Irish American homicide detective, Edward Foy, has witnessed Irish police being intimidated on the street by intoxicated offenders. He believes the time has come for Irish police to carry guns.
The 39-year U.S. law enforcement veteran explained what he had witnessed on St. Patrick's Day in Dublin this year, in an column on Journal.ie. While heading back to his hotel off Grafton Street he and his colleague, who were also on vacation, spotted a group of police who were being surrounded by "intoxicated youthful offenders".
Foy said "I watched, thinking “I hope these thugs are not armed with a gun or edged weapon.” Because when you go up against multiple individuals who are under the influence, it’s dangerous. And the only weapon they have is a nightstick. In my opinion, arming these officers with nothing but a baton in these conditions is simply reckless."
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After observing the situation for a number of minutes Foy and his buddies stepped in. He said "The officers knew we were cops – and we just basically stood around the two of them. It could have been really ugly; but there were four of us, and we’re above average size, and we had their back. So when the crowd was dispersed they thanked us and we on about our business, they went about theirs."
The homicide detective said the difference between being armed with a nightstick or a gun is "an unwritten respect".
He said "If I’m going into a confrontation with seven, eight individuals, and I’m armed, they know it. So they’re going to take a second thought about getting into a confrontation. But these thugs, they knew that the maximum protection of these two garda officers was an expandable baton. If I’m a thug in that situation, I’ve got to think I like my odds. But if I have to deal with an officer who’s got a firearm, I’m going to think twice."
Foy calls to mind a horrific recent incident which could have ended differently had the police officer been carrying a gun. He said "Recently there was a case of a garda who was attending a domestic disturbance, and he had boiling oil thrown in his face. Now when I look at that, I think: Would that incident have brought about the use of a firearm? Probably not. But would that person have thrown the grease knowing that the officer was armed? That’s the question."
He says the fact that Irish police are going on their daily beat with limited resources is "mind boggling" to him and his colleagues. He explained "I follow the Irish media, and in my estimation there has been a serious escalation in gun crime since six or seven years ago. It’s reckless to have unarmed officers dealing with that kind of situation."
He continued I really feel sorry for the Irish officers, in a way. Because they don’t have that protection. I know that a lot of the higher level guys dealing with organized crime are armed. But I also know that the street-level people are your first line of defense. When you see the stories about these guys being injured, or dying – it’s appalling. They’ve got families, they’ve got children. If I’m an officer, and I’ve got four or five kids, I want to go home to them every night."
Foy has worked in law enforcement in the United States for 39 years and regularly visits Ireland. He currently works at the Manatee County Sheriff's Office, in Florida. He told Journal.ie "My great-grandparents on both sides were born in Ireland, one in Donegal and the other in Mayo, and I regularly visit Ireland with some other officers of Irish heritage."
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.maloney | Jul 30, 2011, 02:48 PM EDT
sirpeter..skunks make great pets when you get them young and raise them. Descented of course. It's not to expensive to have ones glands removed. They are smart, easy to train and make much better pets than a cat. A skunks coat, fur is one of the prettiest in the animal world. They can be lots of fun at a party or tricking, scaring your friends.
sirpeter | Jul 30, 2011, 08:14 AM EDT
maloney.Wow!! Don't think I have ever smelled anything worse then rotting fish or animals.Except for pure ammonia,but a person could avoid that.That's some non-lethal weapon skunks have. ;))
maloney | Jul 29, 2011, 04:55 PM EDT
sirpeter..If it's not the worst I don't know what is. Your eyes water to where you can't see. You have severe breathing problems. If sprayed you will smell it for at least a month with every breath. I've smelled death and skunk is worse. In army basic training you go through a building filled with gas. The drill instructers make you take your mask off and count to 10 before you can run out of the building. It takes well over an hour to get over it. Skunk is much worse!! Rotten fish smell like roses in comparison.
sirpeter | Jul 28, 2011, 05:55 PM EDT
maloney. As you know we don't have skunks in Ireland.Though I will admit I have met a few people who seem to enjoy impersonating a skunk lol.Still I read somewhere it's about the worst smell in the world.Not sure if that is true.
maloney | Jul 28, 2011, 05:27 PM EDT
sirpeter. Being shot may be better than skunk squirted. I grew up in the country on a farm. Dad and I hunted quite a bit and did some live trapping. Dad had some wild skunks in a cage. I remember him getting sprayed at least twice. Mom made him stand in a metal tub while she poured tomatoe juice over his head. He slept in the barn for almost a week. His clothes were burned. She finally made him turn the skunks loose. Lots of laughs!! We hunted coons with hounds and every so often the dogs would get on a skunk and get sprayed. You had to load the dogs in the truck when done. I had skunk on me and spent time in the tub myself but not near as bad as getting hit from the source.
sirpeter | Jul 28, 2011, 01:32 PM EDT
maloney.lol..You might have a good idea there.I fancy the idea of filling the water pistols with liquid skunk spray.A few sprays of liquid skunk and you can burn your clothes and have to spend a few nights out in the garden sleeping.:))
JOHNTOBIN | Jul 28, 2011, 01:48 AM EDT
The police service of the Republic of Ireland along with the police services of New Zealand and the United Kingdom are amongst the few in the world that generally patrol unarmed.And long may it remain so.
maloney | Jul 27, 2011, 08:18 PM EDT
LOL sirpeter you old angry cynical Irishman. How about a compromise? Arm the Garda with water pistols. Have them practice the quick draw while walking the streets. You can get very realistic looking squirters in this day and age. Nobody shoots themselves and everybody is happy.!!
sirpeter | Jul 27, 2011, 06:06 PM EDT
@hostess.Judging by your comments I would of thought you were the one overly angry and cynical about Ireland.Hold on to your false beliefs if you want.I didn't expect to change your mind anyway.All I said was look up the statistics on Ireland.But I know you don't want too.If it makes you feel better that you are in a safer country.That's great.As they say in New York.Have a nice day!! ;))PS. You did check back didn't you lol.I defended my country against over exaggeration and what you like to believe and it made you angry.
hostess | Jul 27, 2011, 01:32 PM EDT
I bid you a good day sir peter, you are a very angry cynical man who obviously goes around with blinkers on and is complete denial. The country is that way because of ignorant people like you who are I'll informed. I notice you respond to many of the articles on Irish central with the same unintelligent nonsense. You must have nothing better to do with your day! For your information the cops are on the highway to stop speeding and perhaps if there were a few more over there so many people would not lose their lives. It's great that we have that protection , pity we don't see more of it in Ireland. I won't be checking in again as I have made my points and truly believe every word otherwise I would not be wasting my time on here.
sirpeter | Jul 27, 2011, 01:04 PM EDT
@hostess.Well if you can't go up your local highway without spotting at least two cop cars then there must be a need for them.Personally I never like to see cops on a motorway.They can upset your journey with a fine if you missed the fact your break light has blown.As for your family home been broken into three times that sounds very unlucky.To judge a country on safety you still have to go on statistics.My house was never broken into (touch wood)and yours was three times.What does that prove? Besides the fact your family home appears to be an easy target.Tell your parents put up a sign."Never mind the dog~Beware of the owner" ;))
kinvara7 | Jul 27, 2011, 11:04 AM EDT
The issue certainly isn't going to go away and a debate is welcome. With the greatest of respect to your views and experiences, I think an analysis and comparison of statistics is required rather than just personal accounts. As an example, the US homicide rate is among the highest in the industrialized world at 5.0 while Ireland’s is 1.35. I agree that we need to take steps to tackle crime, but I remain unconvinced that arming every single guard is the answer. If we are serious about tackling crime, then yes we do need to address issues such as alcohol and substance abuse. We need to think of ways to improve the conditions for those living in the worst areas of our cities and towns. We need to look at city planning, our school system (in particular early school drop-outs) etc. We also need to change our present sentencing and prison system. A lot of changes would have to be made across the board, and the results would not be immediate either, but in the long run it's the only way.
hostess | Jul 27, 2011, 10:23 AM EDT
Kinvara, yes I do believe that I could allow my teenage children to travel to NYC at night in the summer and feel that they are safe. I know from all my visits to a major Capital with millions of people roaming that I will not be robbed or assaulted because there is an armed cop on every corner nearly. Yes I definitely feel less crime is committed as a result of a guard being armed and yes the criminals in Ireland would be less likely to take someone's family including children and tie them up in the local graveyard ( true story) while they take a family to empty the Banks safe if they knew that they would be facing armed Gardai. The force would only be used when necessary and that is what training is there for. I feel very strongly on the subject as I have had too many incidents close to home. Also don't feel safe from many other view points. When my dad had a massive heart attack and emergency services were called, the ambulance was unable to find the house he was at and took 50 minutes to arrive( hospital 10 minute drive away) ambulance driver apologized to my brother a month later in the local golf club. My dad passed away :( I just don't have any trust in the system.... everything so unpredictable.
hostess | Jul 27, 2011, 10:09 AM EDT
Sorry new keyboard with auto correct, apologies for the mistakes:)
hostess | Jul 27, 2011, 10:06 AM EDT
Sirpeter, I am in the US 9 years and believe me I feel safe. I can't go up my local highway without spotting at least two cop cars. I would say I am 100% safe here compared to Ireland. My family home in a nice area of Dublin was broken into three times growing up and they left us behind a nice parting gift. My sister bank( major branch) raided twice by armed criminals also in a respectable part of Dublin, my moms post office in the SE raided last month by criminals, my claifornian friends visiting Dublin last summer accosted by drunken youths on Grafton Street at 9 o clock at night and not an officer to be seen, my camcorder stolen from my bag at my 5 year old birthday party at a well known kids party club and gym with a high membership fee, my moms handbag or purse as it as known here cut from her shoulder as she walked to her local grocery store. Police told her it is common and they are looking for drug money. My list could go on and on, statistics are HIGH over there and getting worst for such a small island. I live in area here 50 miles from NYC with a population of 25, 000 and I can honestly say I have never encountered let alone heard of any of these crimes being committed on such a regular basis. None of my stories about Ireland are here say, they are factual happening to real people that I love and care about. It is just so shocking to me. Also on a different not underage drinking needs to be tackled so badly. Alcohol abuse is the root cause of many of these crimes. Just look at the reports of the youth falling around the streets on St Patricks Day. An ID system such as the driving licence ..... How easy is that to put in place and yet no minister has had the initiative. I love my homeland but it is riddled with crime and something needs to be done quickly.
kinvara7 | Jul 27, 2011, 09:53 AM EDT
Guards have guns in stations and patrol cars and there are also armed detectives and armed response units such as the Emergency and Regional response units which are equipped with Heckler & Koch MP7 sub-machine guns in addition to issue pistols. The fact that most uniformed members of the force do not carry guns is a policy issue. I think fair play to Mr. Foy for helping out but I also think he is completely exaggerating the urgency of his intervention; I also think he has been disrespectful to An Garda Síochána. I also fail to see what use a gun would be in a situation like that described. Such youths would know that they weren’t going to get shot; if a belt of a nightstick and arrest (which could happen) wouldn’t deter them, then I don’t think a gunshot (which is unlikely) would. @Hostess: you mention the good points raised by others but then dismiss them. The question I would like you to answer is whether violent crime has been eliminated in the US as a result of an armed police force? Police in the U.S. are almost always armed yet 230 died in the line of duty in 2001. I’m not convinced that crime rates will drop if all uniformed members of the force are known to carry guns.
stephendoyle | Jul 27, 2011, 09:32 AM EDT
How about arming a percent of the street cops, say 25%? People would not know if they would be dealing with an armed officer or not so deterence is there.............
sirpeter | Jul 27, 2011, 08:45 AM EDT
@hostess.That's your perception.It's not a question of weather you are safe,but how safe you are in comparision to other countries. World's Safest Countries - 2010 ranks Ireland 4th in the world and the USA 25th.That's the overall stats.There are safer areas and not so safe areas in any country.I have lived in Ireland a hell of along time and I have never know anybody who was mugged or stabbed.But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.A digger been used to take out ATMS is a moot point.Hearsay is not an accerate perception.You have to go on stats.My own grandmother would have told you 40 years ago it was unsafe in Ireland when there was maybe one murder a year.Forget the alarmist chit-chat and look up the infomation for the truth.
hostess | Jul 27, 2011, 07:55 AM EDT
You made some valid points Mr Dempsey but I disagree. Ireland is a very unsafe place. You would never see diggers being used to take out ATMS in a wall here as there would be 5 squad cars surrounding you in minutes and armed to make you feel threatened. So why does this happen over there? These young thugs have no respect for the law. I can list the length of my arm people I know who have been affected by crime. The police have a tough job particularly with the underage drinking and drug use but as Mr Foy pointed out they want to go home at the end of a shift to say goodnight to their families so they are afraid to tackle these guys.... they have no defense. it is not worth it and so the crime escalates out of control. As I mentioned previously the number of raids on bank members families is out of control and it still baffles me that a system has not been put in place whereby a staff member can not be driven to a bank to empty it's contents for these things before an unarmed police force arrives on the scene. It wouldn't happen in any other country in Europe or the US. I am so frightened for my family over there as they see first hand all of this going on and my sister has already had a daytime raid with armed criminals take over her workplace. There were customers in the bank at the time, these guys were high as kites and it was terrifying. There was no guards on the scene and their arrival was after these thugs had left the establishment. I truly believe the police are afraid as there is a police station two minutes from where this took place. Guarantee you it would take all of two minutes in the US from the time that alarm is raised to be surrounded by the armed forces and therefor you very rarely see this kind of crime in normal residential areas like the one my sister works in Dublin. All Amy family friends share the same opinion over there the Gardai are terrified!
JamesDempsey | Jul 27, 2011, 04:32 AM EDT
Firstly 25% of the Gardai (plain clothes detectives) are entitled to carry a concealed weapon. So in fact there are plenty of guns available to the Gardai, its just that people dont see them. Secondly the reason why the uniformed gardai dont carry weapons is to portray the idea of a gun free society and to prevent the need for ordinary criminals to carry guns. The incidence of people shooting at the Gardai is very very low, where as in the USA where guns are freely available to all, shooting at police is an every day occurence. Thats not to say in Ireland that criminals dont have guns, they do and lots of them aswell, its just that they dont turn them on anyone except other gangsters bar the few isolated incidents in the last ten years like the murder of a family man in east wall dublin, the shooting of a young plumber who was witness to a murder and the slaying of shane geoghan which was mistaken identity. Also criminals in Ireland I believe probably wouldnt carry guns with them, rather they would be stashed for when needed in an organised hit. We are a small nation here in Ireland people know the people in their areas and Garda know the faces of the troble makers in there area so for the most part gangs of thugs described above know that if they were to harm a Garda be it by knife or gun, that they would be soon rounded up. Where as in the USA there is more anonymity for gangster or thug because of the size of the country and also police have a lot more to worry about because of the free access to handguns and other concealable assault weapons. So my point is that we have Irish laws for Irish ways. The strategy of unarmed uniformed gardai and having the Emergency response unit and all plain clothes detectives (whch makes up 25%) patrolling the streets with concealed firearms seems to be working quite well
bogsidebunny | Jul 27, 2011, 02:39 AM EDT
Mr Foy is 110% correct. However, the sanctamonious Irish will raise their collective noses and mutter: "Yank, stay out of our business. We are all martyrs, and the use of guns and deadly force is against our principles of demeaning the rights of individuals even if they are, ahem, being a bit roudy. After all there are really no BAD prople. Just having a bit of craic, the lads. Ah sure, they'll grow out of that stage. We live in hope." Don't belive me? Just approach any Irish person on Irish soil and they'll poo poo the idea of Garda having guns. This isn't the wild west of the United states. The only thing Dublin City has in common with Dodge City is that it begins with the letter "D". Mind yer own business Yanks. Just come on over and spend lots of dosh. Heavens knows we need it and you have plenty. Now bugger off whilst we slobber over the poor starving Somali folks.
hostess | Jul 26, 2011, 10:56 PM EDT
Couldn't agree more with Mr Foy. Ihave been saying this for years. I left Ireland for the US in 2001 and I am just astonished at the level of crime at home. I have two close family members working in the banking sector and the number of tiger raids carried out on banks that involve kidnapping staff members families is terrifying. There is no respect for the law or the gardai because they know they are not armed and they do not pose a huge threat to these criminals whatsoever. I say train and arm every Garda and watch the crime level drop dramaticially! Serpeter with all due respect in my ten years here in NJ I have never witnessed a petty crime of any nature including drunk and disorderly as it is just not tolerated here, the" Yankee doodle dandy cops "as you refer to them command the utmost of respect and I feel so safe here in comparison to Ireland. Jut last week a family member of mine his house broken into...... It's out of control over there!
sirpeter | Jul 26, 2011, 05:17 PM EDT
Very bad idea!! This Yankee Doodle Dandy cop hasn't a clue or the 75% who voted yes.How many cops are killed accidently by their own gun in the USA? How many seriously injured by their own gun?How many are stabbed by a "sharp edge" in the USA? Now look up the stats on Ireland on how many cops are killed by criminals and drunken thugs or stabbed by a "sharp edge"? The difference between being armed with a gun is NOT an unwritten respect.It's nobody gets killed.