33 Comments

• eiriamach | Aug 11, 2012, 02:25 PM EDT

  Well done, Andrew007! ~~~~~ However, I expect no one can shake hermitTalker from the dilemma that the sexual abuse scandals leave Church Defenders in. Reliance on Vatican Authority keeps their insecurity at bay, so they cannot break with the Vatican's centuries-old, forever-increasing rules on sexuality, even though these rules have no scriptural basis. (Jesus condemned only adultery.) By RC's doctrine, sex abuse by a priest is a "grave crime"-- as though we would not realize that if Canon law did not tell us! On the other side of the dilemma, they distrust theologians like Paul Tillich, who offer a path out of the gloomy theology that keeps priests living celibate lives, removed from healthy human relationships with others, and keeps churchmen obsessed with sexuality. Tillich taught that "Sin is separation" from God and others, as well as from our own God-given destiny. No, the Vatican insists, clerical separateness, a male-only priesthood, and celibacy are good. Vox Clara has even embedded the special high status of priests in its new Roman Missal translation. Abusive priests stand absolutely condemned on the old understanding of sin/salvation, and the Church cannot break with its past to consider any other theology of sin/ salvation. A more realistic view, based on knowledge of human nature and natural law as well as scripture, values equality-based relationships, which priests need as much as anyone else to avoid exploiting others sexually, financially, or emotionally.

• hermitTalker | Aug 11, 2012, 11:28 AM EDT

  Thank you andrew007 for your spirited posts. I shall not repeat the first post I made about my rejection of the evil of minor abuse and a brief effort to show how and why no addicition was seen "way back when" as having components other than moral/intellectual failure. That is crucial. I also cited the line from the Penitentials, excuse my earlier "sic" which I studied at the post-graduate level to show that sexual activity was a concern for the early monks as confessors in the sacrament. The OT and the entire history of Humanity is riddled with sexual sins- and that includes non-Roman, married and single clergy as well as married and single female and male. That excuses no abuse, or fornication or adultery but it does show that Catholic clergy have no monopoly on sin, whatever kind. Jesus' worst condemnations were reserved to those who KNEW better, that word KNOW is key, because as you also know He asked His Father to forgive those who did not KNOW what they were doing- not brain knowledge, but a lack of what we understand better today as a human-body-soul-spiritual package. More than "book knowledge" which His High Priestly and Pharasaic accusers and condemners had for sure. "In Spades" as we say! The correct understanding of the body and sexual-genital activity was part of the reason why Genesis was written, bad god made the physical and sex, GOD said it is GOOD, that dualism/negativity persists through Puritanism, Jansenism, before those by Albigensians and in Augustine's time, Mani. We are still obsessed with it in the culture and that applies to the exaggerations of the extent of clerical scandal in the Roman Church whose hierarchical structure was an easy target for critics and unscrupulous litigants- who does one sue in a Baptist congregation or in a State school, until the culture gets over its hate-jealousy of Catholics and their Church's teachings and plays fair all round.

• Andrew007 | Aug 10, 2012, 03:13 PM EDT

  @hermitTalker: P.S. (I wrote the post at Aug 10, 2012, 03:05 PM EDT, but my name didn't show for some reason, despite being logged in) In response to your comment "let Jesus be Lord and Judge of His Church", I would also remind you that "judgement begins at the House of God". If Matt 18:10, Luke 17:10, Rev 3:16 and Matthew 25:31-46 (&.c)are anything to go by, God's actions are likely to be extremely severe.

• Andrew007 | Aug 10, 2012, 03:05 PM EDT

  @hermitTalker: while I understand what you're saying regarding the many recorded glories of the RC Church and about the evils of abortion in general, in your spirited defence of the Church I think you're missing the point regarding the degree of evil contained within the issue of clerical abuse of minors. You might say "The same tired cant about minor abuse, as if the Catholic Church has a monopoly on sin since the start! The Irish Penetentials [sic] dealt with the "sinful playing of young boys" in their treatment of various sins.", as if it's all resolved and accounted for, but it very (painfully) clearly is not. The proven fact that there have been widespread cover-ups by the hierarchy makes them complicit. As I've commented below to Nicoletta (and elsewhere), the problem of abuse and complicity has occurred to such an extent in so many countries in the West that it must be regarded as systemic, and until such time as it's accounted for and the evil-doers purged from the priesthood (incl. those in the hierarchy), the RC Church AS A WHOLE (even the innocent) stands accused and publicly tainted with this dreadful crime. This means that the RC Church’s much-needed voice on moral issues in society has been drowned out by the cries of pain and anger from the innocent who’ve been betrayed. Secondly, I’d suggest that you dare not even try to minimise the utterly indefensible. The clerical abuse of minors is an utterly evil act beyond compare, which isn’t just a crime against an innocent child but is also a betrayal (worse than even Judas’) of trust, faith, and God Himself, and as the Bible VERY clearly indicates (mentioned below in my msg to Eiriamach), their hellish punishment will be especially severe.

• ciaradexy | Aug 10, 2012, 10:39 AM EDT

  Mairint, people are baptised into the catholic church without their approval as they are babies when this happens therefore the label 'catholic' applies to them. Many want out officially and thats why the Count me out website was so popular. The church got scared and changed canon law so people couldnt officially leave. People here dont believe in god, thats why they arent joining.

• eiriamach | Aug 09, 2012, 06:53 PM EDT

  "And let Jesus be Lord and Judge of His Church," HermitTalker says. That judgment will arrive eventually, but in the meantime, Jesus wants churchmen to submit to the criminal law, like everyone else. Expect critical scrutiny as long as RC continues to claim superiority to state law to elude prosecution. Isn't it nifty how HermitTalker thinks male priests who engage in "sinful playing of young boys" are nowhere near as bad as females who abort a pregnancy, never mind the reason or life saved or suffering averted by an abortion or the life devastated by pedophilia. No man can ever sin as grievously as any woman can, according to HermitTalker. Wouldn't it be convenient for men if God set aside a category of sin that only women can commit? Men would always have a sin to condemn with no danger of hypocrisy. But that's not how the moral universe is set up. Does the existence of abortion in this world mean that we should overlook pedophilia? Do you imagine Jesus saying to an abusive priest, "Oh, don't worry about YOUR sin; it's not an 'absolute moral zero.'"? Marant leaped to a completely unwarranted conclusion about Dr. McHugh's position, and HermitTalker followed. Dr. McHugh wrote nothing about abortion. But that attack mode is typical for these two: if they cannot respond to the argument, they attack the person who makes it. If they cannot defend a position, they attack their critics. If their position is indefensible, they distract people with chatter about "code phrase" and "absolute moral zero."

• hermitTalker | Aug 09, 2012, 12:15 PM EDT

  big daddy: I do not follow Fox News nor do I subscribe to any extreme causes. I am a centrist Catholic beleiver, neither Left tilting nor Right leaning, Consistent Ethic of Life which makes me neither one or the other, nor captured by any particular political party. I point you to mairint's comment about Dr McHugh- "reproductive rights" we understand the code phrase; priests are somehow criticised by being loyal to Jesus- does Dr Mc thumb her nose at Illinois, US or her hospital's credentials? And so on. The same tired cant about minor abuse, as if the Catholic Church has a monopoly on sin since the start! The Irish Penetentials dealt with the "sinful playing of young boys" in their treatment of various sins. Sexual sin is not the worst, even if some abuse stories of child rape are more emotionally horrific, but abortion is an absolute moral zero, an ultimate act of raw evil. Believers cannot compromise- we are for all sacred human Life or we are not true believers. I return to the basic, we are Christians if we repent, accept forgivness by seeing our sins and share that un-conditional Love with others. And let Jesus be Lord and Judge of His Church which he founded on sinners and still does, but the Grace abounds more as the converted sinner Paul wrote for us.

• Andrew007 | Aug 09, 2012, 12:07 AM EDT

  @Nicoletta, this RC sex-abuse scandal isn't just because of Irish priests, but because the abominable abuse of innocent children by priests has occurred in MANY countries in the west since at least the 19thC (and includes the USA, Australia, France, Spain, Holland, Germany, Italy & etc), which has been exacerbated by the silence, inaction and effective complicity of the RC hierarchy. This points to a shocking level of corruption, godlessness and hypocrisy within the clergy to such an obviously widespread degree that one can only conclude that the rot must be systemic (at least in the west). Forget about following the Pope, these men weren’t even following Jesus Christ!!! I firmly believe that the RC Church has been critically damaged by the horrendous scandals, and until such time as the clergy is PURGED of the evil-doers and humbly accounts for its grievous sins before both God and Man, then the ossified hierarchy will continue to expose itself to the just wrath of a betrayed, hurt and angered God and Man, and the “crisis of legitimacy” spoken of by Eiriamach below will continue to strike at the heart of the RC Church (despite the very many good, kind and decent children of God within it).

• Nicoletta | Aug 08, 2012, 07:45 AM EDT

  IMHO this is also because so many of the priests in Ireland are not following the Pope. It will take time, but the Catholic faith in Ireland will one day reemerge, stronger than ever and more faithful than ever to the Holy Father. Deo Gratias.

• Andrew007 | Aug 08, 2012, 07:19 AM EDT

  Eiriamach, your words regarding this article have been erudite and, heartbreakingly, sadly all too accurate. Your question to hermitTalker "Where is Jesus?" in all of this, is both compelling and confronting, and the answer must surely be that He has been weeping alongside the tragic and innocent victims of abominable clerical abuse, and storing up wrath for the evil doers. Jesus Christ especially prized innocent children, saying "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven” (Matt 18:10), and warning “It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones” (Luke 17:2). The "crisis of legitimacy" of which you rightly speak, must surely be a result of this outward proof of an apparently widespread inner corruption, which has now been exposed for what it is. Jesus Himself explicitly warned His followers of the “leaven” (hypocrisy and false piety) of the Pharisees, saying “So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth (Rev 3:16)”; and He also explicitly warned of the consequences should people mistreat one another but claim belief in Him, saying “… Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ …‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’" (Matthew 25:31-46). Surely this is a message for such a time as this?

• eiriamach | Aug 07, 2012, 09:17 PM EDT

  hermitTalker, your comments are confused, nearly incoherent, and perhaps that confusion is a sign that you're receiving little help with your project from any providential spirit. Some clarity, however, emerges from your confusion. It is clear that you have made unwarranted attacks on Dr. McHugh, whose analysis, as others have noticed, is accurate, fact-based, and useful in understanding RC's loss of vocations. It is also clear from your futile attack that no progress will happen until RC officials begin to *listen* and consider the legitimacy of suggestions such as Dr. McHugh's. It is clear, most sadly, that you are utterly lacking in compassion for the millions of traumatized ex-Catholics who feel compelled in conscience to separate from the Church they once loved and supported. Finally, It is clear that you delude yourself with fantasies of a thriving religious organization, whereas Roman Catholicism is actually in its death throes in Ireland, the USA, and elsewhere. I suggest that you apply Dr. McHugh's question to your own disordered thinking: "Where is Jesus" in your words?

• BigDaddy | Aug 07, 2012, 12:34 PM EDT

  I suppose the church needs true believers, too. People who are willing to accept anything that church leaders tell them is true. But having grown up in an Irish Catholic family, and having been an altar boy, I remember the nuns imparting to us the "Suffer the little children to come unto me" part of Christ's teachings. I never interpreted that to mean it was acceptable to sexually abuse them and then have the "Vicar of Christ's" right hand man hide the fact (vigorously conceal) that it was going on. Divine Revelation, really? Which part of the Holy Trinity OK'd pedophilia? And grown men walking around dressed in gold and precious jewels, owning a priceless collection of art, and endless land holdings while millions of God's children starve is part of which gospel? How easy it must be to ignore the Inquisition, the Crusades, the persecution of scientists and the church's becoming more of a corporation than a vehicle for transmitting the message of Christ and just follow where you are led. Wait a minute? Isn't that why people denounce Islam and those who follow it's teachings? For ignoring reality and refusing to see what blind allegiance leads to? That Dr. McHugh still refers to herself as Catholic while maintaining the ability to see it's flaws gives me hope for the church. Of course that would mean ordaining more women and less Hitler youth but it might happen. God works in mysterious ways I'm told.

• hermitTalker | Aug 07, 2012, 11:45 AM EDT

  Apparently my transition from noting the destructive commetns of Dr McHugh and similar negative posts by others was not smooth. I wanted the readers to raise heads and eyes to see the current natural crisis caused by this drought to focus beyond anti-Church, anti-Pope and anti-Natural Law and anti-bilical comments. There is no global entity today that has the structure or principles of Natural Law and Divine Revelation as the Roman Catholic Christian Community. Each of us can dismiss it as Mozart's critic did "Your opera has too many notes, I do not like it" but a fair reading of History will show that it built civilisation in the West and continues to do the same for the rest of the world, including dialogue with Islam even as the Western powers continue to antagonise it by their tactics and their own political needs with elections coming up and coalitions shaking. The papal teachings for the last 100 years provided a blue-print for a system, not a complete plan for the Builders, bot principes based on Love and justice in the style of the Hebrew Prpohets and Jesus' Beatutides and the commentary thereon in MT and LK. Diverting rivers to serve more than those within State borders, same for rain clouds, finding other aquifers and ways to use melting snow and excessive ran to irrigate wide areas are as doable as landing Curiousity on Mars for 1.5 billion. How about diverting uselless, wasted war budgets to serving the wider needs of the Global Village. Seems to be a more productive use of spiritual energy and human resources and God's creation than focusing on some "spots and wrinkles" on Christ's Bride's Garment and making arguments to undermine the LAW of GOD that neither State nor Church have the right to undo.

• IrelandNorth | Aug 07, 2012, 06:49 AM EDT

  Where recruitment fails, conscription may succeed. Alas, all orthodoxies lead astray. "Religion was the devil's greatest achievement!" Religion is as great a distraction to spirituality as law is to justice, though both concepts are very often misconstrued. Time to consider heterodoxy.

• mairint | Aug 06, 2012, 10:52 PM EDT

  There are none so ignorant as the (often Irish) folk who claim the Catholic title yet condemn the church and the basics of being a Catholic. Dr. Rosemary McHugh is just typical. She obviously supports killing the unborn child (womens reproductive blah blah...) and implies that priests are all bad. Then there is the other bunch who think that sex is the only thing of importance - the commitment to chastity would be horrific to them. They do not understand. I.C. has become a conduit to Church bashing and hatred. Irish men are joining the priesthood alright but they are not going in to seminaries that are feminized and fuzzy. They go where the true faith is taught in all its fullness. The fastest growing side of the Church today is the Traditional and that is in N. America and Australia too. Really appreciated catching up with young American Trad. priest on Sun. He is typical of the faith-strong guys who enter having become lawyers, doctors, engineers, accountants etc. That young guy on Sun. was a teacher and Rodeo rider. Gloria Deo!

• BigDaddy | Aug 06, 2012, 07:10 PM EDT

  Dr. McHugh, you leave nothing left to be said. Well done, m'am.

• BigDaddy | Aug 06, 2012, 07:09 PM EDT

  hermitTalker...You were going for irony, weren't you? You tell Dr. McHugh that she needs to seek professional help while you ramble on in a negative fashion and finally bring Obama and the economy into a discussion of the absence of young men and vocations in Ireland. Curitiba...Dr.McHugh laid out a very persuasive argument for the lack of seminary applicants and yet you come up with the Fox News rebuttal.

• misneac | Aug 06, 2012, 07:09 PM EDT

  Portia and Spartacus North are very sick and bigoted individuals ,out of touch with reality and taking cheap shots .I am bloody sure they would not comment in such terms on the principles of Islam !

• billie061 | Aug 06, 2012, 05:26 PM EDT

  I am not surprised, 2 weeks ago while not a regular attender I did go with 2 friends to mass. They both went to confession, The P.p. a man in his mid-fifties refused 1 absolution for living in sin with her partner of 15 years, the second was refused both absolution and communion for living in sin and also having a six year old child. Both friends were very upset as they never miss mass, hence 2 good-living ladies now deciding not to return to mass or confession. Is this 1912 or 2012 ?????????????

• eiriamach | Aug 06, 2012, 03:28 PM EDT

  For decades in the USA, young adults have been the group most likely to avoid the churches. This is as true of Catholicism as of any other denomination, but Catholicism has also lost heavily from the baby-boomer generation. As a result, RC has lost more members than any other denomination. Baby Boomers left when they despaired of the Vatican or the bishops ever allowing the reforms that energized them in their youth, the reforms decreed by Second Vatican Council. An influx of immigrants keeps RC churches open here, but only as a stop-gap, because the children of the immigrants will leave just as other young people leave. What is astonishing about these sad facts? Only that Fr. Murray, like American priests, does not seem to realize that "the crisis of legitimacy" has brought down his Church. Even that blindness has been studied: in the 2004 Barna survey, 72% of young adult respondents said that church people are "out of touch with reality." If they were in touch, they'd be busy cleaning up and closing up, not trying to recruit priests for empty churches. It's sad that people feel they must leave church to find God, especially when Jesus went to some trouble to organize his followers for keeping and spreading the faith together, not as individuals on their own.

• Seanmor | Aug 06, 2012, 03:25 PM EDT

  Now is a good time for the pope and his cordinals to made celibacy optional. About 90% of normel young men are naturally attracted to women and it is very unreasonable of R.C. Church leaders to expect potential candidates for the priesthood to take vows of permanent chastity.

• Curitiba | Aug 06, 2012, 02:19 PM EDT

  You're all quite right. I would say also that any young man should not consider becoming a surgeon either, since IC ran a story last week about one who is on trial for sex offences against young people in his care. So obviously all people in all institutions are bad and young people should not join an institution of any kind, to be on the safe side. The dole in Ireland is high enough so a young man can sit at home and not put himself at any risk from these sickos who are obviously everywhere.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 06, 2012, 01:17 PM EDT

  A NO SHOW for wannabe priests is the precursor to a NO SHOW in the pews of Roman Catholic "church's" across the globe. A most fitting epitaph I might add for the unholy Roman Catholic “church” before finally consigning her to the graveyard of ignimony and shame, whose reputation for unchecked vice and licentiousness committed under the guise of religion by her 1)ministers of unrighteousness remains unparalleled and whose countless victims offered on the altars of priestly abuse cry to Heaven for justice! 1) God's Word as it is found in II Cor. 11:14-15: "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel: for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light, Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." What a mockery these religious impostors have made of the religion of Christ! What shame and disrepute they have brought upon the cause of Christ! Roman Catholicism is not Christ's Church!

• MarybethC.P. | Aug 06, 2012, 12:07 PM EDT

  Thanks to Dr. McHugh for telling it like it is, and the way it has really been for at least the half-century I've lived in! Just the other day I wrote to a group of friends who hope to change the RC Church from within, "This hierarchy of men will never change until there is one last Catholic in the pew, and they are down to their very last dollar." Who wants to join a completely corrupt organization, let alone make a career out of it! We can all do our own Jesus, and fairly soon, I think we'll have to anyway!

• Nicomax | Aug 06, 2012, 12:01 PM EDT

  Agree that a major schism within the church is appropriate. A breakaway of those progressive-minded Catholics to join similar believers in various Protestant religions would make sense. This would mean that women religious and married couples will be permitted to seek the highest orders. Those not willing to join this new sect can simply stick with the old way of thinking, hope to retain power, and also hope those African and South American congregations can come up with enough coins to keep them in business.

• mayoman | Aug 06, 2012, 11:24 AM EDT

  DrMcHugh: Again you have clearly and concisely cut to the very heart of the matter. Why would any healthy and sane person want to commit his life to an organization that is run by people that are obviously not in their right minds? Schism is in the wind.

• hermitTalker | Aug 06, 2012, 11:19 AM EDT

  Dr McHugh, your constant negative comments on different topics urge me to ask you to consult a psychiatrist to sort out what happened your own head and faith. It is no wonder that men are not jumping up today to enter seminaries, some definitely are; but the pile of camel dung to which they have been exposed for the past two decades, the hostility to the Church and now attacks on the Natural Law are very tall hurdles for them to jump make it more daunting. The recent comment by the running at the mouth Archbishop of Dublin who asked the people -at the annual McGill Summer School recently, for the people to support their priests while be tarred the current seminarians with a comment " They are very conservative and fragile" brush does not help. The usual destructive comments on here of course are par for the course. If you have no faith, lost it or never had it, stick with the physical, such as trying to defend Obama and the Demos' "spin" on women worldwide, and the Labour Party at home who are chomping at the bit for "gender-equality" in sexual unions and life in the womb. ASK how any of them plan to stop the melt-down of the economy. AND listen for the metaphysical in your quiet moments. There is a God in Christ whose Church has survived a heck of a lot worse than this age and is growing in leaps and bounds in places; and will long after the USA and the European partnership has given way to what is next. One presumes if they find water on the Moon a future pope will be baptising there in the future. Look at the reality of drought in the USA, the huge loss of corn and soya beans, the fear of whole cities being abandoned for lack of water with major aquifers being drained dry. I am not a pessimist but I do keep my feet on the ground, and my faith intact and see beyond today's issues, and propaganda that passes for politics and news. " Shalom y'all" as we say in the Florida Synagogues!

• rainbowbrew | Aug 06, 2012, 10:35 AM EDT

  Dr. McHugh I agree, you are spot on and a good set of reasons that called (it was God I am sure) me away from the church. How can I listen to this group of people.

• DrMcHugh | Aug 06, 2012, 10:30 AM EDT

  Fr Murray from Galway added: “...you have to think the hand of God is at work....Certainly, the abuse scandals have had an impact.” As a Catholic physician, I believe it is a healthy sign that young men in 2012 do not want to join an institution: 1) that would give them no voice, 2) that demands an immature type of obedience, which seems more important than morality, 3) that demands mandatory celibacy, 4) that looks on lay people as second class citizens, 5) that refuses to see women as equals and even wants to deny them their reproductive needs, and 6) that has a leader, the Pope, that has not admitted to his central role in allowing the clergy sexual abuse of innocent children to flourish worldwide, from the time that he was head of the office that dealt with clergy sexual abuse cases for 24 years, and then since 2005, as Pope Benedict XVI. Why would any thinking man want to give his life to this institution until it cleans up its act and until it gets rid of mandatory celibacy? Where is Jesus in the lives of the Pope and in many of the rest of the hierarchy? Sincerely, Dr Rosemary Eileen McHugh, Chicago, Illinois, USA

• tundish45 | Aug 06, 2012, 10:05 AM EDT

  Well, they could instantly double the potential pool by recognizing that the other half of humanity exists. But then double of zero is still ....

• Portia777 | Aug 06, 2012, 09:20 AM EDT

  . “The hard thing is getting good people who are thinking about the priesthood but are not ready to make the leap.” Who ever said it was GOOD people who joined the dark priest cult?

• Portia777 | Aug 06, 2012, 09:18 AM EDT

  Ahhhhh, no "God" calling these days? No more voices in the heads of men in dresses? That's a relief.

• NXS | Aug 06, 2012, 08:27 AM EDT

  "hand of God is at work" - hilarious !!!