The Queen wears green as she greets Martin McGuinness - VIDEO

You impress me good citizen; your energy excels mine and points about ‘An Tost Fada’, Ne Temere and Seano Fitz all excellent. Keep on trucking!

barneyjo I agree as well that total objectivity is the ideal.But that is an impossibility if you are giving a personal opinion on almost anything.The thing is Barneyjo the closest to total objectivity a person can get is by giving the expert opinions of many many researchers on a certain topic.You find there will be differences but on certain things there is a general consensus.(ie There is a general consensus that there was injustice and discrimination towards Catholics in NI)If someone can refute that point I'm all ears.At this point in time that's the general consensus.It's not my opinion.I am only the messenger.

citizen69.If you are going to put words in my mouth at least quote me saying it.Before I reply to any of your comment show me where I said all the Protestants in Ireland were of the upper class landed gentry?

RedBranch.There is no evidence that ethnic cleansing of Unionists was ever part of official IRA policy.During the war for independence there was an IRA policy that Protestant's and their property was not to be interfered with unless they were actively spying for the British.The exception been during the short time that the British were destroying Catholic property lets say in Cork.These burnings all stopped after Protestants complained to the authorities when their big-houses were been burned.It's not a question of how many Protestants were killed but weather it was official IRA policy.The same could be said of the Irish "famine" How many needed to be let starve in order for it to be genocide.Some people like to call the Irish "famine" a genocide.But I have never found any evidence of a British policy of genocide towards the Irish people.I know for a fact it was not genocide.And I could explain why it wasn't.I could give reasons why they starved or the reasons that Protestants were murdered.But it would be a mistake to jump to the conclusion that both were official policy.These matters are much more complex than people are WILLING to believe.In answer to your second question I used spiritual homeland/Britain.I should have said they moved to an area where they meet those of "Kindred spirit" Which a huge amount did.Your e.g. Gore-Booths of Lisadell are exceptions.Of course there are Protestant Nationalists as there are Catholic Unionists.There are always exceptions.But generally Protestants were Unionists and Catholics were Nationalists.

...So it’s seems it’s quite acceptable to you that a country could dictate to you which religion your children shall adhere to? That a Protestant in a mixed marriage must bring up their child as a Catholic BY LAW!? How anyone could see that as anything other than a gross abuse of human rights for Irish Protestants is beyond me. It was nothing less than social and cultural apartheid. Yet you say maybe it was their own fault for getting married… but then I wonder how Catholic Ireland looked upon an unmarried couple back in the day? Only slightly more favourable than being married to a Protestant I would assume. It’s clearly time you came out of denial and took a truthful look back at Irelands past.

...The first case of gerrymandering in Ireland was in Donegal in the 1930’s and it was directed against Protestants. Donegal was probably the only place left in the Republic after the Cork exodus where unionists could have had representation and they were cheated out of it by the Irish Government. The government itself was no stranger to anti-protestant discrimination with none other than the Taoiseach himself, DeValera, fired a Protestant head librarian in Mayo stating: “A county that is 98% Catholic should deserve to have a Catholic librarian”. Trinity graduates were regularly overlooked in job applications as that had the stigma of being a Protestant college. Even just a couple of years ago the head of the Anglo-Irish Bank Sean FitzPatrick, upon hearing of a possible take-over by Bank of Ireland (seen as a Church of Ireland establishment) was heard to say "No f***ing Protestant" was going to take over his bank. The Republic’s anti-British education system taught that to be truly Irish was to be Gaelic & Catholic, and of course let’s not forget the ‘Special position’ afforded to the Catholic Church in the Irish constitution… look how THAT relationship turned out for you. It seems some citizens were always going to be more equal than others in a country wholly dominated & controlled by Roman Catholicism...

@sirpeter: So you like to propagate the age old myth that all the Protestants in Ireland were of the upper class landed gentry? Nonsense, the overwhelming majority of Protestants in Ireland were working class artisans and small farm owners etc. Maybe you know them better through the derogatory term used for these people…Black Protestants or Black B****rds. These Irish Protestants had as much right to their land as any other Irishman. You make plenty of excuses for the demise of Protestants in Cork while avoiding the main reason… Intimidation & discrimination. 40,000 Protestants were made involuntary migrants due to widespread threats and murders. Many were killed on the accusations of being informants & spies based mainly on no other evidence than the fact they were Unionists and therefore suspect. There are many stories of IRA gangs going to Protestant homes in the wee hours and ordering the occupants to get up and serve their tormentors meals and drinks. I suggest you watch an RTE program called ‘An Tost Fada’ on the plight of Cork Protestants. It wasn’t just Cork, Protestant orphans were deliberately burnt out of two care homes in Connemara by the IRA. They had to be rescued by a British gun boat. 1935 In Galway, dock workers marched through the town behind a fife and band, calling for a general strike of Catholic workers until all the Protestant employees of the city's factories had been dismissed. In Limerick a 600 strong mob stormed through the town burning down Protestant churches & businesses, attacking houses, painting sectarian slogans and enforced a boycott of Protestant shops, employers & employees. There are many other stories...

@sirpeter - I totally concur objectivity is the ideal when it comes to understanding of our own lives and place within a historical context. I would still contend that with the best will in the world it is not possible to be totally objective to the point where we can totally disconnect from our own personal experience, our sense of self and the catalyst for that experience and awareness. I think one of my earlier posts to our friend Allan07 would bear that out :)

'...personal vendettas' sirpeter. At what point do these become official IRA policy. After 10, 20 how many? Include those killings along the border counties in the last century and you're into hundreds and hundreds. If it wasn't policy it certainly wasn't condoned. I disagree that many of the big-house, or indeed small house Protestants (of which there were many) had a spiritual home on the mainland. e.g. Gore-Booths of Lisadell.

@barneyjo.You don't really think I reply to Allan07 and others so that they might change their minds do ya?People hold on to what they believe like they do a religious belief.People don't change any aspect of their lives that easy.I post for the thousands of neutral people who frequent this site and don't comment at all.Unlike some I don't have an emotional attachment to historic events.Much the same way as a surgeon doesn't allow an emotional attachment to the person he cuts open.If a person like yourself puts up an educated reasonable argument on a subject I either let the comment stand for the neutral people to make up their own mind or I challenge the comment in a reasonable manner.If a comment is an abusive unreasonable uneducated personal opinion/argument.I still challenge the opinion/argument first and foremost.But I no tolerance for racists,sectarian bigots and historic triumphalism where it is to the detriment of your neighbour as well as themselves.If a peoples culture and upbringing includes these dangerous attributes.It's time for a culture change.That goes for every culture in my opinion.

@sirpeter - In the case of Allan07 and a good many others I dont really think challenge means anything. A lot of posters when confronted with inconvenient truths seem to either go silent, or just batten down the hatches and continue their fight as they would see it. Allan07 is no more or less a victim in all of this than are you and I; We're all coloured by history and our own sense of it; and in denial to a degree.

citizen69.Allan07 was indeed stating that there were parallels to the "plight" of Protestant/Unionists in the Republic.Land reform from the 1870s to the 1900s must have been very distressing.Large Protestant-owned/stolen estates been broken up and given back to the Irish people WITH compensation money to settle back in their spiritual home of Britain.The disestablishment of the Church of Ireland in 1871.This led the Church to sell many of its properties, in the process laying off many Protestant workers who subsequently moved away.I guess when the Protestant Church couldn't squeeze 10% of a poor Irish farmers income anymore they felt they were in such a plight.During the Irish War of Independence the British came up with the idea that house burnings in Cork and Cork city itself might subdue the uppity Catholic Irish until the IRA deciding to do a little Protestant house burning of their own.Protestant and Catholic spies were shot of course.As a Cork historian I found isolated incidents of Protestant murders probably due to personal vendettas.But have yet to find a campaign of murder and ethnic cleansing against Unionists.Large numbers of Unionists left Ireland.It's not easy for Protestant bigots who considered themselves superior to now be treated as equals.As for intermarriage and children having to be brought up Catholic.They wouldn't have married if it was a big issue.Compare that to what the Catholics suffered in NI.As you already stated Allan07 makes silly and abusive posts.He has a right to do that and I'm only too delighted to challenge his delusional Billy boy crap.

Thanks Barneyjo for your remarks @06.33. I couldn't agree more that Sacred Cows are falling like ninepins! - and about time. O'Neill and Faulkner agreed to slaughter most of them years ago and begin the process, realising the onesided pro-protestant agenda could not be sustained in a modern world. Ironically Devlin and Hume were products of that enlightened move for Catholic emancipation; so where did it all go wrong? ~~~ You may remember the old story about Home Rule being granted only to have some puffed-up self-appointed 'patriots' attempting to hijack the process and in six days set it back six years to a Treaty that then set it back to this very day! - and lost The North forever!! ~~~~~~ Nobody at all can claim any Credit or be proud of the political,social,spiritual and financial disaster our country has become. Yes,Barneyjo,a few snuffed-out Cows lying about the place is a great start; but it will take a good many more handshakes and suchlike to deal with the mighty big Herd that are still left wandering about. Here's hoping we can play our part and live to see it. Slainte!

@citizen69 - We dont have a perfect peace here....no yet anyway, and no-one should be surprised at that. There are still posters who are looking for a victory of one "side" over the other, and thats not surprising when you consider where we who have lived in Norn Iron are coming from. Reading posts here, makes me all the more convinced that it is ultimately up to ordinary folk to engage with those living on the other side of the fence, perhaps for the first time in their lives in order to make peace. And for many, that is not going to be easy. Many sacred cows will have to be let go; as much for Nationalists as for Unionists.I think you are right about the politics of "pragmatism" taking hold here, and you're right, Sinn Fein are looking south. However a handshake on its own will not be enough to attract a sufficiently large rump of "Middle Ireland" to allow the Party to have a decent run for office after the next election. There's also the economic argument to be made. And if the party cannot stretch itself to an economic strategy which goes beyond telling the ECB and IMF to "Feck Off" then they will rule themselves out of office for a further period, because they will remain caustic to the other likely Government partners. "Peace comes dropping slow" and it will be the case in our wee country I think :)

...I'm sure it's more to do with misjudging the mood of the vast majority of people in the Republic who had welcomed the visit. Thing is, Marty meeting the Queen is not something any unionists i know were asking for, even though they do recognise the symbolism of it. More likely Sinn Fein were trying to convince the public in the south that they had left sectarian politics behind (which they haven't). If they wanted to reach out to unionists in a meaningful way they would have fired their minister for Regional Development, Conor Murphy who was found guilty in a tribunal of discriminating against Protestants in his department.