The term 'Black Irish' has commonly been in circulation among Irish emigrants and their descendants for centuries. As a subject of historical discussion the subject is almost never referred to in Ireland. There are a number of different claims as to the origin of the term, none of which are possible to prove or disprove.
'Black Irish' is often a description of people of Irish origin who had dark features, black hair, dark complexion and eyes.
A quick review of Irish history reveals that the island was subject to a number of influxes of foreign people. The Celts arrived on the island about the year 500 B.C.
Whether or not this was an actual invasion or rather a more gradual migration and assimilation of their culture by the natives is open to conjecture, but there is sufficient evidence to suggest that this later explanation is more likely.
The next great influx came from Northern Europe with Viking raids occurring as early as 795 A.D. The defeat of the Vikings at the Battle of Clontarf in the year 1014 by Brian Boru marked the end of the struggle with the invaders and saw the subsequent integration of the Vikings into Irish society. The migrants became 'Gaelicized' and formed septs (a kind of clan) along Gaelic lines.
The Norman invasions of 1170 and 1172 led by Strongbow saw yet another wave of immigrants settle in the country, many of whom fiercely resisted English dominance of the island in the centuries that followed. The Plantation of Ulster in the seventeenth century saw the arrival of English and Scottish colonists in Ulster after the 'Flight of the Earls'.
Each of these immigrant groups had their own physical characteristics and all, with the exception of the Ulster Planters, assimilated to some degree into Irish society, many claiming to be 'more Irish than the Irish themselves!'
The Vikings were often referred to as the 'dark invaders' or 'black foreigners'. The Gaelic word for foreigner is 'gall' and for black (or dark) is 'dubh'.
Many of the invaders families took Gaelic names that utilized these two descriptive words. The name Doyle is in Irish 'O'Dubhghaill' which literally means 'dark foreigner' which reveals their heritage as an invading force with dark intentions.
The name Gallagher is 'O Gallchobhair' which translates as 'foreign help'. The traditional image of Vikings is of pale-skinned blond-haired invaders but their description as 'dark foreigners' may lead us to conclude that their memory in folklore does not just depend on their physical description.
The Normans were invited into Ireland by Dermot McMurrough and were led by the famous Strongbow. Normans are ultimately of French origin where black haired people are not uncommon. As with the Vikings these were viewed as a people of 'dark intentions' who ultimately colonized much of the Eastern part of the country and several larger towns.
Many families however integrated into Gaelic society and changed their Norman name to Gaelic and then Anglo equivalents: the Powers, the Fitzpatricks, Fitzgeralds, Devereuxs, Redmonds.
It is possible that the term 'Black Irish' may have referred to some of these immigrant groups as a way of distinguishing them from the 'Gaels', the people of ultimately Celtic origin.
Another theory of the origin of the term 'Black Irish' is that these people were descendants of Spanish traders who settled in Ireland and even descendants of the few Spanish sailors who were washed up on the west coast of Ireland after the disaster that was the 'Spanish Armada' of 1588.
It is claimed that the Spanish married into Irish society and created a new class of Irish who were immediately recognizable by their dark hair and complexion. There is little evidence to support this theory and it is unlikely that any significant number of Spanish soldiers would have survived long in the war-torn place that was sixteenth century Ireland.
It is striking though how this tale is very similar to the ancient Irish legend of the Milesians who settled in Ireland having traveled from Spain.
The theory that the 'Black Irish' are descendants of any small foreign group that integrated with the Irish and survived, is unlikely. It seems more likely that 'Black Irish' is a descriptive term rather than an inherited characteristic that has been applied to various categories of Irish people over the centuries.
One such example is that of the hundreds of thousands of Irish peasants who emigrated to America after the Great Famine of 1845 to 1849. 1847 was known as 'black 47'. The potato blight which destroyed the main source of sustenance turned the vital food black. It is possible that the arrival of large numbers of Irish after the famine into America, Canada, Australia and beyond resulted in their being labeled as 'black' in that they escaped from this new kind of black death.
Immigrant groups throughout history have generally been treated poorly by the indigenous population (or by those who simply settled first).
Derogatory names for immigrant groups are legion and in the case of those who left Ireland include 'Shanty Irish' and almost certainly 'Black Irish.' It is also possible that within the various Irish cultures that became established in America that there was a pecking order, a class system that saw some of their countrymen labeled as 'black'.
The term 'Black Irish' has also been applied to the descendants of Irish emigrants who settled in the West Indies. It was used in Ireland by Catholics in Ulster Province as a derogatory term to describe the Protestant Planters.
While it at various stages was almost certainly used as an insult, the term 'Black Irish' has emerged in recent times as a virtual badge of honor among some descendants of immigrants. It is unlikely that the exact origin of the term will ever be known and it is also likely that it has had a number of different creations depending on the historical context. It remains therefore a descriptive term used for many purposes, rather than a reference to an actual class of people who may have survived the centuries.
Source: ireland-information.com
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.Beedee | Jul 02, 2012, 03:02 AM EDT
Seriously wondering, do you all live in the past?
oldboreen | Jul 01, 2012, 02:55 PM EDT
Er, wasn't the cartoonist F.Opper American???? Don't believe me? Look it up!
Celtlaw | Jun 22, 2012, 10:59 AM EDT
You say "The Celts arrived in Ireland about the year 500 B.C." Your information is out-dated. The Celts were not a race, but a culture. The inhabitants of Ireland, including my ancestors who have lived in Northwest Ireland since about 7,000 B.C. embraced that culture, which came from Anatolia and Central Europe. There was no invasion or mass migration by an alien race called the Celts. My ancestors, Ireland's original post-Ice Age inhabitants, were dark-haired and dark-eyed, like their close relatives the Basques.
ciaradexy | Jun 17, 2012, 11:59 AM EDT
White people can have red, brown, black or blonde hair. we can have blue, brown, grey, green, hazel eyes and we can be pale or sallow. No one combination of these makes anyone 'more irish' than another but if youre not from ireland, then youre not irish.
JoePatAl | Jun 15, 2012, 10:33 PM EDT
Well, as the son of a "Black" irish Woman, I am well aware of its 'origin.' These folks come from the original settlers of Spain & Portugal. Well before the Armanda event. Afterall, as we should all know - Hibernia and Iberia come form the same root word of those early ancestors who continued the travel Up north to the Island back before the folks were seriously writing history. And yes, we do have A- blood! My mom, grandmother, and sister all share that link. Brother and other sister are closer to my father's Irish folks (looks and blood).
buslane | Jun 11, 2012, 02:35 PM EDT
Hermittalker , you say that the cartoon is "hateful British Propaganda" yet the cartoonist is American and has no link to the British. Why did you say this ?
occassio | Jun 09, 2012, 02:56 PM EDT
Seanmor. Ireland may not have been invaded by black Africans, but whether through war and capture, trade or adventure, Africans most assuredly traveled with Viking raiders in 795 and beyond. There were blacks in and ruling the Roman Empire around 190AD. African Moors were in Southwest Europe during the middle Ages. It is profoundly unfortunate that the true and accurate history of Africans and African-Americans has not been told. Louis Latimer (light bulb), Garret Morgan (3-way traffic signal), Matthew Alexander Henson (Arctic Explorer), Patricia Bath, MD (apparatus for cataract lenses), Ruane Jeter (digital toaster). The greater tragedy is that many African-Americans don’t know their history. This is as much the result of oppression and persecution as was the British treatment of the Irish along with a reductionist and distorted version of Irish history. Read, my friend. Read.
Springfield9 | Jun 09, 2012, 11:52 AM EDT
The Celts (Gauls) were noted by Julius caesar as universally blue eyes. The Norse culture were overwhelmingly blue eyed. The Normans were Vikings with (perhaps a bit of mixing). This article says nothing intelligent on the topic. You might note that the word "dubh" is not simply a color. "Dubh" can mean "dark" in having a quality of ill will.
culchiewoman | Jun 08, 2012, 01:14 PM EDT
Forget the whole Spanish Armada myth (that only accounts for a smattering of cross-bred dark folk in Ireland); forget what we think we know about the Celts, because truthfully, we don't know much about them and that migration is currently under study. For those of us dark Irish with A- blood and other distinctive bone structures, here's the real possibility: Basque migration. And a correction: the surname Fitzpatrick is not of Norman origin. It is the only "Fitz" surname that is of actual Irish origin.
GuinnessGrrl | Jun 08, 2012, 10:54 AM EDT
Many of you forget that your child can be as light as their lightest ancestor or as dark as your darkest. For example, a couple having a red-headed, green-eyed child when neither parent can remember anyone in their family with that coloring, but a grandmother remembers one of her grandparents with red hair. We always joked that my dad was "Black Irish" because he was from Galway, had black hair, green eyes & was pale-skinned until he was out in the sun where he would tan very darkly.
Scottmcgowan | Jun 07, 2012, 02:57 PM EDT
My father and five of his 11 siblings inherited their "Black Irishness" from their mother. However, while they had jet black hair, they were fair-skinned. That was my understanding of what "Black Irish" meant, sans the dark or sallow complexion. I thank the writer for avoiding the myth that the "Black Irish" are the descendants of survivors of the Spanish Armana, most of whom were slain by the Irish when they made it ashore. If the Spanish influence did occur, it was more likely that because of the great trade between Spain and Galway, there was some intermarriage - but certainly not enough to create the "Black Irish." Actually, the Normans were descendants of Vikings who had invaded and settled in France. The people of France are presently a mixture of Celts (the primary people of France when the Romans invaded Gaul), the Vikings who became Normans and Germanic tribes who also invaded France. So, the French are our cousins! Paris is named after the Parisi Celtic tribe. Of course, the people of Brittany are almost 100% Celtic. The above is really common knowledge that I have gleamed by reading about Celts - not because I am a historian, which I am not.
hermitTalker | Jun 07, 2012, 11:58 AM EDT
The cartoon here showed British hateful propaganda, the Missing link of Darwin's theory about human evolution was that was the ape-like (simian) features of the Irish, who is still strangely the same caricature shown on the Notre Dame Fighting Irish mascot. Never knew why thet did not realise that. DOYLE is the black equivalent of McGinley DUBH GALL black foreigner. Donegal has a dominantly B blood type and black hair and short height is dominant there, I plan to pursue that with the DNA project but they were probably Phoenician/ Mediterranean, Semitic. DONEGAL is of course the DUN NA N'GALL, fortress of the foreigner. I heard once of an island people (Tory perhaps) off Donegal who spoke Irish but were from the Mediterranean area and quite suspicious of mainlanders. There was definitely trade and travel with Egypt, which is of course Africa during early Christian days due to persecution in the Eastern Empire; also trade with Celtic areas, including Galicia in Spain, see the Gall root- Paul's letter to the Galatians was to Celts, again the root word, in Asia Minor, today's Turkey.
Silling | Jun 07, 2012, 07:49 AM EDT
The Black Irish were the coal miners at Balingarry.
hughaed | Jun 05, 2012, 09:31 PM EDT
There are many theories about the origin of the "black Irish". My early years were in Donegal & the "black Irish" were the heavy drinkers who were given to easy anger, or they could be those subject to black moods. The author does not seem to have done his research very thoroughly in terms of Vikings. The Norse & the Danish, who made up most of the Vikings were the dark & light foreigners. I have relatives named McGinley, which in Irish is Mag Fhionnghaile, a name associated with the Vikings. All are light haired. Another family name is O'Gallchobhair (Gallagher), associated with "foreign warriors" which is descriptive with no specific point of origin. Although "Donegal" itself is associated with the clan Gallagher well before the O'Donnell clan came to power. According to Patrick Woulfe, the historian of Irish names, the Gallaghers are descended from the 7th century Maolchobha, King of Ireland. Another assertion I would question is the statement that Celts came to Ireland in the 5th century BC. Stephen Oppenheimer's book dealing with genetic history believes the Celts came in much much earlier to Ireland, closer to the date given by Lebor Gabala, the mythic history of Ireland (about 1700 BC). Archaeological discoveries & genetics are giving us a much clearer picture of the early history of Ireland.
bunkerhill | Mar 15, 2012, 04:02 PM EDT
I agree with Searlit as it has long been acknowledged that the Celts were a loose confederation of tribes spread across most of Europe from Russia to Ireland. Celtic red headed mummies have even been found inside the bounderies of China. They were known for their tremendous height still found among many Irish and their descendents worldwide. The Romans are said to have been terrified by their size in Helveti, ancient Switzerland. We have local Irish who are six foot eleven inches, and my wife has red headed Irish relative with women six foot three and men six foot seven. On the History Channel recently they had a derogatory program about huge red headed skeletans found in the Western USA, whose heads were kept hidden in a museum. Why is that I wonder? The Basques are another puzzle as their language is not connected to any other known language. Were they native Americans? Incidentally about 56% of the English have Basque genes and the A-S's invasion is a myth. If you remember your history you will recall that the natives in Central America thought the "white" men were returning "Gods" who had been there long before and told them they would return. They welcomed them unfortunately. This is all a big puzzle but DNA will solve it. My wife's family has a great many tall redheads and her family was predominately fair haired, blue eyed people.
seanomelb | Mar 14, 2012, 07:05 PM EDT
George you unfortunate one day you may find an ingrate who agree with your rantings on IC
ciaradexy | Mar 14, 2012, 05:19 PM EDT
George, seriously, what is wrong with you? Do you have some sort of a mental illness? If you do, then I can understand your constant cr@p talk! I fear for you, I really do! Theres definitely something wrong with you. You are an American and you live in the US, you do not live in Ireland and are not Irish so whats your problem with the Irish? You really hate us dont you! You poor crayter!
GeorgeDillon | Mar 14, 2012, 03:18 PM EDT
joycean: You are quite right. And of course lots of Irish participated in British colonialism. Maybe not as central to the imperialist venture as the Scottish, but important nonetheless. And in our own country some Irish played a disgraceful part in the ethnic cleansing and slaughter of the Plains Indians. The poster Peterman hasn't read any history, so I'd suggest this is where he might start--a biography of General Phil Sheridan, the Mass Murderer.
GeorgeDillon | Mar 14, 2012, 03:14 PM EDT
Peterman: Just what part of my post were you unable to understand, you moron? Tell me, and I'll try to spell it out in monosyllables for you. I bet you're sorry now you were such a dumb student in high school.
Searlit | Mar 14, 2012, 12:58 AM EDT
Just a point here. The Celtic tribes were spread out all across Europe, that includes Spain. Before the Moors invaded, Spain was was inhabited by some of these Celtic tribes. The Celts were also in Gaul. Caesar invaded Gaul and captured the King of all the European Celts, Vercengetorix. Is there any wonder that there would be such variations in the complexions of Celtic people, since they were plentiful from the Black sea all the way to the western Europrean coasts?
PolinDeB | Mar 13, 2012, 10:58 PM EDT
As for Australia... I live there in Sydney.. maybe Perth is having some problems.. but most people here like the Irish cos they work hard.
PolinDeB | Mar 13, 2012, 10:57 PM EDT
Wow.. lots of fun happening down there... As someone who's considered black irish, it currently just means you can get a tan ;0 It's not insulting.. it's a little who was your great granny ... ;) As for slaves from africa.. we've got lots of real African Irish now.. but the fact that very little of Brehon laws applied to Slaves - not how they were treated but transactions... seems to indicate they didn't play a huge part in Irish life. Given that there were no large scale crops such as cotton that would justify massive amounts of slavery, this seems to ring true. As for all the rest.. yep we did bad things.. in America and in Australia.. maybe even in Ireland.. its good to admit that.. but lets concentrating in being a good race of people in the future...
Peterman | Mar 13, 2012, 10:30 PM EDT
GeorgeDillion I'm not justifying anything but your stupidity. You allege Irish atrocities against who even knows and nobody here yet has read fully any one of your posts because there so far off into fantasy land. Did your prescription for your psychotropic meds run out George? Should we take up a collection to refill the script?
docjeep | Mar 13, 2012, 10:08 PM EDT
Many Native American Tribes, especially the Cherokee would sometimes call themselves Black Irish to avoid the discrimination against Indians the early and middle 1800's. There were many Irishmen living and trading with the Indians in this era, many of whom married into the tribe or had both a white wife and and Indian wife. Being Black Irish would get an Indian more respect and possible jobs or trading rights with White settlements and military forts. Being Indian would just get you shot.
GeorgeDillon | Mar 13, 2012, 04:43 PM EDT
Bunkerhill: Congratulations. You have written the stupidest post of the week. Collect your prize by logging onto the site amadancruthanta dot ie.
GeorgeDillon | Mar 13, 2012, 04:41 PM EDT
bunkerhill: "I feel sorry for you that you have such negative feelings about your own people." ---- That's utter garbage. Maybe you should see a psychiatrist. If you want to find negative opinions about their own people, go ask the Irish in Ireland. They have such low self-essteem that they are IMPORTING vast numbers of foreigners to take over their country. Tbey are EXPORTING their own young, while IMPORTING young Russians, Chinese, Paks, Poles etc. In fact many of the Irish think that foreign migrants are smarter than them, more honest, harder working, better lovers, cleaner etc. etc. Go ask these stupid Irish about "negative feelings", you idiot.
Gearoid71 | Mar 13, 2012, 03:54 PM EDT
At the outset let me be clear: I am Irish, fair-skinned, fair hair, green eyes. Not terribly Irish you might say, but I am descended from the Norman de Burgos and the Christian names in our family reflect this. When discussing the colour of Irish people don't neglect to look at simple things such as music, as the origin of the bagpipes, oileann pipes, is North Africa and some of "our music" is eerily similar to some old tunes still played across North Africa today; why, I wonder? Also, the traditional clothing worn by women on the Aran islands, off the west coast, has it's closet match in North Africa. But,perhaps this is merely coincidental.
Madeliene | Mar 13, 2012, 02:59 PM EDT
George Dillon read your Irish History the Irish were slaves before the Blacks the blacks were brought over by the English because the Irish could not take the sun it is long hard story and a true lone read your Irish history!
Madeliene | Mar 13, 2012, 02:56 PM EDT
they are the ones witht he black hair and the blue eyes but I had an old aunt from Ireland whom the neighbors thought was the "colored" cleaning lady she was so dark ( and beautiful) so???
charlieweir | Mar 13, 2012, 11:46 AM EDT
There is an actual and scientifically documented likelihood for the origin of the "Black Irish". The earlier inhabitants of the British Isles, those responsible for Newgrange, Skara Brae, Stonehenge etc., were descendants of the Hunter-Gatherers of Europe directly from Spain and northern France, and came at the end of the Ice Ages, around 8000 years ago. As such these persons had a range of colouration due to their inter-mingling for the previous 10,000 or so years in these areas of Europe (even living near Neanderthals for some of that time). These people had both ends of the spectrum, pale and fair to dark hair and eyes, with the second probably dominant. And these earlier peoples are seen among all the "Celtic" people of modern Britain and Ireland. Look at Sean Connery, a native Edinburghian, dark eyed takes a tan - probably some Pictish ancestry, they were earlier and darker than the Celts. Of the Welsh, think of Tom Jones and Catherine Zeta Jones, both of whom are quite dark, also representing the "black" Celts or native "British". Genetics have isolated a set of common Celtic genes, and a further set of Pictish markers. Recent works have shown this, not the Spanish Armada or other invasion is the likely explanation: just one extreme of the native genetics. Incidentally, it has become popular, even in Ireland to attribute the red hair to Viking genetics. The reverse is true - it is rare in Viking or German genetics as elsewhere in Europe. The reason Erik the Red was "red" is due to captive Irish grandmothers on both sides of his lineage. The incidence of red hair is greatest, in order, with the Scots (about 10%), the Irish, and the Welsh. Whatever derogatory comments were made about the Black Irish, they were just darker Irish, and natives. And we should be proud of the expressions of the British (not English, who were German peoples) genetics and unique beauty.
joycean | Mar 13, 2012, 11:19 AM EDT
George, I've read Akerson, and I agree with his premise that the Irish, as inhabitants of a country which was not one of Europe's colonial powers, have fallen into the revisionist historical trap of holding themselves unaccountable for the world's past. He debunks that sense of Irish rightousness by pointing out that individual Irishmen, when given the opportunity, have behaved as badly as any one else.
catherineu | Mar 13, 2012, 09:58 AM EDT
My family both in Ireland and here in the states share the same coloring. Fair skinned and pitch black hair. One of my Donegal friends refers to me as a "gypsy" because of my coloring *shrug*. whatever. The only explanation I've ever known for "black irish" is the landing of the Spanish Armada in the South of Ireland. Hence the black irish. Maybe a legend. Maybe true. Black hair, blonde hair, red hair, freckles, fair skinned, darker skinned, the Irish and their descendants are still the best looking folks I've ever come across!
GeorgeDillon | Mar 13, 2012, 04:57 AM EDT
Peterman: What you write is nonsense. You justify torture and abuse by Irish on the grounds that the Irish were also abused. That's garbage. Death Rows are full of guys who were abused, but no court will accept that as giving license to kill. And you seem to be ignorant of history. The Irish were never abused by African slaves.
GeorgeDillon | Mar 13, 2012, 04:54 AM EDT
Hey seanomel, I was reading about that Australian employer who put out a Help Wanted ad but with the proviso: No Irish need apply. He must have got his negative ideas about the Irish from some bad experience with them. Maybe you worked for him for a while?
Peterman | Mar 12, 2012, 11:13 PM EDT
To GeorgeDillon, what you need to be apologizing for is claiming any relation at all to Irish people. While you're handing out apologies, please see if you can get an apology for the 50,000 Irish that were enslaved and sent to Barbados in 1649 by Cromwell so that the English landowners there could breed them with their black slaves for a more pleasing concubine. Those unfortunate Irish were often stolen on the road by using what's called a "mantrap". They were put into shackles jammed into boats and "barbadosed". They wore kilts and their pale skin fried in the Barbados sun. Most met miserable deaths, many survived and interbred. Their descendants both black and white live today in Barbados. The white descendents are known as "redlegs" Read "To Hell or Barbados" by O'Callaghan if you think I'm making any of this up. With all they getting, get understanding.
Peterman | Mar 12, 2012, 11:00 PM EDT
The "celtic invasion" of Ireland is a myth. Irish are a mix of people and if you're looking for the Origins of Irish, at least western Irish, look to the Basque areas of the Iberian Peninsula and if you want to go further, to North Africa. The Basque male DNA is 98% that of western Irish men. By western I mean those not anglo Irish and or heavily Norman Irish. The culture of the Basque areas, such as San Sebastian is very similar to other Celtic nations.
seanomelb | Mar 12, 2012, 07:35 PM EDT
"dud"Dillon The St.Pats festival committee (Melbourne) hold their Irish cultural day on the Sunday before the 17th (last Sunday been that day). As a committee member I'm sad to inform you that we had about 3500 people in the park.No drunken behavior no police presence no drugs.I know this may come as a disappointment to you and may cause you to slit your wrists but given your limited intelligence you would probably hack away with blunt side of the knife anyway.
Bridget Quinn | Mar 12, 2012, 07:06 PM EDT
I have dark brown hair that is so dark that it looks black sometimes and blue eyes and fair skin. My father said our ancestors where from both Cork and Mayo. So what am I?
CathalCav | Mar 12, 2012, 06:27 PM EDT
For MargaretI The Ormonds are a sept from Tipperary - Waterford- Cork (in Irish Ó Ruaidh from "red"in Irish). Unfortunately you need to have some indication of place of family origin as the Ormonds are fairly numerous and widely spread.If you had some idea of this, Griffiths Valuation (online e.g. via Failte Romhat) dating from around 1845 would be a good starting point if the family emigrated after the famine years.Prior to that the 1825 Tithe Applotment records give a partial overview of the population, but are only partially online. The Irish Heritage Foundation can be accessed online, but be WARNED that unless you know the family ancestral townland it will not help. There are some other possible but very partial sources and by and large if you do not have a starting point for the ancestral family home location it is extremely difficult to pinpoint the ancestral family. I hope that I am not too discouraging but I am being realistic; i have been round the circle on this.
CathalCav | Mar 12, 2012, 05:08 PM EDT
I perhaps should add two further nuances. The Northern Wexford Redmonds (Mac Réamoinn) were a branch of the K/Cavanaghs (the MacDavymores or Macamores) and were not Norman; only the Southern Wexford Redmonds were of Norman origin. Also the first mercenaries who arrived under Strongbow (mostly in 1169) were a mixture of Norman, Welsh and Flemish adventurers from South Wales. Diarmaid McMurrough was under the misimpression that he could fob them off with land in South Wexford, which he did not control, as a reward for helping him regain his kingdom of Leinster. But he reckoned without the acquisitiveness of the Normans and the fact that Henry II had already programmed an invasion of Ireland more than a decade earlier in 1155 when he asked the only English Pope for his blessing to invade; this resulted in the controversial "Laudabiliter Bull", of which no original has ever been found and which the Normans only brandished 20 years later ; in fact the only suposed text of this comes from the unreliable Giraldus Cambrensis, monk 3/4 Welsh and a nephew of the FitzGeralds and their other Fitz half brothers . What we know is that our Irish ancestors spoke a Celtic language as did the Welsh; there is however considerable controversy as to when Celtic (Gaelic version) became the spoken language of Ireland and the general opinion now is that "Celtic" is not a definition of race but of CULTURE. Clearly the Basques do not have Celtic culture but recent(TCD) studies apparently indicate that they and other northern Spaniards share DNA origins with most of the Irish population. I do not pretend to know the scientific story behind that fact, but it is fascinating that the ancient Milesian origin legend appears to have some modern scientific backing.
bunkerhill | Mar 12, 2012, 05:00 PM EDT
For GeorgeDillon, I feel sorry for you that you have such negative feelings about your own people. Believe it or not it is not uncommon as many nationalities share a contempt for their forbears. Surely there has to be a reason for your seemingly deep seated feelings and there are other Irish like you. Given that fact, I am curious about what caused your tremendous negativity. I feel you must have been hurt in some way. For Margaret1, I would suggest getting in touch with the Irish Heritage program and wish you good luck.
margaret1 | Mar 12, 2012, 04:22 PM EDT
Can anyone help me find the John and Margaret Ormond family origins in Ireland who are believed to have left Ireland in the late 1840s and, ultimately, ended up in the New York? So far, no luck with ancestry.com because the Ormond clan was so large. My husband and I would like to visit Ireland and go to the town my ancestors are from. Thank you very much.
GeorgeDillon | Mar 12, 2012, 03:47 PM EDT
The Irish story on Montserrat is no pleasant tropical idyll. They were actually cruel and vicious slaveowners. For details, read Donald Akenson's book "If The Irish Ruled The World". I knew a guy from Montserrrat (name of McArty) some years back. Couldn't meet a nicer guy. I had to apologize to him for the horrors--murder, mutilation, castration, slavery-- that the Irish dished out to his ancestors. Come to think of it, I seem to spend a lot of time apologizing for the Irish! Next up now is to apologize for the Irish drunkfest that St Patrick's Day has become, in Ireland and elsewhere. Lucky there isn't a wider readership of this web site, otherwise I'd have to apologize for nuts like seanomel, madcolgan, ciaradildo etc.
GeorgeDillon | Mar 12, 2012, 03:36 PM EDT
ILiveinCork: "Celtic Basque territory of northern Spain". The Basques are not Celtic.
GeorgeDillon | Mar 12, 2012, 03:35 PM EDT
Go Raibh Maith Agat, a bantaxed. I wasn't going to waste my time correcting that fool rocknreel--aka Knucklehead--but I am obliged to you anyway. What odds that particular dumbell will be man enough to apologize for his ignorant attack?
bunkerhill | Mar 12, 2012, 03:03 PM EDT
To "ILiveinCork" I can understand your fury, along with everyone else's at seeing these distorted cartoons. In actuality, the Irish immigrants dominated the NYC Police and Fire Dept until the 1960's because there was a six foot tall requirement and so many Irish were so tall. At that time they were also predominently fair haired, blue eyed people and the Black Irish had black hair, brown eyes and very white skin, usually found in the Clare - Galway area. They truly did stand out. I think Irish Central has opened up a wonderful dialogue because the "powers that profited" from these awful cartoons also distorted history to make themselves look good. To "ancavker" names are distorted over the centuries but Costello can be found in Italy, along with Maroney (Maroni) Maloney (Miloni) and Rory (Rua), and Italy and Spain had a great deal of interaction. Has anyone every looked into the name similarity of red headed Columbus, and the Irish Columba and Columbanus? Did you know that the Basques speak a language that cannot be connected to any known language on earth and were the earliest known sailors? Did you know that the remains of very tall "red heads" have been found in prehistoric America and their skulls have been hidden in a museum. Do you know that there never was a "tall, blond master race." We have all been fooled but I think Irish Central has opened a dialogue that will benefit all people.
ILiveInCork | Mar 12, 2012, 01:37 PM EDT
I think this article is the worst thrown together thing I've ever seen. clearly the cartoon is in the same vein as the Victorian "ape" Irish caricature's done in the English press. Basically cartoons done in broadsheets done to demean Irish people and their culture to give English people a sense of superiority. Most colonial powers used the same techniques when reporting on their African colonies to give off the sense that Africa cant run itself and didn't have any societal structures before European superpowers robbed the land off the natives, or for the Irish Americans on here how the British and french robbed vast territories of land of the native Americans to form the united states. basically giving the attributes of barbarism and lack of intelligence to a certain ethnic group. the cartoon is clearly to promote the idea that the irish are just as unintelligble as the "blacks" from Africa. we studied these cartoons(in Irish history, in the Irish education system) as part of the tools of the colonial powers to try cut nations people from having empathy of slaves or colonized territories by encouraging people to view the Irish how you would view a domestication animal such as a dog or horse. So no there is no "black Irish" the closest thing to even it being genetically "black" would be the 1/3 of the country with a genetic link to the Celtic Basque territory of northern Spain and even then they would be still fair skinned or because of both the Irish and African community's having to live in the squalor and lowest level of american society in the 1800s the two community's mingling and having children.
CathalCav | Mar 12, 2012, 01:02 PM EDT
This article contains a number of factual errors. FitzPatrick (Mac Giolla Phadraig) is a native =irish name, not a Norman one.The battle of Clontarf was between the Northern Leinster clans and Brian Boru; there were Vikings on both sides. DNA studies show that the Ulster plantation did not change the overall DNA; the mainly Scots were of the same origin as the natives.The Normans ("Northmen") were of Viking origin allowed to settle in France. DNA studies indicate a northern Spanish origin for most of the Irish, as recounted in the legend of the Milesians.
CathalCav | Mar 12, 2012, 12:54 PM EDT
The article contains a number of factual errors.FitzPatrick is a
margaret1 | Mar 12, 2012, 12:53 PM EDT
As we know, here in the U.S. people with dark skin are Black Americans and, so, I do wonder if people with dark skin may very well have been the Black Irish. On another note, my Irish ancestral name is Ormond. Does anyone know where the John Ormond (married to Margaret) family may have hailed from just prior to the Irish immigration to America in the 1840s?
ancavker | Mar 12, 2012, 11:15 AM EDT
If there was any real Spanish or Portuguese settlement in Ireland either through trade with the west coast of Ireland, or remnants of the Spanish Armada, than I would think that they would have left some surnames behind, and as far as I know there aren't any.
ancavker | Mar 12, 2012, 11:13 AM EDT
ciara: All races are a mix; Ithink most people on this site realize that.
ancavker | Mar 12, 2012, 11:10 AM EDT
warlocks: Every country in Europe is a melting pot!! Even more so on the continent where it was much easier to move around, as opposed to an island like Ireland.
ancavker | Mar 12, 2012, 11:07 AM EDT
Fitzpatrick is the only Fitz name not of Norman origin. It was anglicized to Fitzpatrick around the time of Henry VIII.
bantaxed | Mar 11, 2012, 08:20 PM EDT
Hey rocknreel, there's nothing wrong with georgedillons geography. The coast of Leitrim sits between Bundoran, Donegal to the north and Mullaghmore, Sligo to the south
seanomelb | Mar 11, 2012, 07:37 PM EDT
I was educated in Ireland you lacklustre piece of S..t. Gorm is blue Fear is man the moors who raided Ireland wore blue robes they were probably part of the Tuareg clans in Nth Africa who were renowned for their deep blue robes.Fhios tusa fear mhallacht ufasach agus taid cheann bhioran. If you read the history of the moors and their raids on the coasts of Spain,France,Cornwall and Ireland you might learn something amadan.You may return to your Google language class you poor unfortunate.
RockNReel | Mar 11, 2012, 06:12 PM EDT
George Dillon, and where would you find the Leitrim Coast I wonder ? Maybe they moved Leitrim inland since then ? Geography not your strong point then ?
pmccaffrey | Mar 11, 2012, 05:22 PM EDT
I have always been told that black Irish have very fair skin, light coloured eyes, and coal black hair.
Searlit | Mar 11, 2012, 04:47 PM EDT
I still think the Dubh & Fionn relate to the hair color. If you read the Irish myths which are very ancient, they refer to the individuals this way. @Carrickcourt, from what I've read, Powers came from De Poer which may have been an addition to the name that was taken by knights who had sworn themselves to poverty.
kaochs1947 | Mar 11, 2012, 04:41 PM EDT
I had the YDNA run on both my most current Irish lines the McCann's and Corrigans. The DNA for both shows they came from Iberian which is Spain and Portugal. Although, we have a ton of red heads, My mother had black hair and brown eyes. I am connected to the European Celts through the ones in Spain. I think- and it is only an opinion that the Black Irish are from one of the spanish connections. I wonder how many Irish have done their DNA and found the same.
bunkerhill | Mar 11, 2012, 04:08 PM EDT
The vikings as sailors are a very overrated group and I doubt they ever got even a fraction as far as the related royals in Europe would have us believe. Shades of the big, blond master race another myth. Also a surprising number of Scandinavians are dark, even to dark skin. It has now been proven the Icelanders are about half Irish which they always claimed. In the past the royals of Scandinavians called them liars but now DNA has proven the Icelanders right. If the Gaels could sail to the Hebrides why not Iceland? In our American History books we were taught that the "Vikings" were the first to sail on the North Atlantic in the 700's. Then how do you account for the ancient history of Ireland. My historian father-in-law said many Scandinavians were brought back by Irish seafarers who found them starving either due to war or famine. And yes after five hundred years of occupation the Romans did leave descendents along with the Latin language. English is about 60% Latin. There were no countries in those days, only tribes moving around looking for places to live. I would imagine it was very cold up north.
hooligan6a | Mar 11, 2012, 04:08 PM EDT
Afro-Vikings, interesting. May have been the original Black&Tans.
occassio | Mar 11, 2012, 02:27 PM EDT
Posted without the link. Richard Cahill. Regarding the Irish in Montserrat. In Boston, MA., the Irish Immigration Center and the Montserrat Aspirers meet annually to celebrate and appreciate cultural awareness. Montserrat is one of only two or three countries that observe St. Patrick’s Day as a public holiday. Seanmor. While Ireland was never invaded by blacks, there were blacks who arrived with Vikings before Brian Boru was born (prox. 941). Aside from the Viking travels in Ghana and other areas on Africa’s west coast, Spain and the Mediterranean, and raids from 795 until about 980, I don’t know if blacks came as slaves or as willing accomplices. Neither do I know if they remained and intermarried or if they returned to Scandinavia or their own homelands. However, I would be interested in reading available research.
GeorgeDillon | Mar 11, 2012, 07:47 AM EDT
seanomelb: What is it with you? You know no Irish, yet that doesn't stop you from offering an utterly dopey theory about "Fear Gorm". Have some respect for the language, you moron.
GeorgeDillon | Mar 11, 2012, 07:43 AM EDT
McColgan-A racist fool like you couldn't even recognize the Irish language. Andyes, it's Irish, you Moron McColgan, not "Gaelic". You stupid piece of racist garbage.
GeorgeDillon | Mar 11, 2012, 07:40 AM EDT
warlocks: If you have information about a Roman settlement in Ireland, you should tell the rest of us, since there is absolutely no historical evidence to that effect. As to the article, it's good to see it refuting the stupid myth--advanced on this site from time to time--that the few Spanish soldiers who survived the wreck of the Armada immediately got busy having multiple sex partners with the local cailini. I am surprised that no one seems to be aware of de Cuellar's memoir--he was with the Armada and was washed ashore on the Leitrim coast, if I remember correctly. His one goal, once he dried himself out and thanked God for his good fortune in still being alive, was to get away as fast as he could from the "savages" of Western Ireland. Nowhere did he write about how cute he thought the Connaught women.
upsceach | Mar 11, 2012, 06:29 AM EDT
A Pharoah and 10000 followers came to Ireland to escape her brother and was burried in west kerry. I read that story at national school years ago. I forget where exactly in Kerry she was burried. And the Spanish traders and smugglers married into the locals in western Ireland. My father once told me when he was young in Cill Ronan, Inis Mor that some of the locals were fluent in Spanish and Gaelann. So take your pick
warlocks | Mar 11, 2012, 01:48 AM EST
Well as my great grandfather once said . there is no true Irish Race. they came from every country in Europe. Ireland was a melting pot before the U.S.A existed Even the Romans were there a very short time and left artifacts. they came they looked and left.
Seanmor | Mar 10, 2012, 08:15 PM EST
Ireland was never invaded by black Africans and vey few of that race lived there pror to about 20 years ago.
hughaed | Mar 10, 2012, 06:43 PM EST
Some of the information in this article is out of date. Genetic studies by Stephen Oppenheimer indicates that neolithic settlers were farming in Ireland, as well as pre-anglo saxon England about 8000 - 10,000 years ago and that the vast majority of the peoples of the British Isles & Ireland are descendants of these original people since the glaciers retreated 10,000 years ago. Genetic studies also indicate that the Celts came from the Basque areas as well as southern France & northern Spain about 3500 years ago (1500 BC). Most historical texts have maintained in the past that the Celts came from Southern Germany in about 500 BC basing their information on the Hallstatt Culture. This view is no longer viable due to recent genetic studies which are a more accurate resource. As Stephen Oppenheimer observes, the mythological (Celtic historical) record is far closer to the genetic results. With this in mind it is most likely that Celts were similar to the Vikings, Norman French & the English in that they were a warrior aristocracy that overlay the older inhabitants who were the farmers & artisans. As Oppenheimer observes in his books the so-called "wipeout" theory no longer holds true in England or Ireland. All the invaders were absorbed into much older cultures.
MCCOLGAN1492 | Mar 10, 2012, 06:30 PM EST
Thanks for the info, work with a few men who throw gaelic insults around like darts....Always good to learn a little of your adversaries lingo.....Very hard language to understand, laughter however is the universal language!!!
hallfitz | Mar 10, 2012, 06:02 PM EST
Fitzpatrick is not a Norman name but the anglicisation of Mac Giolla Phadraig. Fitzpatrick is the only FITZ name that is not Norman.
seanomelb | Mar 10, 2012, 04:55 PM EST
Fear Gorm referred to the robes worn by the moors when they took slaves from Ireland, nothing to do with skin.
joycean | Mar 10, 2012, 04:33 PM EST
ciaradexy, an "ethnic " group and a racial group are not the same. BTW, 2007, was the 400th anniversary of the first English settlement in North America, that makes the Normans, Vikings, and others, much older in Ireland, and the Ulster Plantations about the same age. When I was a child, my father told me that people with his name (Normans) had lived in Ireland for almost 1000 years, and I was deeply impressed. No white people have been on this continent that long. The Spanish didn't arrive until 1492 which is why your argument makes little sense to Americans.
joan1954 | Mar 10, 2012, 04:31 PM EST
My mom was light skinned, black hair and blue eyes while my grandmother was dark haired, we think dark brown, light skinned and blue eyes, my Irish-born great-grandmother was auburn haired in her youth and blue eyes.
richard cahill | Mar 10, 2012, 04:01 PM EST
Sorry Hermittalker Gorm is blue NOT brown
richard cahill | Mar 10, 2012, 03:56 PM EST
Hi! mccolgan below. Believe it or not the Irish (Gaeilge) for a black man is "fear gorm" [blue man]. I will venture a guess that this is because western african people were "so" black to the first Irish people that they seemed "blue" (like the blue tinge on a magpie in the sun!!
richard cahill | Mar 10, 2012, 03:43 PM EST
The Black Irish of Montserrat is most likely what informed Irish people might assume is being referred to here. Few remember the "emigration" of Irish people grant aided!! by the late unlamented Oliver Cromwell. These Irish intermarried with the natives of Montserrat and their offspring were black. An interesting by-product of this period is that there is a disernable Irish accent still to be heard among the people of Montserrat.[The diaspora is more interesting than one can believe?]
bunkerhill | Mar 10, 2012, 02:32 PM EST
Great article!!! My wife stood out in her Irish family from Clare, Ireland, having black hair, brown eyes and very white skin. Both sides of her family were puzzled as they were all blue eyed blonds and redheads. There are now a few descendents with black hair but the brown eyes have disappeared. My father-in-law passed on that his family were Danes and in later centuries they incorporated a great many Norman names. I do agree with Retired US Naval Admiral Samuel Eliot Morrison that the dark haired, brown eyed Irish were probably the result of the Spanish and Portuguese trade route to Ireland (Galway City), Norway and Iceland. However there was no dark skin in my wife's very large extended family. There were however a great many very tall redheads in the Clare, Galway area and I find that intriguing. Recently a show on the History Channel showed a Pharoah with red hair. It also occurs to me that given the ice age most northerners had to move up from the south. Ireland is still filled with mystery yet to be uncovered. Incidentally it was easy for people to communicate because Latin was a second language. By the way, along the same lines, it has been discovered that very few English are descended from Saxons.
greensod | Mar 10, 2012, 01:17 PM EST
There seems to be a whole lot of guess work going on on this one.Well lets consider this fact,at the moment research in progress and by no means complete,is showing that the Celtic nomads may not have ever set foot on Irish soil.If this is proven it would sure change a whole lot.For starters no Celtic Tiger,just another big lie.I reccomend one grain of salt with every story told about Ireland.
pilib04 | Mar 10, 2012, 11:31 AM EST
Examples of language connections to Phoenicia (Canaan) PHOENICIAN OF PLAUTUS: Byth lym mo thym nociothii nel ech an ti daisc machon Ys i do iebrim thyfe lyth chy lya chon temlyph ula. EARLY IRISH-CELTIC: Beth liom' mo thime nociaithe, niel ach an ti dairie mae coinne Is i de leabhraim tafach leith, chi lis con teampluibh ulla.
pilib04 | Mar 10, 2012, 11:27 AM EST
The was a book written about 100 years ago (whose title I cannot remember) and it compared Gaelic to Arabic and Hebrew. Both the old Gaelic alphabet and the many similar pronunciations for the same words. Ancient trading routes between Ireland and Phoenicia could explain the similarities.
pilib04 | Mar 10, 2012, 11:23 AM EST
Black Irish later came to describe those Irish deportees to Jamaica who were able to escape to the mountains and intermarry with African slaves. Their priests followed them as did their Gaelic language. In the PBS special (many years ago) The History of the English Language, an entire segment was devoted to the Gaelic language in Jamaica.
hermitTalker | Mar 10, 2012, 10:47 AM EST
mccolgan FEAR DUBH is black man but the proper Irish word for the ethnic colour black is GORM, actually brown. DUBH GALL for black foreigner is also correct as noted above, and McGinley is mc fionn gaille, son of the BLONDE, FAIR foreigner
hermitTalker | Mar 10, 2012, 10:42 AM EST
The male in the cartoon was part of BRITISH propaganda against agitation for IRISH freedom in the USA. This is an ape-like character, a caricature of the traditional LEPRECHAUN. to show that the missing link between pre-human life was the Irish. Notre Dame university uses this caricature as its symbol for football. In this case there is no doubting the racism and hatred toward the Irish, with the booze bottle empty The Normans were descendants of Vikings, Norsemen.
MCCOLGAN1492 | Mar 10, 2012, 09:41 AM EST
What is the actual meaning of "fair dove"?(sp?) Black Man?? Is it used with a negative connotation?
carrickcourt | Mar 10, 2012, 09:20 AM EST
My Irish third cousin has the Power surname but I do not think he could be called "Black Irish" as he has red hair and a fair complexion. I suspect my cousin might have a bit of Viking in his ancestry perhaps?
ciaradexy | Mar 10, 2012, 09:05 AM EST
Finally someone has written an article that proves the irish are a mix of races and are not a single 'ethnic' group like many on this site seem to think!