Oliver Cromwell used it as his excuse to rape and pillage Ireland, but the 1641 ‘massacre’ of Protestants by Catholics during the Irish rebellion likely never happened.
New research by the University of Aberdeen in Scotland claims to have unveiled the real truth about Protestant settlers during the 1641 Irish rebellion -- contrary to previously held beliefs, the settlers, numbering in the thousands, were not massacred by the Irish during the rebellion.
The research is based on 8,000 witness statements, known as the 1641 Depositions, that were digitized by Trinity College in Dublin last year. These depositions prompted the notorious Oliver Cromwell to subsequently take revenge on Ireland and commence a brutal military campaign there, but Aberdeen researchers say that the depositions were based on “hearsay” as opposed to hard facts.
The researchers questioned the use of “the depositions as evidence, pinpointing hearsay as a basis for testimony and demonstrating that many of the most atrocious incidents were reported second or even third-hand more often than in the first person.”
The depositions alleged that women and children were massacred by the Irish during the 1641 rebellion, but the digitization of the depositions, researchers say, reveals new truths.
"One of the iconic narratives that comes up in hearsay evidence is reports of atrocities against pregnant women who were said to have been ripped open, had their babies pulled out and beaten against rocks," said Dr Mark Sweetnam, a scholar who has studied the texts.
"That image is drawing on biblical prophecy ... and contemporary accounts of European massacres.
"It's very striking that it crops up regularly in hearsay accounts but I never came across an example of it in eyewitness evidence.
"While these depositions were being taken, they were being leaked and published in London with the clear intention that they would elicit the sympathy of English Protestants."
The rebellion of October 1641, was an attempt to drive Protestant settlers off Catholic land. It had massive impact on Ireland through the centuries.
Software from IBM adapted 19,000 pages of depositions, and showed that words like “believeth” and “thinketh” were used far more than more definitive declarations like “saw” and “witnessed.”
“We have been able to show that there are significant differences between the use of words and phrases meaning ‘heard’ as opposed to ‘saw’ when it comes the worst atrocities reported within the depositions, such as an act of cannibalism and many of the more infamous events,” said forensic linguist Dr. Nicci MacLeod.
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.arkleone | Mar 09, 2011, 01:48 PM EST
why cant the catholic church admit the murder of protestants in ireland which sometimes carried the papel bull
citizen69 | Feb 25, 2011, 11:23 AM EST
Actually, experts did NOT say it was 'fiction' as described in this headline but that a lot of the dispositions was hearsay. Were in this article did the experts say a massacre did not happen?? Thousands of people were murdered but not the 100s of thousands as claimed in propaganda at the time. I'm sure if this was about a catholic massacre IrishCental.com would be a lot more accurate with their headlines... but then Patrick O'Brien probably doesn't regard protestants as 'real' Irish.
Towngate | Feb 24, 2011, 05:23 PM EST
OLLY WAS A MANIC DEPRESSIVE: Having fought to overcome his poor health trying and knock Democracy into the Parliament of the Big Island, it is understandable that he was not going to be as patient with the paddies next door. WE all brag about our Precious Democracy and forget how many people we have killed trying to impose it! ~ ~ ~ If it wasn't for Cromwell we would still be bowing and scraping to our Royal Masters Ruling by Devine Right! Irish voters,don't forget to exercise the right he fought to get for you! Go out and VOTE!
FallsRNat | Feb 23, 2011, 07:06 PM EST
well to the victors go the spoils & a chance to rewrite history from their point of view, this has occurred throughout history & continues in irish history as well
Sparklet | Feb 23, 2011, 03:48 PM EST
Sounds logical to me. Not unlike what still happens in this day and age. Surprised recently to meet people (Irish) who actually admire Cromwell and what he achieved.
FallsRNat | Feb 23, 2011, 03:08 PM EST
as noted by shankill below, a very selective part of the actual statement was produced, the argument seems to be that only 4,000-12,000 were killed instead of 20,000. The purile comments of the RC church also make the case for a holy war against the prods. of course to most republicans the prods have never be acceptable as 'irishmen', wolfe must be spinning in his grave, not that it won't be floated down the shannon once the PIRA UI is in force, or he maybe the last prod in ireland. RA needs to have everybody believing that the 1641 massacres didn't occur, because, everyone around the world are ignorant of the prods being persecuted before the 26 county republic came into being
elektros | Feb 22, 2011, 08:21 PM EST
I'm an atheist, but I'm sure if there were a hell, then Cromwell would be there
seanomelbourne | Feb 22, 2011, 05:13 PM EST
Therefore there is not enough proof to say it didn't happen and if that is the case the presumption of innocents is paramount.
sirpeter | Feb 22, 2011, 04:42 PM EST
seanomelbourne..All I'm saying is there is not enough proof to say it didn't happen..It is understood that it did happen. You can jump to conclusions that they were falsified..I don't think so..I don't see any proof that they didn't happen..As an Irish nationalist, I'm not going to take away a protestant massacre without solid proof.I'm after the truth and there is not enough proof.Ulster Unionist's have their grievances too and to undermine what is at the moment historically true would be wrong.
shankillboy | Feb 22, 2011, 04:00 PM EST
Academics from the University of Aberdeen have been given a £334,000 grant to examine the depositions of English and Scottish settlers about the masscre of Protestants in Ulster in 1641. The 4,000 depositions are held in Trinity College Dublin and describe the events of that terrible time. The historians will use cutting-edge software to examine and cross-reference names, places, words and phrases in an effort to establish just how many people were murdered. The most recent estimates put the figure at between 4,000 and 12,000. There can be no doubt that the Irish rebels had a sectarian motivation. Writing on 7 December 1641 Father Hugh Bourke, at that time commisary of the Irish Friars Minor in Germany and Belgium, admitted that the war was ‘begun solely in the interest of the Catholic and Roman religion’. [Jesuit Plots p 163; Report on Franciscan Manuscripts, Command Paper 2867, HMSO 1906] Indeed the fact that this was a Roman Catholic rebellion against Protestantism was acknowledged by the Jesuit writer Oliver P Rafferty in his history of Roman Catholicism in Ulster: 'The bloody Ulster uprising of 1641 ... represented ... a spontaneous outpouring of hatred against Protestantism and all it stood for.' [Catholicism in Ulster 1603-1983 p 1] But what was the extent of the massacre? In the past there were grossly exaggerated figures but even if it were only 4,000 or 12,000 people it was still a dreadful massacre and left a dreadful legacy of hatred and fear. Even the lower figure of 4,000 is greater than the number of people killed in the recent Troubles in Northern Ireland and yet the killing happened at a time when the Protestant population of Ulster was much smaller, around 100,000. Furthermore it happened in a much shorter period and in addition to those who were murdered, many others died as a result of ill treatment and deprivation.
shankillboy | Feb 22, 2011, 03:59 PM EST
if u read the full text of the statement there are still 4,000-12,000 protestants killed, all they are debating is that Cromwell falsified his records to record the number of victims at 20,000, as the historical statements are taken from both catholic & protestants witnesses. Also there is no denial of the Portadown massacre
bootsjoyce4 | Feb 22, 2011, 02:00 PM EST
The Irish are normally the victims. Let Oliver Cromwell rot in hell!
chesapeake | Feb 22, 2011, 12:11 PM EST
Cromwell would not have hesitated to manufacture false accounts of violence if it enabled hime to take "revenge" upon Catholics - or anyone else who opposed his views. Just an all-around nice guy. Remember, news was not spread quickly, so the first account - true or false - was the first acted upon.
stevecavanagh | Feb 22, 2011, 11:01 AM EST
Was the slaughter in Drogheda contrived as well?
mamaginnty | Feb 22, 2011, 10:58 AM EST
A short one, anyone old enough to remember the American films about Cowboys and Indians, it was always a one sided story.
Morninghours | Feb 22, 2011, 12:12 AM EST
Below is a link to an audio clip of an interview with Dr. Micheal O'Siochru of Trinity College Dublin where he provides a very lucid explanation of the 1641 Rebellion in light of this recent scholarship resulting from the depositions: http://www.archive.org/details/InterviewWithDr.MichelSiochr
seanomelbourne | Feb 21, 2011, 07:58 PM EST
SIRPETER Who was taking the depositions? were they contrived to justify the wholesale slaughter of Irish people? and forget not that Cromwell murdered Irish protestants who refused to recognise his take on Christianity. I think you are drawing a longbow in accepting that a massacre took place,sure some women and children may have died as they are the first casualty of all wars regardless of who the oppressor may be,be in Iran or American bombing of women and children or a suicide bomber in Afghanistan or the murder of Palestinian children The slaughter of the Innocent cannot be justified anywhere. But!! be careful when quoting "historical facts" especially when the victors are writing the script.Regards
1661996usmc | Feb 21, 2011, 07:07 PM EST
Weren't the English wonderful people? Their descendents were the Americans that treated the Irish coming to the United States.
sirpeter | Feb 21, 2011, 06:58 PM EST
seanomelbourne..I hope you don't include me as been an anti-Irish blogger Seano..Or all my good anti-brit posts might be forgotten. We all know about British propaganda and no doubt it was used in 1641..But there was massacre's of men,women and children. To doubt the pregnant women and bashing the babies to death as been false is to be naive in this case. What Cromwell did after,is not the issue. It the use of the word "fiction and hearsay" saying that it never happened. I have posted one deposition on Feb 21, 2011, 11:47 AM EST. Weather half the the depositions were lies or not is irrelevant. The question is were there massacre's or not. Until these so call expert's come out with hard proof that there was no massacre's. Then you cannot change history. I have posted to much on British atrocities in Ireland and counter-acted the lies and bulls*it by the anti-Irish here to defend the truth. To support this article,where there is no solid proof is to undermine the plentiful massacre's by the British. Where is the hard proof it didn't happen. Seano..you can't post..Quoet"Some protestants may have been killed trying to hold onto Irish stolen land"Unquoet That sentence undermines your otherwise good post. No need to say that. The attacks on the Protestants were justified as they robbed the land in the first place by force. But you cannot say they didn't massacre Men,Women and children in the process.
jamieLM | Feb 21, 2011, 06:57 PM EST
The only thing I know for sure is that 370 yrs. later, the legacy of anger, hatred, and bitterness can still affect how some people feel about their countrymen today and that's a shame.
seanomelbourne | Feb 21, 2011, 05:20 PM EST
The British used the same propaganda in the first world war.The Germans were ripping babies from pregnant women and bashing the babies to death.They even printed "scary" posters of the alleged massacres. Some protestants may have been killed trying to hold onto Irish stolen land. My heart will never bleed for a criminal like Cromwell he was a liar and an anti Christ. Their are anti-Irish bloggers on this site who will believe any b-s to demonize the Irish I say shame on you.
sirpeter | Feb 21, 2011, 03:38 PM EST
McNabb1966..I did read the article and I know it's primary-source documentation that they were utilizing in this study.It's their interpretation of said documentation I am questioning.Is that part difficult for you to understand? I used the word griots for fun,knowing that some people would have to look it up. Are you to stupid to see why i used the word in the first place.I'm a fluent Irish speaker McNabb and could have used seanchaithe,but i didn't...I think your post is rather stupid to be honest.If I posted as gaeilge,then I would have had to use seanchaithe..But English gives me a license to use any word i want. Did you not know that McNabb? If you are going to question me on a word,or my use of a word,at least get your facts right on the English language and how it can be used. McNabb..McNobber.See what i mean?.English is a bastardized language..But it's so much fun.
McNabb1966 | Feb 21, 2011, 01:04 PM EST
@sirpeter... Next time actually READ the article. It was primary-source documentation that they were utilizing in this study. And in Ireland they're called seanchaithe, not "griots." Perhaps you're hanging around on the wrong website. If you want African storytellers I'm sure you can find a website more suited to your needs. Obviously your discontent with THIS site has caused you to make a stupid comment.
slainte9 | Feb 21, 2011, 01:00 PM EST
Is this a surprise. Atrocities attributed to the Irish are a staple of Whig History -- from the Bloody Sunday cover up to the New York City draft riots, where Adrian Cook discovered that that vast majority of the riot dead were rioters and bystanders, with many of these being women and children. From the Nazis to the British there needs to be an excuse for doing away with people you want to politically and economically dispossess.
OGeibhnnaigh | Feb 21, 2011, 12:11 PM EST
With the grand good fortune to have a mother from Donegal/Derry and a father from NW Cork, I have lived in both worlds-- so to speak. We always "knew" the Cromwell tales were the lies from the Devil incarnate. Just an excuse to murder our people. Raphe Ó Géiheannaigh
sirpeter | Feb 21, 2011, 12:10 PM EST
Damned revisionist's never get anything right. They get payed to check things out, and feel they have to come up with new crap in order to justify what they are doing. Never met a revisionist on Irish history who could prove anything new. Do they not know that Irishmen have the longest memories in the world. 1641 is like yesterday to an Irishman. Not only do we have written historical documentation.But we have a country full of Griot's.
Nicomax | Feb 21, 2011, 12:02 PM EST
Invading other people's land is generally frowned upon, often resulting in mayhem and death.. A lesson that Russia and the United Sates, in recent history, failed to remember.
sirpeter | Feb 21, 2011, 11:47 AM EST
One of the 1641 depositions:Phillip Taylor late of the Portadowne in the County of Armagh husbandman ag sworne saith That about the xvj xxiiijth of October Last he this deponent was taken prisoner at Portadowne aforesaid by Toole mc Cann of now of Portadowne gent a notorious rebell and comander of a great number of rebells together with those Rebells his souldiers to the number of 100 persons or thereaboutes Att which tyme the Rebells first tooke the Castle and victualled the same, Then they assaulted and pillaged the towne & burned all the howses on the further side of the water And then the said Rebells drowned a great number of English protestants of men women and children in this deponents sight, some with their hands tyed on their backs And saith that the number of them that were soe then drowned amounted as this deponent was credibly tould and beleveth, to the number of 196 persons: That's one eye witness. Even at the LOWEST figure of 4000 Protestant's killed in 1641..I believe this deponent is telling the truth and drowning 196 people is a massacre.
sirpeter | Feb 21, 2011, 11:07 AM EST
That is not evidence that the massacre of Protestants by Catholics did not happen.The FACT is it did happen. If I was asked were there many at the football match,which I was at. I would respond..I believeth there was 50,000 or I thinketh there was 50,000, If i didn't have the exact figure. I am sick of IrishCentral distorting Irish history. The Heading IS AN INSULT TO NORTHERN UNIONIST PROTESTANTS,because there is not one EXPERT who says the massacre did not happen. They do have eye witness accounts of the 1641 massacre of Protestants on depositions. As for the atrocities, only a fool would think there wasn't any. I have serious doubt's about cannibalism,because cannibalism during war is a religious ritual practiced by some tribes and was never meant as an insult to the slain,on the contrary it was the opposite. The practice been totally anti-Christian. I have no doubt that was propaganda against the Catholic Church. As for atrocities against pregnant women who were said to have been ripped open, had their babies pulled out and beaten against rocks,that is standard practice,where women get caught up in war even to this day,just as rape is. I have very little doubt that these atrocities didn't take place against prods. What is the University of Aberdeen in Scotland up too. Looks like the Scots are dumping the Ulster Unionist's too. You can dump them..BUT NOT WITH LIES. As an Irish Catholic and Sinn Fein supporter..I'll let the Lies to the British and the Unionist's. The truth is the truth and THIS WAS A PROTESTANT MASSACRE BY IRISH CATHOLIC'S.
mcdolan | Feb 21, 2011, 10:16 AM EST
Hmph! Cromwell was bloodthirsty and impressed by his own importance. He wanted to save face with his queen, and would have taken any excuse to punish the Irish once and for all.
carrickcourt | Feb 21, 2011, 10:09 AM EST
While the 1641 Rebellion was likely not as bloody as 'reported' in the depositions, which were often recorded years after the fact, the 17Th was a time of horrible atrocities committed against all kinds of people for various reasons. The settlers were singled out in the 1641 rebellion as they occupied lands that had been owned by the "old English" and the 'native' Irish land holders.
wjmcgi1 | Feb 21, 2011, 09:47 AM EST
We have 8,000 witnesses and 19,000 pages of deposition. I wonder if some academics will conclude the same about the Bloody Sunday tribunal 350 years from now.
srdools | Feb 21, 2011, 09:42 AM EST
Tell me Cromwell isn't in hell.
justhimself | Feb 20, 2011, 08:15 PM EST
Ireland has enough present day troubles to deal with, like their national debt, their inability to properly govern themselves,allowing rogue bankers to escape prosecution,their quality citizens having to emigrate to avoid the indignity of collecting the dole, and denied the right to vote from abroad. Do they have to go back 400 years digging up more problems..I wonder how the Ireland of today will be judged by Irish generations 100 years from now....
haikued2 | Feb 20, 2011, 01:11 PM EST
Will all this ever be put to rest? Our visit to Belfast was a mixed feeling of "what a beautiful city" and "how sad" after seeing all the hate murals and Marxist stupidity on the walls.