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St.Patrick was much more likely to be a slave trader rather than a slave says a new research survey by a Cambridge University professor. He was also a tax collector, fleeing for his life as the Roman Empire collapsed in Britain.
Dr Roy Flechner, research fellow at Cambridge University's Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Celtic (ASNC), said the accepted story of St Patrick was "likely to be fiction", according a report in the Irish Independent.
Flechner says Patrick’s family were tax collectors for the Romans, a very dangerous job during that era.
Patrick's father, Calpornius, was a Decurion, a Roman official responsible for tax collection in Wales.
Calpornius wanted out and used a Roman legal clause that allowed him to join the clergy and pass the job on to his son.
However, Patrick did not want the job, fearing for his life, and fled to Ireland.
"In the troubled era in which Patrick lived, which saw the demise and eventual collapse of Roman government in Britain in 410, discharging the obligations of a Decurion, especially tax collecting, would not only have been difficult but also very risky," Dr Flechner said.
"It may seem strange that a Christian cleric of Patrick's stature would own slaves, but in late antiquity and the early middle ages the church was a major slave owner -- early medieval Irish legal texts regulate the church's ownership of slaves.
"The traditional story that Patrick was kidnapped from Britain, forced to work as a slave, but managed to escape and reclaim his status, is likely to be fiction.
"The traditional legend was instigated by Patrick himself in the letters he wrote, because this is how he wanted to be remembered.
"Escaped slaves had no legal status and could be killed or recaptured by anyone. The probability Patrick managed to cross from his alleged place of captivity in western Ireland back to Britain undetected, is small. “
In his own writings, Patrick claimed to have been abducted and brought to Ireland.
But Flechner says St Patrick likely became a slave trader to set himself up in Ireland as there was no monetary economy there and slave trading was the main basis for the economy.
Flechner believes Patrick very likely bought slaves in England and then used them to trade when he moved to Ireland. The new version of Saint Patrick’s life is certainly controversial but Flechner says it is far more likely to be true than the legend.
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Switch to the desktop site to post a comment.IrelandNorth | Apr 12, 2012, 08:53 AM EDT
Would Patricius's Roman citizenship of the paradigm empire not have made him Roman rather than British? And was there really a "Britain" (great or otherwise?) before the Act of Settlement between England & Wales and Scotland, 1777? And lest we forget, it was an English Pope who granted Ireland to the English crown to Christianise (?), despite the inconvenient truth it not being his to grant to anyone. If anyone has difficulty with St. Patrick being called British, how about Britonian or Britvic?
MichaelDohnan | Mar 21, 2012, 04:25 PM EDT
When it comes to Ireland, nothing said or written by an academic in England can be trusted. The anti-Irish bias present in the English is the same as it ever was, and their denial of culpability or responsibility for their forefathers systematic invasion, occupation, and destruction of Ireland is as odious as ever.
dickmac | Mar 20, 2012, 10:11 PM EDT
Not very logical as St Patrick was supposedly a teenager at the time this happened in Ireland. There is actually no proper record of any part of his life prior to his becaming a priest. They actually do not even know where he was born. So they can say just about anything.
joeboy1 | Mar 19, 2012, 08:05 PM EDT
Leave it to the British to come up with this.
Greendays | Mar 19, 2012, 03:45 PM EDT
the way I heard it St.Patrick was a well connected young lad, with many relatives well placed in the monastic system, including St. Augustine. The idea of his "slavery" was an apprenticeship to the Druid Milcu, and he was a slave to the God he served.
Meanolgrouch | Mar 19, 2012, 01:34 AM EDT
SirPeter, rant all you want. It's better entertainment than any show on tv, and at least as edifying as what I see on our Public Broadcasting Stations. Wish I could set someone with your sharp and ready wit on some of our crazy teabaggers over here, like Limbaugh and his ilk. They wouldn't know what to do with you, man!
jacersagain | Mar 18, 2012, 11:26 PM EDT
Sorry...that should be 'Gregorian' calender, not 'Julian'.
jacersagain | Mar 18, 2012, 11:14 PM EDT
@ PatriciaMarya... Thank you for reading and acknowledging my long posts on St. Brigid. It is not unusual for any saintly person to be “demoted” by the Roman Catholic Church. St Patrick was 'demoted' as well a few years ago but that’s not surprising ‘cos there’s only 365 days in the (Pope) Julian calendar year, our present measure of time, and there just isn’t enough days in any calendar year to fit in all the saints over all time to each day, is there? @ FromPhoenix, I think you might be confusing the Irish saint, Brigid, with the Swedish saint, Birgid. My father’s friends always said that he was a living saint but I don’t see any day named after him as a saint. Even I can aver he was one - and he was just an extraordinary kind man, no different from any other extraordinarily kind man or woman. Today is March 19th, St. Joseph’s feast day, but I don’t see the Roman Catholic Church rushing to make it an obligatory day for us Catholics to attend Mass in his honour as guardian of Mary and Jesus. He musta been demoted sometime ago too... but he’s still a blooming great Saint in God’s eyes. Like all who stick with Jesus Christ, despite what has happened amongst the members of the Church He founded. I sometimes wonder what the original 70 Apostles would say to us all today. I think they would bollick me for my 70 sins.
sirpeter | Mar 18, 2012, 08:25 PM EDT
ciaradexy.I think you are associating these anti-English rants and thinking they are directed at the ordinary British people.Mostly it's articles on historic British policy in Ireland.So the rant is justified when it comes to a lot of our dealings in the past.There is a lot of anti-Irish idiots in England.That is a fact.I do a lot of business in London.Three weeks ago I went for a meal with six businessmen and I noticed this one English guy was a bit out of sorts while I was having a laugh with the rest.Eventually~And I could see it coming.He said with alot of venom in front of everyone.I'd never go to your Country.You lot are a bunch of bombers!!I said quick as a flash.Well!!You wouldn't get in with that shirt and tie anyway.LOL.His English buddies just broke down laughing and that was the end of him.Irish people always need to have a fast come-back ready.That Irish hatred and trying to pull the Irish down happens a lot in England.Ciaradexy just because you have a different experience which is good to be honest doesn't mean some Brits (I'd say quite alot) don't hold a certain amount of contempt because of the English media.Give Irish Americans a brake they are exposed to anti-Irish sh*t a lot more than an Irishman/woman living in Ireland.End of rant myself ;))
seanomelb | Mar 18, 2012, 07:02 PM EDT
I have put my tome on Patrick on the bookshelf between the Egyptian book of the dead and Greek mythology.
PiperMac52 | Mar 18, 2012, 05:38 PM EDT
I don't know where you people come up with these assertions regarding St. Bridget. As a Traditional Catholic and one who keeps abreast of church pronouncements I have never heard(even after a thorough computer search of catholic archives)anything on a so-called demotion. There are hundreds of catholic churches and parishes in the U.S. and around the globe named in her honor. Her feast day is still celebrated along with the many other recognized saints.
ciaradexy | Mar 18, 2012, 04:47 PM EDT
Well said Citizen69. Its just ridiculous how this article also states that research has been done and yet Americans on here just chose to shut their eyes and ears to research while shouting 'no no no no no' and anti English rants over and over again when the Irish just go,'I dont care' or 'oh, imagine that!' I reckon you lot would have been shocked at the good atmosphere in Dublin yesterday between the English and the Irish. Cinderfella, just for your information, you uneducated fool, Northern Ireland is not part of England.
DaithiSuibhne | Mar 18, 2012, 03:21 PM EDT
Sounds just like a Anglo-Saxon version of Irish history
citizen69 | Mar 18, 2012, 02:06 PM EDT
Note how IC put the word British in this headline for seemingly no other reason than to stoke-up the usual hatred amongst many Irish-Americans here. Why would the nationality of the professor matter?
PatriciaMarya | Mar 18, 2012, 01:54 PM EDT
jacersagain and FromPhoenix - thank you so very much for giving me more information on the life of this fascinating woman in Irish history, Brigid, saint. To find out that she was "demoted" in 1968 by the Catholic Church is overwhelming and puzzling to me. When I saw the woven crosses in a church in Ireland in February of 2010 and to learn this year that February is her month, I was touched. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. And to the poster who considered RTE's (by the way, RTE is Ireland's television network) series' contribution to "Secrets of the Stones" to be suspect is to insult the intelligence and research being done by Ireland's major scholars and universities. See the series first and then make your comments. Do remember: History is written by the winners; thus, not always containing all the truths, just what is useful for control purposes. It is good, sane and healthy to keep a bit of skepticism when we consider our role models.
peterson | Mar 18, 2012, 01:37 PM EDT
This must be one of "those" hard up for news days !!!
FromPhoenix | Mar 18, 2012, 12:52 PM EDT
After I posted, I did some searching online. It turns out that I was correct. In 1968, the Catholic Church removed official sainthood from St. Brigid of Ireland for several reasons. The church admitted that she just might be apochryphal and she wasn't 'properly' canonized a saint. Guess this is the church's way of a sideways admittance that she was indeed a goddess appropriated for purposes of conversion.
Stiofain | Mar 18, 2012, 11:56 AM EDT
FromPhoenix: Check with Patti Wigington/paganwiccanguide@about.com
FromPhoenix | Mar 18, 2012, 05:36 AM EDT
Some of the comments are quite interesting. My name happens to be Brigid and I was named after St. Brigid of Ireland (I believe there is a similarly named saint of Sweden). I was brought up with the story of her being a contemporary of St. Patrick. However, a number of years ago, if I am remembering correctly, the Catholic Church 'demoted' her because they were of the mind that she was more legend than fact. If anyone else remembers this or can check to see if she was actually "demoted" I would like to know that information. It seems to me that at the time, the Church was admitting that they had actually 'adopted' a mythical Brigid who was revered by the Irish before the coming of St. Patrick.
jacersagain | Mar 18, 2012, 05:15 AM EDT
(...more but hard and soft bits) And now come the lovely bits of info: When Brigids’s dad, a Druidic priest-man who refused to accept Christianity, was about to die, Brigid was by his bedside. The two of them argued over the Celtic Sun Gods, the sun itself and the Christian Trinity God... Brigid was in that state of mind, ready to tear her hair out, despairing to save her father from a false belief-and called for God to show her father what He, God, was like. It happened. God showed Himself to Brigid’s father and instantly he asked his daughter to baptise him in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Tradition in Ireland from the time of St. Brigid is that the cross of St. Brigid should hang over the door(s) into or out of your own home, primarily for that she will bless the people who enter your home as they enter it and bless them as they leave it. The fire that St. Brigid lit in her convent in Kildare centuries ago never died out until it was extinguished during the destructive reign of England’s King Henry the 8th. Years afterwards, after Henry was gone, the people of faith in Ireland re-lit the flame of St. Brigid in County Kildare. It has continued to burn since that day - still burns today and - guess what? - you can go and stand before it and see it for yourself; it’s there burning for you and me in Co. Kildare. I bet you never thought of St. Brigid or St. Patrick still thinking of us secular plebs in this day and age. That flame of St. Brigid is as alive as anybody reading this post. Thanks to PatriciaMarya for this opportunity to tell what we in Ireland know about St. Brigid. I pray that, from the singular grave of St Patrick, St. Brigid and of St. Colmcille in Downpatrick, we may all be united in one trinity of love. A shamrock’s lesson.
jacersagain | Mar 18, 2012, 05:15 AM EDT
(...more) Brigid converted many unbelievers, the kind of people who say “I couldn’t give a hoot about the Christian (now called Catholic or Universal) Church but - on one occasion - while trying to explain to ordinary people (like you and doubting me) at these fire-fests about the something special about Christ dying on a cross, she hadn’t a cross to show them, not even a symbol of the Cross on which Christ died to show them. The story goes that she angrily stormed off to a nearby wheat field, grabbed a few stalks and wove them with her own hands into the shape that is now world-famously known as St. Brigid’s Cross. So if you ever get a few pieces of straw and try to weave them into the shape that Brigid made at that time, you’ll understand Brigid’s anger and frustration that day but at least you will have woven, by your own hands, the same cross that Brigid wove in her desperate proof of love of Christ’s cross. (yep, there’s more...)
jacersagain | Mar 18, 2012, 05:13 AM EDT
(... more for PatriciaMarya) Anyway, Brigid’s dad, the Druid high priest was all into fire in springtime just as people all the all-over-the-world were at that time (like in Egypt and elsewhere), St. Brigid attended these Celtic/Druidic fire-laden fire-fest occasions with her dad, happily celebrating the heat of the spring-time sun after a cold Irish winter, spending most of her time chatting with her dad and mom (the one who gave her to the babyminder), their friends, cousins and whoever else was at these druidic celebrations of sun heat. Brigid must have been an extraordinary woman; she converted many Irish people to Christianity at those Druid feasts on sun-god loving days. All she met were touched by her in some special way. So we should wake up to that fact, and we all should wake up to the fact that Patriciamarya is also affected by St. Brigid – otherwise PatriciaMarya wouldn’t have asked her question here on ICentral (...more)
jacersagain | Mar 18, 2012, 05:10 AM EDT
(So here’s the more from jacersagain...) Somewhere along the line, as she grew up under this spell of being spared from fire, Brigid became a Christian and founded a monastery in County Kildare, dedicated to Christ and to prayer and to appreciation of all that is beautiful and against all that is evil. She was into fire in a big way, her dad was druid, he was big into fire like all druids; she lit and kept a fire going in her monastery’s grounds in Kildare. The people of the monastery were mostly of women who, like her, dedicated their lives to Christ but men who dedicated their lives to Christ were allowed to live and pray at the monastery as well with Brigid but, under her strict rules, they lived in separate quarters. She was eventually blessed to be an Abbess, the female equivalent of Bishop in the Irish Christian Church at that time, by a man (I forget his name right now) who was a contemporary of St. Patrick, the kind of fellow who followed St. Patrick around Ireland but was probably sick and tired of Patrick ringing his famous bell in every village he visited. (More for Patriciamarya)
jacersagain | Mar 18, 2012, 05:09 AM EDT
(..more) Anyways... The baby minder left the house on an errand, leaving baby Brigid in her straw cot in the turf-heated house on her own. The house caught fire while she was out, was completely destroyed and there was much neighbourly anguish about the new-born baby inside. However, when the burnt-out house was cooled down enough to be searched, they found the straw cot and the baby Brigid completely and miraculously alone untouched by the flames. You can imagine the scene at the house in Faughart - with the neighbours, the babyminder, her Druidic father and the rest of the family all there: How on earth, just how on earth...? Those who were Christians at the time said it was a miracle, that Brigid was blessed by God to be spared from fire and blessed by the shamrock Trinity of three Gods-in-One taught by St. Patrick to the High King of Ireland and his Druids at Tara, using a tiny plant growing out of the soil under their own feet, which her father would have heard about as he would have been a young druid at the time. Brigid must have been blessed in some special way, especially about fire, which is one reason of many reasons why many Irish people this day keep St. Brigid’s straw cross above a door into their homes (I have one too). (@ PatriciaMarya – there’s more from this jacers; hopefully it'll be worth hanging in to read). (More ...)
jacersagain | Mar 18, 2012, 05:08 AM EDT
@PatriciaMarya (what a lovely name!) Bejaysus I wish you hadn’t asked the question but since you did, I’ll bother me barmy to answer and I don’t know how to give you a complete answer. Brigid was the daughter of a Druidic high priest in the island of old Ireland, before there were such names like Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Anglo-Saxons and whatever you like to add from today’s terminology. There are many stories of St. Brigid. A very well known traditional story in County Louth in Ireland to this day has it that after she was born, she was given to what we call today a babyminder who lived in Faughart, County Louth, just a couple of miles from today’s town of Dundalk. In those days, burning turf from the bogs of Ireland kept a house warm. It’s funny peculiar in away when you watch turf burn in your house, even today. It tends to unexpectedly fall out of your fireplace. I digress! Anyways... (More ... )
cinderfella1 | Mar 18, 2012, 01:18 AM EDT
Fe Fi Fo Fum! I smell the blood and lies of an Englishman. Fe Fi Fo Fum! trying to Keep Northern Ireland part of Eng-land!
yates | Mar 17, 2012, 10:02 PM EDT
I agree with the comment that one must be very careful about believing every source who says something about a religious figure, and I would be especially careful about believing a British source without conducting independent investigation.
Ken from Dublin | Mar 17, 2012, 09:19 PM EDT
They can claim that Saint Nicholas aka Santa Claus was a slave trader and tax collector (who believes this utter bullshit anyway?;) but as far as the masses are concerned it aint ever gonna make one iota of difference to his benign and lovable image.
CitizenWhy | Mar 17, 2012, 08:55 PM EDT
There was a small Catholic bishopric in Ireland before St. Patrick. This small Christian community made little or no effort to convert the rest of the Irish. That task fell to St. Patrick.
PiperMac52 | Mar 17, 2012, 08:18 PM EDT
n 441 Patrick went to Rome to seek special approval of his ministry in Ireland, and the newly-elected Pope Leo the Great personally confirmed Patrick’s full adherence to the Catholic faith. This is significant since some today assert that Patrick was not Catholic. In this country, the challenge is mainly made by Irish Americans who have abandoned the Church for Protestantism and wish to co-opt Patrick and represent him as a non-Catholic figure. This is an impossible task, as Patrick was a Latin-speaking Roman noble, grandson of a Catholic priest, son of a minor official of the Roman empire, who had repeated private revelations, practiced penance, spent two decades as a monk, was ordained a priest and sent to serve on the papal mission to Ireland, was then ordained bishop by a papal representative, and had his fidelity to Catholic teaching specially confirmed by Pope Leo the Great (of whom the fathers of the Council of Chalcedon cried "Peter has spoken through Leo!"). He described himself as a Catholic, and a list of canons he drew up for the Irish church orders that any dispute not resolved on a local level was to be forwarded to Rome for decision. The two writings from his pen that survive—his Confession and Letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus—are both in Latin, and both attest to his Catholic faith. Any disgruntled claims that Patrick was not Catholic are just blarney....History of St. Patrick by James Atkins.
PiperMac52 | Mar 17, 2012, 08:12 PM EDT
For Patricia Marya: First off your mistake is to accept what PBS and the secular media portray as truth and history. As one who has studied theology and sacred scripture I cringe when I watch those programs which give a decidedly revisionist/ atheistic slant to Scripture and especially the Gospels. Including the Gnostic texts which have been deemed fraudulent (there were many in those days)by the early church councils. There are nihilistic attempts to re-interpret scripture verses to validate Homosexuality and various other sins. Know first from what perspective(and agenda)these programs derive.
shanfrina | Mar 17, 2012, 08:05 PM EDT
... Ouch!?! Happy-ST.-Patty's day from Bflo./Niagara in New York State. LOL!!!
starwatts | Mar 17, 2012, 07:45 PM EDT
I'm not sure why anyone really has to slam an old ancient story. The legend of St Patrick I'm sure has been embellished over the centuries, but who really cares how the Irish spin a tale, the fact that the Irish are God's chosen people and we can tell a story better than anyone is all that really matters here. For the other commenters here, St DeClan was in Ireland spreading the Good News of Jesus long before St Patrick. A more important questions was why is St Patrick's Cathedral in Ireland still in the hands of the protestants?
Ken from Dublin | Mar 17, 2012, 07:19 PM EDT
This is nothing less than pure anti-Christian apochrypha. Saint Patrick's legacy transcends his own mortal life, he is now simply known and appreciated for what he represents to all good Christians, so to Hell with this naysayer revisionist and his biased interpretations of so many ambiguous historical writings and literature about the great man.
Woodman | Mar 17, 2012, 06:58 PM EDT
And Patrick had an intern he used to bang on the side. It will all come out in a new tell all book. And that snake story? All lies. Patrick was no saint.
VonLiebenitz | Mar 17, 2012, 06:50 PM EDT
So he repented and joined the church?And then returned to Ireland to convert the rest of the Irish as a kind of guilty apology?
oaklongan | Mar 17, 2012, 06:40 PM EDT
Gratitude to Sophium's (Wisdom in Hellenic), Bishop Sean's and Proud Canadian's comments I'm saving. TRUTH. Others are written history read in my 'teens and 20's. Sad and Sobering Truths from Irish Hearts and Souls in the Experiences, Feelings and KNOWING of the Commenters, to this questionable 'scholarly??' article, need to be Acknowleged, Remembered and Honored.
seanomelb | Mar 17, 2012, 06:38 PM EDT
Dr.Flechner writes an interesting article and his findings are as valid as any other stories surrounding Patrick and easier to accept. The crap the church has been teaching for centuries is ridiculous E.G. the "snake" story or the use of the "shamrock" as a depiction of the trinity and people actually believe this bull.
PatriciaMarya | Mar 17, 2012, 06:27 PM EDT
For PiperMac52 - I learned this information in a series called "Secrets of the Stones" in a two parter that was done by RTE and shown here in the states on PBS and I watched it on September 3, 2011. The first part was on the Passage Tombs and that was where I learned that Newgrange was 500 years older than the Pyramids and thousands of years older than Stonehenge and it was when Mother Earth was worshipped in Ireland. (I was scribbling like crazy trying to notate the scholars and educationsl centers in Ireland that were presenting these facts.) The second half of the series was entitled "God's Architects" and it told of the monks' influences on the world stage and how it all happened peacefully. The Kerry Dig seems to have turned Ireland's history upside down: a John Sheehan(sp?) of Univ. College, Cork went in 2010 and discovered first Christian monastery in Ireland and found pottery from Antioch, Turkey from the 5th Century. Other scholars, one by the name of Richard Warner speaks of Tara in 343AD. They also say that Patrick never went to Tara and that was the Sacred Hill of Ireland. A Gavin Duffy, an expert in early Christian architecture, shows that Ireland went from the Pagan Circle to the Christian Rectangle. The Ireland of the 5th Century is an enigma because this change was done peacefully. This RTE production is easily found, I am sure. More than one sociologist and archeologist in Ireland, using scientific measurement tools and 3-D high density photography, are in this film series and it would be worth it to own. Hope that answers your question on how I researched the contention that Christianity was in Ireland before Patrick got there and before he became a saint.
oaklongan | Mar 17, 2012, 05:59 PM EDT
Grateful to Michael McNath and am saving what you wrote as FACT and for cheering up my day. Other commenters have sobering Truths from the Heart and Soul of Ireland...My mother made the best corn beef and cabbage...feel so sad today, don't know why. Will celebrate, anyway. God Bless.
dukmarshal@aol.com | Mar 17, 2012, 05:27 PM EDT
cillowen, you didn't mean 1066(battle of Hastings). I am sure you meant 1169.
PhlutiePhan | Mar 17, 2012, 05:27 PM EDT
Is that you Rahm or Michelle? How about getting off the back of the Irish! Jodi Kantor said it best. Irish Catholics are the backbone of the Democratic Party and they have to be compromised.
PiperMac52 | Mar 17, 2012, 05:21 PM EDT
On what history do base you assertion that Christianity was already in Ireland? Ireland was in fact a pagan country prior to Patrick's arrival. Christianity(Catholicism) was still in it's early stages and Missionaries like Patrick in Ireland. St.Columba established missionary churches on the Hebridean isles by every account were the first to establish Christianity in that area. Let's put aside the revisionism to satisfy personal desires.
PatriciaMarya | Mar 17, 2012, 05:12 PM EDT
I would love to know more about that blessed Goddess, Brigid. Was she a Druid Goddess first? Did the patriarchal religious have to recast her life? I love the fact that I was in Ireland my first time in the month of February which I find out two years later is St. Brigid's month. I also love that her crosses are made of straw. What a wonderful story must be in and around her. I would appreciate any references to reading material on her. I am happy for St. Padraic even though Christianity was already in Ireland before he got there and the country had no snakes to be gotten rid of in the first place; I just want to know more about the Holy Females of Ireland.
PiperMac52 | Mar 17, 2012, 04:54 PM EDT
Though there is nothing in recorded history to suggest that Patricius was a slave trader it does not surprise me that the British who invaded and oppressed catholic Ireland still carries the Cromwellian mentality. Truth is, no matter what Patrick did before his conversion after being taken as a slave(in his recorded writings), he more than made amends upon his conversion. This is nothing short of revisionist history and an attempt to defile this great man's memory.
ProudCanadian | Mar 17, 2012, 04:23 PM EDT
As much as I don't agree that he was a slave trader, even if he was there were plenty of rogues that God turned around,ie: St Paul who murdered many christians and David who was a scoundrel of the old testament so this from St Patrick doesn't say anything against him for me.
citizen69 | Mar 17, 2012, 04:18 PM EDT
Interesting story with some facts i hadn't known about those times. You always have to take any ancient story with little factual evidence to back it up with a inch of salt... but then there is little evidence that this new theory relates to Patrick either. As usual with IrishCentral though, you always get the bigots who will dismiss anything remotely connected to Britain.
jacersagain | Mar 17, 2012, 04:13 PM EDT
Good posts by Sophium and Bishop Sean. If St. Patrick were around today, he wouldn’t bother answering Dr. Roy’s allegations. Instead he’d say words from his own now-famous prayer “Against all Satan's spells and wiles, Against false words of heresy, Against the knowledge that defiles, Against the heart's idolatry, Against the wizard's evil craft, Against the death wound and the burning, The choking wave and the poisoned shaft (St. Patrick might've probably added: “like that Dr. Roy Fletcher, God help him!”) Protect me, Christ, till Thy returning.” I have worked with many English people; lived with them under the same roof and bejaysus I can tell you they are so unbelievably smug in themselves they can’t see the truth atall atall and throw spanners in the works to divide and conquer like Joker Fletcher tries to do, taking the pizz out on uz Irish. As if we'd fall for it...!!!
uc47163 | Mar 17, 2012, 03:55 PM EDT
With a last name of O'Neill (maiden), and a marriage name of O'Neil, I am sadden to think St. Patrick was taken into slavery by my "family". I LOVED being in Ireland this past September. Best vacation ever.
CaliforniaShamrock | Mar 17, 2012, 03:26 PM EDT
As the old tv ad said : Where is the beef? What sources is he citing beyond his own brain for these charges - and the timing as other commentators remark is a bit suspicious esp since he is a Brit!
aloistmartin | Mar 17, 2012, 02:45 PM EDT
Even If Patrick were a Myth; All Ireland would still Know and Revere Him as Catholic Saint ! Really cant say same for Ol Queen Bess; Whose Direct Maternal Ancestors have been traced to Early American Tobacco Plantations ?
jamthecat | Mar 17, 2012, 02:38 PM EDT
I love how he coaches all of his claims with words that mitigate them. The original story was "likely to be fiction", and "The probability" of the legend being true "is small." Just more gossip meant to denigrate someone who cannot defend himself. That anyone pays attention to this nonsense is amazing...and that anyone accepts it is breath-taking.
DonalCurtis | Mar 17, 2012, 01:50 PM EDT
Why shouldn't it be true? It sounds like something normal for his time and it doesn't change his zeal or holiness a bit. Just because turns out to be different from its legend doesn't compromise its integrity and importance. After all, Jesus, Joseph, Mary and the 12 Apostles were born Jews and many of them never left the Temple. That doesn't change their truth as Christian avatars!
MichaelMcGrath | Mar 17, 2012, 01:12 PM EDT
Patrick was not a slave owner, he was too young.Nor was he taken slave by Niall of the Nine Hostages directly.In fact Miliuc adopted Patrick as a son, a working son on the farm,he also trained a a Druid but he never made it. Thus he was a disappointment to Miliuc who cast him out. When he returned to Ireland he came as an emissary of the Church to negotiate with High King Laoire rights for the Church to preach in Ireland.
dcdief557 | Mar 17, 2012, 12:18 PM EDT
Typical British bullshit in time for St. Paddy Day...
BishopSean | Mar 17, 2012, 11:53 AM EDT
Even if true, that was Patrick the old man, not the New Creation in Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). Prof. Fletcher should write about John Newton, ex-con and ex-slave-ship captain. He came to Christ, became an Anglican priest, then persuaded young new convert William Wilburforce to stay in parliament and work to rid British Empire of slavery. Despite assaults, death threats to family, Wilburforce stayed the course and was successful. God can use "diamonds in the rough" for His work. Newton also wrote song "Amazing Grace."
EdMahoney | Mar 17, 2012, 11:39 AM EDT
These Brits are arseholes. It fact there so full of shet they all need two arseholes.
doyathink | Mar 17, 2012, 11:28 AM EDT
We're talking 1,500 years ago, folks, and not much written stuff survived in Europe during the Dark Ages, other than what the Irish monks copied. Unless Dr. Roy Fletcher has invented a time machine or unearthed a previously unknown circa 500 version of St. Patrick's life, it's all speculation. If a researcher is selective enough, he or she can publish work that "proves" the world is flat.
Larry777 | Mar 17, 2012, 11:13 AM EDT
Shalom, Its likely that Dr Roy Flechner is pulling the wool over the eyes of the Irish! The next thing he will tell us is that Patrick was a pedophile, because you find them in the Roman Catholic Church. Roy should take up writing fiction & let real historians write history!
knuckledragger | Mar 17, 2012, 11:12 AM EDT
I guess if he was a plagiarist, womanizer, and communist we could give him a national holiday and a statue in Washington DC....but since he wasn't a Third World immigrant to anywhere, I guess we'll have to take him down a peg...
MICHAELNLA | Mar 17, 2012, 11:11 AM EDT
HAPPY ST. PATRICK'S DAY
Sophium | Mar 17, 2012, 11:04 AM EDT
Here is a quote from Dr. Flechner from MSNBC: "Your property would have been hereditary and in the form of land, but if you had wanted to transport the value of the property, it is more likely you would have traded a more 'liquid asset', in this case slaves." Even he admits that the evidence is scant. Please focus more closely on the words "more likely" in that sentence. Dr. Flechner has not found new evidence at all. He is only reasoning to his conclusion without new evidence to support the conjecture. We must be careful here not to confuse an actual new *finding* and deconstructionist reasoning, which is all too prevalent in historical "scholarship" these days. "Scholars" know the game----invent a new "theory" and then you get some attention. Releasing this on the day before St. Patrick's Day seems to go along with the game of attention-getting. Sorry, Dr. Flechner, but you will need solid evidence before we fall for your revisionist game. After all, St. Patrick was the center of much attention during and right after his lifetime. Those who knew him best and who were closer to the data of his life have never spoken of this. Were they all duped? How disrespectful to think that so many could be so duped. Until Dr. Flecher addresses this rebuttal (many, many people knew of St. Patrick and his life and never once mentioned this issue of his, personally, owning slaves), we should deconstruct the doctor's deconstructionism.
MICHAELNLA | Mar 17, 2012, 10:52 AM EDT
And St. Paul was a murderer & persecutor of Christians & St. Mary Magdalene was a prostitute before converting to Christianity & subsequently canonized saints! "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" Matthew 7:3 Shezzzzzzzzzzz...with all the "baggage" the Brits have locked up in the closet, you'd think they would be more concerned about their own faults instead of others.
Eschetic | Mar 17, 2012, 10:47 AM EDT
If the value of St. Patrick's teachings are worth anything, showing the reality behind them can only enhance them. Americans so want to believe that they ended slavery with our Civil War that we forget that Britain did it as far back as 1803 after we parted ways - but LONG after St. Patrick reinvented himself and became the figure we revere today. We should revere the new, if more challenging revelations if we really care about Patrick and realize that myths are for teaching the very young. ADULTS need to deal with reality and history.
sirpeter | Mar 17, 2012, 10:43 AM EDT
Where is this new evidence?I don't see any.Due to the Irish raiding the west coast of Britain for slaves at the time makes it highly likely that what Saint Patrick wrote is true.We do have evidence that he was a man of strong principles and courage and must have been rather convincing when he spoke.He can't have been a coward either because he risked his life by undermining the powerful Druids.Dr Roy Flechner "evidence" appears to be a figment of his imagination based on the norms of an era.But we do know Saint Patrick was not a run of the mill kind of person.
HorsesInMdstrm | Mar 17, 2012, 10:37 AM EDT
Hot flash, fellow commenters. The man has done some research. Ye, who are so critical, have done what? Bought the story that the rcc wanted you to buy.
lifinhead | Mar 17, 2012, 10:24 AM EDT
Of course the Brits are going to do everything in their power, short of sending Cromwell's Ghost to wreak havoc on the Emerald Isle yet again, to defame an Irish Saint! Now we have to resort to using a university professor to set the record straight using the lens of Englishmen. PLEASE - if the Brits can't stay out of Irish business to this very day, then maybe the Ghost of Michael Collins can visit Buckingham Palace, too! ENOUGH OF THIS NONSENSE!
rmsunirish | Mar 17, 2012, 10:19 AM EDT
Do you want to believe the British spin on things? All they want to do is to tear down the Irish... since the Irish Monks saved the learning of civilization in the Monestaries in the Dark Ages, and the Brits didn't... Sorry, but I choose to believe what the Irish say about Patrick, not the British!!!
CitizenWhy | Mar 17, 2012, 09:49 AM EDT
And St. George was an arsonist, setting fires he attributed to dragons and then putting them out to become a big hero.
CitizenWhy | Mar 17, 2012, 09:48 AM EDT
Every version is a legend.
SeamusMor | Mar 17, 2012, 09:35 AM EDT
According to an Irish historian,Alfred the Great was a child molester,Richard the Lionhearted was a pedophile, Queen Victoria was a drug dealer, and Roy Fletchner is a chronic masturbater!
eileenkny | Mar 17, 2012, 09:29 AM EDT
With the truth buried in the mists of history, why would this professor want to tear down our Patrick? Besides, didn't Jesus welcome a tax collector into his small group of disciples? I know the truth in my heart, and that's enough for me.
like2tweet | Mar 17, 2012, 09:10 AM EDT
The Brtish think so badly of one of their own?
el rubio | Mar 17, 2012, 08:58 AM EDT
Perfidious Albion striketh again
JimmieM | Mar 17, 2012, 07:58 AM EDT
cambridge goons just like our harvard goons work day and night to tear down anything that looks noble any aspirations of humans to advance spiritually must be stopped.....why they even teach their daughter to lay in the gutter with....just anybody so they can have their State given right to abortion what is with these people who can't leave a good though in anyone's mind?