57 Comments

• 89west | Jun 02, 2012, 01:01 PM EDT

  eirimach.....The church of which we speak was created not by Christ but by a man, lusting for a woman. The motives were personal and selfish and had nothing, whatsoever, to do with holiness nor the sacredness of Christ's teachings. Once established and on down through the ages, this church has been used as an instrument to support and validate, man and his temporal fiefdom. Over time, this church and its adherents have seen fit to use this institution to further their temporal goals to dominate and control and is and has been the source of great suffering and misery to all those who had the misfortune to fall under their imperialist influence. No amount of revisionist history can refute these facts, nor lessen the negative impact that is readily seen in the history of countries such as Ireland. It would be far better and much easier to debate, "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin", than to go on about about what was meant by some sage in the OT, millenniums ago. However, what can be said about modern protestantism is this, so called, shepherd of souls has placed all of contemporary society in a very vulnerable position by aiding and abetting a small but very vocal segment of secular society calling for a radial change on how homosexuality is viewed. How long will it take to move further down the slippery slop, once the moral relativists within the church body find nothing wrong will all manner of sexual deviance. If you are looking for the real problem, ask yourself, how does a homosexual society propagate and is sexual deviance learned behavior or is it predestined in your gene pool.

• eiriamach | Jun 02, 2012, 08:20 AM EDT

  LOL 89west, I am certainly not going to defend Henry VIII, and I have little love for monarchy! I'm sure you'd agree that the holiness of a Church does not depend upon holiness in its leaders or even its priests, right? Most Old Testament condemnations of 'homosexuality': this word, btw, does not appear in the King James Version, 1611 (it didn't exist), but is a modern *interpretation* of words referring to sexual immorality--ritual rapes of male youth by priests of the pagan temples in regions occupied by Israelites. You'll notice that even the VERY few New Testament new-translation references to homosexuality focus on males, a fact that again casts doubt on whether homosexuality is really the reference. It's unlikely that enough historical and biblical language evidence will emerge for scholars ever to be sure about those OT passages, and it would be interesting to find that they are ALL really condemning pedophilia--it's possible. And the contradictions about husband and wife in the NT is another enigma. Thus we stumble along to the real problem: Christians' reception of the Gospel is renewed/changed by such discoveries. So a Church must be able to confront its mistakes and undo them in a timely way to avoid their most harmful consequences. It must not be enslaved to the past.

• 89west | Jun 01, 2012, 07:22 PM EDT

  eirimach.......You have much to say in your several responses, however, let me try and respond to your 0828 hr. msg...The scripture I had cause to read and discuss over time, found homosexual behavior unacceptable and forcefully rejected such behavior. I further found, that the rejection of this behavior is not an arbitrary prohibition, it, like other moral imperatives is rooted in natural law. I prefer not to refute you statement on the lack of references to homosexuality by citing them from the NT, however, if need be, I can. Now of course, I must qualify what I say, by mentioning the RCC believes the words of JC are revealed to us in the gospels. Then again, JC's teachings were never written down by him, so if you are so inclined not to accept the NT, we are wasting our time. Going off track for a moment and while I'm on the NT, Peter 3:1-7 seems to be at odds with you on the role of the husband and wife in marriage. Anyway we can save that for another time. We can agree on the notion of moral relativism, however, for different reasons. Regarding the British sovereign being, "the defend of the faith"; she was conspicuously silent during the sectarian violence that plagued NI for years. Pedophilia apparently, is well rooted in many cultures and must be viewed as an international problem deserving of remediation, yes, nail those priest to the cross, however, they are only the tip of the ice burg. I'm sure you don't need me to elaborate, if you do, I can. If you believe in the OT, Moses came down from the mountain with 10 commandments and some are still defining them to suit their own needs. In point of fact, Henry VIII needed a divorce and created a church to provide him with one and that same church in our time, has evolved into a vehicle for social change that has overturned fundamental rules of natural law that has us on the road to Sodom and Gomorrah.

• eiriamach | Jun 01, 2012, 04:55 PM EDT

  89west, The Archbishop of Canterbury who said the words you quoted, "The Anglican communion, with 80m members, is well placed to be a major player," was George Carey, not Williams. Carey is conservative on questions of sexuality and accordingly pessimistic about the cohesiveness of the AC. The AB of C has some leadership roles in the AC, owing to history and tradition, and in fact the Queen is the titular-- female-- head of the Church of England, but issues of mission, morals, liturgy, priestly disciplines, etc., are decided by representatives of the world-wide provinces in conference. ABC Rowan Williams has tried to set a philosophical and theological direction. His ideas may prove more efficacious for unity after he leaves the Lambeth stage. The prophets, as Jesus pointed out when he foretold his own death, generally fail in their own generations and their native places, but others seize on their ideas and ultimately bring them to fulfillment. Thus the leaven works its way through the whole mass.

• eiriamach | Jun 01, 2012, 09:02 AM EDT

  89west, you write, "The only question ... is whether or not the moral code needs to be changed or modified to conform to a secular society who has lost touch with the fundamental teaching of the RCC." Again I endure the charge of moral relativism, which I have refuted so many times on IC, often dealing with Catholics who shift the blame for clerical pedophilia to "the spirit of the 1960s," "secularism," or sexualization of the social environment-- patent relativism and hypocrisy! The natural law and its *moral principles* do not change across the centuries or from one culture to another. Unfortunately, however, RCC is bound to its past papal teachings on moral "code." Thus it resists the grace that flows into an institution that remedies past errors. Case in point: In Castii Connubii, Pius XI taught that "this false liberty and unnatural equality [of a woman] with the husband is to the detriment of the woman herself" as well as harming marriage, children, and society. *Against* Christian teaching, he preached that women develop their humanity only when completely obedient to men, but as Paul teaches, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galtns 3:28). The legacy of bigotry and exclusion wrought by such past errors weighs heavily and blinds its adherents to the moral principles of Christ and his disciples. It's never too late to live up to the Gospel if you can face the sins of your past.

• eiriamach | Jun 01, 2012, 08:28 AM EDT

  89west, you are mistaken: "The case in point, homosexuality among the clergy and hierarchy and same sex marriages, etc. was and still is a fundamental tenet of the moral code as revealed by JC." I've scanned the New Testament looking for any word that Jesus of Nazareth spoke about homosexuality or same-sex marriage. It ain't there. Words that translate into English as "sexual immorality" virtually always refer to adultery. Yet I do not see the Catholic bishops working to criminalize adultery; I see them spending many million$ on making same-sex marriage illegal and discrimination against gays and women legal. Sex is not "dividing his Church." An unChristian obsession with other people's sex lives is dividing the bishops from the faithful. Pedophila? Anglicans have dealt with it: Episcopalian lay members are responsible for monitoring the welfare of all members. Vestry officers are legally and financially liable for offenses committed by priests; they watch for signs of pedophila. Your Church excludes laity from all aspects of governance and leaves bishops free to (mis)handle offenses by priests. How is that working out? As Bishops Murphy-O'Conner and Santer wrote in 1998, "The consciousness of human frailty in the exercise of authority ensures that Christian ministers remain open to criticism and renewal and above all to exercising authority according to the example and mind of Christ." The "example and mind of Christ" would find the process of debate and shared decision-making a surer path to unity than centralized autocracy. It was the process JC and disciples used in laying the foundation, and it's the process that will restore their original purpose.

• 89west | May 31, 2012, 07:50 PM EDT

  eriamach...Not too long ago, in a speech before the Genl. Assembly of the UN, the good Archbishop claimed, "The Anglican Communion, with 80m members is well placed to be a major player". From what I understand from you, the Archbishop had no standing to make such a statement. Well in reality, he was laughed off the pages in the British press. It clearly, indicates there is no one moral code or leader to direct the adherents in their quest for salvation. In my humble estimation protestantism is fragmented and often times it is found to be foundering amid current social trends and a social gospel that provides little direction for those who strive to know and live the teachings of Christ. The case in point, homosexuality among the clergy and hierarchy and same sex marriages, etc. was and still is a fundamental tenet of the moral code as revealed by JC. Yet Anglican churches choose to ignore these teachings and adapt to these current social trends and feel there is no consequences for their actions. The founder of the Church of England broke from Rome because of his desire for a divorce. Today sex is further dividing his Church and where will it stop??? Abortion, euthanasia, incest, pedophilia! The only question needing resolution is whether or not the moral code needs to be changed or modified to conform to a secular society who has lost touch with the fundamental teaching of the RCC. If one looks at the Protestant model, change and adaptation only splinters and confuses the doctrines and in short order most will find no relevancy in the institution of the church.

• EamonnDublin | May 31, 2012, 01:20 PM EDT

  I forgot - and OF COURSE, the Gardaí knew (know) what was (is) happening! Éamonn, Dublin, Ireland.

• EamonnDublin | May 31, 2012, 01:13 PM EDT

  "BulldogMania" - You are quite correct. Of course the Irish polticians knew what was happening, of course the media knew what was happening, of course Irish society in general knew what was happening, and none of them opened their mouths. Now, they rid themselves of any blame by piling it all onto the Catholic church. We have a "silence" agenda also at play in the Ireland of 2012. I have repeatedly written to the media asking why they NEVER discuss the possibility of forced child brides here, asking why nobody ever questions that when a young girl of, say, 13 years of age, goes "home" to Pakistan for the school holidays and does not return to school in Ireland, no questions are asked. It is simply ignored. I also ask why, when there are thousands of cases of "honour" beatings, and many cases of "honour" murders, in Britain every year, the Irish media also ignores the possibility of anything similar happening here - despite the fact that Britain is only next door to us. I have never, ever, received even one contact from the media asking if I could enlarge on this, and they have not discussed it. So, you see, Bulldog, we haven't changed at all, at all, at all! Whereas previously we were afraid to "insult" the Catholic church, nowadays we are similarly afraid to insult ("offend"?) Islam. And to those readers who criticise only the Catholic church, no, I am NOT changing the subject - it is the same subject and problem and I am simply pointing out that fact. In thirty years time from now, our children will be asking why WE did nothing to stop it. Éamonn, Dublin, Ireland.

• eiriamach | May 31, 2012, 12:26 PM EDT

  89west, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who recently announced his retirement, does not have responsibility "to govern the international body." You insist on giving the Anglican Communion the structure of hierarchy and comparing the Archbishop of Canterbury (others cite the Queen!) to the pope of Roman Catholicism. Except as envisioned in some forward-looking ecumenical documents of Second Vatican Council, the two church structures are incompatible. Shared governance is a fretted and often agonizingly slow way of moving forward, but as Churchill said about democracy, it's the worst form of government-- except for all the others! Its virtue is that its movement IS forward, not backward, and it cannot obstinately refuse to move. So progress--the outcome of reform--is slow. Another advantage: rescinding decisions is possible if their consequences are not good. About your assessment that AC has "regressed into national entities," if it's true, then again talk of "schism" makes no sense. The "entities" cooperate on issues of mutual concern. I cannot make you see this church structure in other than ersatz-Catholic terms, so I won't try further, but your last sentence misrepresents my words. Reform must begin within the organization. As the Irish example, as well as many others, shows, outsiders can coerce, oppress, appropriate and persecute, but they cannot change people who do not wish to change. You can't "lend a hand" to someone who refuses help. Whatever the history, you've nothing to fear from Anglicans today.

• BulldogMania | May 31, 2012, 10:43 AM EDT

  This seems like a good idea, provided it's not a bunch of liberals promoting their radical agenda. I live in America, and many of us here, Catholic and Protestant, believe the Irish are blaming the Church for sins well beyond those committed by the robed men of the altar. Yes, priests did horrible things...but it seems everyone in Ireland knew about it and no one did anything to stop it. Is all of this blame of the Church the national guilt of Ireland rising to the surface? As an Irish-American I'm deeply troubled by what happened and is happening in Ireland.

• 89west | May 30, 2012, 08:52 PM EDT

  eriamach....you may choose to deny their is a schism and even go so far as to say, "it cannot be applied to the Anglican Communion", however, the British press thinks otherwise and has expended barrels of ink on the topic. The Archbishop of Canterbury relinquished any right to govern the international body because as you say each entity is a democracy unto themselves. It is an illusion to speak of unity among Anglicans, at best they have regressed into national entities with little or no voice outside their own jurisdictions and often times from church to church. One of the founding tenets of the Church of England was a declaration that the bishop of Rome shall have no jurisdiction here and at the end of the Anglican Communion was the declaration -in effect- that the Bishop of Lagos won't have any jurisdiction either. Your gratuitous statement earlier on about lending a hand in reforming the RCC is a throw back in history to the Penal Law days in Ireland.

• southcountykelly | May 30, 2012, 07:38 PM EDT

  My personal contention is that those presently considering themselves Catholics and wishing to remain so, no matter what geographic zone....take over the facilitation of the organization called the Catholic Church. With that said..there would be no Canon Law, No Pope, no Cardinals no confessionals and certainly non of the self proclaimed pontificating that has gone on for centuries.

• eccles64 | May 30, 2012, 07:29 PM EDT

  The only thing to do to the EVIL ROTTEN ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH is to kick it out of Ireland, NOW!

• eiriamach | May 30, 2012, 06:50 PM EDT

  Gearoid, as I've said before, splits and fissures, chaos and conflict-- that's what reform always looks like from the outside (and sometimes from the inside as well). Most Christian churches are experiencing precipitous declines: one-third of American Catholics have departed theirs. The Pew Forum has the stats on most sects. As for the current pope, he has written canon law to undo the expectations raised by Vatican II that the laity would participate more fully in the life of the church than they had done. The deep disappointment of the laity over Rome's refusal to allow more openness accounts for many of the departures. There's much more. But the pope's efforts to reintegrate SSPX are perhaps the most telling. SSPX rejects the Church Constitution Lumen Gentium on collegiality of bishops in favor of Pius XII's view of papal decision-making, and it rejects LG's approach to ecumenism (no. 8); SSPX rejects Dignitatis Humanae on freedom of religion, and, of course, everything that is in conflict with Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors. There's much else in such demands that threatens to return RC to a set of feudal relationships, but space does not allow. And what's the point? It seems like a scholastic exercise to repeat this info.

• eiriamach | May 30, 2012, 06:26 PM EDT

  89west, the word "schism" makes no sense when applied to the Anglican Communion. You're trying to view Anglicanism's democratic decision-making processes through a monarchic, Vatican-papal lens. No two groups could be further apart in how they make decisions than RCs and Anglicans. Groups like the Anglican Church in North America break away from the Anglican Communion, yes, rather as SSPX and dozens of other erstwhile Catholic groups break with Rome, but Anglicans practice no excommunication. The Episcopal Church (ECUSA) seems to be the vanguard, with some Anglican Primates from other provinces refusing to attend conferences at which ECUSA Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori is present. Along with her election to the episcopacy, that of Gene Robinson (in a long-term gay relationship) has alienated some conservative Anglicans. Pope Benedict XVI exploited this conflict by setting up two ordinariates for Anglicans who refuse to work with female or gay clerics. So there is a sorting-out, I guess I'd call it, taking place along political lines, of conservatives and progressives within the AC, as there is generally in Christendom at present. You can see the same in the USCCB's alignment with fundamentalist / evangelical groups co-sponsoring its letters and lawsuits against the Obama administration. The difference is that Anglicans are not staging a rear-guard action against the modern world, but finding ways of being Christian within it by re-forming the Body of Christ.

• Gearoid4 | May 30, 2012, 06:03 PM EDT

  It is nonsense, Eiriamach to state that Pope Benedict XV1 "rejects the reforms of Vatican 11", when he was an insider concerning the proceedings over the course of the 3 years that the deliberations took place. He was there in the esteemed capacity of peritus(theological expert), representing Cardinal Frings of Cologne. He wisely has come to recognize, the spiritual damage done by the misapplication of the teachings and practices of the Great Council, in the name of the "spirit of Vatican 11". He will continue to lead the Church as mandated by Vatican 11, in his unobtrusive but very effective way. You refer to the Anglican communion as moving as a "sustainable community, seeing it as one in which that circulates". But the global Anglican church has really broken up into it's constituent parts, with the northern, liberal, richer provinces e.g US moving further away from the more conservative, biblically-oriented southern provinces e.g Nigeria. Thus the kind of reforms that you are advocating for the Catholic church have resulted in very serious splits and decline in influence and numbers in the "mainline" protestant churches in western nations.

• 89west | May 30, 2012, 04:45 PM EDT

  Canada & Eirimach......Canada, quote ....."like most Americans, the RCCs are arrogant to think they are the only ones going to heaven".....how did you come up with that absurdity??? Hasn't ecumenicalism reached Canada??........ Eirimach......It is my understanding a schism exists within the Anglican Communion regarding homosexuality that threatens to divide the Church. If you don't consider it too obtrusive of me, please provide your input on this issue, that is, if you don't mind to do so.

• eiriamach | May 30, 2012, 01:36 PM EDT

  Anglicans are at work on how to ensure that a civil society or a Church endures: "sustainable community, seeing it as one in which what circulates ... is the mutual creation of capacity, building the ability of the other person or group to become, in turn, a giver of life and responsibility... this is what is at the heart of St Paul's ideas about community at its fullest" (AB Rowan Williams, 2010). And as Pope John Paul II wrote, Jesus' prayer "that all may be one" is a "binding imperative" on Christians NOT to separate themselves nor to drive people out of the churches, but to reunite them. The Catholic Church needs reform of this kind even more, while Ben XVI rejects the reforms of Second Vatican Council. The disconnect between hierarchy and people in the pews grows and wreaks havoc, and all for nothing because the USCCB's lawsuits are sure to lose and the ACP's Assembly will not dis-assemble. All of this while the Anglican Communion rides out the storm-ravaged seas of the culture wars, the followers clinging to the hull of their fishing boat, holding onto each other, drenched by waves, whipped by the sneers posted by some here (Matt 14:22ff). That's the Church that Jesus promised would prevail against the gates of Hell. It'll prevail as long as we keep the apostolic fishing boat in good repair: as long as we continue to reform the Anglican Communion. And when RCC gets around to reform-- if ever-- Anglicans will know how to lend a hand.

• ProudCanadian | May 30, 2012, 11:51 AM EDT

  89 why do you say that I hate when it is the Catholic church that condems homosexuals and does not allow there clergy to marry to stop the sexual abuse and does not permitt women to be priests. All I'm saying is the Catholic church is behind the times. I don't hate the Church and there are things the Anglican church must change also but I believe that the Anglicans are making an attempt(allowing gays in there church allowing women bo be ministers and of course the priests can marry) to change where the RCC's are not and that is the difference. But that is your choice and I respect you for that.

• Portia777 | May 30, 2012, 09:39 AM EDT

  Bythebay The Catholic Church in Ireland bears no resemblance whatsoever to the church Christ founded. It has been a force for demeaning, diminishing and ridiculing the Irish people in ways the British could never accomplish. Its demise is at hand."So true. In fact the Roman church murdered millions of followers of Jesus- Cathars, Irish etc. It may interest people to study history and learn that Pope Adrian 1V gave Ireland and all her people as slaves to the British King Henry 11 to keep us under control on behalf of the Vatican. We did not convert by choice. We had our own spiritual church based on Love - just like the Cathars and where ever there is Love on Earth, the men of Roma go in for the kill.Just as Jesus was murdered... for slaughter energy is the food of the church of Roma- War ....opposite is Amor = Love.it is all there in front of us but we are so brainwashed to believe what we were brainwashed with- The men of God rewrote our history too.

• 89west | May 30, 2012, 07:15 AM EDT

  canada...as said before, your lack of objectivity and credibility is defined by what you say. Further, either you choose to ignore what was said or have a very low comprehension level, which is it? You are seething with hostility and find it convenient to release your negative emotions on a Church and a Nation that has never done anything against you, your Country or your Church. Like the rest of the minions on this site, continue to submerge yourself in the cesspool of hatred.

• ProudCanadian | May 30, 2012, 12:22 AM EDT

  89 I don't profess to know alot of the Catholic church but I do know that they do not allow everyone who beleives in God into there church and that is against the teaching of the lord. And far as the biases of the people on here that is really calling the kettle black. Anyone who would except and continue to back a religion that condones there clergy of sexual abuse is very biase and has a great lack of knowlege. Like I said before religion has nothing to do with the Bible and the teachings of Jesus it is all man made and that includes all religions and that is why there is so much strife in the world of religion. If I am Anglican than my religion is the best right. No that is wrong it is just the religion I choose, right or wrong. But like Americans the RCC's are arrogant enough to thing they are the only ones going to heaven, but with there record I wouldn't be to sure. Just saying seeing I lack so much knowledge.

• 89west | May 29, 2012, 10:18 PM EDT

  canada...it is apparent you are not familiar with the schism that is threatening to destroy the Anglican Church and yet you vociferously speak about the demise of the RCC. Unfortunately, like many on here your biases and lack of knowledge of RCC dogma and teachings only highlight your lack of objectivity and credibility.

• eiriamach | May 29, 2012, 06:10 PM EDT

  Fr Hoban's words quoted in the article ("We have a right and a duty to discuss the problems facing the church. Silencing us will not make the issues go away") remind me of a scene from the film Part II of Mario Puzo's "The Godfather." Vatican spokesman Abbandando is speaking to the press: "The order of St. Sebastian is one of the highest honors the Catholic Church can bestow upon a layman. The award was first granted by Pope Gregory...." A reporter interrupts him: "What about Mr. Corleone’s connections with Las Vegas gambling?" Abbandando ignores him and continues: "Presskits have pictures of,..." but the reporter interrupts again: "What about his involvements with the underworld?" Abbandando turns on the reporter and sternly silences him: "Hey, cut the crap, huh? The Pope--the Holy Father himself--has this very day blessed Michael Corleone; and you think you know better than the Pope?" I don't want to be a pessimist, so Buona Fortuna ACP!

• ProudCanadian | May 29, 2012, 03:58 PM EDT

  Hey 89west when was the last time you saw a gay couple in the Catholic church? There are many gay persons going to the Anglican Church and there have been many that have been married, another thing that you would never see in the Catholic Curch. The Catholic Church must come into the 21st century or like Bythebay has stated its demise is at hand. Markday and Portia777 I agree with you, we allow Jesus to do all our bidding, he has given us a choice and we have abused it. There are two many religions taking the bible to literal and for there own interpretation. Jesus is love people so lets love everyone. Hell I even love Murhp46.

• 89west | May 29, 2012, 02:01 PM EDT

  Surely, the historic evolution of the RCC is worthy of more than an off the cuff comment and then to displace one's personal hostilities and blame onto the RCC is ludicrous. However, for sure, the purported demise of the RCC goes hand in hand with the other declining indicators found in your society. Let those who have a love and desire to strengthen the RCC do so and let the detractors go out and worship as they choose to do or not do.

• Bythebay | May 29, 2012, 12:57 PM EDT

  The Catholic Church in Ireland bears no resemblance whatsoever to the church Christ founded. It has been a force for demeaning, diminishing and ridiculing the Irish people in ways the British could never accomplish. Its demise is at hand.

• Portia777 | May 29, 2012, 11:58 AM EDT

  SeamusMor. The recent sex abuse scandal is no more than a tragic foot note in it's proud history. It's the Irish that need reforming, not the Church." So you call the Inquisition and the crusades- murder, rape, pillaging our proud history. Then you do not know your his story very well. May I remind you that we had out own church- not pagan either, long before the Roman church came over, slaughtered us into submission under their yoke. You are free to remain their slave, but the rest of us Irish will decide for ourselves too. if you wish to get back to mass- sacrificing ritual- you go right ahead and if you drink the wine/blood, do double check it beforehand.

• Portia777 | May 29, 2012, 10:35 AM EDT

  celticsweetieThat said I applaud my fellow believers in Christ for striving to improve our earthly worship of our Savior" Jesus is not your savior. Only you can save yourself. Jesus showed us the way, but he cannot do the work for us. That is a cop out for lazy people and for the men of god hoodwinking sheeple to give their power over to them.-- and charge you as well. what a scam

• alkil29 | May 29, 2012, 08:06 AM EDT

  Local Church of Ireland Minister Earl Storey has served as Rector in parishes both in Northern Ireland and the Republic and is committed to working for two things – renewal within the context of a local church and reconciliation in our community. Here he talks to Eamonn Baker of the Diverse-City project about his life as a Minister, why he stepped out of parish ministry in 2005 to stand for election for the Ulster Unionist Party, his involvement in the Church of Ireland’s “Hard Gospel” project and the path his life is now taking.

• 89west | May 29, 2012, 07:29 AM EDT

  canada.....What about the Anglican schism over homosexuality? Hasn't the Anglican Church of Canada been asked to withdraw from the Consultative Council? You hardly seem qualified to discuss RCC dogma when you neglect to mention that the seat of the Anglican Church will have to move to Africa because of the impending split. Yes, you have nothing against the RCC BUT....What pretentious hypocrites can be found among this bunch!

• IrelandNorth | May 29, 2012, 06:55 AM EDT

  Undoubtedly well intentioned! But can an institutional dinosaur be reformed? Did not that German Augustinian Friar in Wurms attempt that before, only to give rise to a substituitive orthodoxy. When in doubt about matters tehological, always go for the syntehsis of the Wolf-Tonian dialectic of Catholic - Protestant - and Dissenter. Little point in protesting religiously if one doesn't unite politically.

• markday | May 29, 2012, 01:59 AM EDT

  Mairint: I agree with you. Here is my take on Matthew 16:18 "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church. And you may accept bribes and kickbacks from Vatican vendors and construction companies. And you can persecute gays and women. And nobody will question you, because everyone owes you blind obedience. And if anyone complains about clergy sex abuse, you can blame the media, secular society, anti-Catholicism, or those damn attorneys. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against you, because anyone who disagrees with you will go there anyway. But first you may excommunicate them. And by the way, keep an eye on “Maria.”

• celticsweetie | May 29, 2012, 01:43 AM EDT

  I'm a Protestant in the US who feels that as long as you believe in Jesus it does not matter what man made organized religion you belong to. Boiled down it's all basically the same- rules for worship created by man are going to be flawed because we are human. That said I applaud my fellow believers in Christ for striving to improve our earthly worship of our Saviour. I think we are on the verge of change that will improve all religions. I will pray for God's guidance as we go forward and love in our hearts for one another and caring for those of different views. I think that this may be the beginning of history being made and for all sides of the issues ask this: How do we want to be remembered in future years? There should not be "winners or losers". As an old hymn goes "Keep your eyes upon Jesus and look full into His wonderful face! Peace.

• ProudCanadian | May 28, 2012, 10:14 PM EDT

  Hey mairint there is nothing wrong in any religion it is man that has distroyed it , like everything else by saying that his religion is the one to follow. The Anglican church yes has it's problems but it allows anyone who believes in Jesus to worship there. We are all Gods children and the sooner that RCC's and other religions who show hatred towards people who they deem bad realize that and stop the hatred and teach love as Jesus did, then they will come into the 21st century and the world will be better off. I have nothing against the Catholic church it is the barbaric attitude that it carries that bothers me. I'm sure that Jesus would not care if a women preached his word or anyone else for that matter and if the clergy could marry there wouldn't be the terrible sexual abuse that has gone on. Oh by the way the Anglicans are able to go to any church of there choosing without the threat of excumuication another thing that has to be dealt with so the Catholic church can progress into modern times.

• eiriamach | May 28, 2012, 08:17 PM EDT

  In the USA, long-needed reform is coming slowly as a result of pressure from the court system along with attention from the media. Though their abuse cases are 40 years old, "Msgr. George J. Mazzotta, 73, and Msgr. Hugh P. Campbell, 77, who were ordained in the 1960s and held a series of positions in Philadelphia-area parishes and hospitals," have finally been removed from ministry by their dioceses (NY Times). The Church that claims to be "semper reformandum" had to be pushed strongly, but finally, there is some response.

• mairint | May 28, 2012, 07:24 PM EDT

  It is always clear that the folks who kick and scream against the Church are not even practicing Catholics so - what do they know? How many of you running this website "Irishcentral" are actually true Catholics? It becomes more apparent that one of the purposes of this site is to provide a conduit for spewing Catholic hatred. You do not know about the worldwide growth of the Traditional Catholic Church. Intelligent and educated young people are discovering what the modernists tried to destroy in the '60's (and even earlier as St.Pius X wrote and warned about). The Remnant survived and the flame is burning bright again. A smaller, purer Church with God at the centre instead of the 'me, myself and I' version, is where the True Church will live on 'til the end of time'. Deo Gratias.

• 89west | May 28, 2012, 07:13 PM EDT

  To those smug people on here who gloat over the demise of the RCC, fail to recognize this is nail in your coffin. Sadly, it is another indicator of a failed society. Gone are the banks, financial institutions and a cohesive political system. The downward spiral is further exacerbated by the inability to sustain essential services and entitlements along with the disillusionment of the native population who are voting with their feet. You are slipping and sliding into the Third World and you can't look elsewhere for the villain.

• mairint | May 28, 2012, 07:06 PM EDT

  There they go again another Protestant Church. Why bother, move over to the diminishing Anglicans. There you have your married priests, homosexuals, women priests - wow, even bishops, and you do not have to recognize the successor of St. Peter! There, all done for you. No? Not destructive enough for you? Not dramatic enough?

• aloistmartin | May 28, 2012, 05:11 PM EDT

  The Solution is Simple as Separation of Church and State. You "New Church" People are never satisfied. If the Mass of the Catechumans Isn`t Good Enough for you, Reconvert to Judaism !

• ProudCanadian | May 28, 2012, 04:47 PM EDT

  Seanmor what I'm saying is, let the clergy marry,allow women to be priests and lay off the people who are gay. Jesus was for love not biggotry and hate. The only way to acheive that is to get rid of the piety(The Pope).

• Bythebay | May 28, 2012, 03:31 PM EDT

  Long past due! Brady, Martin and others out. Sell all the Bishops Palaces! Bring to justice all abusers and enablers.

• Seanmor | May 28, 2012, 03:16 PM EDT

  As A Catholic who occasionally attends srveives in churches of other denominations, especially the Methodhist church of which my wife is a member, I'm interedted to know if the reforms sought by ACP include making attendence of Sunday mass optional and no longer mandatory.

• Seanmor | May 28, 2012, 03:14 PM EDT

  If by "reform" you mean making the church into their own image, that is not reform. We see where that took us with the so-called Reformation. It divided Christianity into hundreds of denominations all with differing self-appointed beliefs and interpretations. Real reform would be to return the Church to it's traditional teachings as handed down from Christ to the apostles. Anything less is man's self-serving agenda which is always based on his fallen hedonistic moral relativism.

• Murph46 | May 28, 2012, 03:05 PM EDT

  Huge job that! Good fricki luck!

• ProudCanadian | May 28, 2012, 02:39 PM EDT

  The only way to reform the Catholic church is to get rid of the pope and come up to the 21 century. Get with the times RCC's. The medieval days are over. SeamusMor, that is the problem with the Catholic Church it is 2000 years old and is hanging on to its history and not progressing.

• ChillaKilla | May 28, 2012, 02:30 PM EDT

  Don't you find it just a wee bit comical, and rather self-serving besides, that the people most interested in changing, modifying and otherwise 'reforming' the Church are those who have NOTHING to do with it? The haters, the bashers, the bitter critics, those who have ran afoul of the doctrines, people who feel judged and condemned by their choices, those who would like nothing better than to see the Church destroyed, the ones who want to extract from it a pound of flesh for every little disappointment and disregard they think they suffered while in it, the resentful against the entire body of the Church because they --or someone they know-- suffered at the hands of an evil priest; and worse yet, the relentless complaining of people who aren't even Catholic!... But I thought some 500 years ago we had gone through that whole Lutheran engendered 'change cataclysm.' Did that not work out at all for all of you... the 'I wanna have it MY WAY bunch?'.... Don't we now have some 30 thousand sects that can accommodate every quirk, prejudice, strain of thought, crazy theories, outlandish demands, and quasi-religious appetites known to man?.... Must we continue to put up with the unending wail of blood hounds gnawing at our heels, trying to destroy what you had no part in building up?....From what I see, many of us are damn tired of seeing this website dedicated to pushing slanted, biased and badly researched articles dealing with Catholic issues. The intent from the writers [with few exceptions], and of the editorial staff, seems to be to draw eyeballs to this place, rather than to report with integrity. That is despicable!

• Nicomax | May 28, 2012, 01:36 PM EDT

  Returning Catholicism as a state religion in Ireland, or for that matter anywhere else, is a stunningly bad idea. America's Founders knew this implicitly and carved it into our constitution. Other countries should do the same. The endless Christian religious wars in Europe over the centuries, and recent Islamic radicalism continues to prove the point that governments must be secular.

• DrMcHugh | May 28, 2012, 12:24 PM EDT

  Sadly, SeamusMor, the priest sexual abuse scandal is not over. You may not want to believe that, and that is your right if you wish to remain unaware of the truth.

• SeamusMor | May 28, 2012, 12:04 PM EDT

  The Catholic Church is 2000 years old, and in another 2,000 years it will be 4,000 years old. The recent sex abuse scandal is no more than a tragic foot note in it's proud history. It's the Irish that need reforming, not the Church. They are the ones who replaced Catholicism with Capitalism as the state religion, exchanging greed for grace. Politicians, not priests have let the nation down. The Irish lost their moral compass when they turned their backs on the Church and they have run their ship of state onto the rocks as a result. This group is trying to form a fire brigade to douse flames where only cold ashes remain. THE SEX ABUSE SCANDAL IS OVER. NEW POLICIES LIMIT THE POTENTIAL FOR FUTURE ABUSE, AND NIP IT IN THE BUD WHERE IT OCCURS OR WHEN IT IS EVEN SUSPECTED. Let's move on, go back to weekly Mass, and return to working together as a Catholic community to pool our energy and resources to help others in need.

• DrMcHugh | May 28, 2012, 12:01 PM EDT

  This is wonderful to read that Ireland is taking the lead in the reform of the Catholic Church for the common good of everyone in the church. However, it seems to me that the ACP is seeing reform through eyes still steeped in clericalism. I believe that the best way for the ACP to be successful in achieving church reform, is for there to be one body of all voices of the faithful, instead of this fragmentation by having the priests meet in Mayo and the lay people meet in Dublin on the same night. Nowadays, since Vatican II, there are so many well educated lay people in the church who have a lot to contribute to the healthier reform of the church. I ask the ACP to have the greater vision and to organize meetings where all of the faithful can work together and have their voices heard for the good of the church. Sincerely, Dr Rosemary Eileen McHugh, Chicago, Illinois, USA

• ciaradexy | May 28, 2012, 11:47 AM EDT

  celticqueen, we are a small island but we are not a catholic society anymore and this will not change. The church has lost its grip. We think for ourselves and dont believe the fairy tales or in the 'faith' we were indoctrinated into. People are sending their kids to Educate Together schools and want less schools in the grasp of the catholic church. We want them gone and they will be gone, very soon.

• ciaradexy | May 28, 2012, 11:45 AM EDT

  Goodbye churchie! We will be glad to see the back of you, infact, we are lloking at the back of you right now! About 20% attend mass these days and these are the elderly. I live across the road from the Legion of Mary office on South Circular road. They have a lovely illuminated statue of Mary in one window and a statue that looks like something the nazi's used in the other. I have never seen anyone under the age of 80 going in or out. Brilliant!

• CelticQueenUSA | May 28, 2012, 11:14 AM EDT

  I think the Irish will lead the way to reform in the Catholic Church. It's a small island but has many many people of great will and intelligence. I am for your mission!!! Cannot come soon enough.

• hermitTalker | May 28, 2012, 10:28 AM EDT

  The Pope named a new layman to head the Vatican Bank to absolutely clear it of money laundering charges it had faced- now he is gone. There are personal, private communications between himself and his worldwide diplomats and internal Vatican issues that were leaked. No conspiracy or internal restructuring needed, just dumping people who want power and cash and book sales. The ACP statement is quite welcome- no genuine Catholic reform is possible without union inside and respect for stated given Church teachings. This has not been the song-sheet that the silenced dissidents were practicing from. Te relationships between priests and their bishops, within the diocesan clergy and whatever deeper spiritual bonding needs to take place at the parish level, other than the priest being the honourary GAA patron are legitimate issues and absoluttely cricial for a healthy, openly honest local Church, parish and diocesan and national level. Sin is always with us but as St Paul ssays "where sin abounded, grace did more abound." Taking the stigma from all priests active today for the sins and neglect of the past is a key element in that discussion which involves all of the nation and its media outlets.

• eiriamach | May 28, 2012, 09:40 AM EDT

  Now's the time to work out alternatives to traditional church structure, while the Vatican is crumbling under its own weight. Vatican spokesman Fr. Federico Lombardi told Reuters press today, according to the NY Times, "The faith of Roman Catholics in their Church has been damaged by a scandal over leaked documents in which the pope's butler has been arrested, the Vatican said on Monday." Did the butler do it? This is what gets their attention-- money laundering at the Vatican bank-- Wikileaks? I think Noel McCann has a better sense of what a church should pay attention to.