Five thousand Irish soldiers who deserted the neutral Irish army to help aid the British in the fight against Hitler’s Germany in World War II returned to Ireland to face their lives as outcasts following the war.
For deserting the Irish army to help the British, such soldiers were named on a confidential list nicknamed the “Starvation Orders” at the orders of Eamon de Valera.
BBC News reports on the phenomenon of Irish soldiers being persecuted upon their return to Ireland after fighting in WWII. They spoke with Phil Farrington, now 92 years old and living in Dublin’s dock areas, who helped serve at D-Day as well as the liberation of the German death camp Bergen-Belsen. However, he wears his war medals only in secret. "They would come and get me, yes they would," Farrington asserts about Irish authorities.
Farrington was among 5,000 soldiers who, after deserting Ireland’s neutral army to go serve under the British in the war against fascism, came home to Ireland to find that “they were formally dismissed from the Irish army, stripped of all pay and pension rights, and prevented from finding work by being banned for seven years from any employment paid for by state or government funds.”
Alongside the 5,000 soldiers who deserted the Irish to serve were “tens of thousands” of civilians who signed up to fight under the British.
The soldiers were compiled into a list that has come to be known as the ‘Starvation Orders,’ the title of which would take on a very literal sense for those who were listed along with their families.
"My father was blacklisted and away all the time, picking turnips or whatever work he could get. It's still painful to remember. We were treated as outcasts,” says Paddy Reid, son and nephew of those men who fought the Japanese at the battle of Kohima Ridge. He recalls a childhood with little food, and movement from one slum to another.
________________________
Read More:
U.S. military plane vandalized at Shannon airport
Veteran’s Day ‘Lest we forget’ – The Irish who died in World War One
World War II Spitfire guns 'like-new' after 70 years in an Irish bog
________________________
Cork native John Stout served with the Irish Guards armoured division which raced to Arnhem to capture a key bridge. He also fought in the Battle of the Bulge, ending the war as a commando. He says upon returning home, he too faced the same persecution and criticism as the other Irish soldiers did.
However, Stout also says that at the time, Ireland had only recently broken away from Britain, and resentment was still strong. "They didn't understand why we did what we did. A lot of Irish people wanted Germany to win the war - they were dead up against the British."
Professor of history at Trinity College, Gerald Morgan, says that to prevent civil unrest, Eamon de Valera was forced to draw up the lists preventing the soldiers from attaining work upon return.
The lists, however, are now regarded as widely inaccurate. "It contains the names of men who were to be punished but who'd already been killed in action, but not the names of men who deserted the Irish army to spend their war years as burglars or thieves," said Robert Widders, author of ‘Spitting on a Soldier’s Grace,’ a book about the deserters' treatment.
Recently, members of the Dail have been looking to provide pardons for those who are still alive and on the list. "What happened to them was vindictive and not only a stain on their honor but on the honor of Ireland," TD Gerald Nash said.
71 Comments
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.AndrewSB49 | Jan 09, 2012, 04:11 AM EST
Not mentioned in the report is that the children of these soldiers, who went off to fight the Nazis, were hauled before the Irish courts and, without any legal representation, were consigned to the Irish Industrial Schools system. The children were then marked out for 'special treatment' with the letters - I KID YOU NOT - SS (Saighdiuir Sasanach) attached to their names. We do know from the Ryan Report that children in the Irish Industrial Schools system were physically & sexually tortured and that the Kapos of the Institutions were exceptionally brutal and perverted, but the children of these soldiers must have received an extra dose of sexual and physical brutality on top of all the other obscenities they had to suffer.
seanomelbourne | Jan 05, 2012, 06:10 PM EST
Sirpeter the British had it in their power to prevent starvation. AS the london Times reported with glee at the time "We can now do what we like with the Irish" A comment they lived to regret.A deliberate(famine) starvation of the Irish to weaken their resolve should go down in history as genocide.
sirpeter | Jan 05, 2012, 05:03 PM EST
@Ancavker.Don't get me wrong.The English caused the famine.The Irish poor were forced to live on the only crop that could sustain a family.It was English laissez-faire economics which was much to blame.Private business was free from state intervention,including restrictive regulations, taxes,tariffs and enforced monopolies.Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction,in whole or in part,of an ethnic,racial,religious,or national group.The poor were not taken into consideration in any country in the mid-nineteenth century.It was like the poor didn't matter.Poverty was all over Europe.The English government could have stopped the export of food.But big business and laissez-faire economics was in the way.It was not English policy to starve a million people.That's why it was not genocide.But the Brits did create the conditions which left millions vulnerable to any natural disaster.
ciaradexy | Jan 05, 2012, 12:45 PM EST
Ancavker-People can change their minds. You have no idea what was going on in peoples heads at that time. People did what they had to do to feed and provide for their families. I dont get whats so hard to understand about that. Maybe they found that being in the irish Army was a futile exercise for them and they had other responsibilities. Why have Americans joined the Taliban?
ancavker | Jan 05, 2012, 10:21 AM EST
sirpeter: Regarding the Irish famine, if it was not genocide, what (and I am asking this seriously) do you call it when a government sits back and does almost nothing, while a million or more of its own citizens die of hunger? As Dan O, and others remind us, Ireland at the time was a full fledged member of the U.K. and had MP's in the British parliament.
ancavker | Jan 05, 2012, 10:19 AM EST
Why didn't they just join the British army in the first place??
seanomelbourne | Jan 04, 2012, 05:00 PM EST
Defending desertion is defending the indefensible.
sirpeter | Jan 04, 2012, 04:30 PM EST
Dano.As I said below.Even if 5% of a population feel they are not getting justice.Then it is up to the government of those people to address their issues.In NI they did not until there was bloodshed.It's not exactly rocket science.You know the fact the CofI citizen population dropped dramatically has many reasons.One big reason was the fact Ireland is predominately Catholic.At the end of the day if I was living in a predominately Muslim/Jewish/Hindu country.That would be the religion I would want my kids to have.You want your kids to feel part of the bigger picture.Protestant men married Catholic women.They obviously didn't care to much.As indeed I wouldn't.In general men see the sense in this unless it's NI.I do feel bad when I see an old Protestant church falling into disrepair.Norman castles to Protestant churches are part of my heritage too.Though in Cork most are kept in good condition and are used.I watch out for things like that.I have said a good few times that the Irish famine was NOT genocide by the British.I know this for a fact.Those who use the term are wrong.CofI citizens were NOT cleansed by the Catholic church or the Irish government.I know this for a fact too.The use of the term is wrong also.Both terms are to extreme to be correct.We Irish are not saints when it comes to each other.Irish Protestant/British Protestants are my people if they live on this island.Irish Catholics are also my people.Coercion was the cause in the drop of Protestant numbers.So you would be correct for those Protestants who left because of Catholic coercion Which is good enough for me personally that you made a valid point.To me that counts for a lot here on IC.Anyway I must seek out Georgie Boy and others.It's like teaching remedial class.:))
DanOLoingsigh | Jan 04, 2012, 09:53 AM EST
sirpete - I was thinking more of the campaigns to 'free' the north, not the War of Independence period...and however it was achieved, most of the south has been cleansed of CofI citizens...just look at all the old abandoned churches, some of which have been put to good use, others left to rot..
IrelandNorth | Jan 04, 2012, 08:30 AM EST
Breach of contract is breach of contract. Desertion is desertion, even if for allegedly ulterior motives. Why did they join the Irish 'army' in the first place. Why didn't they apply for discharge by purchase, to exit before their time. The British military would have excuted deserters who left to fight for Irish freedom.
sirpeter | Jan 03, 2012, 11:21 AM EST
Dano.There is nothing wrong with a nation defending itself when faced with an aggressor.In my opinion it sometimes takes bloodshed to get the changes.Lets say 5% of a nation feel they are oppressed and they don't get the necessary changes they "FEEL" they need.Then it is up to the government of that 5% to find a solution otherwise bloodshed may well be used by both sides who "FEEL" their interests are been undermined.Conflict is natural in the relationships of all human beings.Past and present conflicts are judged on the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong;right or good conduct.In other words we measure by the latest morality of the present day.While Ireland as an oppressed nation and as independent nation is not stain free.Ireland's historic conduct is a shining light IN COMPARISON to the historic conduct of most other European nations.Dano.Ethnic cleansing is a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by VIOLENT and TERROR-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.Ethnic cleansing???Hardly.Mild coercion. Yes!!Necessary??To bring unity in the south I think so.
DanOLoingsigh | Jan 01, 2012, 09:14 PM EST
Sirpete – some interesting observations…but you miss a few points yourself. You display a not uncommon Celtic superiority in relation to Europe, sadly misplaced. Plenty of Irishmen, and some women, brought plenty of bloodshed…oh it was all in a good cause, as was the necessary ethnic cleansing of CofI etc…so that’s OK then?
greensod | Dec 31, 2011, 12:12 PM EST
Scotchtommy:Your post appears to be more in line with what really happened. 5000 soldiers deserting in any army at any stage in history is just to big of a pill to swallow.
PhoenixZouave | Dec 31, 2011, 10:16 AM EST
So what's the big deal? When someone becomes a SOUPER, he remains a SOU{ER for life...
sirpeter | Dec 30, 2011, 10:25 PM EST
Dano.I guess he did!! Dev did a lot of looking into his heart *smile.Still he didn't do them to much harm.How many VOLUNTEERS were shot in the British army for not climbing out of the trenches to certain death in WW1?I have studied the man as much as anyone who is interested in Dev.Complex guy.But overall the guy was cleaver and did his best to get the world to recognize Irish sovereignty.He was very well respected in Europe in his day.Dano forget the bullsh*t "axiom ‘circumstances alter cases"Use a simpler meaning like morality or philosophy or religion.The idea is to have a better argument or be better at abusing a person depending on the comment.To be honest Dano I think you miss the point.If there was one thing the majority in Ireland had in common it was the hatred of England.About 100 years ago Cork city was awash with British flags and elsewhere.Dev knew the loyalist protestants had to go.What better way than marrying church and state.It integrated the Protestants if they wanted to marry a Catholic and rightly so.Integration is important.In Rome do as the Romans do.Who cares what David Gray said.Lets be fair about it.Only Ireland in the last 1500 years has given to Europe without bloodshed.A land of learning and giving (still learning lol)The rest of Europe are bloodthirsty savages.The Anglo Saxon German Brits always happy to kill children of any nation.WOW! I was possessed by Dev there.:))
paddyRanger | Dec 30, 2011, 04:35 PM EST
Pretty simple WoundedKnee..........I am addressing the idiot that posts in this forum, who is clearly NOT a famous author, but then deep down, you knew that already, right?!
WoundedKnee | Dec 30, 2011, 04:15 PM EST
PaddyRanger on Dec 30, 2011, 03:21 PM EST " klunk klunk...GeorgeDillon put in his place." ---But which George Dillon are you addressing? The real one or the imposter? And how are we supposed to tell the difference?
paddyRanger | Dec 30, 2011, 03:21 PM EST
klunk klunk...GeorgeDillon put in his place, fails to answer instead deflects with nonsense.
GeorgeDillon | Dec 30, 2011, 02:54 PM EST
"There is a famous author Geroge Dillon". More nonsense from PaddYRanger. I bet a hundred bucks most readers at IrishCentral have never heard of your bogus George Dillon. What did he write? But they have all heard of me. I'm the real George Dillon.
paddyRanger | Dec 30, 2011, 12:21 PM EST
GeorgeDillon, more proof you are a moron. There is a famous author Geroge Dillon who is deceased he can hardly identify himself can he. Are you claiming you have the same "real" name, obviously you are the only idiot on Irish central using that name......
GeorgeDillon | Dec 30, 2011, 12:12 PM EST
paddyRanger: "you clearly are nothing like the real George Dillon." What do other readers think? Am I nothing like the real George Dillon? Will the real George Dillon please identify himself? Have I kidnapped the real George Dillon and am now using his Irish Central account?
paddyRanger | Dec 30, 2011, 11:00 AM EST
GeorgeDillon “ Paddyranger (what a ridiculous ID)--I suspect you're the stupidest person to read my posts in a long time, so I won't be too bothered by your insults. You obviously can't deal with the idea of an independent Irish nation and state. That means you're a piece of colonialist/imperialist vermin, so I won't worry too much about your imbecilities.”……………….. You GeorgeDillon are clearly the imbecile if you can’t figure out what my ID really means, as opposed to your ridiculous id as you clearly are nothing like the real George Dillon. What makes you assume things I wonder, other than being a total moron, I have no problem with an Independent Irish Nation, in fact thanks to those who defeated NAZI Germany you still have an idependent nation, instead of the Irish Army people who sat on their hole back in Ireland doing NOTHING, others went out and defended the true interests of free nations everywhere. Thank you to the “5000” who risked their lives instead of being wasters back in Ireland, and the other 150,000 odd Irishmen who also served.
ballyhip | Dec 30, 2011, 10:09 AM EST
wizardofoz: Yes, there is a monument to St. Patrick's Brigade by the Mexican government. They were Irish/Americans and recent immigrants who were trained artillery men. The reasons for there desertion are complicated but many were aware of the Know Nothing campaign agaisnt Catholics which carried over into the US Army. They were executed when captured. Many historians would argue that the war agaisnt Mexico was as "unjust" a war as we have ever fought and was unsupportable to many including a young Congressman from Illinois, Abraham Lincoln.
DanOLoingsigh | Dec 30, 2011, 09:27 AM EST
Seanomelbourne – once again you miss the point by a country mile. The point being that the US carried out the death sentence for desertion only once in 2 WORLD WARS. Have you never heard of the axiom ‘circumstances alter cases’? Your attitude echoes De Valera’s, as stated by the US representative to Dublin, David Gray, when he complained that ‘this running a government on hatred for another country is a very dangerous thing’. Only someone with this level of hatred, and refusal to see the ‘Big Picture’ of global war, can defend such a policy...
gobdawpaddy | Dec 30, 2011, 07:50 AM EST
Peterson, 6.52pm post. Yes Ireland would be a different place if Germany had invaded Ireland..... Goebels, fire up se ovens. Seez pepil are too stupid to b part of master race.
seanomelbourne | Dec 30, 2011, 03:39 AM EST
desertion in the line of duty is desertion, it matters not that you wish to condone it because of your perception of a "global war" changes the severity of the crime committed.Sirpeter is correct they deserted in Irelands hour of need and were treated very leniently.Dan seems to condone any anti Irish action on any blog on IC. I called him out sometime ago on where he is actually from and he refused to give an answer.,What oaths did Dev make and break?? If you are refering to oaths made to the crown good on him.
Scotchtommy | Dec 30, 2011, 03:31 AM EST
The vast majority did NOT desert.Do you think the Irish Army was so dumb as not to maintain security and dsicipline and that any soldier could just walk away from his unit?Most of them ,officers and other ranks resigned and went to the UK to enlist in the British Army.For a variety of reasons- some idealissts who hated Nazism.Some wanting adventure.Many were careerists and to the British Army (frantically trying to mould millions of conscripts into a modern army)these trained professional soldiers were worth their weight in gold.An Irish corporal(probably with 10 years service in the Irish Army and no hope of promotion) would be a sergeant major in a month.The Irish Army had 30 year old 1st Lts.Could you imagine what the British would do with him.There are stories (probably anecdotal)of Irish 1st Lts within a short time ending up as British batallion commanders.Large numbers stayed on in the UK after the war -some in the forces due to better prospects -most in civilian life where they made terrifc contributions to britain's economic recovery.
DanOLoingsigh | Dec 30, 2011, 02:19 AM EST
sirpeter - Maybe Dev remembered his own cavalier attitude to taking and breaking oaths?
DanOLoingsigh | Dec 30, 2011, 02:18 AM EST
seanomelbourne - Private Eddie D. Slovik, 36896415, of Company G, 109th Infantry Regiment, US 28th Infantry Division, was the only American since the Civil War to be shot for desertion. The execution took place in the town of St. Marie-Aux-Mines, France. Slovik was the son of poor Polish immigrants. And this was in the context of a nation fighting a global war...
mikoewozz | Dec 29, 2011, 10:54 PM EST
Another restaurant cliaimed to use fresh mozz arella cheese,where it's dishes were actually made with economy cheddar.the "fresh pasta"advertieshed on another meau tumed out to be frozen.--Agedate. ℃⊙M--a nice and free place for younger women and older men,or older women and younger men,to interact with each other.
sirpeter | Dec 29, 2011, 10:42 PM EST
Those Irish soldiers took an oath to defend Ireland.They deserted.It matters not what else they did.They should have been jailed if they returned.Here they are moaning that they were treated as outcasts.The fact they were not jailed after the war shows up all the anti-Dev crap on here.Ireland the only country in the world not to jail deserters during war time.I wouldn't condone shooting them as their desertion didn't do to much harm.They should have been exiled at the very least.
Penny55 | Dec 29, 2011, 09:56 PM EST
One alone, lonely for two. True happiness cannot be found even with a group of people having parties. But, happiness is not so faraway, and love is not so out of reach either, because the site Millionairesocial.com it is the terminal for your single life and the station of your love. Join us, start dating. What else are you waiting for ?
Penny55 | Dec 29, 2011, 09:54 PM EST
Are you still be lonely? Do you want someone to companion with you. My- friends told me a nice place ------ 'Millionairesocial.C-O-M There are so many beautiful /successful people!,young girls / rich men. to- int'eract with each other., "everything to everyone"dating \.marry .even, a nice club for y'ounger women and old'er men, or older women and y'ounger men, and Age is no problem. everything is possible!You do not have to be rich or famous
wizardofoz | Dec 29, 2011, 08:10 PM EST
Listen to all you auld hypocrites banging on about “deserters” from the Irish army! What does it matter? A much greater ‘Irish solders’ crime exists and yet you lot appear ignorant of that fact. Allow me. In Plaza San Jacinto in San Angel, a suburb of Mexico City, there stands a memorial, dedicated to the San Patricios or San Patrick’s Battalion, it honours a group of mainly Irish American soldiers (traitors) who changed sides and fought for Mexico in the US-Mexican War (1846-1847). There traitorous behaviour cost many American lives.
barneyjo | Dec 29, 2011, 07:18 PM EST
This articles masks an even greater "Inconvenient Truth" for many "Armchair" Republicans who post their own narrow version of the truth on IC and (I am sure) on other sites. The fact that close on 150,000 Irish Citizens enlisted in the British Armed Forces between 1939-45 is even more significant. I am sure many did so from an ideological point of view. I am also sure that many did so for purely economic reasons, to avoid the ravages of unemployment and poverty so rampant in Ireland in that period. Several of my Father's family were employed by the Great Northern Railway in Northern Ireland during the war. They worked in ticket offices at stations in Garrison towns in and around Belfast. As part of their they had to write travel warrants for British Forces who went on leave to their homes in ROI. At that time the GNR Southern Terminus was in Dublin, but my uncles recounted that they issued thousands of travel warrants to men going to Cork, Kerry, Galway, and many of the most southerly and westerly counties of the Island of Ireland. 5000 is only one small part of a larger story of thousands of Irishmen fighting for Britain, that many would prefer to forget. Consider this though, if they hadnt done so, where would the military expertise that underpinned several IRA campaigns in the 20th century have been otherwise gleaned?
pilib04 | Dec 29, 2011, 07:07 PM EST
I would agree that there were Irish men who fought Hitler and Franco. Certainly the Connolly Column of the 15th International Brigade was full of them! (Apologies for those familiar with the early uncorrected version Christy Moore Song Viva La Quinta Brigada (later renamed Viva La Quince Brigada). Christy had it right, the 15th Brigade of the Spanish Republican Army was the 5th International Brigade. But my history lesson digresses. My point instead is that many who fought on the side of the Brits were not necessarily anti-Fascists or anti-Nazi. I can well understand feeling in Ireland during Churchill's rule (1940-45). Certainly the Irish suffered at Churchill's hand when he directed the Tans. And did not Hitler style his Brownshirts on the Black and Tans? One can be anti-fascist and oppose British Imperialism.
seanomelbourne | Dec 29, 2011, 06:27 PM EST
Ask the british or American high command what was there penalty for desertion during wartime and the answer you would recieve is Death. They deserted their post during an emergency period in Ireland. A deserter is a deserter is a deserter.I doubt the 5000 figure and I am sure in most cases their reason for desertion was more dosh,nothing altruistic about that. One could almost call them mercenaries.
audreybolton | Dec 29, 2011, 06:23 PM EST
I certainly never heard this. My greatgrandfather Liam who fought in World War One and my grandfather Michael who fought in World War 2 won seven medals between them and openly displayed them when they returned to work as School Teachers never regretted their decisions. Michael was murdered by the IRA in 1922 but we are still proud of them. There are 3 members of my family in Irish Armed Forces and don't regret our decision to join. Niall, all Irish men and women who fought for freedom of Ireland, against Hitler and on behalf of the United Nations are honoured in the Memorial Gardens at Islandbridge, Dublin and we all do and did what is important for human freedom at the time. The past is however the past and must be let go if we are all to move on. Some people of Irish descent seem unble to do this.
greensod | Dec 29, 2011, 06:23 PM EST
Shedding the uniform for a country that you have sworn to defend, for the uniform of another country is not an option,regardless how noble the cause may be.Under the code of UCMJ the punishment in war time is death by firing squad.I suppose you could argue Ireland was not involved in the war. Wonder how the legalese would look at it?
peterson | Dec 29, 2011, 05:52 PM EST
There are many of us who would consider these brave men as heroes. If Germany had invaded Ireland, - Ireland would never have been the same.
greensod | Dec 29, 2011, 05:49 PM EST
This casts a long and dark shadow.What is the source supporting this?Can it be verified,if so, it is very important that it be done.I do not think that this should be left to opinions posted here.Every person is entitled to their own opinion,they are not entitled to there own facts.I will look forward to reading documented material that can be verified, and where it can be obtained.This dark cloud needs to have some light pointed at it so it is clear and transparent.We are talking about the questionable integrity of 5000 Irishmen.
Collette2 | Dec 29, 2011, 05:43 PM EST
It would be in the library records. Maybe we could have a Jewish contribution, they would know. Pass it around. It is believable, but better to be clear.
ancavker | Dec 29, 2011, 04:03 PM EST
George: Even at 40,000 with 5,000 deserters, that would be over 10% who deserted, still seems very high. But again, they deserted, and than came home and expected to be welcomed with open arms??? Only the Irish!!!
GeorgeDillon | Dec 29, 2011, 03:47 PM EST
ancavker: You are right that the peacetime establishment of the Irish Army tends to be at 10k or less, but during World War II there was, for obvious reasons, a big expansion. I would think the Irish Army numbered about 40,000 regulars during WW2, with I don't know how many more thousands of reserves. There was no air force or navy worth mentioning. But I concur with you that the figure of 5000 deserters is highly inflated.
Rebelforce | Dec 29, 2011, 03:37 PM EST
No doubt many Irishmen who signed up to fight with England against the Germans did so out of economic necessity, coupled with that well-known Irish love for adventure and a good fight. But let's be clear on this issue: In no way can the bravery, courage and sacrifice of those Irish who fought to free their own country from British rule, tyranny and oppression be equated with those Irish who fought with the army of Ireland's historic enemy. Both deserve to be remembered, but the Irish Freedom Fighter naturally deserves a place of higher honor and respect in Ireland than does the Irish mercenary.
ancavker | Dec 29, 2011, 03:16 PM EST
Niall 5000 sounds like an incredibly high number, what was the total size of the Irish army at the time? From my understanding the Irish Defense Forces, never numbered more than 10,000 active service members. Are we to assume that perhaps more than half deserted at the time??
ancavker | Dec 29, 2011, 03:13 PM EST
Seamus: Why do we honor men who deserted form their own army? I am not criticizing their decision to fight against the Germans in the British army, but they deserted from their own army. That is the problem I have with this story. At what point does one just throw up their hands and say forget about it. Pardons for army deserters, memorials to the RIC in Glasnevin. Why is Ireland the only country that has to apologize for fighting for its independence? Why is a pardon necessary for men who deserted from their own army? No wonder the Irish in Ireland are such an odd bunch. They don't even have pride in their own independence, ashamed of the founding Fathers if their independent state, hate and ridicule for the language, music etc. What a sorry pathetic excuse for an independent country.
carrickcourt | Dec 29, 2011, 02:58 PM EST
On my parents first visit to Ireland in the 1980's they met, on a train on their way to Dublin, an Irishman who claimed to have fought with the German Army in Russia during World War II. This person said he had been in the IRA before enlisting in the German Army. Apparently this fellow thought the Germans were on the 'good' side because they were fighting the English.
GeorgeDillon | Dec 29, 2011, 02:55 PM EST
"The story is undoubtedly true". Which part of it is true, O'Dowd? That some Irish soldiers betrayed their word and oath and skulked off in the night to desert? Sure, that's true. Are you really suggesting that someone has denied it? Who? But that there were 5000 of them? That's obviously inflated and exaggerated.
Niall O'Dowd | Dec 29, 2011, 02:46 PM EST
The story is undoubtedly true and a product of excellent BBC research
GeorgeDillon | Dec 29, 2011, 02:44 PM EST
Good post, ancavker. Your first point is crucial, and it's one I made in my earlier post. These guys broke their oath to the Irish state and army. They didn't just leave jobs in Guinnesses, the Post Office or wherever in Ireland--they deserted their posts in the Irish Army. They skulked off under cover of darkness, withouit permission or explanation, and left a gap in their units that some other man had to fill. Such gaps could have been crucial had the Germans or the British invaded, as seemed very possible around 1940/1. Any normal nation would concur that deserters in wartime deserve no honors, at best they merit the charity of oblivion. Only the crazy Irish differ. I am growing ever more convinced that the Irish do not deserve an independent statelet of their own. It is a charade and a sham. All those who post here asking for sympathy for these traitors (that's what wartime deserters are) show that they don't really think Ireland should be an independent country, with its own foreign policy, its own army etc. They're goons who are drowned in neo-colonialism and imperialist kissassing.
SeamusMartin | Dec 29, 2011, 02:41 PM EST
What's done is done. A pardon is in order if what's written is true. The rest of you "historians" ought to get over you petty insipid differences!
GeorgeDillon | Dec 29, 2011, 02:35 PM EST
Paddyranger (what a ridiculous ID)--I suspect you're the stupidest person to read my posts in a long time, so I won't be too bothered by your insults. You obviously can't deal with the idea of an independent Irish nation and state. That means you're a piece of colonialist/imperialist vermin, so I won't worry too much about your imbecilities.
ancavker | Dec 29, 2011, 01:11 PM EST
Just some points here boys and girls. 1. Whether the story is true or not, they were deserters from the Irish Army, not volunteers who joined up. Big difference. 2. De Valera did much to help the allied war effort, that has been pr oven time and time again, and even Churchill acknowledged it in the 1950's. Also Churchill and De Valera actually grew to like each other as they got older. 3. A united Ireland was never on offer by Churchill, another myth by the revisionists, he only promised De Valera that he would encourage the unionists to enter into a united Ireland, but would not force them, and of course AFTER the war. 4. De Valera was not half Cuban or Spanish, but was rather fathered by a local man in the Clare area where he was raised. The half Spanish facade was created by De Valera to hide his illegitimacy. 5. He was only a yank by virtue of being born in the U.S., and returned to Ireland when he was TWO YEARS OLD. Amazing to me how any one could be so ignorant to call him a Yank. 6. De Valera according to many sources did towards the end of his life acknowledge that Collins would be judged the greater man. 7. Why are the rules always different when it comes to Ireland and the Irish. During WW II, the Swiss stayed neutral, and the Swedes, and the Finns openly collaborated with the Nazi's, yet the Irish (many times by their own people) are ostracized for staying neutral. The Irish (in Ireland) are indeed an odd bunch.
slainte9 | Dec 29, 2011, 12:27 PM EST
The RAF's number two ace in WWII was Brendan Finucane, whose father served with the Irish Volunteers under DeValera in 1916. Finucane played a significant role in saving the British during the Battle of Britain. "A rose, Spitfire Paddy, grown by Seán McCann was named in Finucane's memory. In November 2004, the rose was planted in the memorial garden in Baldonnel Aerodrome in Dublin (home of the Irish Air Corps) beside the garrison church." It is highly doubtful that DeValera ever "blacklisted" the highly decorated Finucane, who was killed in combat on 7/15/42, having singlehandedly downed 26 nazis, in addition to six shared kills and eight probables. He flew a Spitfire emblazoned with Shamrocks.
paddyRanger | Dec 29, 2011, 12:11 PM EST
"They reneged on their oath to defend Ireland and its democratically elected government in a time of great peril"................most stupid statement I have read in a long time, by defeating NAZI germany they DID DEFEND Ireland,
CitizenWhy | Dec 29, 2011, 11:56 AM EST
Devalera was not worthy of leading a new nation. What a sad beginning for Ireland. His treatment of Collins before and after the assassination is disgraceful. Perhaps the research that suggests deValera lied about his origins is true, that the Archdiocese of New York changed its records to accommodate his myth about himself.
CitizenWhy | Dec 29, 2011, 11:51 AM EST
Disgraceful. My personal apologies to these brave people.
LoyalCitizen | Dec 29, 2011, 11:28 AM EST
Eamon De Valera was yank only.
oldboreen | Dec 29, 2011, 11:19 AM EST
This story is nonsense!I'm 75 years old and Irish.If it were true, I would have heard about it long before now! Undoubtedly there were Irishmen who deserted from the then Irish Army, but 5,000? Where did that figure come from? Irish neutrality in world war two, was to say the least, ambiguous.de Valera ordered Dublin's Fire appliances into the north following the bombing of Belfast, Fact. When Hitler committed suicide in the Berlin bunker and Allied victory was certain, he went out of his way to personally sign a book of condolence at the German Embassy in Dublin-having known for some time of Nazi atrocities all over occupied Europe-the horrors uncovered in the first of the liberated concentration camps, were already known in Dublin by that time-Fact!. British Jews in 1939 and earlier, knowing that German Jews, were being deported to camps,hastily organized the 'Kindertransport'mission for several hundred Jewish children, thereby ensuring their survival in the UK. de Valera forbade the entry of some two hundred of these kids into Ireland, knowing that Irish Jews and non-Jewish Irish families had offered to take them in! Fact!. Perhaps Kerry O'Shea and Irish Central would care to dispute these documented facts. Finally-just a thought-would a victorious Nazi Germany really have tolerated a neutral Ireland? Might it have become at best like Vichy France? The second world war which devastated Europe, claiming the lives of some 50 million, was officially known in Ireland as 'The Emergency'-surely the most inventive euphemism of all time!!
WoundedKnee | Dec 29, 2011, 10:32 AM EST
What I don 't understand is why these men returned to Ireland after the War? Hadn't they declared loyalty to England and fought in the British Armed Forces? So it was up to England--not Ireland--to give them jobs, welfare etc.
OBPiper | Dec 29, 2011, 10:21 AM EST
With the stupidity displayed by Ireland and its fascist-coddling half-cuban deValera, statehood should have been placed on parole. Dillon, please meditate on "Five thousand Irish soldiers who deserted the neutral Irish army to help aid the British in the fight against Hitler’s Germany in World War II" as you certainly show no understanding of that yet.
Rebelforce | Dec 29, 2011, 10:20 AM EST
Why wouldn't a brave Irishman want to go off to fight to get the Germans out of Poland? Ofcourse, if that same Irishman wanted to fight to get the British out of Ireland, he'd probably be labeled a "terrorist". Go figure.
MichaelMcGrath | Dec 29, 2011, 10:17 AM EST
This is outrageous, no Irish soldier in the British Army ever had to hide their medals here in Ireland, there were no such "starvation orders" from Eamon DeValera either. Ireland was benevolently neutral towards the UK and the USA in the War, this is just more Leftist nonsense from Irish Central and Niall O'Dowd in New York. The Irish government of the time actually spirited RAF pilots shot down over Ireland in dogfights back to the UK over the Irish land border with the UK in the dead of night. Ireland helped the allies every way it could but we were not going to commit our small country and people to the horrors of war just because the British saw fit to declare war in the first place without consulting us. You consult potential allies before you declare war, simple! But you have to listen to thunder...
GeorgeDillon | Dec 29, 2011, 10:14 AM EST
miamicanes: "Do you really think Ireland could have withstood an invasion from Germany?" Did you just read someone else's post? I never speculated about what you ask.
miamicanes | Dec 29, 2011, 09:54 AM EST
For George Dillon Do you really think Ireland could have withstood an invasion from Germany? I would guess so with a little help from the Irish in America.
Springfield9 | Dec 29, 2011, 09:50 AM EST
A Pardon is the right thing to do. However, it should be framed in a manner that says they wanted to do the right thing but went about it the wrong way.
GeorgeDillon | Dec 29, 2011, 09:41 AM EST
"A stain on their honor" says this Irish TD Nash. What honor do deserters have? Remember, this is not about men who left civilian life in Ireland in order to enlist in British forces. Their actions, though perhaps questionable, were within acceptable limits of free will. What Nash and other crazies are talking about are SOLDIERS in the Irish Army who DESERTED. These guys were damn lucky they weren't shot when they returned to Ireland (How come they didn't stay in England?).They reneged on their oath to defend Ireland and its democratically elected government in a time of great peril, when there was every chance that Ireland would be invaded by Germany or Britain. Thankfully, scores of thousands of Irish men and women did not follow the renegades' path. Indeed an elderly relative of mine, a veteran of the Free State Army of the time, a Republican who swallowed his dislike of the Free Staters in order to defend his country, told me once that their orders were to resist all invaders, regardless of origin. They had battle plans for a British invasion just as they had plans for a German invasion. What would these Irish traitors beloved by Nash have done if, as members of the British Army, they had been ordered to invade Ireland, or size control of its ports? Desert again? Or turn their guns on Irishmen loyal to their country? I am not at all surprised that a member of the corrupt Irish parliament defends treason and betrayal--it's in their genes.
citizen69 | Dec 29, 2011, 09:40 AM EST
It's a sad story. Many brave Irishmen joined the allies to help defeat the Nazis. They deserved better.
hollabackgurl | Dec 29, 2011, 09:21 AM EST
De Valera and his too subservient attitude to the Catholic Church retarded the development of the Republic as a functioning democracy. He was a disaster for the nation that masqueraded as its savior.
JHShanahan | Dec 29, 2011, 07:53 AM EST
Eamon de Valera, were he alive today, would have much to answer for. Historical records show a coziness with the Third Reich that was incomprehensible. The revelations of the "Starvation List" and its impact on WWII veterans in Ireland are thoroughly disgusting. Ger Nash (my local TD) is dead right: apologies, pardons and reparations are certainly in order.