46 Comments

• seanomelb | Feb 01, 2012, 06:03 PM EST

  True Dan we've exhausted this one

• DanOLoingsigh | Feb 01, 2012, 02:31 PM EST

  seanomelb - I brought up the Carl Gustav, then you decided I was referring to a machine gun...which I wasn't...never seen one of those...so you jumped to the wrong conclusion...not just on that point, either...time to stop digging, I think!!

• seanomelb | Jan 31, 2012, 05:21 PM EST

  Gustav small arms (machine gun) you bull is showing again.Combat engineer in the US forces I was right you are full of it.Crawling your way out of a situation which is over your head or just been mischievous.We never mentioned anti Tank weaponsyou miserable little yank know-all.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 31, 2012, 06:00 AM EST

  Maybe your brain has been a little fried in that Aussie sun? The FN was a SLR, the C Gustav was an effective anti-tank weapon...always firing a single shot projectile...FYI I began as a combat engineer...MGB, Mine clearance, demolition...so wrong again...

• seanomelbourne | Jan 30, 2012, 05:53 PM EST

  More invectives from a beaten man. The gustav pulled to the right making it difficult to control,it also was unable to fire single shot.Its replacement the belgian FN was a far superior weapon.You're a bullshit artist and never served in the military.And I repeat you are not Irish, so move on and blog with others who have your limited intellect, George Dillon or gobdawpaddy come to mind.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 30, 2012, 03:48 AM EST

  A BAD WORKER BLAMES HIS TOOL...maybe you should have spent less time playing with yours?

• seanomelbourne | Jan 29, 2012, 06:07 PM EST

  How old are you The "gustav"was sent God and what a usless machine it was. I remember using on the range in Kilcoran shortly before it was retired. You may google Kilcoran if you wish(as you are not Irish). BTW keep those snide remarks coming.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 28, 2012, 05:39 PM EST

  seanomelbourne – I expect your biggest fight was to get a slice of the Army deafness compo!! You know nothing about me or my military service…and I only have your word for your own…show me your ‘carl gustav’, and I’ll show you mine…

• seanomelbourne | Jan 28, 2012, 05:18 PM EST

  Thats right dan! attack an exservice man with a glib remark,What service did you volunteer to join. It's easy to come from left field to avoid answering the question. You never served in the military and you are not Irish.So Dan others have to do the fighting for you and then you cheer at their homecoming parades.A little bit hypocritical maybe?.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 28, 2012, 11:48 AM EST

  seanomelbourne - 'they did a lousy Job'...this is your comment... men who put themselves 'in harms way' to ensure freedom so the likes of you could insult their memory...oops I forgot, you're a 'war hero' too!!

• seanomelbourne | Jan 27, 2012, 06:17 PM EST

  I never questioned anybodies gallantry, here you go again accusing me of comments I did not make. I am an ex serviceman of the Irish defence forcres. What did you do for Ireland? ooops!! I forgot your not Irish.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 27, 2012, 01:09 PM EST

  Seano – you certainly have some neck, criticising the gallant efforts of the allied navies and air forces in fighting the Battle of the Atlantic (The longest continuous battle of WW2), not forgetting the code-breakers of Bletchley Park, while your ‘heroes’ stayed safe pointlessly guarding some boreen in Donegal or Cavan…as to your other point, I did not ‘wish to have your head blown off’, I merely used your own argument about the rights of natives against interlopers, as you yourself are an interloper in Oz…

• cynicus | Jan 26, 2012, 06:20 PM EST

  Whatever their motivation, and I suspect it was young lads anxious to see some action and fighting, rather than wilful desertion and certainly not the high-flying 'treason' bull-dust being expressed by some commentators! If they had stayed at home, and if Ireland had been invaved by any belligerents, the Irish Army would not have stood a chance except to revert to guerilla tactics, hit and run, etc. What I consider much more gutless and 'treasonable to humanity' was the scurrilous activities of the IRA in courting Nazi assistance and resources to attack Britain and, by extension, the Allies during the WW2 - fighting with evil against the small and the big nations, including their own country! Surely, to an unblinkered-by-ignorance observer, these 'deserters' chose the better part and for whatever reason, took on evil and fought it. After all, it is a fact that Ireland depended on Britain and the Allies for protection should the Nazis ever invade. I salute all those who fought the evil of the Nazis; 'desertion' is insignificant in comparison with the good these soldiers did for mankind! Forget the petty parish-pump' craw-thumping- it is disgusting!

• seanomelbourne | Jan 26, 2012, 06:09 PM EST

  cynical cynicus

• cynicus | Jan 26, 2012, 06:03 PM EST

  So, Sinn Fein agrees! Well, let it be done, so! The only decent and humane apologies I have hear in the last 40 years were (1) Gusty Spence's for the loyalists and (2) The British Government for Bloody Sunday. We wait on Sinn Fein-IRA's apologies! How long must we wait? 40 years?

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 26, 2012, 01:58 PM EST

  jonn99: It's very hard to get thru to you. The argument is not about Irishmen who served in the British or any other forces during WW2. It's about that minority among them who deserted their posts in the Irish Army in order to do so. The numbers of the latter group, and this is the only group that is under discussion, most certainly did not reach tens of thousands as you falsely claim. The huge majority of Irish soldiers remained loyal to Ireland--tens of thousands, about 40.000 in all--and did not renege on their oath to serve Ireland and its democratically elected government.

• jonno99 | Jan 26, 2012, 01:25 PM EST

  GeorgeDillon: Re Irish Defence Forces - I am aware of that fact and the very important role they played in protecting the Irish state in WW2. It doesn't lessen one iota the bravery of the TENS of thousands of Irishmen that volunteered for active service in the Allied armies fighting Nazi Germany.

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 26, 2012, 12:27 PM EST

  jonn099: "Irishmen in their thousands joined the allied armies to fight Nazi Germany." You seem to be unaware that Irishmen in the TENS of thousands remained in the Irish Defense Forces and protected the Irish State and its democratically elected government.

• jonno99 | Jan 26, 2012, 06:56 AM EST

  Irishmen in their thousands joined the allied armies to fight Nazi Germany. Dev, as head of a then fledgling barely independent state, had little choice than keep Ireland neutral. It was completely unprepared and ill equipped, yet it was a benign neutrality that in effect favoured the Allies. Joining the British army was a difficult choice for some to make, considering it was less than twenty years after fighting for independence against that same army. Many that joined up would have had fathers, uncles and older brothers that spilled blood in the Tan war. Joining up was not a decision taken lightly. They believed the greater evil was Nazi tyranny. They were right to fight.

• seanomelbourne | Jan 25, 2012, 10:33 PM EST

  The Scots were gutless in their fight against the English to whom they now pay homage to them as their masters.Onward alex Salmond the leader of the free scotland movement.Unfortunately he has to fight the north brit types,you know what I mean the plastic scots.

• Scotchtommy | Jan 25, 2012, 06:43 PM EST

  As somebody said "Whenever you ask a man to step forward to fight for freedom,truth,justice , and human dignity you can bet an Irishman will be first to volunteer" As they did in WW2 - except for the Irish Army of WW2 of course who were a disgrace to the spirit of Erin.Gutless bast--rds

• seanomelbourne | Jan 25, 2012, 05:35 PM EST

  If the British and the yanks were protecting Irish vessels by your reckoning they did a lousy Job. Desertion was an illegal act under Irish law Dan, you seem to be denial of the facts to justify bad behaviour.BTW the German government paid restitution for the above acts as they paid for the bombing of houses in the North Strand.Justifing bad behaviour by others bad behaviour is only clouding the issue.I hope you do not wish to have my head "blasted of (as you stated in another post) just because we disagreed.

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 25, 2012, 12:38 PM EST

  The only attacks on Ireland in the war were by GERMANY, NOT THE ALLIES… including attacks and sinkings of unarmed Irish merchant ships, with clear neutral markings. Ships like the LEUKOS - sunk by U38 off Tory Island - 11 MEN KILLED ~ CITY OF LIMERICK - sunk by the Luftwaffe - Bay of Biscay, survivors recued by brave Belgian trawler - 2 MEN KILLED ~ LUIMNEACH - Bay of Biscay bound for Drogheda– sunk by U46 ~ ISOLDA – Lightship operated by the Commissioners of Irish Lights, sunk by Luftwaffe off Rosslare, 6 MEN killed ~ CLONLARA - Sunk by one of 7 U-Boats en route to Lisbon – eleven killed ~ IRISH OAK - sunk by U607 off U.S. COAST ~ IRISH PINE - sunk by U608 off U.S. COAST – 33 IRISH CREW KILLED ~ KYLECLARE - sunk by U456 in Atlantic bound for Dublin – All 18 IRISH CREW KILLED – Makes you wonder why Dev was so keen to offer ‘his deepest condolences’ on the death of the Commander in Chief of these guys, eh? It was the British and US Navies who protected Irish ships, no doubt with some of these very ‘Traitors’ in the crews…

• DanOLoingsigh | Jan 25, 2012, 12:28 PM EST

  Strangely some posters have called these mens’ action treachery, which implies that it was treasonable – Bunreacht na hÉireann Article 39 states ‘Treason shall consist ONLY in levying war against the State, or assisting any State or person or inciting or conspiring with any person to levy war against the State’... These men were a little too busy in France, Belgium, etc waging war against Nazi Germany…so could NOT BE GUILTY of that charge…unlike members of republican groups who have shot and killed members of the Garda and defence forces…now THAT IS Treason under the constitution… but they are defended by the very same posters…how STRANGE is that?

• Kilsally | Jan 25, 2012, 09:13 AM EST

  70 years ago to this day - 4000 US infantrymen arrived in Belfast Northern Ireland.

• Kilsally | Jan 25, 2012, 09:12 AM EST

  So were the German`s who refused to aid the Nazi`s traitors to Germany - of good guys? The Republic of Ireland remained neutral during the war, many Irish people from the South did not and certainly many from Northern Ireland did not and chose to assist the Allies. It is telling of the `Irish Republican` dissidents that such gallant men, many who paid the ultimate sacrifice for freedom and democracy are treated like lepers rather than the heroes they were!

• IrelandNorth | Jan 25, 2012, 07:57 AM EST

  "Oh what wicked webs we weave. When we practice to deceive!" More grist for the revisionist mill. Only an historically amnesiac peoples (or relentless revisionists) could justify the lepreachaun logic of pardoning deserters. Desertion is desertion, even if to assist Motehr Theresa in Calcutta. You can't run an army with a bunch of non-commital, ambivalent interloping carpet baggers. Get real guys. How did the British Army (BA) treat its deserters to Nazi Germany - by hanging or firing squad. How did the US Army treat deserters to the Viet Cong. By fragging. Why didn't such ambivalent Irishmen just joing the BA directly instead of wasting wasting Permanent Defence Force (PDF) time. I know. I'm an ex-PDF-er, whose now a sniper for the Salvation Army.

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 25, 2012, 05:20 AM EST

  scotchtomm--You and others of your ilk appear to be misinformed. There is no problem with people who "volunteered" to join the British Army. What I and countless others like me object to are those treacherous jerks who had prior to this volunteered for the Irish Army. Their action showed utter disloyalty and treachery. They left their country and its democratically elected government defenseless in time of great danger. Only for the loyalty of the tens of thousands of Irish soldiers who did NOT desert--the great majority--Ireland was wide open to invasion. And in fact one of the posswible sources of invasion was the British Army. Would these "volunteers" have volunteered to kill Irish soldiers had the British Army crossed the border?

• Scotchtommy | Jan 25, 2012, 04:08 AM EST

  Just because so many Irish hate(d) the Brits doesn't mean they had to love the Fascists.The Jews in Palestine,the Greek Cypriots,Afrikaaners,Indians (and what later became Pakestanis)all hated the Brits as much as the Irish but when the British called for volunteers these nationalities came forward in droves to risk their lives to destroy Nazism.So a bit of compassion for those Irish volunteers.It is also believed that there was a substantial element in the Irish Army then who were spoiling to join the fight against Hitler (I know things are a bit murky re these times so it may be just hearsay).We can argue forever as to whether Ireland did the right thing.For what it's worth I believe De Valera was right to keep Ireland out of WW2.It was not Ireland's fight.Was he really going to send young Irishmen to die for Britain?

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 24, 2012, 08:04 PM EST

  For once I agree with melbourne. A written acknowledgment of wrong-doing is needed before any magnaminity can be shown to the treacherous jerks.

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 24, 2012, 08:02 PM EST

  The ironic thing is that the chorus in favor of these treacherous jerks who deserted the Irish Army and left their country almost defenseless comes in many cases from those (Blueshirts, for example) who for years were yelping that there was only "one army" in Ireland. Seems their loyalty to the Irish Armed Forces was quite selective! They may have only recognized one army in Ireland, but they had no loyalty to that army! Questions for the deserter lovers--Would these treacherous jerks have been justified in taking their arms with them to England when they deserted? And had the British invaded the 26 Counties, as seemed likely for a few months in 1940, would these treacherous jerks have been morally entitled to kill Irish soldiers defending the country? And is there action a precedent? In the event of any future hostilities--let's say the British and Argentines once more clash over the Islas Malvinas--would Irish soldiers be similarly "heroes" if they desert in order to join the British Army? How about if Irish soldiers deseret to join armies other than the British? The French Fopreign Legion, for example? Would that be OK? Hamas? They're fighting oppression too. Answers please from the deserter lovers.

• GeorgeDillon | Jan 24, 2012, 07:53 PM EST

  These jerks were quite willing to kill their fellow-Irishmen, indeed their former comrades in the Irish Army, had their Briotish officers told them to do so. They were treacherous vermin, and I'm not surprised to see Sinn Fein cosying up to traitors. As the Irish proverb has it: Aithnionn ciarog ciarog eile. Loosely translated--One traitor recognizes another traitor...

• seanomelbourne | Jan 24, 2012, 04:45 PM EST

  In a time of world crisis they deserted their post. Maybe a pardon would be ok if they apologised(in writing)for their wrongdoing.

• clevelander | Jan 24, 2012, 03:53 PM EST

  @LacarourseanB "England certainly isn't all bad" I never said it or the people are bad. Some of the finest people I have ever meet are english. And the english people have helped many an Irishman/women with jobs and friendship. I also know history well enough. But you are right about something the Irish have participated in their share of injustice against our own. If it wasn't for the Irish, Ireland would be free. Thank you but I think my perspective is just fine. I'll say it again, only the Irish would give an apology to someone who deserted a standing army. No matter what your beliefs are. If possible, please enlighten me as to any other country that would allow a deserter anything other than a jail cell or the rope? Dev's policy on many thing kept Ireland in economic and social decay. Not a fan. P.S I'm Not in cleveland I think you have to be from Mayo to be there. @paddyRanger your ignorance astounds me. Take care

• LacarourSeanB | Jan 24, 2012, 01:29 PM EST

  paddyRanger is right. Clevelander, you're well off base. This is a complicated world and this is an apology long overdue. Following one's conscience so as to aid a cause against tyranny should be met with accolades, not scorn. England certainly isn't all bad. How many fellows from Ireland went to dig spuds et al in the UK before coming to the US. Were those jobs that kept them alive bad? I know the history well enough and it's a difficult one. I really do know that. However, elements of Irish society have also participated in their share of injustice against our own. Broaden your perspective. There are few one size fits all issues in this life. You're hanging out perhaps with the rabble at the West Side IA and spewing some of the bar dribble? Know better.

• paddyRanger | Jan 24, 2012, 12:51 PM EST

  Clevelander, pity you can jail people for being stupid....you'd be locked up ages ago

• SeamusMartin | Jan 24, 2012, 12:17 PM EST

  In times of extreme stress the response is - fly or fight. Their's was to fight. Bless those brave men and women. The apology is was overdue by all!

• cillowen | Jan 24, 2012, 12:16 PM EST

  In line with their once leader Dev, its understandable. Dev who was England's Greatest Spy. He who kept England's back door secure coupled with promise that they'd provide a homeland for his tribe in ME. I became aware of his daddy's ancestry from a bro while visiting an antique show, so many years ago.

• RedBranch | Jan 24, 2012, 12:16 PM EST

  Irishmen in the British Army. I believe SF policy was, until recently, to shoot them on sight whenever possible.

• Porickseantuny | Jan 24, 2012, 11:50 AM EST

  The outrage is that the Brits didn't take care of them. That's where the duty lies. Where is the British apology

• hjfarmer | Jan 24, 2012, 11:36 AM EST

  The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend. God bless those 6,000 brave men.

• Yerffac | Jan 24, 2012, 11:32 AM EST

  Ireland was officially "neutral" during the war. What stupidity and arrogance! Hitler would have turned our fair land into Europe's graveyard had it not been for the Brits and most of all, the Americans. Ireland was not at war with England. These men did not desert.

• madpadd | Jan 24, 2012, 11:07 AM EST

  All brave men...all 6000. God Bless them.

• butlerreport | Jan 24, 2012, 10:06 AM EST

  Deserters are usually shot, not matter what the reason.

• clevelander | Jan 24, 2012, 09:51 AM EST

  "a pardon for Irish soldiers who deserted" Only in Ireland does a DESERTER get an apology!! They should have been jailed at the least. This is rubbish.

• colkelley | Jan 24, 2012, 09:43 AM EST

  Maybe those remaining few Irish WW2 veterans will get together and issue a note of forgiveness to the Irish republic for being so stone stupid as to fail to act on the side of freedom and, in some cases, actually openly hope for Nazi victory. These were men who acted as true Celts and not as the cowards who bomb civilians in the name of "freedom." Ireland should be honored that they even still choose to call themselves Irish.