since 1964 with the various wars that were ongoing. They were/are the receipients of the humongous monetary contracts while the rest of the country is now broke paying for all of these wars. Since they are in the war profiteering business, it is only decent that they and their stockholders kick back some of this money that has been removed from the general circulation
hollabackgurl | Apr 18, 2011, 10:50 AM EDT
Wall Street's banking and bonds industry threatened us the Great Recession, we blinked - and what was our reward? The CEO's awarded themsleves record bonuses a year after. These are the people the GOP gets teared up over. Poor little billionaires who walk between the raindrops and the nations tax codes.
slainte9 | Apr 18, 2011, 10:43 AM EDT
By the way I'm a GE stockhold, they and I have paid plenty of taxes over the years. That's a fact.
slainte9 | Apr 18, 2011, 10:42 AM EDT
I hardly think it's a bonanza to keep the money you've earned, although in the case of many CEOs who pack boards of directors with their friends, there ought to be a curb on piracy. But we do need to look at an equitable structure: there's too much untax money sitting around in 529 and 401K plans, that aren't realistic savings alternatives for less affluent Americans.
jacke47 | Apr 18, 2011, 10:18 AM EDT
Edit below. Oh that's the 'going green'company headed-up by; Immelt. live OFF the gov who COLLECTS extraordinayr taxes. MONIES changed from moneies, oops. Let my emotion precede spelling...
mayoman | Apr 18, 2011, 10:06 AM EDT
We need a truly progressive tax system. One that taxes everyone fairly. The rich must pay a greater share in taxes because, for one good reason, they reap the greatest benefits from the social and economic system that all of us have created and contribute to. The insistence of the wealthy to evade their share of responsibility for paying taxes is truly unpatriotic.
Laochra | Apr 18, 2011, 10:02 AM EDT
Jacke47 is right. "Why not tax America's Rich?" Because it's regressive. An enormous percentage of taxes are already payed by a minority of Americans: The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes. The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes. 47% pay no tax and therefore have no incentive to be part of the system or demand that their legislators be fiscally responsible. Hey, it's free, why not demand more?? And you question the patriotism and loyalty of those who are fed up? These are the people who create the jobs and pay the bill. The author needs to get his facts straight, or perhaps move back home. They could use some of his insightful ideas.
pugsmom | Apr 18, 2011, 09:58 AM EDT
I can remember the very conversation I had with my father back in 1965, sitting at breakfast one morning, concerning taxes. He proposed then that EVERYONE, regardless of income, pay a "flat rate....no loopholes, no deductions, period" I am certain, however, that even such a simplistic plan would be totally and completely scrambled by any gov't bureaucracy that laid hands on it. The gov't loves nothing so much as red tape, paper and confusion.
chesapeake | Apr 18, 2011, 09:51 AM EDT
Take every penny that the "rich" make... and it still wouln't have an impact on the Obama economy.
ciarrai | Apr 18, 2011, 09:45 AM EDT
Conservatives will tell you that if you leave the money with the rich it will trickle down. This is a fantasy. We need to tax the rich at the appropriate level.
jacke47 | Apr 18, 2011, 09:42 AM EDT
"...half of Americas[sic]truly wealthy pay no taxes at all." That may be true and one of those is General Electric. What's that you ask? Oh that the 'going green' company heade up by President and CEO Jeffrey Immelt's who is Pres. Ogama's chief economic advisor. Coincidence? We think not!! By the way, 47% of ALL AMERICANS do not pay tax and live of the government who pay extrordinary taxes to it. Just because the tax rate is lower than in previous years, it does not necessarily follow that revenues have been decreased. We don't have a revenue problem in the States. Our government has a sspending problem. It spends not only the tax revenue but more importantly, THE MONEIES BORROWED FROM CHINA, JAPAN et al.