34 Comments

• eiriamach | Feb 28, 2012, 03:08 PM EST

  Such hatred is pouring out of the Catholics here! How do they get to be so hate filled? Still lashing out at others for the crimes of priests, Toronthab writes with really weird logic, "to think sex abuse and contraception aren't linked is to court madness." What can that mean? That rapist priests all use condoms? Not at all reassuring! Paranoid PiperMac52 imagines the Catholic Church is persecuted by people with "all manner of atheist, nihilist, hedonistic attributes." And Chris1791 wants to kick out anyone who criticizes the clergy. No need for that: a few words from these inmates are enough to scare away anyone who hasn't already fled from their RC cuckoos' nest.

• Chris1791 | Feb 28, 2012, 09:35 AM EST

  seanomelb you cannot call yourself Catholic. You are NOT. You need to find a new religion and leave the Catholics alone. You are the true miniroty and what are you doing but forcing a 2,000 year old instution who held the world together for most of those 2,000 years along with 1.1 BILLION Catholics around the world what they can and CANNOT do and what the can and CANNOT believe in. You have NO RIGHTS to tell the Catholic church ANYTHING. Don't like the Church doctrine go elsewhere. Let me put it in clearer language GET LOST. FIRST OFF OBAMA MADE THIS A POLITICAL ISSUE BECAUSE HE IS A TOTAL FAILURE WITH THE ECONOMY. HE HAD TO DISTRACT Americans from that. Before a few weeks ago NO ONE was screaming for FREE contraception. NO ONE. If you want to use contraception YOU NEED to pay for it yourself. No one owes you free anything. And for the record you are NOT a Catholic. Find a new religion.

• seanomelb | Feb 13, 2012, 04:55 PM EST

  I was born in the Rotunda hospital(Dublin) where they put the mothers life ahead of the unborn child or at least gave the woman a choice "it's you or the baby".The catholic hospitals never gave that choice as they looked upon it as "abortion". The Church and the Christian right wish to force their minority opinion on everyone else.If they make an election issue of contraception and abortion they will loose.

• SingleDonald | Feb 13, 2012, 11:46 AM EST

  Well put, Toronthab. I have previously criticized the practice of attempted prosecution of old cases. We should concentrate on the present, and the recent past, such as the Jerry Sanduskys of the world. I know that some complaints against him are dated. Yet, the recent transgressions can be butressed by testimony from 1980's victims. This will establish a pattern of pedophilia, which should surely lead to the coach's conviction, on the recent cases. The one positive outcome of this scandal, as in the case of the Church, is the shedding of light on the subject. I do believe that the Church is indeed safe NOW, where kids are concerned. Likewise, greater scrutiny will be given to coaches who spend an inordinate amount of time with pre adolescents. So long as their time is spent out in the open, no problem. Once he starts inviting kids to sleep over, or spends time in the communal showers with them, that would be another matter.

• rainbowbrew | Feb 13, 2012, 10:48 AM EST

  I feel that I have been damned by the RCC. My mom had an abortion in the 1940's. Catholics all around chastised her and made her feel less than human. This behavior by the catholics which I did not knwo about and then like a dunder-head joined the religion that hurt my Mom. She took this almost to her grave, after she told me I quit teh evil church. They damned her and said she should have died instead of the abortion. Therefore they damn me. RCC you can live your lies and be hurtful to otehrs but it all comes back to bite you. You are not a moral nor ethical instititution, you are a greedy institution. You started out as good but you forgot teh teachings of Christ.

• Toronthab | Feb 13, 2012, 10:05 AM EST

  That a way to avoid the issue. The John Jay College of Criminal Justice was very clear that not only is the abuse scandal a western civilization issue, but that the church has done a remarkable job correcting her errors, a lot of which were in following bad secular psychological opinion on treatment. More to the point, it is you who are enabling the continuing trauma of sex abuse by focusing on the long since healed practices of the church. Rather than dig out 50 year old cases, to tout to deflect from the current issue of rights of consceince.. and to think sex abuse and contraception aren't linked is to court madness, you should be standing up for rights of conscience before your press is silenced. Hypocrisy indeed.

• IrelandNorth | Feb 13, 2012, 07:23 AM EST

  Someone once said: "Hypocracy is the vaseline of political intercourse!" Try that for a Zen koan. The Holy Roman Catholic & Apostolic Church, (not unlike the Greek/Russian/Syrian Orthodox Churches(& 'High Church' Anglican Communion) are all counterfeit Christianities. The only distinction being that the latter are better quality forgeries. The real struggle is not between Protestantism & Catholicism but between Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy, something Catholics in the south, west & east of Ireland (and unionists in northern[ised] Ireland (as indeed in the United Kingdom of Great Britain (UKGB) have yet to fully appreciate.

• SingleDonald | Feb 12, 2012, 10:32 PM EST

  Madeliene, I'm truly sorry that your sons had this pervert as a Cub Scout Leader, and am happy he was presumably caught. Yet, I must disagree with you & PiperMac52. There comes a time in life, usually during the formative years, when a boy/girl puts things into perspective. The nonsense we learned in Catholic Schools, that anything sexual outside of marriage (even "impure thoughts") are "mortal sins-damnable offenses" is scoffed at, and ignored. If one has to say, "I'm sorry Lord", every time he imagines a close encounter with Jennifer Aniston (or a girl with Brad Pitt), this leads to tremendous GUILT over something which is quite normal. If one then logically concludes that he/she has done nothing wrong, there is no need to go to confession over these matters! St. Augustine was an abject fool! His early promiscuity was replaced by a totalitarian mindset, which accepted no flexibility. Consider the shorter confession lines today! I have often said here that people no longer feel guilt ridden to have to confess these normal activities. Also, the Church (like any authorative institution) attempts to increase its power over its subjects, by preaching that a minor, or non transgression, is a grave matter! Smart people know that consideration for ones' partner is most important, in any close encounter, be they married or not, be they attempting to procreate or not. Intimacy IS NOT limited to procreation; it is also an act of sharing, communication & affection. Why should a man & woman, who love & care for each other, have to rush into an ill advised marriage, just to experience this?? Many marriages in previous eras failed, soley because the couple was fearful of what the Church would think, if they became intimate beforehand. Well, we had the social upheaval of the '60s-'70's, and are now in the 21st Century! Smart people will not have the clock turned back on them. It is time the Church grew up, where sexual matters are concerned!!

• St Bosco | Feb 12, 2012, 09:35 PM EST

  Being the biggest hypocrit in the world, the catholic church gives lip service to morality. Well what did you expect from a cult that bows to graven images and has a long history of horrors.

• Madeliene | Feb 12, 2012, 05:35 PM EST

  I know that if you were starving outside the doors of Catholic Charities , they would let you.. Birth control should be payed for but he person needing it, not the community! If you do not want to be we a Carholic do not be one- if you are and want to take birth conrol take it and ask God to forgive you on your deathbed, if it bothers you- He will. If you have children and send them anywhere where you feel you need to watch them, Do SO I did , thank God- as the Cub Scoout Leader was a murdering peodophile- and I was right there with MY sons, to protect them ( just in case)

• seanomelb | Feb 12, 2012, 04:28 PM EST

  bishops should keep out of other peoples bedrooms after all some of them are only interested in childrens bedrooms.Cahirs article is "fair and balanced" The christian right are panicking,they are scared because they know Obama will have 4 more years to complete his programme to save The U.S from the disastrous mess the republicans left in '07. They lie and lie and lie.They would rather see the country fail than have a democrat succeed how unamerican.

• Heather911 | Feb 12, 2012, 04:23 PM EST

  What the hell? Nothing wrong with birth control. I would rather have someone take the pill instead of aborting or dumping a baby in to some dumpster.

• PiperMac52 | Feb 12, 2012, 03:54 PM EST

  The leftist ingrained thought is incapable of using logic it seems. First off: Approximately 3% of priests ans prelates within the Catholic church were involved in the sex abuse scandal in some form. It was an atrocious failing that has been condemned by many Catholics who follow the precepts of the faith, obviously those involved did not. Putting that aside, liberals presume that because of this obvious failure of those who did not follow Church teachings, in fact were totally in opposition to it, The church itself, which contains Christ's truths, should no longer stand for what is right? Natural law(set in motion by God)follows a definite set of rules. God intended sex to be a gift between married men and women in order to share in creation. Anything that subverts that law is in direct opposition. Because fallen man, in his selfish nature, redefines or cherry picks those precepts through his malformed conscience and lack of logical thinking does not make them right. Fallen members of the Church have had many failings throughout history yet the Church established by Christ and it's teachings survive against all manner of atheist, nihilist, hedonistic attributes.

• carlow98 | Feb 12, 2012, 02:39 PM EST

  George Carlin, Irish American philosopher? Ahh, Cahir you are delusional.

• bunkerisland | Feb 12, 2012, 02:15 PM EST

  Many churches in the US are down to 15-20% attendance, mostly elders looking toward the pearly gates. The remainder have said good-bye to this institution.

• hybernia | Feb 12, 2012, 02:00 PM EST

  "Can't you fools understand anything, we need lots of young kids to rape"-Daddy Paedophile.

• Nicomax | Feb 12, 2012, 01:45 PM EST

  The right to use contraceptives is settled law. In the mid-1960's the US Supreme Court in the Griswold v. Connecticut case overruled that state's law which declared illegal the use of contraceptives, even for married couples. But as we are learning this new crop of radicals are willing to get rid of most of the landmark judicial rulings from past decades, possibly including major civil rights legislation.

• EphraimKibbey | Feb 12, 2012, 11:38 AM EST

  I was taught that, in America, one's own rights extended until they began to deny the rights of another person. The courts have decided that parents do not have the right to deny medical treatment from a sick child on the basis of their religious beliefs. They can believe as they wish but they can not deny their child the right to life on the basis of that belief. Many states have laws even stricter than the new Affordable Care Act's which have been challanged repeatedly by the Catholic Church on religious freedom grounds and been upheld in every case. The Catholic Church has the right to belief but not the right to force others to its belief. This is what sent many of America's founders to our shores and it is the basis for the long-standing fear amoung protestants in America of electing a Catholic as president. It is why JFK explained that he would not govern as a catholic in order to get elected. Many GOP candidates have expressed support for personhood laws that would make contraception illegal. They wish to have their religious beliefs become the law of the land forcing it upon those who hold other beliefs. It is strange to see evangelical protestants and catholics join forces to make laws that make their religious beliefs the law of the land. Their ancestors must feel very betrayed.

• haasny007 | Feb 12, 2012, 10:03 AM EST

  Well put! Luckily, fewer and fewer Catholics these days are looking to the church to calibrate their moral compass. Aside from Islam, Catholicism is the most reactionary and least connected with the real concerns of its congregation among all major organized religions. The Catholic church and its hierarchy are rapidly becoming irrelevant.

• pilib04 | Feb 12, 2012, 10:01 AM EST

  In spite of all of the interesting debate, the real issue is do Catholics have the right to use condoms, birth control pills and IUDs in the privacy of their own bedrooms. Or do those supporting the old men of the Church really believe that Catholics don't employ artificial birth control?

• pilib04 | Feb 12, 2012, 09:55 AM EST

  Finally, a message of reason. Of course, we Irish know the history of the hierarchy and their ability to betray their own. Just go back to 1800 when they endorsed the Act of Union (even while the Penal Laws were still in place) for a few pieces of silver.

• hollabackgurl | Feb 12, 2012, 09:37 AM EST

  Quote: 'Conservatives will do anything for the unborn. But once you’re born, you’re on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus, from conception to nine months. After that, they don’t want to know about you.'

• hollabackgurl | Feb 12, 2012, 09:36 AM EST

  How do I know that the Church are more concerned with fighting the culture wars than helping the poor? Show me when the Catholic Bishops Conference has attacked the White House over social programs to aid the poor. Show me when they last grandstanded en masse to do anything other than bash gays, or women's reproductive rights, or done anything other than try to distract us from their own scandals?

• Gearoid4 | Feb 12, 2012, 07:35 AM EST

  The vast majority of abortions take place because of so-called "social" reasons and serious medical symptoms are not present. There are cases where pregnancies become difficult because of life-threatening conditions to the mother, baby or even both. To save the life of one or both the medical team have to drastic action, the side-effects of which may end in the unintended termination of the pregnancy. These outcomes are very traumatic and sad for the couples involved. Destruction of life in the womb should never be intentional. All life is sacred and must be respected. I know that the disputed HHS is does not directly concern abortion and is centered on insurance policies covering "reproductive" procedures like contraception and sterilization. The sleight-of-hand nature of the Obama "compromise" was intended to split the Catholic opposition into two camps. Typical the CHA(Catholic Health Association) and CRS(Catholic Relief Services) organizations immediately recommended the latest Obama ruse. These groups rely heavily on state support and are very much in favor of the policies of this administration, even in face of the opposition of the Bishops. The bishops recognize that the "compromise" involves Church organizations having to pay back the costs to the Insurance companies which will be covering these policies. Self-insured religious bodies will have to still pay for these objectionable procedures. So in theory, nothing has really changed. Studies have shown that widespread use of contraception does not reduce the levels of abortion to any meaningful extent. One has only to take a look at the levels of abortion in US or the UK over 40 years to realize that. In fact, it has been observed that the contraceptive mentality is linked to a rise in abortion due to the latter being used as a fail-save mechanism when contraception does not prevent conception.

• eiriamach | Feb 12, 2012, 06:56 AM EST

  Not rare Gearoid4, as ciara has pointed out, and becoming only more common as many girls enter puberty at age seven and women remain fertile into their fifties! Children are vulnerable to rape, their bodies cannot give birth in any natural way, and when they can carry pregnancies to term, their health and growth are forever impaired. 'Nature' tells us that they are our children, in need of protection, that we must not sacrifice them for the sake of a doctrine which fails to account for the anomalies and abuses of 'Nature.' When you add up all the pregnant children, unnatural (ectopic, etc.) pregnancies, pregnancies with no fetal viability, and life-threatening pregnancies, you see why no single principle can suffice on abortion. BUT abortion is not what the Obama administration's rule is about! It's about contraceptive insurance for women employees. Friday night, the bishops rejected Obama's plan to insure employees of church-affiliated hospitals and agencies without their employers paying for the coverage. The bishops are using Obama's proposal to manipulate the government into making contraceptives difficult and expensive to obtain. I must seriously question their motives when we all know, beyond any doubt, that the surest way to reduce the number of abortions is to have contraception available without any stigma. Only in that way is abortion at all relevant to this discussion.

• Gearoid4 | Feb 11, 2012, 09:09 PM EST

  Eiriamach, I recognize that there are situations, which are thankfully rare, where pregnancies can develop into critical situations where the health of the mother is concerned. These can arise in ectoptic or molar pregnancies and the medical staff involved have to make a critical intervention to try to save the life of the mother as well as the child. The vast majority of abortions are not for such medically identified reasons but rather for "social" reasons when contraception fails or the pregnancy is chalked up as a mistake. The growing fetus is then treated as a problem to be resolved via a brutal termination. Ciara, you work in the Republic of Ireland which is regarded as one of the safest places in the world for mothers to give birth and medical interventions to terminate pregnancies for medical reasons are in reality very rare occurrences. The partisan supporters of abortion are trying to push abortion in the Republic through the "health of the mother" reasoning but neutral observers know that what they are pushing for is abortion on demand.

• ciaradexy | Feb 11, 2012, 05:25 PM EST

  Gearoid, they are not rare! I see about 10 a day! I work in a histopathology lab in the countries busiest maternity hospital. They are extremely common. Whats not ethical is telling a woman who is already born that the life of the unborn is more important than hers.

• eiriamach | Feb 11, 2012, 03:24 PM EST

  That worsening molar or teratoma pregnancy IS "life in the womb." Some of these growths are the kinds of living cells, i.e., cancerous growths, that will kill the women whose bodies they attack if their bodies do not spontaneously abort them or a surgeon does not remove them. I think you meant to refer to "another" life in the womb, Gearoid4, but you cannot do that clearly because a healthy developing embryo or 20-week fetus is completely dependent, for its life, on the uterus it is growing inside. Is an ovum that contains no maternal DNA at all but that has been "fertilized" by a sperm, an ovum that will never develop into a viable child or anything remotely resembling a human being, and is growing like a cancer in a woman's body, "ensouled"? Put that question in your theological pipe and smoke it awhile because there are several more such questions for the theologically inclined.

• Gearoid4 | Feb 11, 2012, 03:04 PM EST

  But Ciara, the fact that there are some potential health risks which are thankfully very rare, does not make it ethical to block or interfere with the development of life in the womb.

• ciaradexy | Feb 11, 2012, 12:03 PM EST

  Gearoid, not all pregnancy leads to a baby. read up on molar pregnancies and teratomas. These are cancers resulting from a pregnancy. Life is not all that can begin at conception.

• Gearoid4 | Feb 11, 2012, 10:20 AM EST

  While acknowledging the clear failings revealed through the sex abuse scandals, I must take issue with the nonsense spouted by this columnist regarding Catholic attitudes to the poor and other topics. What other major religious organization provides the resources that the Catholic Church provides in respect to giving material and spiritual aid to the impoverished social groups in American society. In fact they are the biggest provider of such charitable outreach, outside federal agencies. You look at any major city or town in the US and there you will see soup kitchens and food banks staffed by Catholic religious and lay activists. As I have stated in other comments, pregnancy is not a "health" issue as typical of a cancer or debilitating condition. It is anti-life and when it fails, women are encouraged to resort to the ultimate atrocity which is abortion.

• eiriamach | Feb 11, 2012, 08:58 AM EST

  The NY Times agrees it was a 'manufactured' controversy. Yesterday's editorial says, "it was dismaying to see the president lend any credence to the misbegotten notion that providing access to contraceptives violated the freedom of any religious institution. Churches are given complete freedom by the Constitution to preach that birth control is immoral, but they have not been given the right to laws that would deprive their followers or employees of the right to disagree with that teaching." It's late in the day for RCC to recognize that women act on conscience when they choose to limit their family size. It's time for the RCC to respect the conscience of the vast majority who find its anti-contraceptives teaching morally irresponsible. Republicans still haven't gotten the message either. Sen. Rubio introduced a bill that would allow any employer to discriminate against women by refusing to cover contraceptives, and the GOP candidates are still trying to persuade us that Obama is anti-religion. The bill will fail because the public is now alert to these assaults on women's health care, and they know now that the would-be tyrants are the RCC bishops, not the President or HHS. @Chicago1, I will acknowledge the great good done by Cath. Charities when Cath. Charities and hospitals cease discriminating against women and gays and trying to make that discrimination the law of the land. There's vast harm done by that discrimination, so let's have some balance, please!

• james22 | Feb 11, 2012, 12:33 AM EST

  Money and power are the drivers of catholic policy, which they then dress up as moral issues. Denying contraception for catholics means more catholics and this means more money and power. So moral arguments like protection from Aids or the problems of overpopulation have no relevance in the catholic church's policy making.

• Chicago1 | Feb 11, 2012, 12:10 AM EST

  The Catholic Church and its leaders are not concerned about the poor? Why don't you back up your statements with some facts? The reason you don't hear about the good work that the Church does is because the media chooses not to report it. They wouldn't find it as interesting as a story that slams the Church. Catholic Charities, USA was founded in 1910. In 2010, more than 1,700 agencies, institutions and organizations composed the Catholic Charities network. Nearly 90 cents of every dollar donated to Catholic Charities agencies goes directly to programs and services. In 2008, Catholic Charities agencies served over 8 million individuals. Together, with the local, diocesan-associated Catholic Charities, it is the second largest social service provider in the United States, surpassed only by the federal government. Throughout the centennial year, 2010, Catholic Charities USA worked together with their member agencies to find pathways out of poverty for more people than ever and to draw the country's attention to the people in our country who are struggling to find work and feed their families.