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Vatican queried by Irish group ‘Count Me Out’ on laws of leaving church

Paul Dunbar seeks Vatican clarification on new rulings

KERRY O'SHEA,

IrishCentral Staff Writer

Published Thursday, February 16, 2012, 8:28 AM

Updated Thursday, February 16, 2012, 10:19 AM

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The Vatican, Rome

Paul Dunbar, co-founder of CountMeOut.ie, wrote to Archbishop Francesco Coccopalmerio, president of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts at the Vatican, yesterday, with inquiries regarding new Vatican rulings that may alter the process of formally removing oneself from the Church.

The Irish Times reports that CountMeOut.ie, an Irish website that assisted people who wanted to formally disassociate themselves with the Church, was suspended in 2010 following new canon law issued by the Vatican.

Count Me Out co-founder Paul Dunbar is seeking clarification on the new Vatican canon laws which came into effect in 2010 with the Apostolic letter Omnium in Mentem.

Dunbar wrote that canon lawyers explained to him that through Omnium in Mentem, formal defections were not removed from practice. Rather, Dunbar was told that the change meant that marriage was not invalidated by a formal act of defection.

However, in 2010, the Dublin archdiocese stopped accepting formal defections, but stated that people could continue to defect informally if they wish.
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Dunbar and Count Me Out were told that Catholics should still be able to formally leave the church through either a declaration of defection, which is a letter to the local bishop, or through an act of apostasy, which is a rejection of belief.

The Irish Times reports the three main posits that were posed to Archbishop Coccopalmerio by Dunbar and his group: “Is it possible for members of the church to formally cease their membership and if so how? Does Omnium in Mentem completely remove the possibility of defecting from the church? Is it possible for people to be excommunicated by signing an act of apostasy and how would this be recorded in law?”

Dunbar is looking for explicit clarification in hopes of reviving the CountMeOut.ie website and service, which provided 12,000 defection forms while it was live for a year and a half. The service was initiated in 2009, following the Ryan report of sexual abuse against children in institutional care.

There are “a significant number of people in Ireland who are interested in ceasing their membership”, wrote Dunbar.

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ciaradexy | Feb 22, 2012, 12:26 PM EST

Jacers, do you want me to forward the letter to you which stated that I would be welcome back at any stage? If you knew anything about Ireland then you would realise that there has been a massive call for the church to handover control of some schools as there is not enough choice here. Most people have no other choice but to send their kids to catholic schools. ''Since you have defected from the Church you no longer have a RIGHT to enter a Catholic Church although there’s nothing to stop you from doing so. But next time you do, I suggest you look to the Tabernacle and say to yourself... “This is what I defected from... the eternal presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist in that Tabernacle there” and then ask yourself “What am I doing here, if I’ve defected from this?” '' I defected from a organisation based on a fairy tale. An organisation that rapes children, steals and sells babies and where its leaders or preachers live in complete juxtapostion to the way their ''god'' lived! Jesus had no property and was poor. The church has billions and its priests live in mansions! I have visited the Vatican and its wealth is despicable! The church has the power to end hunger in the world but it hogs its wealth and tells its followers to do as I say and not as I do. Hypocrites the lot of them! A Church is a building and in my area, my family contributed to the building of many over the years so Im entitled to walk into any catholic church. Im not muslim, buddhist, jewish or protestant either but Ive been allowed visit their places of worship so why cant i walk into a church? I will never rejoin an organisation that forced my birth mother into hiding and instilled such shame in her family that she was forced to give up her baby. The same organisation that raped family members in the 50s and 60s. Its rotten to the core.

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jacersagain | Feb 18, 2012, 11:34 AM EST

BTW Ciara -The Archbishop could not have told you that you can be baptised again if you change your mind and are welcomed back, so please, once again I beg you to stop posting lies. Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders are the only three Sacraments that anyone can receive only once in their whole lifetime because they leave an indelible mark on the soul of the person receiving them. You can re-affirm your belief in the Catholic Church at any time and go through the short process of reconciliation with Christ and His Church; good advice on returning to the Church is given in Catholic Answers which you can google for online. I sincerely hope you do return and there will be a great welcome for you, as Jesus showed us through the parable of the prodigal returning son "Now we must celebrate and rejoice, because your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found." (Luke 15:32)

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jacersagain | Feb 18, 2012, 11:30 AM EST

(...more) Since you have defected from the Church you no longer have a RIGHT to enter a Catholic Church although there’s nothing to stop you from doing so. But next time you do, I suggest you look to the Tabernacle and say to yourself... “This is what I defected from... the eternal presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist in that Tabernacle there” and then ask yourself “What am I doing here, if I’ve defected from this?” Then show the courage of your convictions by walking straight out of the church again and stop being part of something you don’t believe in. Furthermore, despite what you think since your defection, you no longer have a RIGHT to be a godmother to your nephew or any other child; with your defection also defected from that role. A Godmother’s (and Godfather’s) role in the Catholic Church is to sponsor and nurture the growing child’s Catholic faith in God our Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit, in his Holy Mother Mary and in all the angels and saints. Godmothers are not there for birthdays. You defected by your own free choice and are therefore no longer qualified to be a god-mother. In continuing to maintain that you are, or that you think you have a RIGHT to enter a Catholic Church, or that you can be buried in the same Catholic graveyard as your parents/grandparents/greatgrandparents, you demonstrate publicly here on ICentral that you are a fraud.

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jacersagain | Feb 18, 2012, 11:24 AM EST

@Ciaradexy – yes, there has been a fall-off in numbers attending Church services in Ireland (even I don’t go to Mass every week) but the vast majority have not defected. Many have lapsed in their practice and the good Archbishop of Dublin is right to call on those who are persistently lapsed to get out altogether (he's only following the dvice of St. Paul regarding those who reject Christ's message and messengers - 'Shake the dirt off our sandals and leave those who will not listen'). However, the vast majority of Irish Catholics, practising or not, still send their children to Catholic schools, still see the children receive their First Holy Communion and Confirmation and still bury their dead in the Catholic rite and in Catholic graveyards. In other words, they remain Catholics in faith if not in deeds and have certainly not defected as you falsely allege. (More...)

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jacersagain | Feb 18, 2012, 10:07 AM EST

@ Collette, you show your ignorance of matters by using the wrong word 'maize'. The Church strictly adheres to Canon Law, even if some of its members don't. All countries in the world have laws but not everyone adheres to them (tax avoiders, thieves, killers etc). Some members of the Church don't abide by Canon Law either but the vast majority do. Piss off with your tar-brushing of the majority of good law-abiding members.

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Collette2 | Feb 17, 2012, 04:33 AM EST

jaceragain, don't bother getting yourself caught up in the maize of canon law, it's not worth the paper it's written on, even the church doesn't adhere to it, haven't you noticed?

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ciaradexy | Feb 16, 2012, 06:31 PM EST

Knock the last 0 off that 12,5000 I typed there!

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ciaradexy | Feb 16, 2012, 06:21 PM EST

Infact I have just read another article from July 2011 that reckons 25% of irish catholics attend mass!

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ciaradexy | Feb 16, 2012, 06:19 PM EST

40% of the Irish population are 'practicing catholics' and I got that figure from a catholic website. So 12,5000 people defected from the Church in 18 months? Thats a heck of a lot of people. Imagine what that number would be if the church hadnt got a shock when they realised how many were defecting and then changed the laws! Non Catholics can attend services as guests of catholics. Are you telling me I cant go to my sisters wedding because I am not catholic? I have been to several funerals and my nephews communion. They dont ask you your religion on the way in the church door.I have a cert from Dermot martin which indicates I am no longer member of the catholic church or faith. I am my nephews 'god' mother and I can still attend his confirmation as his sponsor. I have asked a local priest about this. Babies are baptised and so do not have the choice as to whether or not they want to be catholics or if they believe therefore they are indocrinated into a faith under false pretences. I was also told by Dermot Martin that i would be welcomed back into the church at anytime and I can be baptised.

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CelticQueenUSA | Feb 16, 2012, 06:17 PM EST

As far as I know you do not need any formal permission to leave the Catholic Church. I never sent a letter to Rome or any archbishop to leave. I just ceased to attend. I am not declaring undelief either, I believe that God and his Son would be most annoyed with the practices of this institution at present. I don't care what your practice is, it is the faith in God that matters. Happy Episcopalian now and no more nonsense over rule and be ruled by a state that cannot operate with integrity.

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jacersagain | Feb 16, 2012, 06:04 PM EST

(... cont’d) >>> Personally, even as a Catholic, I have difficulty with the notion and legality, spiritual or material, of private or public defection and automatic excommunication. When a person has been baptised, the Church holds that an indelible, unbreakable bond has been created between that person and Christ, guaranteeing Divine protection. This means “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic”. Therefore, imho, defection can never exist or happen even if one wishes to defect, and if one were to change one’s mind later in life and wish to cancel ‘defection’, that can’t happen either since it didn’t exist in the first place. Furthermore, no one can be baptised a second time, in any Christian Church as a way to cancel defection. That is my humble thinking; I stand to be corrected or further enlightened by anyone better “in the know” on Canon Law.

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jacersagain | Feb 16, 2012, 06:00 PM EST

@ Nicomax – private defection is permissible by the Catholic Church. By doing so, Canon Law invokes an automatic spiritual penalty of excommunication. One is therefore no longer entitled to attend Catholic Church Services such as first communions, confirmations, marriages and funerals, even as a guest of friends, nor participate any further in sacraments, nor be married in Church to a non-defected Catholic, have a Catholic Funeral or be buried in a Catholic-consecrated graveyard. These are brought about by the defecting person’s own decision. (Cont’d...)

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jacersagain | Feb 16, 2012, 05:57 PM EST

ciaradexy writes at 1.18pm EDT - “This website was closed down and the service withdrawn due to the unprecedented demand for this service. There are thousands of people in Ireland who used it and there are thousands more who want to leave.” No, ciara, you’re totally wrong, so pls don’t post lies. First off: CountMeOut itself says “We feel that, in the light of the changes (brought about by "Omnium in Mentem") and the uncertainty it has provoked, it would be wrong (of us) to continue offering the defection documentation until the situation has been clarified”. Secondly, there are 12,000 people who completed the defection documentation offered by CountMeOut. Officially, in 2009, just over 200 people and in 2010, just over 300 formally defected. That makes a total of 12,500 who want out of the Catholic Church out of 3.25 million, or 0.004% of Catholics in Ireland. Thirdly, CountMeOut still exists; it is not in need of “reinstatement”.

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jacersagain | Feb 16, 2012, 05:54 PM EST

Although Omnium in Mentum no longer allows official defection, private defection is officially permissible. The Dublin Archdiocese works with CountMeOut by maintaining contact on defections. It facilitates those who apply in writing to be allowed to leave the Church and maintains a register of such people but cannot annotate baptismal records at present (all due to a need for clarification on Omnium in Mentem). Like me, millions of Irish Catholics are furious with our Church for its handling of recent events but we do not wish to defect from Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, which is what public and private defectors do, and we will continue to maintain our faith and trust in the Holy Spirit’s chosen path for His Church. He can handle Satan’s attempts to invade it, gathering ‘defectors’ along the way, better than we mere mortals of the Faithful.

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ciaradexy | Feb 16, 2012, 05:27 PM EST

Nico, the catholic church is like the hotel California. You can check out anytime you like but you can never leave. Unless Count Me Out is reinstated and the church stop making up new laws to cover themselves.

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