143 Comments

• TisEyerish | Oct 02, 2012, 11:50 AM EDT

  I'm confused. When I visited Saint Stephen's Green last year, I clearly saw (and took pictures of) a sculpture given to the Irish by the Germans to thank the Irish for their humanitarian efforts toward German children following WWII. Massive numbers of Irishmen fought in WWII, although most of them were in the British Army. As a country, I doubt very much if Ireland was in a position, financial particularly, to contribute much toward the fight against the Nazis. I, for one, can not blame them for their seeming neutrality...it kept the bombs from being dropped and presented a safe place for people in the war-torn countries to send their citizens, particularly children.

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 27, 2012, 03:01 AM EDT

  That wasn't my subject, crutlis...

• curtisjohnson | Sep 26, 2012, 10:39 PM EDT

  stick to the subject at hand, squaddie

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 26, 2012, 06:33 AM EDT

  bunkerhill – So it’s a scholar you are now, and a history scholar at that…and here’s some of us thinking you were just a rabid Anglophobe, with an unhealthy fixation on the Brit royals…so as a ‘scholar’ you must be aware of the continuing small group of Brits who support the ending of the monarchy, and establishment of a republic…it includes House of Lords peers, MPs, and high-profile public figures…which begs the questions, ONE - why would you be surprised at a story such as the one you describe…TWO - what has it to do with anything here?

• bunkerhill | Sep 25, 2012, 05:56 PM EDT

  Along with being a lifetime History scholar I have always enjoyed mysteries, with the English writer Agatha Christie being one of my favorites. Actually Agatha had an American father and an English mother. Agatha was a brilliant writer often encompassing history and psychology into her writings. One psychological prediction she made early on is now coming to the forefront. She was always fair to the Irish and one of her books is based on an extraordinary premise. The book is about unhappy English "commoners" conspiring to build a German naval base on a coastal town in England. Can you imagine such a scenario being written about by an English legend? Unhappy English "commoners" conspiring to get rid of the royals. Look up Christie's work and read the book. Maybe then the people whinning about the lack of Irish involvement will wake up and smell the roses. All History is written by the idle castle dwellers, but in many cases truth is indeed stranger than fiction.

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 23, 2012, 04:07 AM EDT

  Again...stick to the subject in hand, Curtis...

• curtisjohnson | Sep 22, 2012, 11:13 PM EDT

  Speaking of holding certain regimes to higher standards, what type of standard do you hold britain to in Kenya and India? How about in its behavior towards the Kurds or as the world's largest drug dealer? Maybe your are correct in defending britain's behavior because it should be judged in the context of being a brutal oligarchic terror state rather than a pluralistic democracy?

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 22, 2012, 04:55 PM EDT

  Stick to the subject in hand, Curtis...

• curtisjohnson | Sep 21, 2012, 07:56 PM EDT

  Brit trolls like Dano would never accuse the british of standing silent (or, more accurately, hastening) during the famine, of course. He'd rather blame the victims.

• OldMariner | Sep 21, 2012, 04:07 PM EDT

  What about FDR's refusal to take in refugee Jews before and during the war? Select ones were allowed in, e.g. Einstein, but the hoi polloi were denied. This is America's shame and needn't to have been.

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 21, 2012, 01:57 PM EDT

  ancavker - I already agreed that no nation did enough...and I would certainly hold Ireland to a higher standard than the Spanish and Portuguese dictatorships of the time...I would think most Irish people would expect that too...just as a higher standard is expected from Israel than some surrounding states...not that we always get it...but that's whole other debate, TG!!

• ancavker | Sep 21, 2012, 11:13 AM EDT

  Dan: Point taken.But it still does not change the fact that other countries did not do as much as they could for Jewish refugees, and two you do hold Ireland to a different standard vs. other countries.

• curtisjohnson | Sep 20, 2012, 11:13 PM EDT

  The point is that the anglo-sphere had notice of the holocaust far in advance of the Irish government (let alone Irish people) and passed up opportunities to directly disrupt or stop it. The decision to go to war had nothing to do with the oppression of Jewish people or the holocaust but power politics (the US was obviously bombed before entering). Regarding ex-Nazis, the anglo-sphere took plenty in as scientific/military experts.

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 20, 2012, 03:35 PM EDT

  ancavker - are you confusing two different issues? I don't recall saying Ireland did not have a right to stay neutral...whether or not it was 'right' to do so, even after the USA joined, is for another debate. It was the help, or lack of it, to refugees that was the issue here...

• ancavker | Sep 20, 2012, 12:16 PM EDT

  Dan: This is exactly my point with you. It was perfectly fine in your estimation for those countries to stay neutral. And their reasons for staying neutral perfectly valid (assuming those were the reasons, and they appear to be rational and reasonable, so I would not argue with them). Yet Ireland stays neutral and her reasons are deemed by you not to be valid. So again you hold Ireland to a different standard than these other countries. And lets not forget Finland which openly collaborated with Nazi Germany for most of the war.

• ancavker | Sep 20, 2012, 12:12 PM EDT

  Dan: WeYes I am. If Churchill wanted Ireland in the Allied war effort, then yes. Are you really suggesting that Ireland should have joined the war effort, with nothing in return accept some vague promise to encourage unity. If Churchill really needed Ireland, than he would have offered something. If not Fermanagh, south Armagh, west Derry?

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 20, 2012, 03:15 AM EDT

  CurtisJ ignores the facts - although no nation did anything like enough, if the UK took 10,000, Ireland in ratio could have managed more than 1,000...they took virtually zero...more accomodating to ex-Nazis after the war though

• seanomelb | Sep 20, 2012, 01:57 AM EDT

  The bombing campaign got us the GFA and a slight improvement in the living standards of the nationalist population which you treat with contempt.

• curtisjohnson | Sep 19, 2012, 09:39 PM EDT

  The anglo-sphere denied far more Jewish refugees than Ireland, a tiny and, for all intents and purposes, defenceless nation.

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 19, 2012, 05:29 PM EDT

  ancavker – Turn over County Fermanagh in the middle of a world war?…it contained key RAF bases that provided air cover for US Troops and munitions en route to the UK…a ‘good will gesture’ that endangered the lives of thousands of US servicemen would rightly have led to an outcry in the US…are you really claiming that would have been a good idea?

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 19, 2012, 04:40 PM EDT

  ancavker – Portugal and Spain were dictatorships…so little was expected of them; Switzerland bordered Germany so was at immediate risk; Sweden was bordered by Nazi-occupied Norway so ditto. Maybe given the location of Ireland, and the professed self-righteousness of its leader, a little more might have been expected, at least before the war started?

• ancavker | Sep 19, 2012, 02:52 PM EDT

  Dan: The Free State may have been indifferent to the plight of Jews during WW II, but so were many other neutral countries in Europe. Why is Ireland held to a different standard?

• ancavker | Sep 19, 2012, 02:49 PM EDT

  cahahfinbarr: Sorry to correct you my friend, but the off of a united Ireland to De Valera is a myth. One of more than a few of the revisionsits myths making the rounds these last years. The truth is Churchill told De Valera that AFTER the end of the war he would encourage the government in the six counties to reunify with the south, but would not force them. De Valera knew is was an empty statement. Had Churchill been sincere, as a sign of good will he would have at least turned over Fermanagh and Tyrone to Free State jurisdication as they never should have been included in the 6 counties any how.

• cahalfinbarr | Sep 19, 2012, 12:26 PM EDT

  Hi, I do not wish to rake over coals. We remained neutral even after America made up its mind what side it would support. We rejected the British promise of a United Ireland if we abandoned our neutrality. Palestine trusted Perfidious Albion and went to war against Germany. Their reward - 65 of persecution and incarceration. To use the holocaust as an excuse is an obscenity. While we were inexcusable ignorant of what was actually happening, Mr Shatter has no such excuse, and using the holocaust to justify himself and pejorative language to denigrate persons seeking justice and peace is totally unworthy of any proper human being.

• cillowen | Sep 19, 2012, 11:43 AM EDT

  these b can't stop with the whine - in every land they happen upon its like a cancer that spreads and now envelops the world. shame - is a word they don't understand - sick muthers.

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 19, 2012, 11:19 AM EDT

  Minister Shatter does not claim that Ireland could have prevented the holocaust…but it could have facilitated some of the Jewish refugees who were escaping Germany in 1938/39, just as the British did with the ‘Kindertransport’ of 10,000 mainly Jewish children…instead they did nothing ….Irish neutrality was a judicious response to political realities, Irish indifference to what was happening in Europe is the issue here…

• BigDaddy | Sep 19, 2012, 10:32 AM EDT

  I believe bunkerhill makes a fine point: why after 67 years is this subject bring brought up now? However, I have many Jewish relatives as well and there is a segment of that culture that has made an industry out of the Shoah. In fact, it's the title of a book written by a Jew. But again, this isn't about WW II, it's about something else.

• Thebhoys01 | Sep 19, 2012, 10:13 AM EDT

  I find the comments made by the minister outrages. Does he seriously believe that a nation still trying to find its own way in the world could have made even the tiniest difference in respect of the horrors of the holocaust, whilst the rest of Europe and America which by the way had an enormous Jewish citizenship sat and did nothing and as I have recently discovered that the Jewish community in America were as silent as everyone else whilst eye witnesses were reporting of their fellow Jews being massacred.I also find it typical of Jewish politicians when they make comments about anti semitism it seems to me that every disagreement made regarding Jewish state policy amounts to anti semitism. It is time they took their collective heads out of the sand stopped blaming all their ills on the holocaust, they as a nation do not have a monopoly on holocausts some nations were there long before the Jewish nation and started looking seriously at their conduct towards the Nation of Palistine

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 19, 2012, 05:10 AM EDT

  German historians are not as mealy mouthed as Seano on the causes of WW1. Volker Berghahn cites decisions made by “the small circles around the monarchies of Vienna and Berlin... and to a LESSER EXTENT, London, Paris and Saint Petersburg,"…This clearly places most of the responsibility where it really lies…Seano also believes that Northern Ireland’s discriminatory practices somehow ‘Forced’ PIRA into its bombing campaign…NO IT DID NOT…in both cases decisions were made to try and force neighbours into their arms…both failed…and long after those involved have ceased justifying their positions, Seano still wants to be an apologist for them… I wonder why?

• curtisjohnson | Sep 18, 2012, 10:04 PM EDT

  The notion that Ireland as a tiny country barely clinging to its own sovereignty could have stopped or materially altered the holocaust is equally absurd. Of course, the british terror state was more interested in killing unarmed civilians in Dresden than stopping the holocaust. Moreover, hundreds of thousands (and probably millions) of Jewish victims were denied refuge by the anglo-sphere which had knowledge of the holocaust through intelligence agencies long before the Irish.

• curtisjohnson | Sep 18, 2012, 09:58 PM EDT

  It's preposterous to assert moral superiority in relation to WWI. However, the Treaty of Versailles was indisputably an immmoral and poisonous abomination (engineered by the british behind the scenes)which led to the rise of the Nazis and WWII.

• seanomelb | Sep 18, 2012, 07:14 PM EDT

  Germans may beg to differ on why WW1began. Europe could not sustain three powers so something had to give. Btw it was a lousy war and as usual the only sufferers wer the working class.

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 18, 2012, 06:55 PM EDT

  ancavker – I have never claimed that Germany bears sole responsibility for WW1. In most wars there are long-term causes, and then the trigger that starts the war. In WW1 that trigger was Germany’s declaration of war on France, just as in WW2 it was Germany’s decision to invade Poland, and in the American Civil War it was the confederate attack on Fort Sumter…these are matters of historical fact, so in that sense they did start those wars… some republicans cannot accept those facts, given their relationship with Germany in both wars… as an American, do you acknowledge and value the part played by the U.S. army in WW1 and/or WW2, or do you think you were on the wrong side?

• ancavker | Sep 18, 2012, 03:31 PM EDT

  Dan: Well there is the rub. You believe Germany started WW I, and as Kevin K pointed out to you, and I have in the past it was much more complicated than that. And England shares the blame as well. As far as air brushing Irish men who fought in the British army out of Irish history, what do you mean air brush? As an independent Irish state the repsonsibility of that state is to honor the men and women who fought and died for that independence. What does Irish men who fought in the British army have to do with that? Revisionists want them put up their with the men and women sho fought in 1916-22, in fact many revisionists think only the ones who fought in WW I should be honored. Do Americans honor the Americans who fought on the side of England at July 4th celebrations?

• ancavker | Sep 18, 2012, 03:24 PM EDT

  Dan: ANd you assume again, that it was all Germany's fault. ANd the main thing Germany remmebrs is that their defeat in WWI coupled with crippling inflation led to the rise of Hitler. The German's rebuilt after WW II, and created a successful economic power house that no other country in Europe has been able to match.

• maryosullivan | Sep 18, 2012, 01:21 PM EDT

  How long before Shattner tries to follow Germany and Austria signing into law that any comment to minimize the holocaust is a crime. I will believe in his sincerity when he speaks of the disgrace of the Irish government covering up the Irish holocaust, usually referred to in a weasel version as " that famine"

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 18, 2012, 11:12 AM EDT

  KevinK – You paint a fairly accurate portrait of pre-1914 Europe. But you don’t acknowledge that the present, peaceful EU was created ONLY because the democracies stood against the German war machine in two World Wars… you may portray the 20th century as a series of unnecessary wars...but most Germans have learned the lessons of their belligerency, and have created a successful, democratic country, with an aversion to warfare…it didn’t just happen, me bucko, a huge price had to be paid!!

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 18, 2012, 04:57 AM EDT

  Seano – take some advice…try contributing to the debate, and not acting like a lapdog to others…

• seanomelb | Sep 18, 2012, 02:26 AM EDT

  Such as the holocaust in Palestine glounlathan.

• glounlathan | Sep 17, 2012, 08:24 PM EDT

  DeValera's trip to the German Embassy was a disgrace but staying out of the war was justified. In 2012 there are not many years difference between the time the German Holocaust happened and that time span between the Second World War and the Irish Famine. So there was also the memory of a Great Hurt very much in the minds of many in Ireland---they certainly did not know in the early part of the war much of what the Germans were up to, and when it did become apparent there was not much a poor nation could do. I will hasten to add that many Jewish people in America did contribute in the aid to the Irish Famine relief funds and we should be greatful for that. But I think Mr. Shatter should read Mr. Grossman's book who was a police officer in the Palestenian areas. There is enough hypocracy going around for everyone here. I know of several Native Americans who would say that some Jews and Irish alike took their Promised Land or their Auld Sod from them and gave them their Trail of Tears. I think we shoud all stop wasting our time with the past and concentrate on avoiding the Holocausts of the present or the future.

• seanomelb | Sep 17, 2012, 07:42 PM EDT

  Dano take some advice, the more you justify your position the deeper the hole. Do as you normally do when your shot down go quietly to another post.

• KevinKehoe | Sep 17, 2012, 06:00 PM EDT

  [1] Good old DanO, he recites history like a recruiter from the past.” Roll up Roll up join us now to defeat the evil Hun, bring your sons along too, to die its for a good cause. “ To make the Bankers who were financing ALL sides in that terrible war even richer” The same Bankers who are now running the US. Dan people in the west are more educated now, most know what really happened,they know that tensions were dangerously building up in Europe years before the war broke. For you or anyone else to state in the year 2012 that Germany started WW1 is pure and utter nonsense or total ignorance. Russia, Britain & France [the Triple Entente] were well aware that the German economy was passing them by at an alarming pace, they were getting to powerful for there own good. In such a climate all that was needed was a spark which was the assassinated of the Austrian Franz Ferdinand. The Central powers would stand together under there treaty and visa-versa. The first army to mobilize were the Russians.

• KevinKehoe | Sep 17, 2012, 05:56 PM EDT

  [2] They are the facts and not the tripe that was told to people all those years ago so as they would send off there sons to die, and recited by you here on this site.If the Russians didn't mobilize first then the Germans might have or the French that was the makeup of Europe. And after two world wars we now have the EU, with all its faults its still better than the past and will help keep the peace within itself. So less of the old staff recruiting officer blarney Dan, Irishmen and indeed other peoples of 1914 with no work and hungry families might have believed such nonsense, but not anymore me bucko.

• Greendays | Sep 17, 2012, 05:42 PM EDT

  Obviously if stories like "holocaust films are hollywood creations(including doctored and edited reruns from other travesties)even then we must be in shock and awe at the sheer "horror" this world can generate. Surely we hope that such suffering would be brought to a swift and definite end. I was just tipping a pint with some of the wee folk just the other day and saying how for the past 61 years all I hear about is Isreal this and Isreal that(I was raised Catholic)and deluged with tales about the demonic German's struggle against "God's Chosen". But I rarely hear of the Irish struggle; the one before they became absorbed by the One World, One Internet.

• bunkerhill | Sep 17, 2012, 04:18 PM EDT

  Alan Shatter's attack on the Irish is part of a present campaign. How can we forget that we are constantly told the royals of England were "German Saxons" and is there anyone who does not know that Phillip's sister was married to a Nazi general. Whether Hitler won or lost the royals were angling to stay in place and would have. Last week I read on this site that the Nazi's bombed a Jewish neighborhood in Dublin. I have been there and it is indeed a very tiny spot, one block I believe. I wondered why in a "free" country the Jews chose to remain so concentrated. I have a book which says the Germans bombed Dublin three times as a warning because the Irish were sending fire engines into Northern Ireland to put out fires. They were not pinpointing that particular block. Why doesn't Shatter mentioned Switzerland's banks and their involvement in WWI and WWII. Why is Switzerland's neutrality never mentioned. Even our USA didn't know about Nazi death camps until the war was over. What about the Palestinians and their children? Why are the Israelis rounding up and imprisoning people from the Sudan who have entered Israel? Israel's Netanyahu is waging a campaign to have the US annilihate Iran. He appeared on US TV on 9/11 with the Israeli flag flying over our flag and castigated our President for not nuking the men, women and children of Iran. No compassionate people would advocate such a terrible thing. Shatter is on a campaign. For any Irish person, don't waste one minute being taken in by this ploy. I should end by saying that not all Jews are Zionists and many are the most compassionate people in the world and they themselves are also involved in a war with the Zionists. Do I hate Jews? I doubt if there is another Irish-American who has more Jewish relatives than I have. Wake up and stop beating yourselves up. Shatter is part of a larger ploy.

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 17, 2012, 03:05 PM EDT

  Seano – Pointless contributed nothing other than a ‘Trial by TV’ argument to an ongoing debate…you contributed less…so it’s reassuring to know you guys are on the same (losing) side of recent Irish history... wanting ‘disclosure’ when it suits, but Omerta for subjects like the ‘Boston College’ evidence…

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 17, 2012, 03:03 PM EDT

  ancavker – I have never argued that there was anything glorious about WW1, but once started, yes by Germany, then it was necessary to fight it…or face the alternative, a Europe dominated by the Kaiser’s Germany. Many more Irish fought in British uniforms than got involved in 1916, that’s for sure…later efforts to discredit those men, and ‘airbrush’ them out of Irish history were early examples of the ‘revisionism’ you claim to abhor…

• ancavker | Sep 17, 2012, 11:43 AM EDT

  oldboreen: If Hitler had defeated the U.K. I think that would have been the end of it. In fact and Hitler's writings show that he admired England and their empire, and considered them to be part of the master race. I think he wanted them out of the war, and he would probably let them keep their empire as well. In fact he probably would have had no problem if they reoccupied the south. He thought the Irish were an inferior race.

• ancavker | Sep 17, 2012, 11:40 AM EDT

  kevin: YOu have to udnerstand Dan. WWI Was a glorious war, led by Britain to stop the evil doing Germans. The Irish accoriding to Dan should have only been to willing to fight. The Irish fight for their independence, real independence, and they were wrong. The revisionists claim they want to put Irish hitory and nationalism in perspective, and remove the myths surrounding it. Yet they replace it with their own revisionism myth.

• warrenpoint00 | Sep 17, 2012, 11:27 AM EDT

  Professor Dano Longshanks now wants us to acknowledge that the 34 innocent people murdered in Dublin and Monaghan in 1973 by the military wing of his british government deserved what they got because of the political climate in the North of our country at that time.The truth is, that is what old Dano and his heroic platoons deem as british justice.Just like one of his old british generals before him in Dublin in 1919 that issued orders to his british platoon "shoot them all if you have to bound to get one of them at some point".british justice.Meanwhile Alan Shatter laments the shameful Irish while he sits on his hands and refuses innocent Irish people a government enquiry into their murders by a foreign government.I think Alan Shatter, Dano Longshanks and his platoons abide by the same justice system.

• maceinri | Sep 17, 2012, 10:28 AM EDT

  Previous poster: it is quite true to say that Britain was 'neutral on the side of the Fascists' during the Spanish Civil War, although it was less a matter of being complicit with Adolf Hitler than with the natural right-wing bias of the British upper classes. That does not in any way excuse the odious antisemitism of Irish officialdom, even if their place in the overall scheme of things was a very minor one. Whatever Churchill was - and he was a complex and odious character in many respects - Ireland and the Irish who defined its policies should take responsibility for their own disgraceful, immoral and ultimately murderous complicity.

• maceinri | Sep 17, 2012, 08:51 AM EDT

  The Brits complicit support for Adolf Hitler and th facists in the Spanish Civil War was a slightly more critical blow to the war against fascism and an action that had far bigger repurcussions for the Jewish people than anything the Irish people are spuriously charged with. Britain allowed the Germans to use Gibraltrar during the Spanish Civil War, suppressed French aid to the Republican cause (which gave the Russians undue influence). Anthony Eden expressed his longing for a fascist victory and the Royal Navy sent tracking information of ships to the fascists. The Brits also permitted Franco to set up a signals base in Gibraltar, a British colony, the Germans were allowed to overfly Gibraltar during the airlift of the Army of Africa to Seville. But as per usualthe WASP-ish centric News agencies have to scrape the barrel for new scapegoats for the kind of general shrug of shoulders ambivalence towards the rise of fascism in the SPanish Civil was that led to the Holocaust that men like Churchill (who were openly racist and who fervently agreed with gassing second-class mortals such as Kurds)were quite happy to let lie. By no means confront the age old revisionist mythology but by all means denegrate Ireland ahead of a Churchill who turned his backs on the Poles after the war and who denied the heroes of the best squadron in the Battle Of Britain a mention in the history books until the mid-80's. But blame the Irish, easier than challending Anglo/WASP orthodoxy I suppose.

• Renelda M. | Sep 16, 2012, 09:34 PM EDT

  As the decent people were quiet and unhelpful toward the Jews fleeing Hitler's evil, I wonder if today, Israel has learned from that horror. Today, is Israel welcoming to nations fleeing the horror of injustices in their countries. If so, they are a blessed nation. If they have not learned to be welcoming to those fleeing the hoorible oppressions of their evil leaders, then Israel is bound to be damned. I hope and pray they are blessed asd are all nations who welcome and protect the endangered citizens of horrible nations.

• seanomelb | Sep 16, 2012, 08:09 PM EDT

  Poor old Dano given another verbal hiding by warrenpoint00 I suppose it's a change from Dano's usual posture of self flagellation. I wonder Dano do you go to bed each night humming "wrap the union jack round me boys" LOL

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 16, 2012, 07:20 PM EDT

  Pointless supported the republican murder gangs (and still does), but can’t accept the consequences of their campaign…let’s hear any evidence, that’s probative evidence and not any TV speculation…or do you adopt the ‘Boston College’ defence when the victims don’t agree with your twisted logic?

• oldboreen | Sep 16, 2012, 07:19 PM EDT

  A question for the anti-British idiots posting on this site. Had Nazi Germany occupied the UK in world war two,would Hitler have respected Irish nutrality? Come on, straight yes or no!

• warrenpoint00 | Sep 16, 2012, 06:35 PM EDT

  DanOLongshanks professor of terror still trying to push the old butchers union flag into our faces with his fanatical rantings about his british military platoons.Bore, bore bore dude your head is so far up your brit ass you cant even know what the truth smells like.Your military war heroes murdered 34 Irish citizens in Dublin and Monaghan in 1973. The Evidence.Contact one of your own media outlets Yorkshire tv, they produced a lot of evidence on the twenty fifth anniversary of these murders back in 1998.Run along now old chap get your head out of that dark place and discover the truth and tell Alan Shatter to allow the families of these innocent people an opportunity to bring some of your military heroes to boot for the murders they committed in Dublin and Monaghan in 1973.

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 16, 2012, 03:52 PM EDT

  Of course the Schlieffen Plan, as varied by von Moltke, was put into effect…Germany had to neutralise France before facing the slower mobilising Russians or risk a war on two fronts, that’s why Belgium had to be invaded…BEFORE A SINGLE BRITISH PLATOON WAS IN FRANCE so not marching anywhere near Germany…It’s simply FALSE to claim that it was in response to any British, or even French activity…The British war plan was based on a Naval Blockade of Germany, as the army was far too small to be any threat to the huge, conscripted Germany army. There may be wise people commenting here, regrettably you’re not one of them…

• oldboreen | Sep 16, 2012, 01:17 PM EDT

  In 1943 my Irish mother, sister and I,seeking refuge from the London bombing,briefly lodged with distant relatives in Drumcondra,Dublin. We were not welcomed there, nor subsequently in County Limerick where we were met with indifference at best, and open hostility in a few cases. I remember it well. The so called'Emergency'-surely the ultimate euphemism!-was largely a matter of an irritating shortage of oil, sugar, tea and candles as far as my Irish relations were concerned! In Dublin,I remember being taken to see the Nazi flag flying over the German Embassy.It was considered amusing to show a kid from war-torn London the flag of a nation responsible for the deaths of fifty million people.So much for our cherished notions of Irish compassion and hospitality!Oh,and by the way,I am the son of two Irish parents! Neutral Ireland's record between 1939-1945,is far from glorious! We now know,that in 1939,German Jewish children on board the 'Kindertransport'trains into London,fleeing from Nazi persecution of the Jews, by that time well known to the Irish government, on direct orders from de Valera, were refused entry into Ireland.It would have been a few dozen terrified kids! Hardly a threat to Irish Neutrality!

• Wexfordman | Sep 16, 2012, 10:52 AM EDT

  Once again another shameful article demonising Irelands netural stance. If it were not for peral harbour the USA may have never been involved in WW2. We stated out of a war that wasn't ours to fight. Was Ireland meant fight with brits when 20 years previous theyy were executing our leaders. If de Valera committed any crime it was he was too netural when offered condolences to the germans on the death of Hitler. People must remember many countries only declared war on germany in the closeing stages of the war so they could get some victory spoils.

• KevinKehoe | Sep 16, 2012, 07:57 AM EDT

  While your studying Dan, check out the French and British counter-plans, fascinating stuff.

• KevinKehoe | Sep 16, 2012, 07:49 AM EDT

  So DanO quotes “Count Alfred von Schlieffen’s Plan” pity he didn't study it before quoting it. The German military were hardly going to enact the plan after Britain and the allies were marching through Belgium towards German borders now would they Dan. Better STUDY a bit more history yourself Dan, you might get away trying to convince the uneducated you know your history but I’m afraid there are to many wise people commenting on this site for your waffling to go unnoticed.

• maceinri | Sep 16, 2012, 04:24 AM EDT

  It is dismaying to note from some of the comments below that antisemitism is still alive and well in the minds of some Irish people. I happen to disagree with Shatter's views on the Middle East today, but his views on Ireland during and after WW2 are entirely justified.

• jacersagain | Sep 15, 2012, 07:52 PM EDT

  @ pmccafrey – despite what Belfast-born former President of Israel, Chaim Herzog, said, that’s not quite right. My father was employed in a managerial capacity in a factory owned and run by two Jewish brothers in Dublin. They were very kind to him and to our family as a whole; my mother was particulary liked by the wife of one of the brothers and they later became great pen-friends when she emigrated to warmer climes. But most of the other workers in the company, men and women, while grateful for their employment by the Jew men, were Catholic and notoriously anti-Jew. As a young boy, I once worked in the factory during a summer school break and found the anti-Jewish sentiment amongst them disturbing. They used to say things about the two Jew brothers like “They’re only using us to make money”. Fact. The company still exists but the Jews are gone and the company is now in Irish Catholic hands.

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 15, 2012, 06:07 PM EDT

  Pointless calls for an enquiry and gives us the result at the same time...a Pointless exercise then? All he seems to lack is any evidence?

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 15, 2012, 05:50 PM EDT

  So KevinK thinks Germany invaded Belgium to prevent 'the advance of Britain'...so how does he explain that the ivasion began on 3rd August, BEFORE any of the British Army was even in France? He should take his own advice and read some history - starting with the Schlieffen Plan!!!!

• pmccaffrey | Sep 15, 2012, 05:40 PM EDT

  Alan Shatter should know that the Irish born President of Israel said that Ireland was the only country in Europe that hasn't a history of antisemitism.

• POL O L | Sep 15, 2012, 04:34 PM EDT

  Bring back the Blue Shirts!

• warrenpoint00 | Sep 15, 2012, 04:33 PM EDT

  The justice ministry in Ireland still continues to stand shamefully silent in refusing a public enquiry to the families of those Irish nationals murdered in the bombing of Dublin and Monaghan in 1973 by military special services of the british government.You live in a glass house Mr Shatter don,t forget that.

• KevinKehoe | Sep 15, 2012, 02:38 PM EDT

  GregShox. Because Ireland was an occupied and oppressed country seeking freedom, liberty and democracy, or did you not know that. Britain and some Anglo Irish campaigned falsely in Ireland for recruits to fight for the small nation of Belgium on the lie that it was a small innocent country. True Germany did occupy Belgium to defend the advance of Britain and France thought the western front. But as I’m sure you must be aware little Belgium was not so innocent as they were exposed a few years earlier for the mass-murder and torture of hundreds of thousands people in the Congo by a an Irishman Roger Casement. As for your ridiculous dumb comment as to why Ireland would have been entitled to a seat at Versailles 1919, Ireland was looking for a hearing not a seat. If you want to know anymore read history, end of.

• Lughaidh | Sep 15, 2012, 01:09 PM EDT

  Strongly disagree with Brendan's comments. It is not incumpent upon the Irish people to fight and die for the self-styled Master Race of Holy People. Those that did so were mercenaries and traitors to the Irish Army. I don't follow the dictates of the Babylonian Talmud and I hope you don't either. No Jew should have been let into Ireland after the war either. They ALWAYS try to dominate as soon as some are let in, especially Ashkenazi Jews: just like they do in Britain, America, Canada, France, Germany, etc.

• VonLiebenitz | Sep 15, 2012, 12:42 PM EDT

  Irelands token Jew berates the irsh government for not helping enough Jews.Wether they knew about it or not or wether the Catholic Chruch had a hand to play in it is largely irrelevant as the only outcome of this wether consciously intended or not on the part of Mr Shatter will be to bolster support for Zionist regime in Israel to continue killing and imprisoning Palestinians and stealing their land piece by piece.

• ruaaine | Sep 15, 2012, 12:39 PM EDT

  Pakistan have nuclear power, border with Iran, have assasinated every leader they've had this century hid bin laden are uneducated & full of sunni fundamentalists. Iran has no nuclear power, have not bothered any other country as they are not arabs or sunni moslems, they do not support hesbollah or hammas (despite us uk & Israels smear tactics). though Israel may not like it many middle eastern countries despise them & disbelieve Shoah & the idiotic Ahmadinejad has never threatened NUCLEAR annhialation he has said Israel should be wiped off the map but he was quoting Ayatollah Khomeini at the time. Yet Iran is a major threat?? No Mr Shatter your immediate threat is Pakistan who have the means & the desire to "turn Israel to smoke and ash"

• hermitTalker | Sep 15, 2012, 10:16 AM EDT

  Looks as if for the second time my post about PIUS X11 saving Jewish kids in all of Rome's religious houses, only leader who spoke out publicly but acted privately to save the children. Plan was to smuggle out of the Vatican to Ireland if Mussolini-Hitler would try to kidnap him. If this is censored it will show you ignorance and bias IT.

• GregShox | Sep 14, 2012, 08:35 PM EDT

  Mairint -- I didn't notice Alan Shatter saying anything about Catholics. Where did you get that idea?

• GregShox | Sep 14, 2012, 08:10 PM EDT

  KevinKehoe -- I don't believe the republic was recognised by any other country in 1919. Why would it have been entitled to a seat at Versailles?

• KevinKehoe | Sep 14, 2012, 07:37 PM EDT

  GregShox. Irish delegation let by Sean T OKelly

• GregShox | Sep 14, 2012, 07:25 PM EDT

  I have to say, Irish Central continues to educate me. How not to operate a comments policy.

• kubs | Sep 14, 2012, 07:15 PM EDT

  Lets see---who else can we blame? Andorra? San Marino? How about Iceland? They haven't had their day on the dock yet.

• jacersagain | Sep 14, 2012, 06:51 PM EDT

  Mr. Shatter is both a lawyer and a politician. Shure don't we all know that both kinds lie through their teeth.

• Lughaidh | Sep 14, 2012, 05:08 PM EDT

  Shatter's rabid ethnocentric propaganda is sickening. I don't know why any Irish person would vote for this vile specimen, or Fine Gael in general while they placate his Zionist supremacist view of the world and history. A rough equivelent would be "Shameful Jews stood silent while the Irish Famine happened." Actually, even this is not an accurate analogy, since during the famine the Jewish Rothschild crime family actually DID pretty much control Britain, while no Irish people have ever controlled affairs in Germany, let alone during the Third Reich. Looking at the behaviour of Alan Shatter and Ronit Lentin, it appears that Father Denis Fahey was right. I'm still waiting for Shatter to apologise for his fellow Jew, Menasseh Ben Israel, funding the blood-soaked criminal Oliver Cromwell, or for his fellow Jew, Francisco Lopes Suasso, funding William of Orange, whose invasion in 1690 resulted in the removal of pretty much all rights from the Irish until the campaign of Daniel O'Connell during the 19th century.

• misneac | Sep 14, 2012, 09:43 AM EDT

  If Shatter wants to make an issue of what a little rocky island hanging on to Atlantic edge of Europe should have done when confronted by mighty world powers ,perhaps people should have a close look at what Shatter ,Quinn and Gilmore are now trying to do in Ireland 2012 - the agenda to deny Irish children the right to be educated in a school with a proven high standard of education and a Catholic ethos !

• bob mcbride | Sep 14, 2012, 09:42 AM EDT

  Please Mr.Shatter keep your self serving history lesson to yourself. There were alot of irish who served in american,canadian,aussie,new zealand and british forces during the war. If you and your family were living here at the time it was really voo doo to help any of Churchills forces in any way. For what they did here and he wasn't very nice to the striking miners now either was he, Alan. But perhaps to have a true understanding of it u might have to be irish. Are you really irish Alan? Preach your gobshite elsewhere please!

• shuvonn | Sep 14, 2012, 07:48 AM EDT

  Was not Shatters family (living in Rathgar and DSS and attending the private fee paying High School ) one of those shameful Irish people who stood by also? What actions did they and other jews living in Ireland take during that time? Or was he simply blaming just all the Roman Catholics in Ireland at the time?

• IrelandNorth | Sep 14, 2012, 06:38 AM EDT

  Whatever about An Taoiseach (and subsequently Úachtarán) Éamon De Valera's reputed ambivalence towards subsequently realised excesses of Nazi Germany's Third Reich, a redeeming feature is that he was also busy sacking the Free State's second Garda Commissioner General Éoin O'Duffy for an attempted coup(-de-grace). Gen O'Duffy (a Cumann na nGael/Fine Gael Minister for Justice and Defence predecessor of the Rt Hon Minister Shatter's), actually fought for Hitler and Mussolini's bosom buddy Generalissimo Francisco Franco and his fascistas in the Spanish Civil War, 1936-'39 with the blessing and financial assistance of the ecclesia which styles itself the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church. As a certified Jerusalem Pilgrim (JP) who visited the Holocaust Museum in '09, outrage at the Shoa by members of the chosen people is understandable. But Jewish-Irish government ministers are elected to represent Ireland (and its own promised [hinter]land!) rather than that of Palesrael or Israstine. Even if a previous Cumann na [Fine] Gael Taoiseach (John A Costello) described himself as Roman Catholic first and Irish second. Contemporary Ireland is no longer a crypto-theocracy, even if Iran actually is. Mixing religion and politics is as bad an idea as combining Justice and Defence in ministerial portfolios.

• Sparklet | Sep 14, 2012, 05:10 AM EDT

  CurtisJohnson just made the most ridiculous comment I've ever seen on here, and that's saying something. What should the British have done to prevent the holocaust? Did he ever hear of WW2?

• Stiofain | Sep 13, 2012, 11:50 PM EDT

  Jews have been coming to Ireland since "the burning times" aka the Spanish Inquisition, 15th century.

• Lynchy | Sep 13, 2012, 11:44 PM EDT

  Mr. Shatter has his own political agenda and unfortunately we are likely to see him grow in confidence to express and push this agenda to the maximum. Are we to carry the weight of atrocities carried out in far away places like Poland? then we all, must carry a weight for standing by as hundreds of thousands and indeed millions of people were killed in more recent wars and conflicts. If we look at the survivors of conflicts then how should we treat the boat loads of people trying to land in Europe and Australia? The people of all victim nations seem to be refused entry to every country that could offer a safe haven. Surely there must be one country that acts as a beacon of hope for refugees? Is there a country that does not force immigrants or refugees to leave when it suits a political purpose? If only there was a country that accepted hundreds of thousands of immigrants and did not ask their religion or consider their colour when deciding their fate. I am sure that if Mr. Shatter knew of a place where people are subjected to the most horrendous abuse, I am certain that he would obtain a boat and bring those people the most basic materials for life, I bet he would even offer to pilot the boat himself.

• Lynchy | Sep 13, 2012, 11:41 PM EDT

  We can rest assured that if Mr. Shatter had the influence to assist hundreds of thousands of people living in the most apalling conditions, living in fear for their lives and the future of their children and if he could do so on behalf of the Irish electorate then we know that he would...wouldn´t he? If Mr. Shatter ignored suffering that is actually happening today then I know he would be truly ashamed. He would not ask others to carry an old burden when he is in a position to speak out about inhuman treatment of children happening today and every day. I believe the Irish do feel shock and horror when we hear of the suffering of others, Concern and Goal have represented us well, the hospitals and schools around the world with an Irish founder, liberation theology in South America; we have more to be proud than ashamed of. So, what is Mr. Shatter seeking to achieve? I wish him success if he will constantly remind us of the millions of people around the world who died because they were considered less important. The Irish had our share of that and I think it effects us, we can understand the rage, we understand why the rage can lead to resentment. I don´t have any reason to support a monument to anyone who considers themselves more important. I have a question. Is it likely that a people subjugated will respond with the same violence as the oppressor? I suggest not.

• mairint | Sep 13, 2012, 10:19 PM EDT

  Mr. Shatter was it not you showing your antiCatholic bias recently? Is this another back door version of attack on the Irish? Be careful for you show a certain deep rooted problem. The Irish of the 1930's/40's were 'on their uppers' after years of deprivation by England and wars of freedom fighting. On the other hand, there was no bias against Jews in Ireland even though they sort of ghettoized themselves. How about Mayor Briscoe? How about the tailoring trade of the 50's, the jewellery and antique shops. Stop trying to re-write history to your own mold.

• dan Breen | Sep 13, 2012, 09:19 PM EDT

  THEY HIDE BEHIND THEIR RELIGION ! THEY ARE THEIR OWN WORST ENEMY !

• jetsnoone | Sep 13, 2012, 09:00 PM EDT

  Ah, Brendan, cop on to reality.......there were no gas chambers.

• GregShox | Sep 13, 2012, 08:33 PM EDT

  Bobby, what year was that?

• bobby | Sep 13, 2012, 08:13 PM EDT

  Camden street in Dublin is full of jewish people. They did come to Dublin. At this time, Ireland was in its biggest battle ever with england.

• GregShox | Sep 13, 2012, 08:11 PM EDT

  What small nation are you referring to that was kicked out of the Versailles negotiations in 1919?

• KevinKehoe | Sep 13, 2012, 07:49 PM EDT

  Mr. Shatter would want to study history proper, but I’m sure he knows the facts but refuses to acknowledge but goes on to condemns this Small Nation whom the Allied powers ,America, Britain & France kicked out of the negotiations at Versailles in 1919. By doing so abandoned us and left this Small Nation to fight her own battles, which we did. Yet he does not condemn Franklin D Roosevelt refusal to allow Jewish refuges into the US for a very long period time, before and during WW2. In 1933 six years before the war started prominent Zionist leaders in the US called for and got a world wide boycott of German goods. In 1934 boycotting of Jewish stores and business began in Germany and as we know it escalated from there after. When moderate Jews in the US got alarmed with what was going in Europe and pressed for help and a response, there so called leaders refused saying it would Aid there cause if more suffering were to accrue to the Jewish people. “ what the hell was there cause” Mr. Shatter.

• GregShox | Sep 13, 2012, 07:26 PM EDT

  And when many of those men came back to Ireland, many were vilified and oppressed for having joined the British forces. Let's not forget that while we're at it.

• brendan gillen | Sep 13, 2012, 07:21 PM EDT

  Mr. Shatter has a point. Ireland could have taken in 500 Jewish children from Paris, France. But an Irish minister vetoed the idea so those kids went to the gas chambers. But on the plus side, 165, 0000 Irish from the Republic went and served in the British Forces. Another 35.000 from N.I. and these were mostly Catholics. The Irish won 7 VCs and countless other awards and they did help in liberating europe. And its true too that Ireland was in a bad way due to the war and they were scared of being invaded both by the Germans and the British. We done our bit to help.

• rememberthe6mil | Sep 13, 2012, 06:56 PM EDT

  >Implying the holocaust happened

• GregShox | Sep 13, 2012, 06:50 PM EDT

  Robbiepdunn -- The Clanbrassil Street Jews immigrated in the 1870s, not the 1940s. We did stand by and ignore the Holocaust. It's a fact. Why can't we accept it?

• TayandCake | Sep 13, 2012, 06:42 PM EDT

  If this guys a zionist, does that mean hes not loyal to Ireland, if so then vote him away next time folks

• Robbiepdunn | Sep 13, 2012, 06:20 PM EDT

  I grew up in Clanbrassil st Dublin and the area was full of Jews from across Europe to say the Irish stood by is an untruth as it was people were just trying to survive Ireland was an economic basket case we were a backwater.

• GregShox | Sep 13, 2012, 04:12 PM EDT

  Slainte9 -- Two things. First, I'm Irish. My family have lived on this island as far back as records go. I was born here, I grew up here and I raised my family here. I won't have anyone telling me to define my nationality in terms of Catholicism. Are you clear on that? Good. Secondly, Shatter did not say that Ireland was to blame for the Holocaust. He said we didn't do enough, and he was right.

• DanOLoingsigh | Sep 13, 2012, 04:08 PM EDT

  shuvonn - The deeds you mention were AFTER the war...when the danger had passed...before and during they offered precious little help (you may think Dev wanted to know which side won before helping?)...sadly, no country comes out too well...Film actor/director Richard Attenborough spoke movingly about his family taking one of the Kindertransport children in a reunion recently...

• maceinri | Sep 13, 2012, 03:50 PM EDT

  I haven't read such drivel as slainte9's views for some time. (1) 'Ireland' is a partly Catholic country, that's all. Less than three quarters of the people of this island are nominally Catholic. The rest belong to mainly Protestant confessions; there also people of many other religions, including Muslims and Jews, and a growing number of agnostics and atheists. They are all equally Irish, including Alan Shatter. (2)Joe Stalin had many faults but the Holocaust was a German invention, aided and abetted by antisemites in France, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Ukraine and many other countries. 'Catholic Poland' was as antisemitic, in all probability, as Germany. There is one difference: 'Catholic Poland' is still disgustingly antisemitic, but Germany is not. I see no reason why Shatter would have any warm feelings about Poland's record. (3)the 'tiny little country' argument is a baseless nonsense. We are not talking about tens of thousands of Jewish immigrants, but about the chilling antisemitism of officials like Irish Ambassador Victor Bewley in Berlin and the deliberate blocking of applications from a handful of people for asylum in Ireland. I don't know what 'Red Diaper' babies are - we speak a different English in Ireland. But I do not that using the word 'tragedy' to describe a deliberately perpetrated act of mass murder is not simply intellectually dishonest: it's to be complicit in the act itself.

• ancavker | Sep 13, 2012, 03:18 PM EDT

  shuvonn: Good Post, but can you really call Dev a Yank, he returned to Ireland when he was 2 years of age!!!

• maceinri | Sep 13, 2012, 02:55 PM EDT

  @Hybernia: this is a classic 'blame the victim' argument and anyway ignores the specificity of the historical treatment of Jews in Christian countries, where for centuries they were blamed for allegedly crucifying Christ and were also the victims of stereotyping and of specific lies such as the so-called blood libel, recycled endlessly in such documents as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a tzarist fabrication from the end of the 19th century. The Jews of Europe were the 'visible other' at a time when there were relatively few 'others' in European countries. This fact, and the Christian origins of antisemitism, explain why other Semitic races were not so treated. But in any case they _are_ so treated today, as we can see with the rampant anti-Arab and islamophobic sentiments expressed in many European countries. It's a little coy to refer to 'expulsion' when the Holocaust was actually about wholesale murder. None of this is in any way to condone the policies of the State of Israel against Palestinian and other peoples. There are many Jews who are also opposed to such policies.

• GregShox | Sep 13, 2012, 02:43 PM EDT

  CitizenWhy -- The attack on Limerick's Jews was led by a Redemptorist priest, not the Limerick Soviet. A little bit of fact-checking wouldn't do any harm.

• seanaci | Sep 13, 2012, 02:41 PM EDT

  Shatter's remarks are cancelled out by his failure to alos mention actions against Iraq, Afghanistan and other communities tacitly supported by the government and people of Ireland that also resulted in mass murder of innocents. He could have chosen the high ground and condemmed all acts of the powerfully vile and honoured his elected position and his country of choice. Instead he comes across as just another pro-semetic whinger who puts his tribe first and country and the people he nominally represents a poor second.

• Sparklet | Sep 13, 2012, 01:58 PM EDT

  It's ludicrous to bring this up sixty years on. What's the point??

• hybernia | Sep 13, 2012, 01:54 PM EDT

  Mr.Shatner Should keep in mind that Iran is only doing what it is allowed to do under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which both Iran and the US (but not Israel) have signed. Under that treaty, the US not only recognizes Iran;s right to peaceful nuclear technology but under Article IV is obligated to help build Iran's power stations, which is a great way to make sure they do not contain secret bomb laboratories like the one now admitted to lie underneath Israel's reactor at Dimona. So, both in ignoring Article IV and in using the threat of military force to coerce Iran into surrendering their rights under the NNPT, it is the United States that is in violation of international law, and threatens to escalate the current wars into a truly global conflict, goaded into this lunacy by Israel, which has nuclear weapons, has NOT signed the NNPT, does NOT allow IAEA inspections, and was caught trying to sell a clandestine nuclear weapon (the very activity the NNPT is supposed to prevent) to South Africa! Also An Israeli professor and military historian hinted that Israel could avenge the holocaust by annihilating millions of Germans and other Europeans. Speaking during an interview which was published in Jerusalem, Professor Martin Van Crevel said Israel had the capability of hitting most European capitals with nuclear weapons. "We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets of our air force." But Iran is the danger to world peace, right?

• ancavker | Sep 13, 2012, 01:20 PM EDT

  Dunlinborn: Are you including yourself in that reference to culchie's

• maceinri | Sep 13, 2012, 01:18 PM EDT

  Ned, you are entitled to own views but not to your own facts. Your previous posting had 'The Churches Green Catechism had the opening paragraph', now it's moved to page 30. I don't doubt that something along the lines you say probably is in the Green cathechism - I haven't a copy handy. I am old enough to remember the pre-Vatican II references to the 'perfidious Jews' in Catholic Easter ceremonies.

• Seanmor | Sep 13, 2012, 01:14 PM EDT

  RetunnedY: Your statement reminds me of an article I read in the NYC "Jewish Weekly" around 1987, which told about large numbers of Jewish refugees who entered Spain without visas but were allowed to reside there with Franco's permission. The geneal public seem to be totally unaware of this because the left wing media continue to vilify Franco as a notoriously anti-Semintic tyrant. And the same media often depict de Valera in somewhat similar fashion. Regarding the generousity and hospitality of Dev's Irish state during the war, displaced German children, a hundred or more, found their way to Dublin in the later stages of the war and were eventually returned to their homeland around 1948. At that time a leading English newspaper had an article arout these young Germans, all of whom spoke only English when they went back to Germany. The kindness and compassion of Irish people to foreigners in need knows no bounds.

• CitizenWhy | Sep 13, 2012, 01:13 PM EDT

  my Irish relatives have always been deeply ashamed of what Ireland did in regard to the Jews. The oldest, including my parents (all now dead), saw the Limerick Soviet turn viciously anti-Semitic, and were shocked by this.

• Ned Daly | Sep 13, 2012, 01:05 PM EDT

  Maceinri you obviously had selective historical education regarding the history of the anti semitic Catholic Chruch the paragraph in question is well documented in that little old green catechism published in 1951 suggest you get a copy and read page 30 under Chapter V111 item # 96

• pilib04 | Sep 13, 2012, 12:58 PM EDT

  Another Fine Gael shot at Dev by his enemies. Big deal. It's all been said before and refuted. Shattner should be more concerned about the Blue Shirt parentage of his Fine Gael party.

• maceinri | Sep 13, 2012, 12:57 PM EDT

  DanOLoinsigh is totally right. Flanagan's antisemitic remarks in the Dáil (where the bees are, there is the honey; where the Jews are, there is the money) were disgraceful but clearly there was a constituency for them. Catholic antisemitism was rife. I don't know what 'Irish Holocaust' prairie is talking about. We may have had a divisive struggle against the British but there were no concentration camps, gas chambers and ovens.

• prairie | Sep 13, 2012, 12:51 PM EDT

  How many stood silent during the Irish Holocaust? Don't have time to read all comments, see some are giving the usual - let bygones be bygones rationale - when it comes to the IRISH - BUT not in other cases - e.g. the WWII holocausts of Hitler. Genocide is genocide - no matter WHEN, WHERE or WHO it happened to. NE OBLIVICARIS!!!!

• maceinri | Sep 13, 2012, 12:42 PM EDT

  This is certainly an entertaining thread, if only for the farcical nature of some comments. 'Culchies' are in denial about their past?!! Dublinborn: I was born in Europe's oldest maternity hospital, the Rotunda in Parnell Square. The last time I checked, that was Dublin. As a frequent visitor in the 1980s to Tibnin I never heard the single shilling story, although it's a good one, but I do wonder what Israeli 'civilians' of a generation long after the Dublin gas meters would have made of it; and I don't think there _were_ any Israeli civilians in South Lebanon, other than the outriders of a particularly nasty occupying army there. However I take your point about the Swastika laundry. The name was a tainted one after WW2. I wonder was the refusal to change it in any way related to the fact that it served a very conservative and toffee-nosed clientele, mainly in Dublin's Ballsbridge area where they were based. As you'll see from my earlier remarks Dublinborn we are on the same page - I think antisemitism was endemic in Ireland and hasn't gone away yet. Moreover it was a real problem in the senior ranks of the Department of Justice, which could and should have had a more open attitude once the facts of the Holocaust/Shoah were more generally known.

• Dublinborn | Sep 13, 2012, 12:21 PM EDT

  The only thing that is relevant is the truth we were all guilty of some form of institutional anti semitic acts I remember when the lads on guard duty at Tibnin in South Leb used to shout at the Israeli civvys and soldiers asking them for " single shillings" a reference to the old Dublin residential gas meters. Maceinri et al are all in denial as most culchies are about their past. As far as the Swastika laundry I remember that too the excuse that it was founded before 1912 did not wash after the holocaust

• Searlit | Sep 13, 2012, 12:19 PM EDT

  Granted, I don't live in Ireland, but this minister's attitude toward the Irish people who pay his salary is deplorable.

• GregShox | Sep 13, 2012, 12:17 PM EDT

  Mamaginnty -- It's ridiculous because it has absolutely nothing to do with the Nazi extermination of Jews. But as far as I can see, some people who comment here will anything into a rant about the oppression our ancestors experienced. I'm just waiting for someone to complain about Russians taking our jobs.

• joan1954 | Sep 13, 2012, 12:13 PM EDT

  While I understand where Alan Shatter is coming from seriously what could Ireland have done. Now let's get real here some Jews did make it to Ireland and were safe for the duration and later immigrated to either the US or Israel does that make it any harder to deal with? Ireland was poor, what jobs could be given to these immigrants? On the other side of the coin there were an additional 6 or 7 million other non jews murdered as well. And there is very little mentioned about those.

• YoungPike | Sep 13, 2012, 12:00 PM EDT

  I live and work in England and when I read all the anti-British sentiments on IC I get very protective of Old Blighty. The fact remains that Great Britain stood up to Nazi Germany when no-one else had the guts to. Instead of harping on about all the bad deeds committed by the British Empire, try listing all the great things Britain has contributed to the world. You'll find the good stuff far outweighs the bad!

• Ned Daly | Sep 13, 2012, 11:54 AM EDT

  Shatter is 100 % correct the following are a historical list of Anti Semitic / Nazi appeasements from 30s, 40,s 50s and 60s Irish Army wore the wehrmacht stahlhelm in 30s, Free State Army collaborated with the Germen abwehr during the war. De valara sent condolences to the Reichstag on the death of Hitler and Eva Braun, The swastika Laundry drove their trucks through Dublin up until the 70s. The Churches Green Catechism had the opening paragraph " Our Lord Jesus Christ put to death on the Cross by the Jews "

• Sparklet | Sep 13, 2012, 11:44 AM EDT

  Why do people like Matzkatz always try to justify wrongs by introducing another wrong? What the British did was shameful, but that was Victorian times. What Hitler did was much later, and by the same token, atrocities that are committed today might be considered even worse, because with time, should come enlightenment. The further mankind travels, the worse the crime, because it should learn. Anyway, it's what the Irish do today that matters. The past can't be changed.

• mamaginnty | Sep 13, 2012, 11:40 AM EDT

  Shatter should be kicked out of Ireland, to say such a thing when at the time no one new the extent of what the nazi's were doing. We did not stop jewish people from coming in, we also had german prisoners here. We are a small country so could not take in as many as Britain, France etc. He is all for Israel, now lets hear him shout about the genocide of irish men women and children. He twisted the facts about an irish music group being warned not to play in Israel. The group said they withdrew because it was too dangerous for them over there. Israel now is every bit as bad as what Germany was then. GregShox what is so ridiculous about speaking up against Britain for the genocide of thousands of Irish.

• slainte9 | Sep 13, 2012, 11:38 AM EDT

  In 1966, the Dublin Jewish community arranged the planting and dedication of the Éamon de Valera Forest in Israel, near Nazareth, in recognition of his consistent support for Ireland's Jews.

• Portia777 | Sep 13, 2012, 11:31 AM EDT

  The real truth is about to come to light. His story is written by the winners and oh how this story has been distorted.It was not only Jews who were exterminated by the Jesuit SS...it was all undesirables,gypsies, mentally deficient, etc. It was history repeating itself...Irish, USA, Canada, Australia, Germany......extermination camps were nothing new in this world, yet history leads people to believe this was a fact.We had our work houses, USA had its people exterminated, and children placed in camps with many deaths. All forced to give up their heritage- just like Ireland under Roman/British control. If the Irish did not take Jews, how did Bob Geldof's family etc get to stay here and how many others had their Jewish names changed to hide their identity? Surely the day of patriarchal religions is over. My Shatter is paid to deal with justice in Eire and he has to leave the Jewish notion of having his pound of flesh as well. Every day in Eire children are carted off and warehoused and abused in HSE care and who bothers to deal with that.?

• slainte9 | Sep 13, 2012, 11:25 AM EDT

  Returned Yank, Ireland is a very small country then and now. Only someone who hates the Irish would think it has some responsibility for what what happened during WWII. There are Jewish people who thanked DeValera for his actions during WWII.

• maceinri | Sep 13, 2012, 11:25 AM EDT

  SeamusMor's comments below prove my point that antisemitism is still alive in Ireland, or at least among some Irish. Has he never heard of the 1904 Limerick violence offered to the local Jewish community there or the widespread informal discrimination against Jews in Irish public and social life. 'What about' arguments are pointless here - the Jews were the major victims of the Nazi concentration camps, which is in no way to diminish the sufferings of others, including gays, Roma, political dissidents etc. But the explicitly racist, anti-semitic character of Nazi ideology is undeniable, even to someone who has not been in Auschwitz, as I was earlier this year. Jewish memories of all this need to be contrasted with a much less defensible Irish victimhood obsession.

• ancavker | Sep 13, 2012, 11:12 AM EDT

  Yes Mr. Shatter, lets topple Iran's President, of course it will be the Americans who will be expected to do it, and we risk WW III. Let us be clear many Iranians hate their government, but they love and will defend their country if attacked. America needs to disengae itself from that part of the world.

• ReturnedYank | Sep 13, 2012, 11:09 AM EDT

  Not many countries took in Jewish refugees "before" or "during" WWII. They were turned away by both the Americans and British. It was only after the War that a sense of guilt crept in, and it was only after the war that the concentration camps (a British invention, by the way) seriously began to influence public perceptions of the fight.

• maceinri | Sep 13, 2012, 11:09 AM EDT

  Some of the comments here are really dismaying. I am a supporter of Palestinian rights and profoundly disagree with most aspects of Israeli policy and with Mr Shatter's uncritical support for them. But this has _nothing_ to do with his comments about WW2, the Holocaust and Irish Government inaction. It's about time we admitted that antisemitism was widespread in Ireland (it hasn't gone away, you know) and that the Irish Government's policy during and after WW2 was shameful and immoral. I am not a supporter of Mr Shatter, his party or his current policies concerning immigration and asylum issues. Nevertheless I would argue that he has made some improvements compared to his predecessors, notably in the speeding up of citizenship applications. Seanmor is quite right about Herzog. I used to ask my students, back in the early 1990s, to name two world-level politicians who could speak Irish, one of them not very well? The answer was Herzog and Mary Robinson; and his Irish was much better than hers. One of his early jobs as a military censor was to monitor the letters sent back to Ireland by Jewish Irish olim, or immigrants to Israel, who were disappointed by conditions there. If they thought they'd be safe by voicing their dissatisfaction in Irish, they made a big mistake.

• SeamusMor | Sep 13, 2012, 11:07 AM EDT

  Ireland is the only country in Europe that never persecuted the Jews. The self absorbed Jewish Justice Minister presumes to judge the people of Ireland from the comfort and security of his position in the government of the Republic of Ireland without acknowledging the fact that his entire family would have been gassed if they had stayed where they came from. One hears a great deal from the Jews about the six million Jews who died in Nazi death camps without a word of mention about 6 or 7 million others killed who were gay, retarded, gypsy, or just anti-Nazi.

• MichaelJTully | Sep 13, 2012, 11:06 AM EDT

  Mr Shatter should brush up on his history, has he forgotten the economic war with brittan,and the aggressive nature of its rulers towards the new state. It would suit him better to look after his portfolio, and deal with the rising crime in our country, instead bring up red herring's to mask the his failures.

• lawyer4 | Sep 13, 2012, 11:04 AM EDT

  @Tooreenagrena: Mr Shatter may be unashamedly Zionist, but that does not take away from the accuracy of his statement. Ireland refused to accept Jewish refugees before, during and even after WWII, in full knowledge of the Holocaust. This is not an "anti-Irish comment", it is a fact, of which many Irish (including me) are ashamed.

• GregShox | Sep 13, 2012, 10:56 AM EDT

  People can get as personal as they want against Alan Shatter, but it doesn't change that fact that he's right about Ireland's record during and immediately after WWII. We did not take in Jewish refugees in any significant numbers, even though we knew that the Holocaust had taken place. It's irrelevant how many Irish characters were written into a movie, or how many Irishmen men joined the British army, since neither of these things have anything to do with how Ireland dealt with refugees. Not quite as irrelevant as the ridiculous outburst from Matkatz, though.

• Seanmor | Sep 13, 2012, 10:41 AM EDT

  Mr. Shatter's claims should be shattered by the facts. Even though the Irish Free State remained neutral during W.W.11, an estimated 40,000 Irishmen served in the British Army, including the Irish Guards who won 2 Victoria Crosses. In the film "Exodus" there is an Irishman who was very active in the Jewish cause. The Jews who lived in the independent Irish state were never in danger of capture by the Nazis. One of the first high ranking rabbis of the State of Israel came from Ireland. His son Cheim Herzog became President of Israel in the '80s. While he was in office, "The Jewish Weekly" (New York) once stated that "He spoke Gaelic well enough to put most Irish politicians to shame".

• EileenOfarrell | Sep 13, 2012, 10:34 AM EDT

  Sadly, many countries including America were slow to help the victims of the Holocaust. Raoul Wallenberg was a brave man who helped so many and ended up disappearing for his good deeds. Irena Sendler, a Christian, saved the lives of over 2000 Jewish children by smuggling them out of the Warwaw Ghetto.

• Locky | Sep 13, 2012, 10:29 AM EDT

  MINISTER FOR Justice Alan Shatter has deferred closure of Galway’s largest asylum-seeker accommodation centre until he has reviewed the reason for the decision. No transfers of up to 270 asylum seekers and their families will take place, pending the outcome of Mr Shatter’s review, his department has told The Irish Times. Last week the residents of the centre at Lisburn House, formerly the Ibis Hotel, were told of the closure after many of their children had already started a new school term.What's the difference between now and then Mr Shatter??

• Ray1Gordon | Sep 13, 2012, 09:39 AM EDT

  Why doesn't the Zionist, Israel-firster Shatter shut up or move to Israel and do everyone in Ireland a favor. How could this despicable individual be part of the Irish government? It is past time for him to go.