108 Comments

• sirpeter | Jul 10, 2012, 10:27 AM EDT

  citizen69.Absolutely not. Subsequent research has undermined the sectarianism explanation and has exposed ethical failures in historian Peter Hart’s commentary in The IRA and its Enemies (1998)as well.I dealt with sectarian revisionism in the South.You made an accusation using a tv documentary(which surly was a show) and it turned out to be inaccurate.The detail is important.Now who is to say if I follow up the other accusations that they will also will be inaccurate?It's as simple as this your "facts" when it comes to "An Tost Fada" has be found wanting.

• citizen69 | Jul 10, 2012, 07:10 AM EDT

  @Sirpeter: Nonsense... 'An Tost Fada' was just a small part of my argument. You spent an inordinate amount of time dissecting one tv show (which you probably copied & pasted from some Republican website) in which your argument was more concerned about compensation and a few dates than the actual murders themselves...while at the same time completely ignoring the bulk of my other evidence.

• jerryoneill | Jul 08, 2012, 12:56 PM EDT

  Historic There are moments in time, that make you pause and look, That you know instinctively, are destined for the history book, That lightening flash insight, that you know the past is past, A new dawning, a bright new day, a new die has been cast, There comes a time when sheer insanity, gives way to common sense, When both sides see eye to eye, and reach across the fence, No talk of starvation or internment, or of explosions or random assassination, Just hopeful feelings of goodwill, just an air of conciliation, Between the once mighty British Empire and the determined Irish nation, The men in the line, were descended from the men of 1916, And the Queen greeted each man warmly, and the Queen wore Green. ©Jerry O’Neill July 5, 2012

• sirpeter | Jul 04, 2012, 10:08 PM EDT

  RedBranch.Thanks for reading what I posted.It was quite a read.*smile.You are right..You are totally right.Stereotyping is lazy and irresponsible and it also leads to dangerous attitudes being held.I am very guilty of that and I know it.I'm going to concede on my ‘kindred spirit’ claim.You have put enough doubt in my mind for me to think I could be wrong. First of all it is great to see you have an open mind.I know you have because citizen69 put up a challenge and it's one of the more convincing ones here.As a person you have a great quality because you are a listener.I make a great effort for someone like you. It's not easy on a site like this to explain matters that are complex.IC believe those who comment here can to do so within a paragraph as you can see below it ain't easy.Revisionists need to be challenged because there is so much history and modern day "fact" that is totally untrue.RedBranch I have no agenda other than challenging weak arguments by posters.Anybody who sees me challenge an opinion/poster can make up their own minds.And if I'm wrong I'll admit it.Thanks for your second post. Stereotyping is so wrong.But I'm not really a person that's very PC or goes by the rules.I'm kind of a law unto myself.You either buy what I say or you don't.But I will always say this~~~caveat emptor.

• RedBranch | Jul 04, 2012, 06:00 PM EDT

  Again I dispute your ‘kindred spirit’ claim. These Protestants were Irish, had lived here for generations, lived differently from their co-religionists across the water, and felt alienated when they moved there and only fear of death or penury kept many more from returning. Agreed many were unionists, but with a small ‘u’ as the saying goes. The issue is as you correctly pointed out, complex. Stereotyping as this site is apt to do is not only lazy and irresponsible it also leads to dangerous attitudes being held....

• RedBranch | Jul 04, 2012, 05:46 PM EDT

  Wow sirpeter, that's food for thought. You've obviously done a lot of research on the subject and what you have stated is at odds with the revisionists you have listed. I suggest you take it up with Harris (et al.) if you believe they're so off mark. A letter to the Times, Indo or Examiner should get their attention for starters. I'll follow that 'conversation' with interest...

• sirpeter | Jul 03, 2012, 08:45 PM EDT

  @citizen69 & RedBranch. Never let a good story/TV programme get in the way of the truth.

• sirpeter | Jul 03, 2012, 08:39 PM EDT

  @citizen69 & RedBranch~An Tost Fada (the Long Silence)Eoghan Harris (and columnist co-thinker, John Paul McCarthy) promote a false sectarian narrative about the Irish War of Independence. Harris ignores Ulster Unionism’s sectarian barbarity. This travesty is as far from the truth as it is possible to get without seeming to lie. Eoghan Harris’s column achieved new depths on 22 April. It concerned a programme broadcast on RTE on 15 April, narrated by Harris, directed by Gerry Gregg, and (something not stated) made by their company, Praxis Productions. An Tost Fada (the Long Silence) told a compelling story of Rev’d George Salter’s father, William, being forced to abandon his farm in 1922.George Salter was in the hands of filmmakers who don’t allow accurately presented facts to get in the way of storytelling.

• sirpeter | Jul 03, 2012, 08:35 PM EDT

  (more)The story was personally moving but historically incompetent and that is the fault of the programme makers. Even though it concerns a matter of public debate, the treatment of the protestant minority, the programme makers did not verify any of the misstatements they broadcast. There is no evidence that the programme makers availed of the services of a historical adviser, which might have prevented a string of foolish and also self-serving errors. Let me give some examples.Two men presented as shot in late April 1922 after the War of Independence, named Connell and Sweetman, were actually shot dead during the War of Independence in 1921 for giving evidence in court against the IRA. There is no dispute about this verifiable fact. Eoghan Harris’s narration that ‘as dawn approached’ after these particular killings (in 1921), William Salter decided to leave Cork immediately (in 1922) makes no sense. George Salter’s father did not receive, as alleged, £1,700 ‘compensation’ from the British government in 1924 ‘to help them get settled in England’. In fact, he received £1,200 in 1928.William Salter left Ireland in June (not April) 1922 with £1,900, proceeds from the sale of his farm to Auctioneer Henry Smith (William Salter claimed the farm was worth £3,200). The programme failed to state any of this.

• sirpeter | Jul 03, 2012, 08:33 PM EDT

  more)William Salter made no claim, contrary to what was asserted, that all personal possessions were abandoned. Henry Smith, auctioneer, resold the farm at public auction at a £300 loss in September 1926, for £1,605. Salter later claimed that the difference was because stock and implements were not part of 1926 sale, whereas they were in 1924. However, as was stated in a letter supporting William Salter’s compensation claim, ‘the state of the country in 1922 temporarily affected the value of all land’. This was all ignored. After the subsequent Civil War, William Salter returned and bought a farm in Castle-townshend in 1924, where George was born in 1925.This detail is in William Salter’s 1928 compensation claim, as a loyalist, to the British Government’s Irish Grants Committee. The programme makers ignored it. By using the word ‘compensation’, they were aware the claim existed in Kew, London. It is the sheerest incompetence or entirely disingenuous if they assert otherwise. In his 1928 compensation claim presented by the Southern Loyalists Relief Organisation, William Salter claimed £2,195 and was awarded £1,200. In a supportive letter, the former Crown Solicitor and 1927-33 TD for West Cork, Jasper Wolfe, stated that it was ‘owing to [William Salter’s] loyalty’, about which there was ‘no question’, that ‘he suffered the persecution which he went through’. Wolfe stated on numerous occasions that there was little or no nationalist sectarianism, (see, by his grandson, Jasper Wolfe of Skibbereen, 2008

• sirpeter | Jul 03, 2012, 08:23 PM EDT

  (more)William Salter claimed in his file that he refused at one time to pay into the IRA arms fund during the War of Independence, a tax enforced on substantial property holders during the conflict. This began a cycle of fines and confiscation of animals. He claimed that he received letters from the IRA prior to the Civil War demanding that he leave and claimed that the IRA forced him to sell to the Auctioneer. No copies of such letters are in the file and, as is usual in most Grants Committee files, no detail on the loyalty claimed by William Salter as a Crown Subject exists either.Why did the programme makers avoid all of these facts many of which contradict those broadcast? It can only be because it did not suit their purpose. Eoghan Harris gives ethical advice to broadcasters regularly. He sometimes calls for them to be sacked. What happened in late April 1922 in West Cork, four months after the Anglo-Irish Treaty split and two months before the onset of civil war?Thirteen Protestant civilians were killed or disappeared, while three leading British intelligence officers and their driver disappeared from Macroom.Apart from the first three victims being held responsible for shooting dead an IRA officer, the precise reason for the following ten civilian deaths is unknown. So also is whether these killings were connected with the nearby disappearance of the British Army personnel.

• sirpeter | Jul 03, 2012, 08:21 PM EDT

  (more)The possibility that civilian informer intelligence information was divulged has also been speculated upon. In the immediate aftermath, the 13 killings were thought to be revenge for unrelenting attacks on Catholics in the new state of Northern Ireland. Was it a one-off sectarian response to unionist sectarianism?Dorothy Macardle in The Irish Republic (1937) thought this might have been the reason and listed the extent of republican condemnation.Both sides of the Treaty divide, including Griffith and De Valera, and local republicans, condemned the killings. The Cork IRA leadership, who were away at army unity talks in Dublin, returned and organised guards on loyalists thought to be vulnerable. One so guarded was the Rector of Macroom who told a British officer looking for the missing officers he had no complaints about IRA treatment. That is what his son, AJS (Stephen) Brady, reported in his memoir, The Briar of Life (2010). The IRA guard in this case was the father of distinguished UCC Historian, Professor John A Murphy. Subsequent research has undermined the sectarianism explanation and has exposed ethical failures in historian Peter Hart’s commentary in The IRA and its Enemies (1998). Eoghan Harris promotes Hart’s history. We can have an open mind on the cause of those events. While some are more open to one or other theory, Eoghan Harris and John Paul McCarthy’s is not only closed, the hatches in their heads are well and truly battened down.

• sirpeter | Jul 03, 2012, 08:16 PM EDT

  (more) Harris generates a propaganda diet reminiscent of that promoted by Carson and Craig in Northern Ireland. They drove thousands of Roman Catholics out of jobs and houses in 1920-22. Brave Protestant socialists who opposed this unionist drive to divide the working class in Northern Ireland also lost their jobs. Harris, Gregg and McCarthy are not interested. Carson and Craig did not get away with it then. Harris, Gregg and McCarthy might get away with it now. Luckily, testimony from southern Protestants who refused to play the Ulster Unionist sectarian game is available. These are the people Harris referred to contemptuously on 22 April 2012 as ‘lie down and die’ Protestants. They are further derided as ‘rabid rhetorical republicans’ seeking ‘instant integration’. Harris has in the past used this sectarian language to describe the historian and Fianna Fail politician Martin Mansergh. It is bullyboy language.Harris’s understanding of the role of Erskine Childers, Robert Barton, Dorothy Stopford, Alice Stopford Green, Kathleen Lynn, Dorothy Macardle, Ernest Blythe, Sam Maguire and others is risible. It is how an apartheid defender in South Africa might have described white supporters of Nelson Mandela, when Mandela was incarcerated as a ‘terrorist’ in Robben Island.But it was not Protestant nationalists who opposed Carson and Craig.Southern unionists and Protestant clergy protested against Ulster Unionist propaganda. Some were attacked, by the Black and Tans.

• sirpeter | Jul 03, 2012, 08:15 PM EDT

  (more)That is what happened to Unionist businessman GW Biggs of Bantry in July 1920 after protesting about Carson in the Irish Times. His substantial business was burned down and his family driven out when the family home was taken over by the military. Biggs’s case was taken up in September 1920 in the Times (Lon) by J Annan Bryce of Glengarriff, brother of a former Irish Secretary. He told how, ‘The July burning [of Biggs’s business] was part of a general pogrom, in which a cripple, named Crowley, was deliberately shot by the police while in bed and several houses were set on fire while the people were asleep.’Annan Bryce reported later that his wife was arrested and deported from Wales for attempting to speak on British reprisals there.Southern unionists were outraged by British military policy. They feared Crown Forces who rampaged through towns and villages throughout southern Ireland. How do we know? They said so.These were stand up and speak Protestants. They don’t interest Harris, McCarthy and Gregg.How also do we know? The British Army also said so. 17th Infantry Brigade Major (later Field Marshal) Bernard Montgomery said, ‘I regarded all civilians as Shinners’ and ‘It didn’t bother me how many houses were burned’.All civilians’, including Protestants, their houses and their businesses. Harris, McCarthy and Gregg are not interested.After the April 1922 killings a Protestant Convention, fully representative of southern Protestantism, met in the Mansion House. On 11 May they resolved,

• sirpeter | Jul 03, 2012, 08:13 PM EDT

  (more)‘that until the recent tragedies in the County Cork, hostility to Protestants by reason of their religion, has been almost if not wholly, unknown in the twenty six counties in which Protestants are in a minority.’ In other words, Protestants regarded the April killings as exceptional. Harris, Gregg and McCarthy ignore uncomfortable (to them) facts such as these.Protestants who speak out today are not subject to the depredations of the Black & Tans. They are subject to Eoghan Harris’s attempt to intimidate those who question him.This happened to a Church of Ireland clergyman who criticised Eoghan Harris for resuscitating his 1985 Souper Sullivan play in 1995 as The Apostasy of Mathew Sullivan. Harris responded by accusing the Protestant clergyman of writing ‘against his own real wishes’ and moaned again that Protestants should ‘[stand] up for themselves’. The Rev’d N. M. Cummins did and derided the suggestion that he did not know and express his own mind. He especially stood up for himself by concluding,‘This correspondence raises an even deeper issue. In Eoghan Harris’s brave new Ireland there seems to be a place for everyone who agrees with him, but none for divergent opinions, constructive criticism or even rational debate. This falls very short of the noble republican ideal to cherish all the people of the nation equally’.The Rev’d Cummins ministered in Altar Rectory, Tooormore, Goleen, Cork, the church built in 1847 that was the centrepiece to Harris’s farcical and sectarian Souper Sullivan famine play.Gerry Colgan wrote about the 1995 production in the Irish Times that it ‘does not and probably could not transcend the limitations of the script’. The same is true of Harris propaganda today. It is the sound of one hand clapping itself on the back. Readers should go elsewhere for an alternative and objective view.This is the general consensus.

• RedBranch | Jul 03, 2012, 05:08 PM EDT

  You impress me good citizen; your energy excels mine and points about ‘An Tost Fada’, Ne Temere and Seano Fitz all excellent. Keep on trucking!

• sirpeter | Jul 02, 2012, 06:55 PM EDT

  barneyjo I agree as well that total objectivity is the ideal.But that is an impossibility if you are giving a personal opinion on almost anything.The thing is Barneyjo the closest to total objectivity a person can get is by giving the expert opinions of many many researchers on a certain topic.You find there will be differences but on certain things there is a general consensus.(ie There is a general consensus that there was injustice and discrimination towards Catholics in NI)If someone can refute that point I'm all ears.At this point in time that's the general consensus.It's not my opinion.I am only the messenger.

• sirpeter | Jul 02, 2012, 06:10 PM EDT

  citizen69.If you are going to put words in my mouth at least quote me saying it.Before I reply to any of your comment show me where I said all the Protestants in Ireland were of the upper class landed gentry?

• sirpeter | Jul 02, 2012, 03:09 PM EDT

  RedBranch.There is no evidence that ethnic cleansing of Unionists was ever part of official IRA policy.During the war for independence there was an IRA policy that Protestant's and their property was not to be interfered with unless they were actively spying for the British.The exception been during the short time that the British were destroying Catholic property lets say in Cork.These burnings all stopped after Protestants complained to the authorities when their big-houses were been burned.It's not a question of how many Protestants were killed but weather it was official IRA policy.The same could be said of the Irish "famine" How many needed to be let starve in order for it to be genocide.Some people like to call the Irish "famine" a genocide.But I have never found any evidence of a British policy of genocide towards the Irish people.I know for a fact it was not genocide.And I could explain why it wasn't.I could give reasons why they starved or the reasons that Protestants were murdered.But it would be a mistake to jump to the conclusion that both were official policy.These matters are much more complex than people are WILLING to believe.In answer to your second question I used spiritual homeland/Britain.I should have said they moved to an area where they meet those of "Kindred spirit" Which a huge amount did.Your e.g. Gore-Booths of Lisadell are exceptions.Of course there are Protestant Nationalists as there are Catholic Unionists.There are always exceptions.But generally Protestants were Unionists and Catholics were Nationalists.

• citizen69 | Jul 02, 2012, 01:43 PM EDT

  ...So it’s seems it’s quite acceptable to you that a country could dictate to you which religion your children shall adhere to? That a Protestant in a mixed marriage must bring up their child as a Catholic BY LAW!? How anyone could see that as anything other than a gross abuse of human rights for Irish Protestants is beyond me. It was nothing less than social and cultural apartheid. Yet you say maybe it was their own fault for getting married… but then I wonder how Catholic Ireland looked upon an unmarried couple back in the day? Only slightly more favourable than being married to a Protestant I would assume. It’s clearly time you came out of denial and took a truthful look back at Irelands past.

• citizen69 | Jul 02, 2012, 01:38 PM EDT

  ...The first case of gerrymandering in Ireland was in Donegal in the 1930’s and it was directed against Protestants. Donegal was probably the only place left in the Republic after the Cork exodus where unionists could have had representation and they were cheated out of it by the Irish Government. The government itself was no stranger to anti-protestant discrimination with none other than the Taoiseach himself, DeValera, fired a Protestant head librarian in Mayo stating: “A county that is 98% Catholic should deserve to have a Catholic librarian”. Trinity graduates were regularly overlooked in job applications as that had the stigma of being a Protestant college. Even just a couple of years ago the head of the Anglo-Irish Bank Sean FitzPatrick, upon hearing of a possible take-over by Bank of Ireland (seen as a Church of Ireland establishment) was heard to say "No f***ing Protestant" was going to take over his bank. The Republic’s anti-British education system taught that to be truly Irish was to be Gaelic & Catholic, and of course let’s not forget the ‘Special position’ afforded to the Catholic Church in the Irish constitution… look how THAT relationship turned out for you. It seems some citizens were always going to be more equal than others in a country wholly dominated & controlled by Roman Catholicism...

• citizen69 | Jul 02, 2012, 01:30 PM EDT

  @sirpeter: So you like to propagate the age old myth that all the Protestants in Ireland were of the upper class landed gentry? Nonsense, the overwhelming majority of Protestants in Ireland were working class artisans and small farm owners etc. Maybe you know them better through the derogatory term used for these people…Black Protestants or Black B****rds. These Irish Protestants had as much right to their land as any other Irishman. You make plenty of excuses for the demise of Protestants in Cork while avoiding the main reason… Intimidation & discrimination. 40,000 Protestants were made involuntary migrants due to widespread threats and murders. Many were killed on the accusations of being informants & spies based mainly on no other evidence than the fact they were Unionists and therefore suspect. There are many stories of IRA gangs going to Protestant homes in the wee hours and ordering the occupants to get up and serve their tormentors meals and drinks. I suggest you watch an RTE program called ‘An Tost Fada’ on the plight of Cork Protestants. It wasn’t just Cork, Protestant orphans were deliberately burnt out of two care homes in Connemara by the IRA. They had to be rescued by a British gun boat. 1935 In Galway, dock workers marched through the town behind a fife and band, calling for a general strike of Catholic workers until all the Protestant employees of the city's factories had been dismissed. In Limerick a 600 strong mob stormed through the town burning down Protestant churches & businesses, attacking houses, painting sectarian slogans and enforced a boycott of Protestant shops, employers & employees. There are many other stories...

• barneyjo | Jul 02, 2012, 01:16 PM EDT

  @sirpeter - I totally concur objectivity is the ideal when it comes to understanding of our own lives and place within a historical context. I would still contend that with the best will in the world it is not possible to be totally objective to the point where we can totally disconnect from our own personal experience, our sense of self and the catalyst for that experience and awareness. I think one of my earlier posts to our friend Allan07 would bear that out :)

• RedBranch | Jul 02, 2012, 11:11 AM EDT

  '...personal vendettas' sirpeter. At what point do these become official IRA policy. After 10, 20 how many? Include those killings along the border counties in the last century and you're into hundreds and hundreds. If it wasn't policy it certainly wasn't condoned. I disagree that many of the big-house, or indeed small house Protestants (of which there were many) had a spiritual home on the mainland. e.g. Gore-Booths of Lisadell.

• sirpeter | Jul 02, 2012, 11:05 AM EDT

  @barneyjo.You don't really think I reply to Allan07 and others so that they might change their minds do ya?People hold on to what they believe like they do a religious belief.People don't change any aspect of their lives that easy.I post for the thousands of neutral people who frequent this site and don't comment at all.Unlike some I don't have an emotional attachment to historic events.Much the same way as a surgeon doesn't allow an emotional attachment to the person he cuts open.If a person like yourself puts up an educated reasonable argument on a subject I either let the comment stand for the neutral people to make up their own mind or I challenge the comment in a reasonable manner.If a comment is an abusive unreasonable uneducated personal opinion/argument.I still challenge the opinion/argument first and foremost.But I no tolerance for racists,sectarian bigots and historic triumphalism where it is to the detriment of your neighbour as well as themselves.If a peoples culture and upbringing includes these dangerous attributes.It's time for a culture change.That goes for every culture in my opinion.

• barneyjo | Jul 02, 2012, 03:34 AM EDT

  @sirpeter - In the case of Allan07 and a good many others I dont really think challenge means anything. A lot of posters when confronted with inconvenient truths seem to either go silent, or just batten down the hatches and continue their fight as they would see it. Allan07 is no more or less a victim in all of this than are you and I; We're all coloured by history and our own sense of it; and in denial to a degree.

• sirpeter | Jul 01, 2012, 08:07 PM EDT

  citizen69.Allan07 was indeed stating that there were parallels to the "plight" of Protestant/Unionists in the Republic.Land reform from the 1870s to the 1900s must have been very distressing.Large Protestant-owned/stolen estates been broken up and given back to the Irish people WITH compensation money to settle back in their spiritual home of Britain.The disestablishment of the Church of Ireland in 1871.This led the Church to sell many of its properties, in the process laying off many Protestant workers who subsequently moved away.I guess when the Protestant Church couldn't squeeze 10% of a poor Irish farmers income anymore they felt they were in such a plight.During the Irish War of Independence the British came up with the idea that house burnings in Cork and Cork city itself might subdue the uppity Catholic Irish until the IRA deciding to do a little Protestant house burning of their own.Protestant and Catholic spies were shot of course.As a Cork historian I found isolated incidents of Protestant murders probably due to personal vendettas.But have yet to find a campaign of murder and ethnic cleansing against Unionists.Large numbers of Unionists left Ireland.It's not easy for Protestant bigots who considered themselves superior to now be treated as equals.As for intermarriage and children having to be brought up Catholic.They wouldn't have married if it was a big issue.Compare that to what the Catholics suffered in NI.As you already stated Allan07 makes silly and abusive posts.He has a right to do that and I'm only too delighted to challenge his delusional Billy boy crap.

• Towngate | Jul 01, 2012, 05:22 PM EDT

  Thanks Barneyjo for your remarks @06.33. I couldn't agree more that Sacred Cows are falling like ninepins! - and about time. O'Neill and Faulkner agreed to slaughter most of them years ago and begin the process, realising the onesided pro-protestant agenda could not be sustained in a modern world. Ironically Devlin and Hume were products of that enlightened move for Catholic emancipation; so where did it all go wrong? ~~~ You may remember the old story about Home Rule being granted only to have some puffed-up self-appointed 'patriots' attempting to hijack the process and in six days set it back six years to a Treaty that then set it back to this very day! - and lost The North forever!! ~~~~~~ Nobody at all can claim any Credit or be proud of the political,social,spiritual and financial disaster our country has become. Yes,Barneyjo,a few snuffed-out Cows lying about the place is a great start; but it will take a good many more handshakes and suchlike to deal with the mighty big Herd that are still left wandering about. Here's hoping we can play our part and live to see it. Slainte!

• barneyjo | Jul 01, 2012, 09:12 AM EDT

  @citizen69 - We dont have a perfect peace here....no yet anyway, and no-one should be surprised at that. There are still posters who are looking for a victory of one "side" over the other, and thats not surprising when you consider where we who have lived in Norn Iron are coming from. Reading posts here, makes me all the more convinced that it is ultimately up to ordinary folk to engage with those living on the other side of the fence, perhaps for the first time in their lives in order to make peace. And for many, that is not going to be easy. Many sacred cows will have to be let go; as much for Nationalists as for Unionists.I think you are right about the politics of "pragmatism" taking hold here, and you're right, Sinn Fein are looking south. However a handshake on its own will not be enough to attract a sufficiently large rump of "Middle Ireland" to allow the Party to have a decent run for office after the next election. There's also the economic argument to be made. And if the party cannot stretch itself to an economic strategy which goes beyond telling the ECB and IMF to "Feck Off" then they will rule themselves out of office for a further period, because they will remain caustic to the other likely Government partners. "Peace comes dropping slow" and it will be the case in our wee country I think :)

• citizen69 | Jul 01, 2012, 07:43 AM EDT

  ...I'm sure it's more to do with misjudging the mood of the vast majority of people in the Republic who had welcomed the visit. Thing is, Marty meeting the Queen is not something any unionists i know were asking for, even though they do recognise the symbolism of it. More likely Sinn Fein were trying to convince the public in the south that they had left sectarian politics behind (which they haven't). If they wanted to reach out to unionists in a meaningful way they would have fired their minister for Regional Development, Conor Murphy who was found guilty in a tribunal of discriminating against Protestants in his department.

• citizen69 | Jul 01, 2012, 07:32 AM EDT

  As for the handshake, while i welcome it i believe it was more for the benefit of the electorate in the Republic than it was for the unionists of NI. Otherwise can anyone explain what has changed politically that has enabled S.F. to reach out to unionists today when they couldn't do last year during the visit of the Queen to the Republic?...

• citizen69 | Jul 01, 2012, 07:26 AM EDT

  @Sparklet & Barneyjo: I don't agree with most of what Allan07 said but let's not put words into his mouth. His statements about the 12th July and national sporting achievements are petty & stupid but I don't believe he was denying the plight of Catholics in Northern Ireland. Seems to me he was stating that there were parallels to the plight of Protestant/Unionists in the Republic and that the same thing wasn't going to happen to Unionists in the North. I agree with the three points you made in your last post to me Barneyjo and yes Allan is still making silly and abusive posts that do him no favours when trying to put his arguments across and there is no shortage of posters replying in kind (i.e. sirpeter)...

• barneyjo | Jul 01, 2012, 06:33 AM EDT

  @Towngate - No matter, the meeting happened between the Monarch and the former IRA Commander. Previously The Monarch acknowledged Republican Dead during her visit to Dublin. Previously she spoke "Cupla Focal as Gaelige", and she was greeted As Gaelige, by the Deputy First Minister As Gaelige. Sacred Cows being swept away all over the place these days dont you think?

• Towngate | Jul 01, 2012, 06:10 AM EDT

  Just a footnote on Martin's refusal to 'bow' to his Queen of Northern Ireland: By staunchly refusing to do so, he recognises and admits that it is expected! ~ and perversely honours her in that way! ~~~ For his information, Her Majesty is well known not to give a corgi's backside about all that bowing and scraping. She is also a noted and talented Mimic so it is not hard to imaging the capers back home as she and Philip re-enact the Pantomime of a meeting. ~~~ A new dance has been devised called the 'Edinburgh Escape' based on the moment when Marty tried to cosy up to Philip when he was looking at an exhibit, and the 91-year-old Duke skipped smartly away, avoiding contact with him as if he was a suppurating buboe. Freeze-frame the moment and Marty facial expression tells us all we need to know about how far the Republican cause has really progressed.

• RedBranch | Jun 30, 2012, 05:58 PM EDT

  Whats Martin really thinking? " Begorragh that's a lovely shade of chartreuse, I'll be using a bit of that for me next salmon fly." Of course Mr. McGuinness has access to some of the prime salmon/sea trout spots in the country that us second rate citizens could only dream of...

• barneyjo | Jun 30, 2012, 01:52 PM EDT

  @Sparklet - Surely you've heard of Holocaust denial (it never happened). Same premise can apply in other situations!!

• Sparklet | Jun 30, 2012, 01:21 PM EDT

  Is Allan07 seriously suggesting that the Protestants in NI were never guilty of treating Catholics like second class citizens, or have I just read it wrong?

• barneyjo | Jun 30, 2012, 09:43 AM EDT

  @citizen69 - You may not believe this but I feel sorry for Allan07, or anyone for that matter, be they Unionist, Nationalist otherwise, who seriously think that even now it is still possible to reach the future through the past. It never was, it isnt now, and it never will be. I seem to recall some time back, you and I both were happy to give our friend Allan07 a fools pardon for attempting to tar all Nationalists with the one brush, and you rightly said that posters should be respectful of each others views. Well, in the time since that encounter here on IC as far as Allan07 is concerned, nothing seems to have changed for him, and that is fair enough. I accept totally that the tone of my last post was somewhat more "strident" than normal; but read through it, and I hope you will find that what I have said is accurate (vis a vis the quotations) The points I was making were threefold; 1)that two wrongs dont make a right.2) That debate and discussion based on the merits of "Whataboutery" are pointless. 3)that the world has changed for us all; and I detect from your posts that you and I are of the one view on that. For our friend Allan07, his world is "back there" somewhere. Rev WF Marshall(the Bard of Tyrone) once wrote "Drumquin you're not a city, but you're all the world to me" For Allan07 it means "Drumquin you're not a city but you're all the world I have!!" And that makes me very sad for him.

• citizen69 | Jun 30, 2012, 06:21 AM EDT

  Calm down lads, we've all had a drink!!

• sirpeter | Jun 29, 2012, 10:19 PM EDT

  allan07.I was wondering when you were going to go into Billy boy meltdown.lololol.You can't speak to ancavker that way.How dare you say you will kick HER in the nuts.It's not marching season yet Billy Boy.Why don't you give it up? Rangers cheated and all the titles are gone forever and the Queen is now a Celtic fan as you can see.lol.She doesn't want to be a hun anymore.Look at Peter Robinson and the smile on the Queens face.That's not fake.Martin has extended the hand of friendship to everyone in the Unionist community.The Queen dressed in GREEN has extended the hand of friendship to Ireland again.The world doesn't revolve around the Billy Boys.Just do your marching and celebrate your Protestant 300 year old victory.For what it's worth.But remember this reality.The Irish Republic or England,Scotland or Wales will never win the world cup or the European Championship.But such is the standard nowadays Northern Ireland will never ever qualify for either ever again.

• barneyjo | Jun 29, 2012, 06:32 PM EDT

  "And it is not a day that you CAN inflict on my community, not any more" (Jeez, you'd think I could get my sentence structure correct wouldn't you!!)

• barneyjo | Jun 29, 2012, 06:22 PM EDT

  @ALLAN07 - By how many goals did Engerland beat the Italians by, can you please remind me again? Oh and I hope you are not going to join the boycott of Rangers Season tickets for Division 3 games next year :) And in the final analysis when you ask about the treatment of Protestants in post-partition Ireland, do you seriously think that two wrongs could ever make a right, when you consider the treatment of the Nationalist minority in Norn Iron, post partition. "A Protestant land for a Protestant people" was the cry. Primeminister Basil Brooke famously declared that "I would not have a Catholic about the place" Despite all the "f**king kickings dished out by Unionism to Nationalism, we're still here; and NO I wont go out to celebrate the "Glorious Twelfth" if you dont mind because it does not have the same significance for me as for my Protestant neighbours. I hope you all have a good day; but its a day for your community to enjoy, not mine. And it is not a day that you CANNOT inflict on my community, not any more. Kick the Pope by all means (you would have to join a very long queue of Catholics to do that at this stage) but leave your Nationalist neighbours out of it, if you would please :)

• barneyjo | Jun 29, 2012, 06:12 PM EDT

  @ALLAN07 - By how many goals did Engerland beat the Italians by, can you please remind me again? Oh and I hope you are not going to join the boycott of Rangers Season tickets for Division 3 games next year :) And in the final analysis when you ask about the treatment of Protestants in post-partition Ireland, do you seriously think that two wrongs could ever make a right, when you consider the treatment of the Nationalist minority in Norn Iron, post partition. "A Protestant land for a Protestant people" was the cry. Primeminister Basil Brooke famously declared that "I would not have a Catholic about the place" Despite all the "f**king kickings dished out by Unionism to Nationalism, we're still here; and NO I wont go out to celebrate the "Glorious Twelfth" if you dont mind because it does not have the same significance for me as for my Protestant neighbours. I hope you all have a good day; but its a day for your community to enjoy, not mine. And it is not a day that you can inflict on my community, not any more. Kick the Pope by all means (you would have to join a very long queue of Catholics to do that at this stage) but leave your Nationalist neighbours out of it, if you would please :)

• allan07 | Jun 29, 2012, 05:07 PM EDT

  @ancavker you behave like a child whom cries for his sweets. My sweets my sweets i want i want i want. You will get a good f**king kicking in the nuts and thats about it. The protestant people of the Irish Republic after 1922 were treated like vermin. Second class citizens we will never allow that to happen in our own country Northern Ireland. For those whom dont like it go SOUTH to the Republic. A failed state that has been kept afloat by the EU, Britain, the US and others. (IMF). Get a life and move on. Enjoy the 12th July in a few days time. No surrender. Remember 1690. You lot came second. Accept the facts. Your pants in everything. Euro Championships 0 points. Rugby. Ireland 0 New Zealand 60. Paddy last thats sums your lot up. Olympics Great Britain 30 Gold. Ireland 0. Your a bunch of cabbages. No talent, no culture, no class, no skill, no economy, no hope, no chance, Useless lot.

• barneyjo | Jun 29, 2012, 04:23 PM EDT

  @Bythebay - I dont wish to appear condescending, BUT 1) I am certain that you will not be supporting Glagow Rangers in the SPL next year (Sacred cow no 1). The Deputy First Minister's meeting with Banrion Eilis a Do last week is proof positive that despite its best efforts the Unionist Monolith in Northern Ireland was an abject failure!! (Sacred cow no 2). It sought to uphold a Democratic deficit to the disadvantage of a Nationalist minority, to curtail its rights and place limitations on its freedom of expression and its cultural expression. Yet despite this, a working class apprentice butcher from Derry/ Londonderry is now joint Chief Executive of the defacto "Super council" that passes for a Government in Norn Iron, despite every obstacle put in his path (Sacred Cow no 3). For as long as it remains necesseary, any form of Governance and self determination for the people of Northern Ireland will only be possible through a mandatory coalition between Unionism and Nationalism (Sacred cow no 4) The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland can no longer march WHERE they will, WHEN they will (Sacred cow no 5)Banrion Eilis a Do is happy and relaxed about speaking "Cupla Focal As Gaelige" (speaking in Irish - Sacred cow no 6) And if you take the Passport test, you will not be able to discriminate between a British and Irish Passport as they are basically the same document (Standard European communities Model). Happy to point up more Sacred Cows gone in due course :)

• Bythebay | Jun 29, 2012, 11:00 AM EDT

  seamus60, you really know nothing about Northern Ireland UK. By wearing green for this event she was being conciliatory, non threatening, something obviously unknown among many in the US. She did the same thing when she came to Ireland last year and when she met Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese, former Presidents of Ireland. She wasn't dressed in a triumphalist way which of course would have caused more OUTRAGE from the US and some in Northern Ireland UK.

• Bythebay | Jun 29, 2012, 10:53 AM EDT

  ancavker, you're showing religious prejudice. Religious divisiveness is well done, finished, over. People have the right to select their religion as well as their Government without reprisals from terrorists or anyone else. Your idea is well over.

• Bythebay | Jun 29, 2012, 10:47 AM EDT

  barneyjo, the only Sacred Cow gone is McGuinness refusal to acknowledge his Queen which he's finally done. Sinn Fein refused to meet her last year in Dublin which only shows their ignorance. This acknowlegement shows Northern Ireland UK firmly part of the United Kingdom as expressed by 93% of the people of Northern Ireland.

• Bythebay | Jun 29, 2012, 10:43 AM EDT

  maireadinmelb, McGuinness and his ilk started terrorism against the Government of Northern Ireland UK. The Government rightfully responded, the same way your Australian Government, part of the Commonwealth, would respond to the same terrorism or the US Government responding to Al Qaeda. McGuinness, Adams and the other terrorists in Northern Ireland lost the longest running sectarian violence in history. Religious and political prejudice exhibited by McGuinness, Adams and the other terrorists was and is wrong and is why they didn't succeed. Of course McGuinness never completed primary school so the political process would have been unknown to him.

• Towngate | Jun 29, 2012, 09:06 AM EDT

  Nobody could fail to recognise the remarkably similar facial features of the obsequious,cloying McGuinness and the fabulous Queen of Northern Ireland. . . . Now, that could explain a lot ... did North-east Ulster really suffer the Hobs of Hell just because the wee boi was looking for hus Mammy!

• ciaradexy | Jun 29, 2012, 08:25 AM EDT

  Allan, people in the Republic dont want the North anyway but would you rather this island went back to treating people as second class citizens because of their religion or would you prefer peace?

• sirpeter | Jun 29, 2012, 04:53 AM EDT

  Poor Creakygate couldn't resist commenting on this article.lol.Take a good look at the Queen!Queen! dressed in green.I bet it all feels like some Greek Drama been played out to you Creaky.As for her beloved United Kingdom.There isn't harmony and loyalty at all,at all.Haggis Scoticus wondering do they really want to stay with broken Britain.Even little Jersey a crown dependency is wondering how dependent broken Britain is and might be leaving soon.Everyone getting fed up with selfish Londinium.It's all barely under the surface........................Double,double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble.

• Towngate | Jun 28, 2012, 06:10 PM EDT

  'Lizzie, Lizzie, very Buzy ~ How does your garden Grow?' " Philip? Who was the second one along? I thought he would never let go of my fingers! Then he started slurring some of that awful gallic nonsence at one!" ~ ~ How fitting that this Pantomome should be performed at the Lyric Theatre! Martina's clumsy, neck-sweating and amateurish ( did ye get a photo of that?) performance, has set Republicanism back fifty or more years and Her Majesty can return to London secure in the knowledge that her beloved United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is United in Loyalty to her, as even one of her formerly most dissident Subjects are now willing to stand in line and eagerly shake her hand and " have his photy took!" The 'La' has well and truly 'Chuckied', me Boys!' ~ just not the one ye were expectin' eh?. and hey! - Don't blame me! Marty's yer man! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Footnote: Like all good plays there is a twist in the tail. Fact is: It wasn't really Her Maj at all, but her stunt double wearing self-disinfecting asbestos gloves! That is why she and Philip are grinningso broadly!............................. Now you know!

• seamus60 | Jun 28, 2012, 02:01 PM EDT

  So every time the queen wears green, she`s thinking of Ireland. LOL

• sirpeter | Jun 28, 2012, 01:48 PM EDT

  allan07 Quote"We are different. Religion, politics, culture, language, history, allegiences, believes, ideals, currency, background, etc, etc. A united Ireland, never not while i live and breathe"Unquote.Poor Billy frantically looking to be different and nobody taking any notice.The Queen dressed in Green like a Celtic fan shaking hands with the RA.Rangers football club gone forever.Oh!Dear Oh!Dear Oh!Dear lol.

• ancavker | Jun 28, 2012, 11:52 AM EDT

  allan 07: OK, no united Ireland, but (once the mess in the south is fixed) we want Fermanagh, Tyrone, and South Armagh, Derry, and a few bits of Down, like we were supposed to have per the boundary commission.

• RedBranch | Jun 28, 2012, 11:44 AM EDT

  'Goodbye and Godspeed" Isn't that the sort of thing you say to somebody whose about to blast off into space?

• johnshiel | Jun 28, 2012, 11:16 AM EDT

  cuddlybunny - yeah, just like I said: nice hat!

• ciaradexy | Jun 28, 2012, 08:18 AM EDT

  Oh carrollclan, the relief I just felt when you confirmed youre not Irish was astonishing. Your family left Ireland in 1300. Brilliant. Youre even less irish than Abraham Lincoln. Phew! please dont ever visit Ireland. last thing we need are more religious nuts in our country.

• IrelandNorth | Jun 28, 2012, 07:08 AM EDT

  The peace process (PP) is a process not an event. It wasn't just designed to grandstand the Rt Hon Martin Mc Guinness MP MLA DFM SF shaking hands with the British Monarch. The PP is impressively stage managed/scripted by professional diplomats all round. The Rt Hon Peter Robinson, MP MLA FM DUP excelled throughout, showing the more acceptable face of democratic British unionism. Wearing green beats wearing black any day. The Good Friday Agreement provides for simultaneous referenda between two current jurisdictions on the Island of Ireland for Reunification - with Greak Britain (GB) undertaking not to interfere! Like Welsh or Scottish independence, we don't know what way the yarrow sticks will fall until then. I imagine both Governments are waiting until the macroeconomic superstructures are in place before manufacturing consent for a UI. Anyone who has see Al Gore's 'An Inconvenient Truth' will know that "hell freezing over" is a distinct possibility.

• barneyjo | Jun 28, 2012, 06:20 AM EDT

  @Bedee - Absolutely it has changed. I am resident in NI I avail and utilise all services, but I hold an Irish Passport, not a British Passport. Anyway, both are essentially the same, being European Union Standard community documents. From the back, you cant tell them apart :)

• cuddlybuddly | Jun 28, 2012, 04:32 AM EDT

  The nuclear luminous acid green attire of the Queen especially the halo effect around her smiling face screams heartfelt, important and time to stop the hate and unite as fellow human beings and improving conditions for every other human being

• SAirish | Jun 28, 2012, 03:47 AM EDT

  Carrollcian, you are a very typical Irish half American. They have a big thing about the US War of Independence even though the founding fathers were English prods, many of them like George Washington were big slave owners. A real English colonial country gentleman if ever there was one. From the earliest times of the USA right up until the beginning of the 20th century there was wide spread discrimination against Irish Catholics and the irony of Irish Americans glorifying the US founding fathers is striking. Some of the English colonialists in the US had white Irish people as slaves.

• Beedee | Jun 28, 2012, 12:25 AM EDT

  To be born Northern Irish is to be born British. Any official form needing to be filled........... in the space "Nationality" We had to write British. Has that changed?

• Carrollclan | Jun 27, 2012, 08:19 PM EDT

  Well I want to thank everyone who responded to my commits, I bet my friends English and Irish that I could start a fire ball with are Europe brothers and I won so I am off to the bar or pub were they will buy the drinks and again thank you.

• Carrollclan | Jun 27, 2012, 08:17 PM EDT

  We are all in this together it time to stop the fighting I don’t care if you are catholic or protestant we have the same god, god the father son, and holy ghost it time to let go of the pass and move on because in the end all we have is each other.

• oldboreen | Jun 27, 2012, 06:38 PM EDT

  Carrollclan,with the greatest respect, I suggest you stop spouting such nonsense,get off your butt,buy yourself a ticket, and go to both Ireland and England. Only then will you have a better idea of the present realities. I'm one of more than a million Irish living in the UK-goodness knows how many more second and third generation. The vast majority of us are content to be here.You may not like that, but that is how it is!

• barneyjo | Jun 27, 2012, 06:27 PM EDT

  @Allan07 -poor poor you. Another sacred cow gone; Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II greeting in public a former Commander of the Provisional IRA today(when did you last meet your very own Monarch I wonder :) And yesterday, she visited a Catholic Church in "Norn Iron" for the first time. You know there is a town not too far from you from which came a singer and writer of songs. One of his more well known compositions is about conflict and the damage that it does. The last lines of the last verse of this song has the words "And the twisted wreckage down on main street, will bring us all together in the end, and we'll go marching down the road to freedom, freedom" So I hope that you're happy and content in your "Never Never Land" And of course, if you ever get too lonely, you can always re-join "us lot" in the REAL WORLD, which is getting more wonderful by the day for "our lot" and "your lot" as well!! (doing my best to remain balanced and objective here Citizen 69, but its not easy with people who still believe that they can reach the future through the past)

• maireadinmelb | Jun 27, 2012, 06:24 PM EDT

  Oh bythebay we can turn that around and applaud Martin for being composed after watching innocent people shot in the streets of his home town by her majesty's crown forces, and he and his friends being held without crime or conviction by those same crown forces, after watching the crown put people in prison on the word of colluding crown forces and watching his friends slowly starve to death to defeat the conditions in Her Majesty's prisons!!

• Sparklet | Jun 27, 2012, 06:23 PM EDT

  Apologies for posting twice. The first one didn't look as though it had gone through.

• Sparklet | Jun 27, 2012, 06:10 PM EDT

  Carrollclan, who do you think you are? You have no idea what the people of Ireland want, but if you think it's a return to violence you're very mistaken. Things are moving forward and the people in N.Ireland are generally happy with their lot thank you very much. The vast majority want to live their lives without more tragedy and violence and your attitude wouldn't be welcome north or south of the border. You're living in the past.

• Sparklet | Jun 27, 2012, 06:05 PM EDT

  Carrollclan, you're missing the point. The majority of people in Ireland, north and south, don't want to fight, and don't see the need. So what right do you have to say they should? Ireland isn't at war, and the people in the north now have the equality that was worth fighting for. They don't want violence any more. Who do you think you are to say what should be happening in Ireland? Your attitude wouldn't be welcome.

• Carrollclan | Jun 27, 2012, 05:45 PM EDT

  delt19usa,jimod4343 My family left Ireland in the 1300 and moved to Scotland and stay there until 1500 then left in the 1600 and moved to America my family help build this great nation and fought the English for freedom , my family fought in ever war we had and we always come out on top. So your right about I don’t live in Ireland but my blood is pure Irish and I will always fight for my family and kinsman, My CARROLLCLAN is in the thousands and if we wont to do something about it we would and we would win WHY because we are Carroll’s and god made us that way we are the first to fight and last to fall. Ad being a vet of combat let meet and see who would win.

• dermotfastnet | Jun 27, 2012, 05:12 PM EDT

  Allen07 Whose keeping UK afloat? current debt including financial institutions £2311.6 BILLION

• Sparklet | Jun 27, 2012, 04:26 PM EDT

  Scottmcgowan, no-one should ever forget or forgive what the British governments of the past did, but you are so right. It is time to move on, because what's the alternative? Violence will never achieve a united Ireland. Moving forward might.

• Scottmcgowan | Jun 27, 2012, 04:05 PM EDT

  My people were forced out of Ireland by the British powers that were in place - they called it a famine when, in fact, they were exporting food from Ireland. I cannot forget that but it is time to move on. I am pleased to see Mr. McGinnis and the Queen shake hands - every little step helps in the peace process. Keep in mind, also, that the Queen of Great Britain" is a direct descendant of Brian Boru through both her mother and her father - so the irish royal line presently sits on the throne of Britain! Scott

• Bythebay | Jun 27, 2012, 03:31 PM EDT

  jimod4343, the times are changing as far as accepting religious differences and political differences without embarking on terrorism against those who don't agree. However, there is no interest in Ireland or Northern Ireland for a United Ireland.

• Bythebay | Jun 27, 2012, 03:24 PM EDT

  Last year when she was at the State Dinner in Dublin Castle in Ireland the Queen said: "You can bow to the past but not be bound by it". She gave an extradordinary example of that again today when she shook hands with Martin McGuinness who was responsible for the murder of her cousin Lord Louis Mountbatten, 79 years old in a bombing in Sligo in Ireland. Mountbatten's legs were severed in the blast and he later died. Mountbatten's 14 year old twin grandson was also killed as was a 15 year old summer crew member from County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland. His wife was severely injured as was his daughter, son-in-law and surviving 14 year old twin grandson. She has certainly set an excellent example and high standard for the future.

• jimod4343 | Jun 27, 2012, 03:19 PM EDT

  Allan07 - You cant be 'Northern Irish' AND 'British'. It's called the United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland. BTW, what do you mean by "You lot" exactly? I was born and bred in London, hold an Irish passport, and live in the 26 counties. Why do you disagree with Carrollclan? I can tell by the style of writing that Carrollclan lives in the USA, and is deluded that he/she is Irish. Times are changing and you are being left behind. Carrollclan - have you ever considered counselling?

• Sparklet | Jun 27, 2012, 03:05 PM EDT

  Cillowen, are you sure about the Saxon thing? Weren't the Saxons invaded themselves by the Normans, who were then invited into Ireland, thus starting about the whole sorry mess? Why not direct your hatred at the French if you're so entrenched in ancient history? Or maybe those remnants of pure Anglo-Saxon should start a fight to get the Norman invaders out of their country. And if you think that doesn't sound realistic - you're right. And if we want to talk about a nation of mass murderers, the people of Iraq might have something to say on that subject.

• Delta19USA | Jun 27, 2012, 02:52 PM EDT

  Carrolician, If you are still so bitter about the past, have you given any thought to your fellows countrymen who live and work in England? Remember that the Irish people can travel back and forth without restriction and the need for a passport, even though the Republic is classed as a foreign country. Maybe the British Government should think again and make it compulsory for Irish citizens to apply for a visa and show a passport if they ever wish to visit England. As for Irish people already resident in England, they would then become illegal residents. Think of the consequences and problems with all that. I am English, now a citizen of the USA but I have no problem with Ireland or it's people, they are wonderful - it is just people like you that make me puke - get over it. Everyone else is striving for a lasting peace.

• Bythebay | Jun 27, 2012, 02:28 PM EDT

  Patrick Counihan, I realize you're in the US but try to get it straight. Queen Elizabeth II isn't the Queen of England, she's the Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

• allan07 | Jun 27, 2012, 02:16 PM EDT

  Carrolician: Its people like you whom are stupid. I am Northern Irish and British and that will never change. Not this side of hell freezing over. If you lot got control of Northern Ireland we would all be in the poo. Eire is a failed state even after 90 years of Independence. Britain recently loaned the Free State 10 billion to keep them afloat. Ireland will never be United as we are not a united people. We are different. Religion, politics, culture, language, history, allegiences, believes, ideals, currency, background, etc, etc. A united Ireland, never not while i live and breathe.

• ciaradexy | Jun 27, 2012, 02:14 PM EDT

  Hermit, Brady and the pope are responsible for kids being raped. The IRA were involved in a 'war'. catholics preach love and the word of their 'god' but their leaders raped children. Do not confuse priests with the IRA or any soldier. Youngpike, the majority in Ireland do not want a United Ireland. Carrol, use a full stop there will ye please. 'England is trying to control us'. Stop following Man Utd so ye twat.

• Sparklet | Jun 27, 2012, 02:09 PM EDT

  Carrollclan, you're in a minority and you offer nothing constructive. The people of Ireland don't want to keep fighting and don't want your kind of attitude. The past is over and we're moving forward. Get used to it. Stop trying to force your ideals on the majority and behaving as badly as those whose behaviour you apparently despise. You're being a hypocrite.

• YoungPike | Jun 27, 2012, 02:05 PM EDT

  Carrollcian: It's people like you who stop progress. The Queen and the people of present-day England want the best for Ireland, and want friendly relations between the UK and Ireland. Millions of British would like to see a united Ireland and feel great shame about the past. So put your history books down and look to the future.

• sparticusnorth | Jun 27, 2012, 01:57 PM EDT

  it matters not in eternity ?

• Nicoletta | Jun 27, 2012, 01:36 PM EDT

  Thanks be to God for this. St Oliver Plunkett, pray for us.

• SeanCitizen | Jun 27, 2012, 01:16 PM EDT

  It was a major step for both sides but let's not be over-awed by the symbolism, there is still a lot of hard work to be done before Ireland will truly be at peace.

• Carrollclan | Jun 27, 2012, 01:12 PM EDT

  I can believe you all will fall for this crap England is still trying to control us the Americans kick there ass and show the way keep fighting until we are free.

• Carrollclan | Jun 27, 2012, 01:03 PM EDT

  she should have dressed in her family colors blood red

• Carrollclan | Jun 27, 2012, 01:01 PM EDT

  Bull crap she wears green and shake his hand tell her to give back all her family took from us then maybe we can talk peace until then fight on my fellow Irish until Ireland is free.

• joan1954 | Jun 27, 2012, 12:36 PM EDT

  Can it be true, that we may have peace in our time? And that people are tired of killing each other. May Her Majesty and McGuiness know peace all their days for the symbolic gesture they have made after the long years of battle. Now we need peace Glasgow Rangers and Celtic supporter? Possible after this?

• Sparklet | Jun 27, 2012, 12:10 PM EDT

  That's surely a genuine smile there from QE. Would it be so warm if she didn't recognise - even if she can't say it publicly - that English history in Ireland is not something to be proud of.

• lyoness555 | Jun 27, 2012, 11:57 AM EDT

  The Queen is extending an Olive Branch - Lets hope that the Irish people can stop the hatred and get over it to unite with Britan it would be a beautiful thing a united UK ! Cant the IRish people get along with anyone??

• ancavker | Jun 27, 2012, 11:56 AM EDT

  Very nice all around. Especially so for the people of the six counties who suffered so much from the violence on all sides, why those in the south ignored it for the most part. This is their day.

• hermitTalker | Jun 27, 2012, 11:52 AM EDT

  Thanks to the Holy Spirit and the prayers and sacrifices that made this day possible. May the healing continue. For transparency, Mr McGuinness who has been forgiven for what he did in 1969 could join Mr Kenny, Mr Gilmore and Mr R Quinn to apologise to Cardinal S Brady and HH the Pope for their IED attacks on both for things neither one of them did. Integrity is either consistent or it is a passing PR gesture. This scene today explains that is can happen and did happen without groveling or rubbing noses in the dirt on either side.

• citizen69 | Jun 27, 2012, 11:33 AM EDT

  Good job. Now let's work to get everybody moving forward in peace. The symbolism is there but good & sincere relationships need to be forged by politicians & communities at the grass roots level or it counts for nothing.

• CitizenWhy | Jun 27, 2012, 11:10 AM EDT

  At last, perhaps the future has become more important than the past in Ireland.

• ciaradexy | Jun 27, 2012, 10:29 AM EDT

  Carrickcourt, very well said! This is purely to do with people being sick and tired of murder and hurt, religion doesnt come into it. A truly momentous occasion!

• Searlit | Jun 27, 2012, 10:27 AM EDT

  Slán agus beannacht, I always loved this Irish expression.

• Kilsally | Jun 27, 2012, 10:09 AM EDT

  Yes - a shared future for the communities in NI

• carrickcourt | Jun 27, 2012, 09:44 AM EDT

  While it perhaps was a result of some kind of 'divine' intervention I suspect it had more to do with people getting just tired of killing each other.

• CelticQueenUSA | Jun 27, 2012, 09:43 AM EDT

  Proud to be alive to see this historic moment that my ancestors thought would never happen. God Bless Us All!!!

• johnshiel | Jun 27, 2012, 09:39 AM EDT

  nice hat!

• michaelidaho | Jun 27, 2012, 09:38 AM EDT

  Heartwarming snapshot that symbolizes the incredible progress in reconciliation between Ireland, England and the different traditions in Northern Ireland. Twenty years ago, I doubt a single human being could have imagined Peter Robinson, Martin McGuiness, and Queen Elizabeth II smiling and greeting one another in the same room.

• asnyder | Jun 27, 2012, 09:15 AM EDT

  Fantastic news! A great victory for God's plan to love one another as He loved us. Historic bravery displayed by each party. Peace can happen!

• brianmack | Jun 27, 2012, 09:05 AM EDT

  Truly a momentous occasion! To my Grandparents, from Kerry, Cork and Mayo, I have witnessed in my lifetime what you once said would never happen. I guess prayer and sacrifice work.