163 Comments

• supersurvivor77 | Jan 29, 2012, 07:21 PM EST

  CATHOLICABUSEUSRVIVORSNI.COM---- NO CHANGE OTHER THAN MORE DECIET BY THE PAGAN POPE and his unbiblical system , best change leave ireland,

• eiriamach | Sep 17, 2011, 01:42 PM EDT

  Jacersagain, WOW! I counted about 15 com boxes you've filled up on this page. Someone arriving here could not possibly figure out what the points in discussion were, and I do not have the energy to read through and try to pull us back to the issues, which were NOT, btw, "women priests." So I will simply update my closing remark about reform on the horizon. According to Rbt McClory's Sep. 15 article at the National Catholic Reporter online, "US priests form new national association," a new Association of U.S. priests has sprung up in emulation of the Association of Catholic Priests of Ireland. It began at "a retreat at Chicago's St. Mary of the Lake Seminary in Mundelein, Ill., in late August." The group "sent a letter to NY Archbishop Timothy Dolan, president of the U.S. bishops' conference, notifying him of the group's existence as a 'free association of priests provided by Canons 215, 278.1 and 299.'" The priests who organized it responded to a survey sent by peace-activist Fr. Bernard Survil: "the most favored objective called for an association dedicated to 'full implementation of the vision and teachings of the Second Vatican Council with special emphasis on the primacy of the individual conscience, the status and participation of all the baptized, and the task of establishing a church where all believers will be treated as equals.'" He who saves has touched the humanity of these men, and the Holy Spirit seems to be at work again--after a lengthy hiatus--in the RCC. If there are any laity remaining, perhaps we will see long-needed change. If not, RCC will survive only as a custodian of much of the world's great architecture, paintings and sculpture, manuscripts-- a veritable museum / library, but no longer a house of God.

• jacersagain | Sep 13, 2011, 07:27 PM EDT

  (...more) Now I readily admit I’m not a scholar of religious matters but at least even as an ordinary man I can see the simple veracity of the RCC’s stance on critical Jesus-laid-down aspects. I’d say even normal human common sense would tell you that the RCC, with its Christ-given spiritual remit, is incapable of assenting to present-day popular mores. It simply doesn’t have spiritual authority from Christ to do so and it always maintains that, despite what we as modern equality-minded humans might like. I think the Anglican Church at heart knows that too, knows that it failed to stand up to those within it who have caused such disagreements, like King Henry 8th, by pushing selfish human agenda - like acceptance of homosexuality and women priests - and is sadly realising those mistakes. We might ask "What would Jesus say?" - Well, we already know that through Sacred Tradition and our Sacred Bible and, if we are true Christian believers, we can’t change any of that. It is so pure it doesn’t need changing; so who are we, with our modern ‘scholarly’ know-it-all, media-fed, media-led ‘likes’, to challenge the eternity of the teachings and examples of the Son of God? Pope Benedict and his fellow ecumenists know better about that and he tries his best; God be with him in his ecumenical endeavours and radical changes for the good of Christ’s Church.

• jacersagain | Sep 13, 2011, 07:22 PM EDT

  @eiriamach - re Pope Benedict and ecumenism: my post of Aug 18, 07.52 contains complete indisputable historical facts, so again I am surprised you still see the Papacy as a barrier to ecumenism when the Pope has factually shown himself to be at the coalface of it on behalf of and in belief of the Sacred Heart of Jesus that he is so devoted to. I acknowledge yr points about the meetings between A/bishop Ramsey & Popes Paul VI and John Paul II - I remember them well, so high were the expectations that a breakthrough for re-unification was on the cards. It was a huge disappointment for me and billions of others when both churches said a few specific difficulties remained. Mind you, it wasn’t for lack of effort by the leaders and their specialist theologians searching for a way forward to the unity that both churches deserve. Some critical aspects you have correctly mentioned - homosexuality, women priests inter alia. (More...)

• jacersagain | Sep 13, 2011, 06:21 PM EDT

  Apologies to eiriamach and JuneAnnette – I’ve been away and too busy on other matters in recent weeks to engage w/ any ICentral posts or topics. Sorry too for this late response - clearly in my absence the topic has gone stale for now (perhaps thankfully!) But I would say to JA that my honest belief is that you are sadly brainwashed, with a mentor looking over your shoulder, instructing you on what to post (making you a stooge). Your posts are, to my mind, a waste of time because they are so superfluous and over-laden with quotes from various selective sources, always presented out of context to suit the agenda you and your mentor choose to pursue (e.g. hatred of the RCC, encouraging dissenters from it, just as Satan always does every second of every day and night). Sorry JA - and I really am - but yr posts don’t wash with me and I sincerely pray for the day that you wake up out of yr brainwashed state and find the same freedom I have found (re-discovered, actually) in the Sacraments of Christ through RCC, despite its human faults - and yes, they are many and thorny, even for me - but they are still completely insufficient for me to recognise the RCC as anything but the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Jesus founded and which He upholds against all attacks through His Eternal Presence in its Tabernacles and in those of us who eat His Body and drink His Blood. The intensity of the RCC’s spiritual Holiness, the intensity of its good priests work and superb devoted laity world-wide far outweigh its human faults and satanic attacks within and upon it from outside of it. I urge you to re-discover the truth of that. (PS – loved yr humorous LOVE LOVE post... made me have right good chuckle; unfortunately it once again showed how wrongly you portray things).

• jacersagain | Aug 27, 2011, 10:16 AM EDT

  Hmmm... my ecumenical subject posts didn't make it online. I don't have a copy of what I posted but what I will say now is that those who think the RCC is a stumbling block to full ecumenism should perhaps see that it cannot change what it doesn't have spiritual authority to change.

• jacersagain | Aug 26, 2011, 11:14 PM EDT

  (...more) One small note: I learned that I was mistaken in believing Mary was the Apostle of the Apostles; she was appointed by Christ to be an Apostle TO the Apostles on that famous Resurrection morning. In other words, she was a messenger. It is easy to forget that that is what ‘Apostle’ means – a messenger. Such is what all the original Apostles were appointed to be – messengers of Christ’s Word. They did that so successfully in their time that now the twelve are numbered over a billion today. Who are we of today, us smarty-pants, to challenge their delivery of the message, their ministry and the success of their successors through the centuries since? – All of it happened without the interference of a woman for God’s sake. Did Christ’s mother Mary interfere? No, she didn’t. Jesus’ women tended to His and His ministers’ needs; they did not clamour for equality with His chosen few men. They had more sense and respect than women of today, I think. I will now, under the comfort of Jesus’ love for you, eiriamach, for His love forgiving love and JuneAnnette and her mentor, for and everybody and with the strength of the guidance of His Holy Spirit, unafraid and without , pick up on yr ecumenical topic points... (I think I will do this woefully...)

• jacersagain | Aug 26, 2011, 11:07 PM EDT

  (...more) One may argue that Christ did not appoint women to be ministers of His Word because the social mores of His time didn’t allow it (I don’t think any priests of the time, like Pharisees, were women) but that times and society have changed since and so should the modern Church’s stance on this issue. There was a time I would have agreed women priests, believing in Mary Magdalene to be the ‘Apostle of the Apostles’... possibly even the first real Christian ‘pope’ instead of it being Peter. My thinking was: If Mary was the Apostle of the Apostles, then Mary, a woman, might well have been the perfect example that the RCC might have chosen for a reason to allow women to be ordained as priests. However, I visited the South of France, where, not far from Marseilles, Mary Magdalene lived out the rest of her life as a hermit in an area now called Sainte Baume and learned much more about her there amongst the locals than anything the RCC has given me. When I went there, I expected something unusual but I came away shocked and beautifully awed. I encourage everyone, esp you, eiriamach, with your thirst for knowledge, to travel to hills of Sainte Baume if you can, to see and learn for yourself what I witnessed and learned. The experience left me in no doubt as to why I now see the RCC’s position on women priests for what it is. As I now see the RCC’s stance, I cannot fault it. (more...)

• jacersagain | Aug 26, 2011, 11:06 PM EDT

  More... In short, women were not called upon by Jesus to be ministers of His Church. On this historical account, the Church feels it does not have the authority to do what Jesus didn’t do. I think it’s pointless to argue a case for women priests when the Church feels so bereft of authority from Christ on the matter. Or, one might ask, as I did for a long time, is it?? (More...)

• jacersagain | Aug 26, 2011, 10:59 PM EDT

  Specifically @ eiriamach – returning to my promise to address what I think are some of the reforms that you see as desirable in the RCC – the issues of women priests, and, thebneed to accept the demands of non-Catholic churches engaged with it in ecumenical discussions. On women priests, the RCC and its sister Eastern Orthodox Churches say they do not have authority from Jesus Christ to anoint women with the Sacrament of Holy Orders. One of the prime reasons that the Church gives as sample proof of that is that during Christ’s time and mission on what we call Earth, He never once asked His Holy Mother, Mary, to be one of his chosen ministers. Neither did He ask any of the other women that He had a lot of hugging close contact with, such as Susanna, Sarah, Joanna, Salome and others, or the most famously known one, Mary Magdalene, to be such.(More...)

• jacersagain | Aug 25, 2011, 07:15 PM EDT

  (...more for eiriamach) I have said that I am quite happy, after years of questioning on aspects of most world religions and beliefs, of many interpretations of morals in world-wide human people’s lives and after many travel experiences, to accept the teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and of its member Churches and their common Apostolic mission on behalf of Jesus Christ as Christ’s way for me, and most importantly everybody under guidance of God's Holy Spirit. That is not to say that I am not a sinner, or that I fully accept some of the Churches pronouncements; I have enough working brain cells in me own Irish, Dublin-bred head to decide when some of them and, yes, some of its tactics, are dodgy – artfully diplomatically so - and have said so. Despite all I’ve gone through, I have ultimately recognised and forthrightly said below, even bellowed, that the RCC’s human failings are not ever grounds for any Catholic to desert the RCC, or for any single person to dismiss it, or be free to not join it. It is, after all, Christ’s Church. >>> I am quite satisfied that Jesus Christ is at the core of its work, despite Satan’s persistant attacking presence and his wasteful attacks within and outside of it (including on me and you). I don’t ever have to feel that I need to go and research and quote prominent anti-Catholic or reserved Catholic scholars writings, or misrepresentative passages from the Bible, or other know-it-all writers and journalists of any anti-Catholic hue to reinforce my ICentral posts. They fail of teir own accord.nJesus Christ is much well able to defend the Church He founded than I am. Yet, I write only to needlessly defend unjustifiable attacks against the Catholic Church, as would be the response of any defeated, deflated anti-Catholic person as I once was, as any pretender of anti-Catholicism will find, just as like any ordinary "jacers" found.

• jacersagain | Aug 25, 2011, 06:53 PM EDT

  (...more for eiraimach) I have posted below about Pope Benedict’s historical efforts to engage in dialogue with those of non-Catholic faiths and his own determined purpose to do so under his publically declared dedication to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I have said, under this topic above by Antoinette Kelly that I would welcome changes to the Irish Catholic Church’s administrative structure and the way it insufficiently or incorrectly manages its Christian mission and the rightfully justifiable attacks on it. I have consistently pointed out that I am an ordinary man, a Dublin man, a married family man now a widower, one who has travelled, has some appreciable level of education, a man with, thankfully, a job in these times of economic recession and one who has never claimed to be a scholar or a person with time on his hands to delve into stuff that can be argued over from now ‘til Kingdom come in semantic or other ways , apart from banter (and it was only banter), about Amazonian Christian ‘wimmen’... (More...)

• jacersagain | Aug 25, 2011, 06:47 PM EDT

  @ eiriamach – Forgive late reply, have been too busy on other matters to engage further on this or any other ICentral topic. I’m sure you'll recognise, with yr gr8t intelligence and forte for research that I am most disappointed that you have twisted my responses to allege that I have posted ‘ad hominem’ responses to JuneAnnette’s posts or that I have ignored certain issues, particularly a subject close to your heart about church reform and JA's about child abuse by both ordained and lay members of various churches, Christian and non-Christian, which JA constantly brings up under any topic regarding the Roman Catholic Church when it is not the topic under discussion (I wonder how JA might respond if she, or her mind-fuddling mentor, saw posts by Non-Irish members of all of the faiths based around Abraham on ICentral addressing her mentor’s pathetic, despairingly argued posts). If you read through my posts again, hopefully you will see they are not based on fallacies or any kind of invalid argument. I will hopefully address the points that I think you call on me to address has to do with reform of the Catholic Church as you see it as from a woman’s point of view (more on that, for you, eiriamach, in a very serious vein, hopefully later. Right now, more on yr allegations under Antoinette’s article above...)

• eiriamach | Aug 22, 2011, 03:40 PM EDT

  It's a pity that you see an invitation to discussion or debate as an attack, Jacers. You have not addressed the issue; instead you've used ad hominem arguments against JuneAnnette. I conclude that you are content to be a subject of absolute papal power, are not a friend to democratic governance, remain hostile to non-Roman Christians, and prefer not to do your own thinking on any matter having to do with church governance, morality, or the life of the spirit. I hope you can come to grips with the coming upheaval, for it is indeed coming. Back in the 1920s, one of my favorite authors described the kind of degeneration and transformation in religion that we are witnessing in Ireland now: "There is a time of maturing, when the true element of the human spirit, suppressed and buried, comes to hidden readiness so urgent and so tense that it awaits only a touch from Him who touches in order to burst forth. The revelation that then makes its appearance seizes in the totality of its constitution the whole elemental stuff that is thus prepared, melts it down, and produces in it a form that is a new form of God in the world." It would be good to be ready for this process and at least not to get in the way of it and maybe even to help welcome it as it unfolds, however chaotic and rebellious it might seem at present.

• jacersagain | Aug 21, 2011, 08:18 PM EDT

  @eiriamach... sorry but I decline yr invitation. I have already posted undefeatable responses to yr many other "allegator in denial" posts. >>> Does it ever hit home to anybody out there that no one rushed to jacer’s aid when he was attacked by Christian Amazonian wimmen?- when he was pleading for help?? It must be clearly deduced therefore that jacers doesn’t need defending. Lemme tell yez, that frightens jacer...

• JuneAnnette | Aug 20, 2011, 01:32 PM EDT

  Perhaps unquestioning Roman Catholics will heed the advice of one of their own . . continued**Consequently this massive institution seeks above all to preserve itself. Sexual abuse of children or anyone by members of the sacred elite is potentially disastrous for the image, credibility and hence the power of the Church. The bishops really believe that they are essential to the existence of the Church. Therefore protecting the hierarchy is essential and believed to be God’s will. The popes and the bishops did not have to conspire to keep sexual abuse by clergy buried as deeply as possible. The secretive response is in the blood of the bishops. It is rooted in the fundamental urge to survive. Disruption and disintegration of the monarchical structures of the Church means the end of the system of power and control as we know it. This poses an unthinkable threat to the clergy and to the clerical world. The threat is personal because this world, this monarchical institution, this magical theological support system is the past, present and future of the bishops. It is their source of identity. To change or destroy it is a threat to the very being of the clerics who feed off of it."****Fr Thomas Patrick Doyle OP, a US Dominican priest with a doctorate in canon law, is a renowned and outspoken advocate for church abuse victims.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 20, 2011, 01:30 PM EDT

  Perhaps unquestioning Roman Catholics will heed the advice of one of their own . . continued**If all of these teachings were true, would there be a need for all of the secrecy? If these teachings were true, especially about the “Christ-like” nature of priests and bishops, would there be such widespread corruption, dishonesty and abuse found among clerics at every level? If all of these things were true!The problem is that there is no authentic historical evidence that any of it is true. The various titles, roles and offices attributed to popes, bishops and priests are not products of divine revelation but of human invention, often as a response and reaction to serious external threats to the power and wealth of the clerical aristocracy. For example, and it’s a good example, Papal Infallibility was literally invented by Pope Pius IX and forced through the First Vatican Council...for political reasons. The pope’s kingdom, the Papal States, was threatened with dissolution by the Italian social upheaval at the time. Likewise the title “Vicar of Christ” was part of a conscious program of a medieval pope to fortify papal power. This title has had a long and complex and by no means consistent history. It was not applied to the Papacy until the 13th century when Pope Innocent III took it to enhance his overall program of actively concentrating just about all power in the Church in the papacy.***Fr Thomas Patrick Doyle OP, a US Dominican priest with a doctorate in canon law, is a renowned and outspoken advocate for church abuse victims.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 20, 2011, 01:29 PM EDT

  Perhaps unquestioning Roman Catholics will heed the advice of one of their own . . continued**This teaching is the foundation for the clerical culture that runs the Church. Clericalism is the belief that clerics (deacons, priests and bishops) are superior to lay persons and are rightfully entitled to deference, unquestioned respect and exemption from many of the obligations born by most lay people. This clerical world is the home of the men who make up the Church power structure. The Church teaches that this structure is the church. To be a Catholic, one must believe totally in the teachings about the nature of the church strictures and the sacredness of the Church’s clerical ministers.***Fr Thomas Patrick Doyle OP, a US Dominican priest with a doctorate in canon law, is a renowned and outspoken advocate for church abuse victims.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 20, 2011, 01:27 PM EDT

  Perhaps unquestioning Roman Catholics will heed the advice of one of their own***Thomas Patrick Doyle's reflections on papal rule :Article: The secret secret of the Vatican / Tom Doyle – My Comments on Andrew Brown’s Blog /July 23, 2010 /"The Church is a visible institution. The Church teaches as official dogma that the Church as we know it, that is, a hierarchical structure that is totally run by celibate male clerics (mostly bishops), was instituted by Jesus Himself.  The Church teaches that the pope is the representative (Vicar) of Christ on earth. It teaches that Christ founded His church and left it in the control of the twelve apostles and explicitly willed that these apostles pass this power down to their successors. Consequently the official teaching is that the visible church is run by men who have been explicitly chosen by the Supreme Being. Furthermore the Church teaches that priests are fundamentally different than other humans.  They are, in the words of John Paul II, uniquely configured to Christ. Catholics are taught to believe that priests are special. They represent Jesus Christ. They have very special spiritual powers. Their intercession is essential for anyone who wishes to make it to heaven in the next life.***Fr Thomas Patrick Doyle OP, a US Dominican priest with a doctorate in canon law, is a renowned and outspoken advocate for church abuse victims.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 20, 2011, 01:25 PM EDT

  Perhaps unquestioning Roman Catholics will heed the advice of one of their own***Thomas Patrick Doyle's reflections on papal rule :Article: The secret secret of the Vatican / Tom Doyle – My Comments on Andrew Brown’s Blog /July 23, 2010 / Link: http://www.richardsipe.com/Doyle/2010/2010-07-25.htm"The Church is a visible institution. The Church teaches as official dogma that the Church as we know it, that is, a hierarchical structure that is totally run by celibate male clerics (mostly bishops), was instituted by Jesus Himself.  The Church teaches that the pope is the representative (Vicar) of Christ on earth. It teaches that Christ founded His church and left it in the control of the twelve apostles and explicitly willed that these apostles pass this power down to their successors. Consequently the official teaching is that the visible church is run by men who have been explicitly chosen by the Supreme Being. Furthermore the Church teaches that priests are fundamentally different than other humans.  They are, in the words of John Paul II, uniquely configured to Christ. Catholics are taught to believe that priests are special.  They represent Jesus Christ. They have very special spiritual powers. Their intercession is essential for anyone who wishes to make it to heaven in the next life.****Fr Thomas Patrick Doyle OP, a US Dominican priest with a doctorate in canon law, is a renowned and outspoken advocate for church abuse victims.

• eiriamach | Aug 20, 2011, 01:02 PM EDT

  To sum up? As an American, I look to Thomas Jefferson, who drew on the philosophy of his age: the legitimacy, or the right to command obedience, of any governing body depends upon "the consent of the governed." The laity of the 21st century are not likely to trust a monarchical form of government that makes laws and binding policy in secret, nor are half of them likely to trust all-male decision making. Vatican II documents support a de-centralization of power that allocates decisions to bishops and calls for efforts to achieve consensus between the people and their bishops. It recognizes the ministry of all lay persons. It places RCC among Christian denominations and respects the sacramental grace and divine inspiration that animate the others. It rebukes ecclesiastical ambitions that seek to triumph over other sects: Its founding concern is ecumenism. I enjoy reading Jacer's posts even though he often does not address the point under discussion. I've tried to summarize the common thread of the last few days' posts, and I invite Jacers to reply specifically. JuneAnnette's quotations from "Unless the Catholic hierarchy examines its obsession with power it cannot reform itself" address the same point in Fr. Doyle's words: "What is it about this culture that justifies [placing] image and clerical security far above the welfare of innocent children? Why does the 'people of God' ... need to function like a monarchy with an attendant clerical aristocracy? Why the narcissistic obsession with power, secrecy and control? Until the bishops and priests look deeply into this ... pathology, the outrageous behaviour exposed in the [Cloyne] report will be part of a shameful history."

• JuneAnnette | Aug 20, 2011, 11:28 AM EDT

  Perhaps unquestioning Roman Catholics will heed the advice of one of their own . . continued ***OPINION: Unless the Catholic hierarchy examines its obsession with power it cannot reform itself / Date: Sat, Jul 16, 2011 / Source: Irish Times / Excerpt:Marie Collins, in her recent interview on RTÉ’s Prime Time , spoke the truth when she said that the promises and policies that have streamed from the bishops mean nothing. The report clearly reflects this sad reality: “It seems to the Commission that continuing external scrutiny is required.” Outside monitoring with serious consequences for neglect, and mandatory reporting by all clergy with possible jail time as a consequence for failure, are necessary responses.We must demand answers to even more radical questions. What is it about this culture that justifies living in an alternate reality that places image and clerical security far above the welfare of innocent children? Why does the “people of God”, as Vatican II described the church, need to function like a monarchy with an attendant clerical aristocracy? Why the narcissistic obsession with power, secrecy and control? Until the bishops and priests look deeply into this culture and acknowledge its pathology, the outrageous behaviour exposed in the report will be part of a shameful history.***Fr Thomas Patrick Doyle OP, a US Dominican priest with a doctorate in canon law, is a renowned and outspoken advocate for church abuse victims.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 20, 2011, 11:27 AM EDT

  Perhaps unquestioning Roman Catholics will heed the advice of one of their own . . continued ***OPINION: Unless the Catholic hierarchy examines its obsession with power it cannot reform itself / Date: Sat, Jul 16, 2011 / Source: Irish Times / Excerpt: The clerical culture that cannot comprehend the depth of evil and destruction it has enabled has failed to internalise the reality that in this 21st century sacrificing the welfare of innocent children to maintain the image and power of an ecclesiastical aristocracy is a disgrace that will be the catalyst for an inevitable and profound change in the nature of the institutional church. The rapid disintegration of the absolute control of the Irish hierarchy over Irish society is the result not of the lack of faith of the Irish people, as some in ecclesiastical leadership would like to believe, but in the lack of fidelity of the leadership to the people whom they have sworn to serve. WORSE STILL WAS the use of pastoral care as a justification for protecting the accused priests at the expense of justice for the victims. The report saw the misuse of the pastoral concept as a “scheme whereby counselling was provided to the complainant in a manner which was hoped would not attract any legal liability to the diocese”.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 20, 2011, 11:26 AM EDT

  Perhaps unquestioning Roman Catholics will heed the advice of one of their own***OPINION: Unless the Catholic hierarchy examines its obsession with power it cannot reform itself / Date: Sat, Jul 16, 2011 / Source: Irish Times / Excerpt: Cardinal Seán Brady said that “grave errors of judgment were made and serious failures of leadership occurred”. Bishop John Magee admitted that the diocese “did not fully implement the procedures set out in church protocols”. What happened in Cloyne and in Ferns, Dublin, and the institutions cannot be dignified as “grave errors of judgment” or incomplete implementation of church protocols. The systemic sacrifice of the emotional, psychological and spiritual lives of innocent children for the sake of the image and power of the hierarchy was no error. The Vatican response has been the defence of the hierarchy and the scandalous lack of concern for the victims. There are the expected expressions of regret, sorrow and promise of prayers which serve only to confuse and even anger the victims and are a very thin cover for the consistent pattern of self-serving support and protection of the bishops.***Fr Thomas Patrick Doyle OP, a US Dominican priest with a doctorate in canon law, is a renowned and outspoken advocate for church abuse victims.

• eiriamach | Aug 19, 2011, 10:32 PM EDT

  I just discovered a new web site called "Misguided Missal [dot] com," which provides specific details that support the two points in my last reply to Jacers: 1) RCC withdrew from ecumenical discussions with other Christian denominations and 2) RCC refused to allow other Christian denominations any role in its recent liturgical revisions. A sample from "misguided Missal": "we are deeply concerned with Rome’s retreat from the principles and theology of the Second Vatican Council. --we believe that the rites emanating from Vatican II have deepened people’s understanding of the celebration of the Eucharist and appreciation of who Christ is and who we are each called to become. --we are deeply concerned with Rome’s need to silence those who express their concerns and with our bishops’ docile compliance. --we believe we should be able to expect more from our spiritual leaders who no longer speak for us or with us but simply to us. In the Documents of Vatican II, Lumen Gentium states “Like all Christians, the laity have the right to receive in abundance the help of the spiritual goods of the Church, especially that of the word of God and the sacraments from the pastors. To the latter the laity should disclose their needs and desires with that liberty and confidence which befits children of God.... By reason of the knowledge, competence or pre-eminence which they have, the laity are empowered – indeed sometimes obliged – to manifest their opinion on those things which pertain to the good of the Church.” Lumen Gentium, #37."

• jacersagain | Aug 19, 2011, 08:30 PM EDT

  (... more) On that point, I would nominate the words of another Beatles’ song for JA – ‘She’s Leaving Home’. I don’t need to post the words of it here as JA wastefully did (twice... I repeat feranbejacerssake). I suggest she listens again and again and again to that song in her study’s collection (oh yes, she does seemingly have a collection of Beatles’ stuff in her secret hiding place, not far from her Bible) and remember, in a quiet moment that her ICentral pal jacers thinks that song depicts JA’s leaving the home of True Christianity after all the years it has been telling her, and many other people, of Christ’s message and His sacrificial passion for Love and Unity of all the people that God created. It’s ssuch a so-sad but true a song. Yet hope and trust constantly springs eternal in the minds of the parent Church of Christ. Please God, one day, if it’s on her last day on our earth, with her last breath even, JuneAnnette will come home to her parent Catholic Church.

• jacersagain | Aug 19, 2011, 08:12 PM EDT

  (...more) What I posted was that “I can only deduce (from her posts) that hate (of the Catholic Church) fills her mind instead of the Love of Christ”. JA would appear to be incapable of changing that deduction but I wait and pray in hope for her to prove me humbly wrong, but especially that she finds her way to once again be in communion with the original parent church that Christ founded, of which the present Pope is the 265th direct-line successor of Peter, the man entrusted by our Christ to be the rock on which His Church stands, never to fall down whatever attacks it suffers like Jesus did, from misguided people like JA and her teacher-deceiver(s). >>> A classic yet simple example of her deceptive allegations is her betting that my favourite tune is the Beatles’ song of which words she posted, not once, but twice... thus doubly posting another deceptive lie :-))))) (more...)

• jacersagain | Aug 19, 2011, 08:07 PM EDT

  Just don’t get me going!!! Jaysus! Are there any good men out there to help and support poor jacers in ‘dealing’ w/ these two Amazonian Christian wimmen??? (Just Kidding!) If JA and eiriamach would actually “éirigh amach as” (for JA’s and others’ info, that's gaelic for "rise out of”) their wavering yet solidly apparent weak entrenched positions and stand back to look again at what they’ve posted in their diversionary posts on this discussion about radical reforms of the Irish Catholic Church that Antoinette’s article above prompted, they would see the distortions from truth within them. Re JA’s Boo-hoo post, all I will say is “There, there now, Love, don’t be beside your imaginary doppelgänger self! jacers is here beside you, offering a comforting arm around your shoulder to bring you back to reality. Here’s a hanky, Love, I didn’t mean for my comments to be seen as insults - just factual conclusions any sensible gentleman with a handkerchief would come to on foot of your incredibly disparaging (whooo! - I almost typed ‘bitchy’) comments”. >> In fact, when JA’s posts first appeared on ICentral, I made a heartfelt plea for someone to wake her up to what is clearly a brain-washed state of mind, one that she has been ensnared in, such was (and continues to be) my heartfelt concern for her. JA completely misrepresents my post in positing that I find her posts lacking of Christian love... I said I find them to be a waste of time (actually I meant ‘waste of HER time’, not mine; I do read her posts). (More...)

• eiriamach | Aug 19, 2011, 04:18 PM EDT

  In other words, the only way we have of controlling hell-bent, death-driven absolute power is to subject it to the will of the people, or democratic decision procedures. Gearoid4 and Jacers will reject this suggestion as "secular," "worldly," etc., but that rejection only indicates their lack of faith in the Christian sensus fidelium, which can claim in truth to be guided by the Holy Spirit!

• eiriamach | Aug 19, 2011, 04:08 PM EDT

  JuneAnnette, you have described the concept that most Christians have of 'unity.' The RCC, however, rejects this concept and claims to be the "one-and-only true" church of Christ. Under the banner of the "One" true apostolic church, it has exerted great political power and in multifarious ways shaped and mis-shaped Western cultures. With its current ultra-conservative politics, it is doing serious harm to millions, not only the victims of clerical sex abuse. Its triumphalist approach began to change in the mid-1960s with the launch of Vatican II. Until recently, many Christians, for example most Anglicans, would have been content for the pope to be 'primus inter pares' or 'first among equals,' the one designated to speak the consensus of Christian beliefs for all, provided that he refrained from going beyond the consensus, or 'sensum fidelium.' As John Paul II said, also common sense, "The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it wins over the mind with both gentleness and power." This is very far from the current papal imperialism that presumes to command belief as though believing were the same as mindlessly obeying. Although Christian unity seems impossible at present, I think it remains not only a worthy but a necessary goal if only to avoid more harmful consequences of political power exerted by the institution that you call the "whore of Babylon." Unification may be possible at some future time when RCC returns to the foundations of Christian belief and practice, when its "clergy" resemble the disciples who set up the early Christian churches, and when its "authority" means only the shared sense of the faithful.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 19, 2011, 02:45 PM EDT

  eiramach, with respect to unity . . This is not a unity of true Christians with false, nominal with genuine, sound doctrine with heresy. It is not a unity that ignores doctrinal differences for the sake of an enlarged fellowship. There is nothing in Christ’s prayer to indicate that man is to do anything whatsoever to create the unity described herein. John 17 is not a commandment addressed to men; it is a High Priestly prayer addressed to God the Father, and the prayer was answered. It describes a spiritual reality that was created by God among genuine born again saints who are committed to the Scriptures, not a possibility that must be organized by man.***While I don't belong to any of the sects you have identified in your most recent post who reject papal rule, as I consider myself a "Biblical Christian" (and make no apologies for it) nevertheless, I categorically without reservation reject the RCC's claim to papal authority. I recognize only CHRIST as the HEAD of HIS CHURCH and the authority of GOD'S WORD over the church.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 19, 2011, 02:42 PM EDT

  eiriamach, with respect to unity . . The Bible records Christ's great High Priestly prayer for unity amongst His followers in the 17th chapter of the Gospel of John***JOHN 17:21 -- “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”The modern ecumenical movement has taken John 17:21 as one of its theme verses, claiming that the unity for which Christ prayed is an ecumenical unity of professing Christians that disregards biblical doctrine. The context of John 17 destroys this myth. In John 17 the Lord plainly states that the unity for which He was praying is a unity based on salvation and truth and separation from the world.“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and THEY HAVE KEPT THY WORD. ... For I HAVE GIVEN UNTO THEM THE WORDS WHICH THOU GAVEST ME; AND THEY HAVE RECEIVED THEM, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. ... I HAVE GIVEN THEM THY WORD; AND THE WORLD HATH HATED THEM, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. ... Sanctify them through THY TRUTH: thy word is TRUTH. ... And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified THROUGH THE TRUTH” (John 17:6, 8, 14, 17, 19)

• eiriamach | Aug 19, 2011, 02:27 PM EDT

  (2) ON THE BASIS OF THIS CONSENSUS across many centuries AND across denominational lines, Pius XII concluded that the Church could consider the Assumption to be "a truth revealed by God and contained in that divine deposit which Christ has delivered to his Spouse to be guarded faithfully and to be taught infallibly." This papal document offers NO OTHER EVIDENCE for the truth of the shared, ancient belief in the Assumption besides the shared judgment that it is fitting that God brought the Blessed Virgin bodily into Heaven! This "infallible" declaration rests on the consensus of Christians from ancient times, since well before the Protestant Reformation: Pius XII cites St. John on Patmos and the testimony of church doctors from seventh-eighth centuries through the Medieval scholastics and later saints through 20th century theology. Therefore, I understand this exercise of papal "infallibility" by Pope Pius XII in terms of the consensus that he discovered. And this is a concept of infallibility that Second Vatican Council re-affirmed and clearly explained AS shared Christian belief (See "Lumen Gentium"). When other sects criticize the doctrine of the Assumption, they do so on the basis of a more recent, distorted sense of "infallibility" that has developed, I believe, among Traditionalists in opposition to Vatican II: unilateral papal decision-making without-- or even against as in 'Humanae Vitae'-- the consent of the episcopate (the bishops) and without/against the belief traditions of all Christians.

• eiriamach | Aug 19, 2011, 02:20 PM EDT

  (1) JuneAnnete, I find your question about papal infallibility the most interesting part of the current crisis--by which I mean the struggle-to-the-death between the traditionalists and the reformers in RCC. Very complex also! Here's just one thought about it. The recent celebration of the Assumption of the BVM, Aug. 15, brings to mind Pope Pius XII's statement about events leading up to his declaration "Munificentissimus Deus," which invoked the dogma of papal infallibility: "[S]ince we were dealing with a matter of such great moment and of such importance, we considered it opportune to ask all our venerable brethren in the episcopate directly and authoritatively that each of them should make known to us his mind in a formal statement. Hence, on 5.1.1946, we gave them our letter 'Deiparae Virginis Mariae,' a letter in which these words are contained: 'Do you, venerable brethren, in your outstanding wisdom and prudence, judge that the bodily Assumption of the Blessed Virgin can be proposed and defined as a dogma of faith? Do you, with your clergy and people, desire it?'" The bishops almost unanimously agreed with Pius XII, as did non-Catholic Christians: "the concordant faith of the Christian people" to whom the Assumption was "already known and accepted by Christ's faithful."

• eiriamach | Aug 19, 2011, 02:11 PM EDT

  JuneAnnette, I'm confident that the civil discourse between you and me will not change despite our differences of approach (I sometimes sound off against racists and sexists, but you are not one of those, so I have no fear of that). ---> In reply to Jacers and Gearoid4, I'll just list a FEW of the Catholic schisms (Catholic splinter-groups), churches that quite plausibly claim to be apostolic and Catholic but reject one or more claims of papal jurisdiction. They threaten to become as numerous as Protestant sects or denominations: the Eastern Orthodox churches, Russian Orthodox, Orthodox Catholic Church of France, Union of Utrecht, Coptic Church, Romanian Orthodox Church, Western Rite Orthodox, African Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, Ecumenical Catholic Communion, the Liberal Catholic Church, the Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch—Malabar Rite, Young Rite, Evangelical Catholic rites, the Traditionalist Roman Catholic Society of St. Pius X, Mariavite and Palmarian Catholic Churches, the various Independent Catholic churches such as Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, Polish National Catholic Church, Phillippine Independent Church, and Rabelados. There are more of these, and new one frequently appear!

• JuneAnnette | Aug 19, 2011, 01:59 PM EDT

  eiriamach, Final closing remarks: The gospel of ROME is not the glorious gospel of free and sovereign grace of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ, as set forth in God's Word . . the Bible, but is that gospel of which the Apostle Paul warned the Galatians as “another gospel.” It is a gospel of works, not of grace, and those who preach that gospel are under the anathema of God. Gal. 1:6-9 “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another: but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”Romans 11:5: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works:”

• JuneAnnette | Aug 19, 2011, 01:51 PM EDT

  eiriamach, more closing remarks: Is papal infallibility biblical? To err is human, to be infallible is divine (Romans 3:23). Peter deserted Christ in His passion, and did not assist Him in Golgotha. Peter described himself as an elder, witness and partaker, servant, and apostle (1 and 2 Peter) but never the first Pope, Prince of the apostles, or Head of the Church. Jesus Christ, not mortal and sinful man, is the only head of His Church (Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians.1:18).The unique authority of the Bible must never be diminished. Jesus Christ, not Peter, is the only foundation of the Church upon which believers must build (1 Corinthians 3:11; Ephesians 2:20-22). Any modified plan of salvation is dangerous and is another gospel. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:8).

• JuneAnnette | Aug 19, 2011, 01:47 PM EDT

  eiriamach, some closing remarks for your consideration. Those like yourself who seek to REFORM the RCC by doing away with the present hierarchial system would do well to consider the following statement made by the former pope:***In his book, Ecclesiam Suam, Pope Paul expressed his distress because of what some of the `separated brethren' say about the pope as the stumbling block in the way of church unity. He said, “Do not some of them say that if it were not for the primacy of the pope, the reunion of the separated churches with Catholic Church would be easy? We beg the separated brethren to consider the inconsistency of this position, not only in that, without the pope, the Catholic Church would no longer be Catholic, but also because without the supreme decisive pastoral office of Peter, the unity of the Church of Christ would utterly collapse.”****This unambiguous pronouncement by the former pope gives added weight to my assertion that the Roman Catholic “church” is IRREFORMABLE, but I'm afraid affords no hope for those in your camp who are pressing for REFORM.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 19, 2011, 01:45 PM EDT

  eiramach, thanks for your sympathy re: jacersagain. While it is apparent from many discussions in which we have engaged one another, that you and I have differences which cannot be reconciled, that has not prevented us from engaging in a civil discourse, without resorting to personal insults and I trust that will not change.

• eiriamach | Aug 19, 2011, 10:35 AM EDT

  JuneAnnette, in response to your question about Jacersagain's treatment of you, I'm in full sympathy with you. Jacers has a kind of patella-reflex reaction to ANY criticism of RCC. T'is a pity: an institution that cannot criticize itself cannot engage in any reform. See Gearoid4's Latin slogan, which translates roughly "The Church is forever reforming itself." Another smokescreen-- at present, RCC is a paradigm case of resistance to reform! We can stand inside the gates of the city and issue warnings and interrogate, the way that common folk interrogated Peter while Christ was on trial before Pilate, but they will react just as Peter did when he denounced Christ's path of Truth. Until they have no choice but to listen!

• eiriamach | Aug 19, 2011, 10:25 AM EDT

  The recent work on translating the Roman Missal, according to Litugicum Autheniticum, also marked the first work on the liturgy in modern times from which the Vatican excluded other Christian churches as representatives or consultants. LA makes clear that RCC seeks a liturgy that will set it apart from other Christian churches and that will make common inter-church ceremonies, such as a marriage between a Catholic and a Protestant, impossible. This is certainly a foolish path to take. It will strengthen Roman Catholics' sense of ultra-montanism, Catholic triumphalism, and clericalism to the detriment of any hope of Christian unity. It will further alienate Protestants from Roman Catholicism. The only upside I see in these recent e developments is that we will see a decrease of tension in the Six Counties between Catholic Republicans and Protestants who fear the Catholicism that has dominated the Republic of Ireland's government. That Republican Catholicism is at a very low ebb of influence and likely will remain weak and less of an impediment to North-South unity.

• eiriamach | Aug 19, 2011, 10:15 AM EDT

  Jacers, you're clearly wrong about the current pope. You can find a brief history in an article by Ruth Gledhill of TimesonLine, July 31, 2008: "When Archbishop Michael Ramsey visited Pope Paul VI in 1966, hopes were unprecedentedly high that some means could be found of achieving full, visible unity." However, "In an address to the Lambeth Conference of 670 Anglican bishops from around the world, the [Roman Catholic] cardinal who heads the Council for Christian Unity said the dialogue between Anglicans and Catholics would be irrevocably 'changed' as a result of the ordination of women and the recent vote to go ahead with consecrating women bishops. Cardinal Walter Kasper also reiterated the Vatican’s stance that homosexuality is a 'disordered' condition.... [He] said relations between the two churches are now deeply compromised. He urged bishops to consider their shared inheritance, which he said was 'worthy of being consulted and protected.'" He said, "Although our dialogue has led to a significant agreement on the idea of priesthood, the ordination of women to the episcopate blocks substantially and finally a possible recognition of Anglican orders by the Catholic Church." At the Lambeth conference, he said, "It seems to us that the Anglican Communion is very close to the Protestant Churches of the sixteenth century and is taking a position that those Churches took until the second half of the twentieth century." This inordinate RCC fear of looking like Protestants, which RCC pushed in the time of my great-great-grandparents in Ireland, is a potent weapon of control of Catholics by fear and prejudice! And the objection to Anglican women priests is a smokescreen for the Vatican's obstinate anti-Vatican II stance on retaining papal supremacy.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 19, 2011, 12:30 AM EDT

  I'll bet jacersagain's favorite tune is . . . All you need is love, all you need is love,All you need is love, love, love is all you need.Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love. All you need is love, all you need is love,All you need is love, love, love is all you need.There's nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown.Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.It's easy.All you need is love, all you need is love,All you need is love, love, love is all you need.All you need is love (all together now)All you need is love (everybody)All you need is love, love, love is all you need.****Catchy little tune, but I can't say much for the lyrics! ****Maybe jacersagain gives LOVE SEMINARS? ? Oh no, I think I sent this comment twice, and I know how upset that makes jaceragain . . but then again, he's so LOVING, he'll overlook it I'm sure! Nighty Night!

• JuneAnnette | Aug 19, 2011, 12:27 AM EDT

  I'll bet jacersagain's favorite tune is . . . All you need is love, all you need is love,All you need is love, love, love is all you need.Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love. All you need is love, all you need is love,All you need is love, love, love is all you need.There's nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown.Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.It's easy.All you need is love, all you need is love,All you need is love, love, love is all you need.All you need is love (all together now)All you need is love (everybody)All you need is love, love, love is all you need.****Catch little tune, but I can't say much for the lyrics! ****Maybe jacersagain gives LOVE SEMINARS? ?

• JuneAnnette | Aug 18, 2011, 10:46 PM EDT

  Boo hoo . . I'm beside myself. jaceragain thinks my comments are a "waste of time". I'm crushed. I'm devastated. I'm soo hurt. He says I'm so full of hate but he says such unloving things about me? ? ? He says such mean things about me . . like I'm "brainwashed". I don't feel welcome here anymore. eiriamach, am I really that bad? ? ? I probably won't sleep a wink tonight . . I'm so upset!

• jacersagain | Aug 18, 2011, 07:52 PM EDT

  @ eiriamach again – I am taken aback by your allegation that the Vatican has “faithlessly chosen to keep itself separate and distinct by ending ecumenical discussions and sharing of liturgical revisions with other sects”. Pope Benedict is noted for two things during his Pontificate of the RCC - his devotion to and trust in the Sacred Heart of Jesus and for his topmost objective: re-unification of Christian churches and maintaining dialogue with other churches having Abraham as their common link. He demonstrated that when he held a unique ecumenical service with leaders of other Christian Churches and of Jewish and Islamic faiths in Italy a few years ago. There was a Catholic-Muslim seminar which Pope Benedict attended in Rome a few years ago – its theme if I remember rightly was “Love God, Love your Neighbour” – our Christ’s Two Commandments which succinctly enshrine the Ten Commandments of God given to Abraham. Benedict’s visit to Britain and his joint service with the leader of the Anglican Church, his visit to Turkey (where he made an unprecedented declaration with Patriarch Bartholomew to heal the rift with the Orthodox Church) are further examples. His public humble acknowledgement of being in the chair of St. Peter gave him great impetus to pursue dialogue with people and churches which are “still not in communion with us”. He totally recognises the primacy of St. Peter delegated by Jesus Christ and His instruction to the Apostles to “go tell everyone”, holding constant ecumenical dialogue with most faiths, including of Buddhism and of Krishna. In my view, Pope Benedict could not be more loyal and faithful to that instruction of Christ to St. Peter and his successors. I applaud his radical approach to ecumenism, even if some of his pronouncements hurt people of other faiths... imho, he is speaking gobsmacking “hard to listen to” truths” that Jesus and St. Peter might have uttered too.

• jacersagain | Aug 18, 2011, 07:50 PM EDT

  @ eiriamach – You are quite correct in describing the early Christian Church as being comprised of “Churches”, even independent in their own right. But one has to acknowledge that they had to be and were largely secret on account of persecution of the early believers in Christ. It may surprise some to know that the very earliest practices of the Christians, including the Act of Consecration, took place in the family home with the ‘head of the family’ officiating. It was only after the reminder of Christ’s words to gather and pray in His Name that congregations built up. Nevertheless, all of these early churches shared the one single common belief and cannot be regarded as sects of Christianity within its widely understood meaning (I am disappointed with your selectively narrow definition). Therefore I cannot accept your reasoning that the Vatican is a sect of Christianity. The RCC became and is the conjoined version of all those early independent churches and thus the original from which sects of Christianity broke away from, which you are sadly correct in pointing out demonstrates the separation of many misled Christians from the original trunk of Christ’s tree.

• jacersagain | Aug 18, 2011, 07:47 PM EDT

  I think JuneAnnette continues to show how brain-washed she and deliberately posts excerpts from the Bible, newspaper reports and from speeches by all and sundry, including that of the Holy Father, completely out of context. Like I said before, we are not fooled... people like Gearoid4 are quite capable of showing just how wrong she is, and, quite frankly I find her posts a waste of time. I have never read a positive post by her, so I can only deduce that hate fills her mind instead of the Love of Christ. She might well appreciate, as many other eminent scholars in the world (Catholic and non-Catholic) recognise that Pope Benedict is one of the great thinkers of our time and that His books and speeches are exceptionally erudite and in truth. He has, even before he became Pope, been awarded numerous honours and awards for his astute writings.

• patrickomalley | Aug 18, 2011, 02:30 PM EDT

  Too late. The Catholic church was a big part of the Irish culture, and it will be forever remembered as the church of child rape and concealment. Young Irish teenagers now know the truth about the Catholic church - the way they lie, the way they ignore or fight the victims that they raped. Young Irish teenagers won't stay Catholic, and in 2 generations, the Catholic church will be invisible or insignificant in the Irish culture.

• eiriamach | Aug 18, 2011, 07:32 AM EDT

  JuneAnnette, I think the speech you quote is also evidence of Vatican officials having gone seriously astray and not being able to think clearly about their current dilemma. Jacersagain writes about the early Christian churches-- yes, "churches" plural: they had varied forms of worship and "ministers" of various kinds, and a healthy tolerance for diversity among their communities, but they were united in their shared belief in one God, one Savior. That early Christian history is also, along with 1,000 years of theology (the "doctors of the church"), the common heritage of all Christians. RCC has no patent on it. So I do not see Jacer's point, except to say that there is now real separation among Christians, and the Vatican has faithlessly chosen to keep itself separate and distinct by ending ecumenical discussions and sharing of liturgical revisions with other sects. ("Sect" simply designates a religious denomination, especially where there are several claiming the same title, such as "Christian." It can be used to suggest that a group is heretical, but its general use is simply to suggest that the group is one of several or many that are like it in some way.) It's unfortunate because the Vatican could learn something from other sects about how to deal effectively with the problem of sexual abuse.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 17, 2011, 11:27 PM EDT

  eiriamach, Not Surprising when you consider what the "pope" said in his 2010 Christmas message: Article: Pope’s child porn ‘normal’ claim sparks outrage among victims***Source: Belfast Telegraph / Tuesday, 21 December 2010***Victims of clerical sex abuse have reacted furiously to Pope Benedict’s claim yesterday that paedophilia wasn’t considered an “absolute evil” as recently as the 1970s. In his traditional Christmas address yesterday to cardinals and officials working in Rome, Pope Benedict XVI also claimed that child pornography was increasingly considered “normal” by society. “In the 1970s, paedophilia was theorised as something fully in conformity with man and even with children,” the Pope said. “It was maintained — even within the realm of Catholic theology — that there is no such thing as evil in itself or good in itself. There is only a ‘better than’ and a ‘worse than’. Nothing is good or bad in itself.” ****“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;” God’s Word as it is found in Isaiah 5:20a

• jacersagain | Aug 17, 2011, 11:20 PM EDT

  (...more) By St. Peter’s unselfish, dedicated determination and mission, under the guidance and encouragement that he and all those in his company received from the Holy Spirit in that moment they enthrallingly shared on that enormously eventful Pentecostal day (it must have been “something else”) to get up off his butt and go and change Rome, I don’t think a single Christian would ignore what Christ meant for him and his companions to do. I don’t remember of how or when I learned that Rome’s Christian Church began to be called the Roman “Catholic” (or Universal) Church, or why, but I’d be interested to be reminded of it from those who are more learned and less forgetful than I can be and especially inspired by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit of God Almighty - including possibly wayward radical sects still blessed by the Pentecostal Hoy Spirit personage of the Trinity of God, the same one depicted in one leaf ofthe Irish Shamrock. Ain’t it strange that in the middle of these discussions and claims of apostles of apostates that God, the Almighty One, is not mentioned? I suppose some think they know better than Him. The fools, the fools... God doesn’t have a single sect, or a radical purpose. JuneAnnette’s brain-washer and compositor of her postings should know we are not fooled. I think she should realise and know that too, with the help of God. I think JuneAnnette should do her damndest to escape the darkness of her apostate inculcating abuser and say the same to all who’ve been ensnared like she has apparently been.

• jacersagain | Aug 17, 2011, 11:14 PM EDT

  (...more) After all my tiring but delightfully exciting and rewarding travels, after my life’s sad experiences and after all my intrepid adventures and explorations for the “TRUE” religion during the times I was most fully doubting of all and any religion, I accept fully the decision of those early Christian Church leaders. That decision by them was based on St. Peter’s determination to go to Rome in Christ’s name and change Rome and its place in and for the lives of “bulti”-billions of people, including mine in writing this post and those of you reading it, almost 2000 yrs since Peter arrived there. Importantly, the Body and Blood of the living Christ spread around the world from there, into the Catholic churches of Croatia, Saudi Arabia (Oh yes! I, and several other members of the RCC, participated in Holy Communion with Christ in that country despite its authorities attempts to stop Christ reaching Christians) and countless others (check out a Catholic Church’s quiet Tabernacle, one quite close to you, the one you pass by without a hand wave of a greeting in yr facebooked, twittered life. No one can stop Christ wanting to be with anyone of us or with His Father, my and yr God and Almighty One. Like a Good Shepherd, He’ll find us who believe, or doubt, wherever we may be lost, whether it is an open desert or a closed commuterised, computerised and androitedly apple-fed city (...more)

• jacersagain | Aug 17, 2011, 10:55 PM EDT

  (...more) After all my tiring but delightfully exciting and rewarding travels, after my life’s sad experiences and after all my intrepid adventures and explorations for the “TRUE” religion during the times I was most fully doubting of any religion, I accept fully the decision of those early Christian Church leaders. That decision by them was based on St. Peter’s determination to go to Rome in Christ’s name and change Rome and its place in and for the lives of “bulti”-billions of people, including mine in writing this post and those of you reading it, almost 2000 yrs since Peter arrived there. Importantly, the Body and Blood of the living Christ spread around the world from there, into the Catholic churches of Croatia, Saudi Arabia (Oh yes! I, and several other members of the RCC, participated in Holy Communion with Christ in that country despite its authorities attempts to stop Christ reaching Christians) and countless others (check out a Catholic Church’s quiet Tabernacle, one quite close to you, the one you pass by without a hand wave of a greeting in yr facebooked, twittered life. No one can stop Christ wanting to be with anyone of us or with His Father, my and yr God and Almighty One. Like a Good Shepherd, He’ll find us who believe, or doubt, wherever we may be lost, whether it is an open desert or a closed commuterised, computerised and androitedly apple-fed city (...more).

• jacersagain | Aug 17, 2011, 09:53 PM EDT

  I’ve thought about a few contributors’ comments for a bit. Re the exchanges between eiriamach and Gearoid4 about the word ‘sect’, may I belatedly and quietly slip in to their coffee table and add that - as usually understood within Christianity or any other “religion” - ‘sect’ means a group or movement with heretical beliefs or practices that deviate from what is considered the original. On this basis (and on the bases of a lot of other flippin’ bases as well!), I think the Roman Church cannot ever be regarded as a sect, for the simple reason that it was agreed by all of the early (and I mean the very early, early original) Christian church establishers and leaders (including the Apostles and their companions whose tombs or relics I have been privileged to kneel in front of and pray for guidance. Embark on the same adventure pls, even the fresh air of those places will do you good)), including the then Bishops of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and other centres of population too numerous to mention, that the Bishop of Rome should be regarded as the rightful leader of the Church founded by Christ and delegated for propagation to St. Peter by Him. (Aside questions for all: after St. Peter, who do you know to have been the 2nd Bishop of Rome? Who was the 3rd? You all know who the present Bishop of Rome is; many posters spend their time attacking him... would you attack the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd one in the same vein or, let’s assume, the next one, on faith grounds? Why attack the present one of the same grounds? As few of everyone knows, within their families there’s more to the family’s white page than a black spot on it (More ...)

• eiriamach | Aug 17, 2011, 09:36 PM EDT

  What does this new information about RCC bishops taking advice from the "sexologists" do to the claim often seen on these pages that the Roman Catholic Church has the perpetual guidance of the Holy Spirit? It makes that claim look like blasphemy.

• eiriamach | Aug 17, 2011, 09:26 PM EDT

  Wow, JuneAnnette, I will find some time to work through that material. At first glance, however, I would not leap to the conclusion that church officials like Cardinal Law were duped by "sexologists." What the sexologists were offering fit RCC needs too neatly: a quasi-medical approach to pedophilia, to suggest that pedophiles can be medically controlled so that there's no need to imprison them; the notion that children "forget" that they've been violated and it would do harm to remind them (for a long time, we've known of the phenomenon of repression of traumatic events and the severe disorientation that can occur when victims recall the traumatic events to consciousness. "Forgetting" is poppycock; this is an area for serious professional intervention!); the notion that prosecuting the offender would harm the child further; and the suggestion that bishops would have believed that the child-victims were complicit or even seductive in their own rapes-- Outrageous! Can a bishop be that stupid? So at first glance, I cannot imagine how this connection coming to light can excuse the bishops who lied to protect pedophile priests. It will make them look idiotic if the RCC bishops claim that the "sexologists" led them astray. Probably, it's just another futile attempt to deflect responsibility away from the bishops and onto "liberal," fraudulent "sexologist" quacks. This sexual abuse scandal just gets stranger and stranger every day, doesn't it? I trust parents to scoff at the whole idea of psychiatric "normalization" of pedophilia and to insist on keeping criminal laws in place for prosecuting such offenders--and their protectors.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 17, 2011, 08:30 PM EDT

  LATE BREAKING NEWS Dr. Fred Berlin,a chief consultant for decades to the American Catholic Bishops and Religious Order Provincials on sex offender priests, will address tomorrow in Baltimore a controversial symposium sponsored by an organization that calls itself “B4U-ACT”. B4U-ACT advocates the decriminalization and tolerance of persons who have a lifelong attraction and desire for sexual contact with youngsters. B4U-ACT, when describing its core values states: “Individuals who are attracted to children are the focus of everything that we do.”Not surprisingly, Archbishop Emeritus Rembert Weakland of Milwaukee, in a deposition taken in 2008, cites Berlin as the chief expert on pedophilia that the U.S. bishops consulted when faced with the growing sexual abuse crisis. According to SNAP, Dr. Fred Berlin was an advisor to disgraced Archbishop Rembert Weakland and many other bishops, apparently, on the issue of homosexual priest abuse of young boys. Not only that, he counseled Weakland and other bishops to keep pedophile priests in service and to cover up their crimes.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 17, 2011, 08:26 PM EDT

  eiramach, late breaking news . . 'Conference Aims to Normalize Pedophillia' / Source: The Daily Caller / Dr. Fred Berlin,a chief consultant for decades to the American Catholic Bishops and Religious Order Provincials on sex offender priests, will address tomorrow in Baltimore a controversial symposium sponsored by an organization that calls itself “B4U-ACT”. B4U-ACT advocates the decriminalization and tolerance of persons who have a lifelong attraction and desire for sexual contact with youngsters. B4U-ACT, when describing its core values states: “Individuals who are attracted to children are the focus of everything that we do.” Not surprisingly, Archbishop Emeritus Rembert Weakland of Milwaukee, in a deposition taken in 2008, cites Berlin as the chief expert on pedophilia that the U.S. bishops consulted when faced with the growing sexual abuse crisis.***PERHAPS ROME HAS THEIR OWN AGENDA FOR "REFORM"

• eiriamach | Aug 17, 2011, 06:46 PM EDT

  themurphia, yes, at least a little obsessed! Obviously I need to do more research. I didn't know about the stepfather affair, nor the child. "A little learning is a dangerous thing / Drink deep or taste not the Pierian spring."

• eiriamach | Aug 17, 2011, 06:32 PM EDT

  All Christians claim the bible as heritage in common. Neither Gearoid4 nor the encyclical 'Dei Verbum' offers a biblical source for his claim that Christ entrusted interpretation of the bible solely to ancestors of RCC bishops, so I put this claim to the test of reason. Not surprisingly, the claim to be the sole appointed interpreter of truths bequeathed by the Holy Spirit meets with skepticism today since RCC officials have repeatedly concealed and falsified cases of sexual abuse. Self-regarding lies erode credibility, and without credibility, authority crumbles. The guardian of the truth must be practiced and perfect in truth telling. This was the final harsh test that Christ gave Peter just before His own trial. Peter failed his trial. He repented his three-fold lie only after a crowd of ordinary citizens interrogated him and refused to accept his initial testimony. As a perjured witness, he would have failed utterly and been lost --and the infant church would have perished --if he had not recalled: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us ... full of grace and truth" (John 1:14). Peter did not bother to apologize for lying to the crowd. An apology, like the one offered by Bishop Finn, acknowledges the harm done by lies and concealment, and it expresses regret, but cannot salvage the authority of the confessed liar. As RCC Catechism states, the Church must be "a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem," the abode of truth. The authority of RCC with regard to scripture and doctrine is compromised; it's a sign not of truth but of lies like Peter's. There's no way back to the Spirit of Truth without a deliberate rehabilitation, a return to the foundations, a structural reform.

• themurphia | Aug 17, 2011, 05:29 PM EDT

  From her education...and research...you are obsessed with Bess...!

• JuneAnnette | Aug 17, 2011, 02:10 PM EDT

  The various articles written by Richard Bennett, Biblical Apologist and former Roman Catholic priest, are underpinned by biblical truth. Mr. Bennett's scholarly work is truly a labour in love, in which his desires to reach Roman Catholics particularly with the glorious gospel of free and sovereign grace of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ are his sole objective. His firsthand knowledge of the inner workings of the RCC drawn from his 22 years as a Roman Catholic priest uniquely qualifies him for this challenging work. His studied examination of R.C. Doctrines / traditions, as they are set forth in official Roman Catholic documents in the light of SCRIPTURE alone is an invaluable resource for Catholics to thoughtfully and prayerfully consider. More importantly, Mr. Bennett's own conversion experience recounted in his article: 'From Tradition to Truth' uniquely qualifies him to communicate those things which he himself was taught by the Holy Spirit through his personal study of God's Word. Once again, I encourage Roman Catholics to visit his website, Berean Beacon and decide for themselves if he has borne a true and credible witness for the TRUTH.

• Gearoid4 | Aug 17, 2011, 12:10 PM EDT

  Sorry, Eiriamach, nice try, but no cigar. By any neutral observer's observation, the Catholic Church is indeed the apostolic Church founded by Christ and only the thousand and one derivations that came down the line later could arguably be termed "sects". I know about the well-publicized cases about bishops who facilitated the conditions for sex-predators within the priestly ranks to escape the long arm of the secular law. This is the dark side of clericalism which is the opposite of the humility and service advocated in the gospels. Genuine reforms are required but not changes based on worldly models that are in conflict with biblical precepts. The changes required have to be undertaken within the hearts and souls of both clerics and laypeople. Those who are charged with leading their flocks in the hierarchies especially have to review their performances as more is expected of them. There is no half-way house here. Well, JuneAnnette, what you consider "unbiblical" is based on the writings of someone who is turn is quoting the distorted quotations of protestant fundamentalists. For all her faults both past and present, I would rather take the biblical mandate as given to the Catholic Church through Peter than the biblical quotes bent out of shape by ex-Catholics who have apostatized.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 17, 2011, 12:03 PM EDT

  eiramach, the monarchial rule of the so-called "princes of the church", so far removed from the model the New Testament gives us of how Christ's church is to be structured and governed, will never change and it is that distinguishing difference that truly marks it out as anti-CHRISTIAN.***Woodcuts produced in 1521 from the Passional of Christ and Antichrist, illustrated by Lucas Cranach with captions by Martin Luther vividly portray the distinct contradictions in view between Christ and the pope. These are some of the themes of the illustrations which can be viewed online.***Christ fled from an earthly crown — Antichrist ever seeks earthly dominion***Christ is given a crown of thorns — Antichrist wears a triple crown of gold***Christ paid taxes — The Pope is exempt from taxes*** Christ lived in humble poverty — Antichrist fares sumptuously***Christ was bowed to earth with the cross — The Pope is carried about in state***Christ rode into Jerusalem on a humble ass — Antichrist rides a beautiful, caparisoned steed (a popemobile in our day)***Christ sought neither silver nor gold — Antichrist rules cities and empires***Christ's kingdom was not with observation — Antichrist subjects the whole world***Christ drove out the moneychangers — The Pope sells indulgences*** Christ ascends to heaven — The Pope will descend into hell***Martin Luther summarized in a later edition of Passional of Christ and Antichrist: "Christ and the pope are here presented opposite each other. Please note the case of each. It will not be difficult for you to decide whether or not the pope is the Antichrist, who is against our Lord Jesus Christ."

• eiriamach | Aug 17, 2011, 07:03 AM EDT

  "Catholicism is no sect"?? Gearoid4, it is at best a sect. It is common here in the States to hear people speak of the three most populous US religious groups: "Jews, Christians, and Catholics." Many do not recognize Catholicism as a form of Christianity at all! If it is a form of Christianity, it is a sect, and if it is not a form of Christianity, as some people think, what is it? Think before you answer because when the RCC becomes completely distinct from other Christian churches, it will be difficult for other Christians to recognize Catholics as members of the one body of Christ, and then I'd have to agree with JuneAnnette that RCC is beyond reform. As for your labeling reform initiatives "liberal fantasies," take a look, as I suggested earlier, at the politics of the sexual abusers and their bishop-protectors, men like Bishop Finn and Father Ratigan, who are far to the right in church politics and now facing criminal charges in the USA. Their message to their diocese was the same as yours-- returning to strict church discipline and overthrowing the reforms set in motion by Vatican II. You can keep purging the pedophiles, but they will keep re-emerging until RCC undertakes serious reform, reform of the type that other Christian sects began in the 15th century and continue today.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 17, 2011, 12:47 AM EDT

  Let each reader decide if they prefer the unscriptural babbling of ROME to the sound biblical exegesis of Richard Bennett, Biblical Apologist. I encourage Roman Catholics to visit his website, Berean Beacon and decide for themselves if he has born a true and credible witness for the TRUTH. As I have already said . . my heartfelt prayer is that the present Clergy Abuse SCANDAL raging within the Roman Catholic "church" will serve as a wake up call for many of the "faithful" which will PROD them into a diligent and serious study of the Scriptures for themselves.***Definition of 'PROD': “to persuade or encourage someone to do something; prod someone into doing something:”***Source: MacMillan Dictionary

• Gearoid4 | Aug 16, 2011, 08:43 PM EDT

  Ah yes, JuneAnnette, giving us a biblical lesson on scripture based on the ramblings of an an apostate, ex-priest called Fr Bennett. The quotes you use to denounce Rome are not used in their appropriate time-frame and are out of context. The "Mother of Harlots" and "Whore of Babylon" references are recognized by reputable biblical scholars as code for the bloated, corrupt Rome of Emperor Nero who took sadistic pleasure in persecuting Christians. The reformers in the 16th C tried to use the same quotes in a twisted fashion to put Rome in the role of the anti-Christ but their "churches" have consequently splinted into multiple thousands of pieces. Hardly a sign of providence from above, as Christ prayed that they "all be one". As for the interpretation of scripture, these churches all claim that they are right but the current chaos which pervades across protestantism is a direct consequence of this mode of exegesis. Catholicism is no sect,Eiriamach, as She has a mandate from Jesus Himself established on earth, through the keys of authority given to Peter(Matthew 16:18). Also Jesus promised that the gates of hades will not prevail against her. The liberal fantasies which you spout in your exchanges with JuneAmmette have been tried in the "mainline" protestant churches in both the US and Europe and they have led to a rapid decline over the decades for them in terms of adherents and influence. Churches prostrating themselves before the golden calf of worldly values is a recipe for their own destruction. I agree that we have seen the sins of bishops and priests come back to haunt them as the dead hand of clericalism in some parts threatens to strangle the life-giving message of the gospels out of the Church. But I believe that an global expurgation is currently underway to remove the infected parts of the Church body through a renewal of Church life in Ireland, Europe and elsewhere.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 16, 2011, 07:52 PM EDT

  Eiriamach, I will leave you and others to consider the words of Intercessor who commented here at on Aug 15, 2011, 02:34 AM EDT*** "Jesus promised that His Kingdom would be "WITHIN." This is the ONLY kingdom that the Gates of Hell can't come against:. . . For centuries the Church taught us that She was the only way to salvation. It was known as "The Ex Cathedra Doctrine." Unfortunately for the Vatican, Scripture clearly taught: "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever would believe upon Him would have eternal life (John 3:16). As a Cradle-Catholic, I would rather believe the inerrancy of Scripture, rather than the errors of the Vatican, when it comes to the topic of my salvation. What about you? Regarding His followers, Jesus also taught, "By their fruits you will know them." Look at the "fruits" of the bishops, all around the world. Since when is the criminal coverups of acts of Pedophilia a fruit of the Holy Spirit? Since when is lying, but calling it "mental reservation," a permissible fruit of the Holy Spirit?"***AMEN to that Intercessor!***My heartfelt prayer is that the present Clergy Abuse SCANDAL raging within the Roman Catholic "church" will serve as a wake up call for many of the "faithful" which will PROD them into a diligent and serious study of the Scriptures for themselves.***Definition of 'PROD': “to persuade or encourage someone to do something; prod someone into doing something:”***Source: MacMillan Dictionary

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 07:05 PM EDT

  I know I promised to go away, but themurphia's tidbits about Queen Elizabeth 1st brought me back. Where did themurphia find all that fascinating info? No, don't tell me now. I need to let my computer cool down overnight.

• themurphia | Aug 16, 2011, 06:16 PM EDT

  Unlike the royal bastard the Red Queen symbollically married to her country...because she would rather be a Virgin (hahaha)Queen...actually a harlot who had probably borne a child by her stepfather...than marry a Catholic...A little Ecumenical with the truth methinks..And yes therse interminable conversations are well...interminable...!Duplicity is probabaly not the best position from which to try to establish credibility...!

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 05:44 PM EDT

  This is my last on this topic because you remember, recently, JuneAnnette, some posters objected to our going on too long! I was struck by your quote from Bennett about "a woman dressed in purple and scarlet, decked with gold, precious stones, and pearls, a harlot, and the mother of harlots and abominations." You'd like to interpret this image as the Roman Church, which is a 'woman' only symbolically, as 'bride of Christ.' You can make the point in a graphic way. Take a look at the video on You Tube entitled "The Papal Tiara" by CaeremonialeRomanvm. One recent You Tube viewer commented, "A splendid reminder of the Pope's supreme authority over the Church. He is a King and an absolute monarch no question," and another: "It would be great to see His Holiness reinstate the Papal Tiara. The Church needs to bring back the symbols of authority and their meaning." It becomes clear from those images and words that loyal Roman Catholics are delusionally in love with power and supreme authority and all the visible hoopla of absolute monarchy and empire; they overlook the failings of men who strut such dazzling "gold, precious stones, and pearls." Google "cappa magna" to see photos of the many long yards of fuschia silk worn by bishops at papal masses. They require a large troop of starry-eyed altar boys to carry the silk train! Where is the image of Christ, we might ask, in all these male-only strutters, bejewelled, robed in gold, silver, purple and scarlet, silk and brocade, laces and embroidery? Idolatry? Yes, too much gold, too little God.

• themurphia | Aug 16, 2011, 04:52 PM EDT

  Marcial Maciel..an illusionist...a bit like yerself...!

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 04:28 PM EDT

  JuneAnnette, while I share many of your perceptions, I'd like to offer you a suggestion about strategy: Roman Catholics have been trained (in fact, it's a pre-Vatican II dogma of RCC) to understand quotations from scripture ONLY as interpreted by the pope and his obedient hierarchy. You quoted Martin Luther on just that point: "Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that none may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope." So your copious quotations from scripture are counter-productive. They are not likely to sway any loyal Roman Catholics. It looks like resentful Protestant ranting to them. They recognize only male clerical "authority" in matters of quoting and explaining anything from the bible! When you comment on the corruption of RCC hierarchy, you'd have more success if you compared RCC "tradition" or theology to its handling of the sexual abuse crisis.

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 04:11 PM EDT

  Correction: "Lefevre" should have been Archbishop Marcel François Marie Joseph Lefebvre, the most ardent enemy of reform during the Second Vatican Council.

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 03:51 PM EDT

  JuneAnnette, "Belial"? "Plagues"? "Whore"? "Mother of harlots" (it always bothered me that the pope refers to his Church with feminine pronouns. No mother would treat her children in the way that RCC treats women and children!)? You are demonizing the RCC. That's the wrong path for Protestants. There are enough Catholic schismatic groups, followers of Marcial Maciel and Lefebre, who are spinning out such tales, along with conspiracy theories about Masons plotting to bring down the Roman Church by infiltrating it with liberal theologians and pedophiles. (Liberals and pedophiles are rarely the same people-- check the politics of the pedophiles and their protector-bishops). Let's not try to stir up any more fears about devils stalking the halls of the Vatican. RCC is a Christian sect gone wildly and arrogantly astray. When enough of its members awaken to the Spirit of reform, things may change. Or if RCC refuses to change, then as another poster put it, RCC will die of its own refusal to follow the core teachings of Christ.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 16, 2011, 03:33 PM EDT

  Eiramach, The Word of God as it is found in II Cor. 6:15s is plain enough***"And what concord (agreement) hath Christ with Belial?"****In God's Word as it is found in Revelation 18, verse 4, Christ gives His people an unambiguous command***". . .Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."****Chapter 18 of the Book of Revelation describes in detail the plagues / judgment of the Lord God that come upon the great whore!***Eiramach, I have endeavored to speak the TRUTH in love as we are exhorted to in Eph. 4:15. I understand all too well how difficult it is to be confronted with these things and to accept them as true, for as I have stated before I was raised in the Roman Catholic tradition. I too had to come to terms with the painful truth that the Roman Catholic "church" is not the "Bride of Christ", but the whore . . "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Rev.17:5)

• JuneAnnette | Aug 16, 2011, 03:16 PM EDT

  Eiramach, Perhaps this brief excerpt from Richard Bennett's article entitled: 'The Perilous Fondness for the Papacy' will convey the seriousness of the matter:***Overview of the Apostate Church***"The Holy Spirit in Revelation Chapter Seventeen vividly depicts the features of the Apostate Church. It is done in graphically precise detail. The Apostle John beheld the ten-horned beast carrying a woman dressed in purple and scarlet, decked with gold, precious stones, and pearls, a harlot, and the mother of harlots and abominations. She is the paramour of kings, merciless, cruel, intoxicated with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Christ Jesus. These symbols are brilliantly portrayed. “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth” (v 9). This the Holy Spirit clarifies by proclaiming, “the woman which thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth” (v 18). The city indisputably is Rome. The name upon the harlot’s brow is “mystery” (v 5). She cannot be heathen Rome of which there was no mystery because her character was never concealed. “Christian” Rome, however, is a mystery, for she is not what she appears. Babylon, in the book of Revelation, is a city and a harlot. Jerusalem, in the same book, is a city and a bride. Babylon is the fraudulent lover of earthly kings; Jerusalem, the chaste bride of the King of Kings. The contrast is between the faithful Church and the Apostate Church. Chapter Seventeen thus describes in detail the character of the Apostate Church."

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 02:44 PM EDT

  JuneAnnette, I'm not disputing your criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church, only your approach to Christian unity. Rebuke the pedophiles and their protectors, yes! But don't consign the whole RCC prematurely to the flames of Hell. Give reform a chance. If they obstinately resist reform, eventually the ultra-conservative influences in the Vatican and elsewhere will be left alone as the faithful depart and leave their churches empty and impoverished. But there is some hope; for example, the Association of Catholic Priests of Ireland (they have a web site) has embraced various reforms even though their bishops are still silent on the matter. Roman Catholics who genuinely want change and a life of the Spirit can find clergy who are amenable to reform.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 16, 2011, 02:30 PM EDT

  Eiramach, God reaffirms the ground of true unity in Eph. 4:4-6: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”***Believers, therefore, who adhere to God only and His Written Word, as did the Lord and the Apostles after Him (‘Sola Scriptura’) are one in body, in Spirit, and in truth. They are saved before the all-Holy God by grace alone, through faith alone, and in Christ alone, with all glory and praise being ascribed to God alone! These biblical principles define the basis for true unity in the Lord. The Bride of Christ is distinguished by her faithfulness to the Lord and His Word, as contrasted with the whore who is not!

• rbkaiser | Aug 16, 2011, 02:18 PM EDT

  Catholics in Ireland should not wait for "daddy" to solve their problems. They should pre-empt the pope and elect their own bishops. Only then will they have a voice, a vote, and citizenship in THEIR Church. Only then will they have an accountable Church. Robert Blair Kaiser

• JuneAnnette | Aug 16, 2011, 02:16 PM EDT

  Eiramach, In God's Word as it is found in Eph. 5:11, there is a clear command given to those who profess Christ, namely: "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." The R.C. "church" is not Christian, but through the ages it's only bloody history reveals that it is the spirit of anti-CHRIST that rules there. With such, as this text plainly states, we are to have no fellowship! Again, we are WARNED in God's Word as it is found in 1 John 4:1*** "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 01:49 PM EDT

  JuneAnnette, that's an un-Christian thing you wrote. See Ephesians 4:4-6: "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 01:37 PM EDT

  JuneAnnette, that's an un-Christian thing you wrote. See Ephesians 4:4-6: "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." Membership in a community of faith is essential to the practice of Christianity and to growth in the life of the spirit. I agree with those who question "do-it-yourself" Christianity because Christ called his followers to "one hope" in unified worship of the one God of all. It's unfortunate that current RCC "leadership" stridently rejects non-Roman Christianity; it is ironically anti-catholic! Rome could learn much from struggles with reform in other churches. Perhaps the way to be truly Catholic these days is to worship elsewhere than the RCC and to pray for true reform in Vatican City. What the pope has in mind as "radical changes" in Ireland is likely to resemble change in the Kansas City diocese: see L. Goodman's article, NY Times, about Bishop Finn-- of Opus Dei-- and the conservative Fr. Shawn Ratigan. Anyone who thinks that Opus Dei and SSPX anti-reform approaches are the way out of the sexual abuse swamp hasn't examined the politics of pedophiles like Ratigan and his bishop-protector Finn, who told the Catholics of his diocese that a radical return to strict discipline and rejection of Vatican II reforms would end the scandals. Now, Ratigan is indicted for producing porn pics of little girls as they slept, and Bishop Finn faces charges for protecting Ratigan! "Make every effort!" to reform.

• JuneAnnette | Aug 16, 2011, 01:01 PM EDT

  The “church” of ROME is irreformable . . In his day Martin Luther witnessed firsthand the gross immorality, the unchecked vice, the corrupt practices, most notably, the “selling of indulgences”, and the unbridled abuse of power amongst the clergy, and like some today who remain in the RCC, had noble thoughts of reforming it from within. He soon discovered however that Rome was irreformable and broke his ties with them. The rest is history. Martin Luther is widely known as “Father of the Reformation” (1483-1546)***His timely words: “The Roman Catholics have, with great adroitness, drawn three walls round themselves, with which they have hitherto protected themselves, so that no one could reform them, whereby all Christendom has fallen terribly. Firstly, if pressed by the temporal power, they have affirmed and maintained that the temporal power has no jurisdiction over them, but, on the contrary, that the spiritual power is above the temporal. Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that none may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope.Thirdly, if they are threatened with a council, they pretend that no one may call a council but the Pope. Thus they have stolen our three rods and entrenched themselves behind these three walls, to act with all wickedness and malice, which we now witness.”***Take note of the last phrase which I now place in caps for emphasis: "TO ACT WITH ALL WICKEDNESS AND MALICE, WHICH WE NOW WITNESS."***How very applicable are the words of LUTHER in the present SCANDAL that continues to PLAGUE the R.C. "church"

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 12:38 PM EDT

  (More) To quote Archbishop Ramsey (1968), "We shall love our own Anglican family NOT AS SOMETHING ULTIMATE but because in it and through it, we and others have our place in the ONE Church of Christ. The former is a lovely special loyalty: the latter is the Church against which our Lord predicted that the gates of death would not prevail. Now, as the work of unity advances there will come into existence United Churches not describably Anglican but in communion with us and sharing with us what we hold to be the unshaken essence of Catholicity. What then of the future boundaries of our Anglican Communion? We shall face that question without fear, without anxiety, because of our faith in the things which are not shaken. Perhaps the Anglican role in Christendom may come to be less like a separate encampment and more like a colour in the spectrum of a rainbow, a colour bright and unselfconscious." Archbishop Ramsey's faith in "the things that are not shaken" seems prophetic now, when we see RCC shaken to failure by its refusal of reforms. AB Ramsey took his words from Hebrews xii, 27-29: "This phrase 'yet once more' indicates the removal of what is shaken in order that what cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire."

• eiriamach | Aug 16, 2011, 12:23 PM EDT

  Jacersagain, you invite opinions about the excommunication of one who leaves RCC for another Christian sect, so here's one. Christ's final prayer was for the unity of His church; however, current Vatican policy rejects ecumenism entirely-- in direct violation of His wishes. The Vatican's reason? Other Christian sects are ordaining women and non-celibate males (horrors!). In other words, these sects are engaged in the reforms that the Second Vatican Council-- also rejected by the current Vatican-- set in motion. If all sects were continuously reforming in the image of Christ, then all sects would become like each other, and there will be no final impediment to Christian unity. RCC is the renegade from this process; it prefers its own "holy remnant" to looking like Protestant churches. Those who desire reform and unification with other Christians can sign onto another sect in the hope that, in the end, after the Vatican comes to its senses and recalls its mission-- "that all may be one"-- they will be re-united with a reformed RCC. Read "Et unum sint" for more about this goal mandated by Christ for all Christians. No, joining a reform movement is not an excommunicable offense; it's faithfulness to Christ's mandate! To quote Richard Giles on ecumenism, "We have travelled a very long way in the last 40 years – backwards. As the cold winds of imperial papalism sweep across the ecumenical scene, it seems hardly credible that Pope Paul VI once recognised the Church of England as 'our beloved sister church', and welcomed Michael Ramsey, 100th Archbishop of Canterbury, with the words 'by entering into our house you are entering your own house. We are happy to open our door and our heart to you.'”

• errigal | Aug 16, 2011, 12:14 PM EDT

  The irish need to take back there love for the people. Rome must not ever tell us again how to live our lives. They have destroyed many generations of loving souls. It would be nice for us all to hear the Vacitcan's Confession. I think why should I ever go to confess again. SHAME ON THE VACITCAN. They will never pull the wool over our eyes again.

• jmKelley | Aug 16, 2011, 11:26 AM EDT

  “Don’t let the institutional church get in the way of your relationship with God.” …Fr. Mychal Judge, “the Saint of 9/11”

• adrienrain | Aug 16, 2011, 11:21 AM EDT

  Sexual abuse is not confined to Roman Catholicism, tho' it may be exacerbated by the practice of celibacy. Protestant and Judaic religious leaders also stand accused and in Muslim theocracies, marrying off children (girls) is another form of child abuse. What we all need to ask ourselves is whether the presumed 'good' that organized religion does makes up for the evil produced by asymmetrical power, and whether such institutions really deserve to survive.

• adrienrain | Aug 16, 2011, 11:14 AM EDT

  Radical? Gee, for a moment I thought the pope was about to declare women's equality or something! But no, he's just downsizing to accommodate the new reality: the international trend towards Reality. The day of religious dictatorship is coming to a slow, long overdue, but well-earned end.

• jmKelley | Aug 16, 2011, 10:56 AM EDT

  “Don’t let the institutional church get in the way of your relationship with God.” …Fr. Mychal Judge, “the Saint of 9/11” http://SaintMychalJudge.blogspot.com

• joeustace | Aug 16, 2011, 10:40 AM EDT

  In other news, pot calls kettle black.

• jacersagain | Aug 16, 2011, 10:11 AM EDT

  @canadianirish – sorry you’ve seen fit to abandon the Roman Catholic Church. In doing so, you’ve turned your back on St. Peter’s Church and may have automatically excommunicated yourself and thus no longer entitled to call yourself a Catholic (I speculate there; others with more authority and learning might offer comment on that). DIY catholic practice is exactly what the Holy Pontiff has warned about and churches such as what you’ve chosen are known to have a dismal rate of failure, however delusionary noble its aims, beliefs and practices. I would refer readers again to JoeCupertino’s post Aug 14, 09.38pm which I think is an excellent post and exceptionally true in all it says. If one takes away the scandals within the church, one is left with what St. Peter established in all its Holiness. Leaving the RCC on account of scandals is, I believe, no excuse at all to abandon it. And I really mean it is NO excuse for any Catholic. I'm disappointed with southcountykelly's comment below - it displays crass ignorance of what Christianity is all about and of its history.

• jacersagain | Aug 16, 2011, 10:07 AM EDT

  I agree w/ posters’ comments calling for reform of the Catholic Church and I think most people would agree that the Vatican is working to do so if seemingly a bit tardily. Indeed the Church has been constantly changing over the centuries and will continue to do so in the future. One has only to recall the episode of the Borgias family in papal history (recently shown on US TV channels and soon to appear on Irish TV) and how that changed much since. However, I have to repeat that the Church cannot ever change from its teaching mission as delegated to St. Peter and his successors whatever reforms it puts in place.

• southcountykelly | Aug 16, 2011, 09:09 AM EDT

  Real reform might embrace a separation of the people of the Catholic Church from the theocratic dominion of Rome, Canon Law, and the self imposed higher archy referred to as bishops and clery. The word 'churches' is used in the Book of Revelation....the Catholic church is never mentioned.

• canadianirish | Aug 15, 2011, 08:09 PM EDT

  @jacersagain - huh? I'm merely voicing my contempt of the Catholic Church. I am a confirmed Catholic, however, I have lost almost all respect for Vatican Inc. What makes you think that installing new bishops and clergy will remedy anything? I will always love and be devoted to the Lord and have chosen to align myself with the wonderful 'In Touch Ministries' and Dr. Charles Stanley. A finer Christian you'll never meet. I will always be a Christian but believe it is more about having a personal relationship with God, shining His light, and living a purpose driven life. There are wonderful Christian men and women devoted to 'In Touch Ministries'. If you truly think the Catholic Church can clean up its mess, you're deluding yourself. Should they try? Of course they should! Maybe in the next few generations they'll finally get it right.

• helmet365 | Aug 15, 2011, 07:21 PM EDT

  I find all this discussion refreshing brought about by recent upheavels in the church. What it tells us is that for centuries the Cathollic Church has been feeding us plebs a lot of nonsence which we has accepted without question for fear of the so called threat of an eternal flame. A good cleansing which we can see by these posts will help form an up to date honest church. As a previous poster previously said "The Church must change or die". Now hang on that was me wasn't it. God bless all.

• barneyjo | Aug 15, 2011, 06:17 PM EDT

  @keneconnor - "Are you so blind that you do not see??" I pity you!! I've just watched "The Ressurection of Brendan Smyth" again. I will now be responding to the poll on this site which asks if the Church in Ireland can be saved. It cannot, not as long as Sean Brady and a good many of the present Bishops remain in post. We await the report by the National Board for the protection of children of its audit of the diocese of Raphoe. I await it with interest!!

• barneyjo | Aug 15, 2011, 05:57 PM EDT

  I've just watched "The Ressurection of Brendan Smyth" again. I will now be responding to the poll on this site which asks if the Church in Ireland can be saved. It cannot, not as long as Sean Brady and a good many of the present Bishops remain in post. We await the report by the National Board for the protection of children of its audit of the diocese of Raphoe. I await it with interest!!

• barneyjo | Aug 15, 2011, 05:39 PM EDT

  @kenconnor - "Are you so blind that you cannot see??" I feel so sorry for you!!

• eiriamach | Aug 15, 2011, 03:47 PM EDT

  "Ev'rythin's up to date in Kansas City/ They've gone about as far as they can go!"-- song from "Oklahoma!" The sexual abuse scandal is also up to date in Kansas City. An Opus Dei bishop may face criminal charges there for not reporting pedophile activity by one of his priests, Fr. Shawn Ratigan. Ratigan has been indicted by a federal grand jury for producing pornography (indecent photos of young girls in his parish). Bishop Finn took no action although he knew of the porn for months. He recently paid out $10 million to settle the diocese's sexual abuse cases. According to yesterday's NY Times story by Laurie Goodstein, "Father Ratigan, 45, was also an outspoken conservative.... He and a class of Catholic school students joined Bishop Finn for the bus ride to the annual March for Life rally in Washington in 2007. The diocese was first warned about Fr Ratigan’s inappropriate interest in young girls as far back as 2006, according to accusations in the civil lawsuit filed Thursday." Why does Goodstein mention the church politics of these two men? Does she know of attempts to deflect attention from the politics of the scandal, as we've seen done by IC posters like JoeCupertino and Gearoid4, below? They try to convince the gullible that if they return to pre-Vatican II Catholic discipline, everything will be fine in Ireland. That's just what the Opus Dei bishop told his flock in Kansas City!

• Scarlettkp | Aug 15, 2011, 11:09 AM EDT

  I hope it happens but where I am all they do is blame the helpless victims. The whole church has been sold on the idea that "outsiders" have joined the church and pretended to be victims to gain money by suing. I think myself the church has such systemic problems that it may take centuries to fix. I hope they fix the problems as it would show they do believe in God and what's right but with the church playing more games,politics than religious interests -I've given up on them. It will continue to be about money and pride I believe as the Pope's, top Priests attitudes is what filters down to the masses, like any business or large group organization. If they believe a mysterious group is trying to hurt "Mother Church" and they have to take a military stance that's what they will continue to do but we all know that it's really the past environment of protecting their own not matter what. It really does happen in the best of companies, groups but it's with the grace you handle it and so far it's a nightmare.... To me it really shows the worst in people not the best.

• rainbowbrew | Aug 15, 2011, 10:29 AM EDT

  The bible has been changed thouasands of times (eg teh portion added to Maqrk regarding Christs rise to heaven). They found that in some others writings and said it would look good in Mark. So I ask what is really the truth and what is man's fabrication. can not tell when the proof is fleeting. And it does nto mater this catholic church thing has shown amny in the higher places are probably not really christian as we know the word. I sure wish he would have cleaned house in America. There he saved bishops and moved them to Rome as he did Dr. Magee but to America. Sorry too much corryption and money power to be a christian organization. better off being a chritian without the church, actually you don't need them.

• keneconnor | Aug 15, 2011, 10:05 AM EDT

  Actually the church has been through a lot, lot worse over 2000 years and will be around until the end of time notwithstanding hysterical press in the Irish and now Godless press. Bank on it.

• eiriamach | Aug 15, 2011, 09:49 AM EDT

  helenmcgonigle, you have great courage! Thanks for speaking out on the video about Smyth.

• eiriamach | Aug 15, 2011, 09:40 AM EDT

  Continuing sexual abuse of children by priests, along with obstruction of justice by bishops has driven many from the RCC, yet jacersagain thinks that his talk of miracles will bring them back in droves. Sure, if jacers himself can work a miracle! jacers, I don't doubt that your faith is deep, but the common sense of the disillusioned and angry Catholics is also compelling. A startling cure is no substitute for a thoroughly reformed church.

• jacersagain | Aug 15, 2011, 09:38 AM EDT

  (...more) I have been to Ephesus, where Mary is said [(by local people who live there and who are descendants of families who lived in the area at the time St. John and Virgin Mary were living there; Tradition is as faithful as the teachings in the Bible)] to have died there at the age of 64 (although some miscreants claim she died in Jerusalem) and was laid to rest by St. John, he of the foot of the Cross fame, in a cleft in the low rocky escarpment beside the house near Ephesus that they lived in, a place secret only to John who alone wrapped and buried her - but when, just a day or two later, he led the doubter (St.) Thomas to the place that he laid her in, they were shocked to find her body was no longer there. By this event, and the spreading of the shocking news that Mary’s body was no longer on earth, the doctrine of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary into Heaven was born – but not formally declared until about 1950 yrs afterwards). I repeat, for utmost clarity to all, that to this day, it is the one, single and ONLY formally-declared infallible teaching of the Catholic Church. Intercessor and others like him/her who solely believe in literal interpretations of the Bible should, please, note that most parts the New Testament of the Bible are but parables used by our Lord Jesus Christ. It is up to each of us, as individual intelligent people, guided by the Holy Spirit, to interpret them. The Pope can make all the radical changes he likes for the Church but he cannot and will not change the truth of Christ's message to all dioceses. (Jeepers! Does any one notice, as I have just done, that today is the feast of the Assumption of Our Lady?? I'd bet there's one great hooley going on in Ephesus right now!)

• themurphia | Aug 15, 2011, 09:37 AM EDT

  Yes I understand that is the language of Jesus of Nazareth...and the way he got his message across to the Pharisees...!I repeat I respect your belief and other peoples beliefs...I could not possibly tell anyone to mind their bad language...I find the odd bit of Anglo Saxon is yer only man when all reasonable requests have failed...In fact it is quite therapeutic...as Dave Allen would say May Your God go with You'...

• jacersagain | Aug 15, 2011, 09:33 AM EDT

  On a more seereeusss note: At 02.34am today, Intercessor posted some well-meaning but very erroneous comments below. Among them was mention of ex-cathedra doctrine and “inerrancy” of the Bible. Let us first remember that most of the New Testament is based on Jesus’ use of parables (i.e. as explained in the newadvent.com writings) to illustrate and explain His words and advices to us all. (“A parable is a likeness taken from the sphere of real, or sensible, or earthly incidents, in order to convey an ideal, or spiritual, or heavenly meaning. As uttering one thing and signifying something else, it (a parable) is in the nature of a riddle and has therefore a light and a dark side... intended to stir curiosity, calling for intelligence in the listener). Although ex-cathedra doctrine [literally meaning a teaching from the Chair (of St. Peter)] has been around since the foundation of Christianity, it was only formally declared about one thousand, eight hundred and seventy years after Christ was on earth and has been used formally ONLY ONCE since (in 1950AD, about the Assumption of the body of the Virgin Mary, Christ’s mother, into Heaven).(More...)

• jacersagain | Aug 15, 2011, 09:12 AM EDT

  Thanks to thespudia for saying s/he respects my beliefs, which are shared with a billion other respectful people. However, thespudia shows his/her true colours in telling me to shush me mouth. Well, sorry... but like St. Paul said: if they don’t want to listen and understand the message of Christ, then we should kick the dust of that place off our sandals, move on. St. Paul was a gentleman in saying such words. I can’t but choose to use modern, more widely understood parlance to get St. Paul’s message across and tell people like thespudia to go and Fornicate Under Command of the King themselves. Cheers and thanks for the banter!

• themurphia | Aug 15, 2011, 08:31 AM EDT

  OK I respect your belief I just find incredibubble...!An hush yo' mout' swearin' an stuff...!

• helenmcgonigle | Aug 15, 2011, 08:28 AM EDT

  Please watch Resurrection of Brendan Smyth at youtube.com

• jacersagain | Aug 15, 2011, 08:27 AM EDT

  thespudia should know more than to make fun of truths, esp of those who have been cured of asthma over John's tomb. I'm effin very serious in what I've posted. You can wake up to it or remain an idiotia couch poh tat ah. :-)

• themurphia | Aug 15, 2011, 07:30 AM EDT

  I think there's a lot of stuff being snorted around here Colombian marching powder most probably...!'Air from St John's tomb'...You cannot be SeeReeUsss!!!!!

• jacersagain | Aug 15, 2011, 07:02 AM EDT

  @helmet365 – yr post at 02.49am today shows how ignorant you are of Christ’s manifestations of the power of His Father. Have you not known of your God’s ability (yes, He is YOUR God, in fact He is everyone’s God, even if you don’t believe in Him) to manifest His power. For example, did you know that the vast majority of the many miracles that occurred in Lourdes, France, happened during the passing by of the Holy Eucharist during ceremonies of praise, prayer and acceptance of God and fewer of them happened in the miraculous waters that Bernadette uncovered there??... That, for example, a 40-odd yrs old man, blind from the day of his birth, was gob-smacked in Lourdes to be cured of blindness and see what we “normals” see? What a shock that must have been for him - a real eye opener! For feck’s sake helmet365, get real, get with it and with us privileged to be Christians in any diocese, however radically changed it might become.

• jacersagain | Aug 15, 2011, 06:59 AM EDT

  For Jaysus sake,Townie, oul’ pal! - will ye ever get yourself sorted out? That comment of yrs at 04.44am today was uncharacteristic and shows just how lost you are. There’s no gobbly-gook in factual history or in miracles (i.e. unexplainable occurrences of healing of disabled and sick people, e.g. asthmatics snorting air out of St. John’s tomb, as I wrote about below, or that lady who had MS and who now voluntarily works tirelessly in Knock (Co. Mayo, Ireland) so that people should know of God’s power to heal. There is no way that there can be a new way of thinking about Jesus Christ’s message to us all, including to you. However, a new way of administration of God’s and His Son, Christ’s, message is possible and very desirable. Let’s not forget that Jesus Himself radically changed the world’s thinking and knowledge of God.

• Towngate | Aug 15, 2011, 04:44 AM EDT

  The gobble-de-gook comments below generally indicate just how much damage has been done to Irish psychology ... truly frightening. The headline and the article demonstrate a great deal of acceptance still. A new order. A new Ireland. A new way of thinking. That is what is obviously needed now; so the headline perhaps, should be " IRELAND PLANS RADICAL CHANGE FOR POPE"!

• helmet365 | Aug 15, 2011, 02:49 AM EDT

  michaelholloran, Now that was a mouthful. Michael you may find the truth is God has not manifested himself or herself to anyone on earth and all this is made up by people seeking to know why we are here, so the masses follow like sheep.This is how religions start. Now that makes it interesting doesn't it.

• Intercessor | Aug 15, 2011, 02:34 AM EDT

  Jesus promised that His Kingdom would be "WITHIN." This is the ONLY kingdom that the Gates of Hell can't come against: the kingdom of God, in the heart of each and every Christian, regardless of denomination. For centuries the Church taught us that She was the only way to salvation. It was known as "The Ex Cathedra Doctrine." Unfortunately for the Vatican, Scripture clearly taught: "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever would believe upon Him would have eternal life (John 3:16). As a Cradle-Catholic, I would rather believe the inerrancy of Scripture, rather than the errors of the Vatican, when it comes to the topic of my salvation. What about you? Regarding His followers, Jesus also taught, "By their fruits you will know them." Look at the "fruits" of the bishops, all around the world. Since when is the criminal coverups of acts of Pedophilia a fruit of the Holy Spirit? Since when is lying, but calling it "mental reservation," a permissible fruit of the Holy Spirit? By their rotten, stinky "fruits" I think that we know most of them. Archbishop Martin is one of the few men in the Hierarchy, in the whole world, who has acted like a representative of Christ on earth. Hide and watch, and see how he will be rewarded. Instead of the Vatican honoring him, he'll probably be taken out of Ireland and brought back to the Vatican, when he'll be in charge of selecting wall paper for the Vatican bathrooms.

• michaelholloran | Aug 15, 2011, 02:15 AM EDT

  ...To God Be all the Glory, and all the Praise, and allof the Honor ! Father / Abba-Daddy God, Gesua His only Son, Our Lord and Saviour and King of Kings ! And to the Most Holy Spirit, The Paraclete, the Love between the Father and the Son, the True Spouse of the Ever, Virgin Mary, the Favored Daughter of our Heavenly Father, the Mother of His Only Son, Jesus the Christ, and our Heavenly Mother ! To God Be The Glory ! Forever and Ever !

• helmet365 | Aug 14, 2011, 11:27 PM EDT

  canadianirish Thanks for your comments. I am sorry if you feel threatened by my my post.I really feel Jesus would be saying Helmet please take over down there as these clowns are destroying my church . I repeat "the Church must change or die". God bless.

• Collette2 | Aug 14, 2011, 10:27 PM EDT

  The impact of the corruption within the Church has sent a big message to Catholic's worldwide. Hopefully this change will apply to every country, incuding down under. The coverups there by Bishops other priests's and misguided faithful, has prevented the holocaust taken place there to come to light long ago. Some one had to take the lead.

• JoeCupertino | Aug 14, 2011, 09:38 PM EDT

  I am very familiar with DIY Christianity b/c I grew up and live in a non-Catholic country. The question one has to asks is what is true Christianity? Picking up a Bible and saying, "Lord, Lord" is not enough. One has to accept Christ the King and His Church (the one founded on St. Peter in the Gospel of Matthew). All the protestant churches at some point split away from the Church led by St. Peter and his successors. Ireland should not abandon its traditions for secularism and mammonism (across the pond, I've heard your banks have already fixed you up nicely). Corruption in the Church is a scandal, and as a parent of young children, I grieve for the innocents who have been abused. The problem is that the Church needs to regain its discipline, return to its principles and have a just process to remove the bad eggs. The world has infected the Church instead of being evangelized by it. The Catholic Church hasn't cornered the market on sexual perversion or other forms of corruption. Take a look at Western civilization and culture in general. Many of those who are raking the Church over the coals for abuse, are also clamoring for the same sexual revolution that is destroying our countries and cultures. Many of them are in favor of homosexuality, lowering the age of consent, no fault divorce, abortion, contraception, porno, etc., but they are the first ones to get on their high horse to condemn the Church. I don't see the countries adopting those policies doing very well. In fact, they are in decline.

• jacersagain | Aug 14, 2011, 09:37 PM EDT

  Searlit might be right... I kneeled on the stoned ground over the tomb of St. John in Ephesus a couple of yrs ago. I thought I heard him say from his grave “Hello Irishman! Welcome!” Did you know that any asthmatic person who kneels over the rails over the tomb of St. John in Ephesus and says a fervent prayer for a cure while sniffing or snorting the air out of John’s tomb into their nostrils is cured of asthma for life? The local Christians in that part of Turkey say that the story is that John himself was an asthmatic. May I add that visiting and attending 7.15am (local time) Mass in the wee House of Mary and John in Ephesus was life-changing for me. It was excruciatingly beautiful.

• Searlit | Aug 14, 2011, 08:22 PM EDT

  I read that before the Synod of Whitby, in 664, the Irish church was centered around St. John.

• jacersagain | Aug 14, 2011, 07:59 PM EDT

  @ canadianirish – try saying "too little, too late to Jesus Christ who lives and reigns forever and ever. @ helmet365 - that's a stupid comment of yours. Christ's Church will never die. It's as alive today as when he started it 2000 yrs ago and will be when you breath your last breath. Pls remember that and show respect on yr last breathing.

• canadianirish | Aug 14, 2011, 07:48 PM EDT

  Too little, too late...

• JoeCupertino | Aug 14, 2011, 07:42 PM EDT

  I am very familiar with DIY Christianity b/c I grew up and live in a non-Catholic country. The question one has to asks is what is true Christianity? Picking up a Bible and saying, "Lord, Lord" is not enough. One has to accept Christ the King and His Church (the one founded on St. Peter in the Gospel of Matthew). All the protestant churches at some point split away from the Church led by St. Peter and his successors. Ireland should not abandon its traditions for secularism and mammonism (across the pond, I've heard your banks have already fixed you up nicely). Corruption in the Church is a scandal, and as a parent of young children, I grieve for the innocents who have been abused. The problem is that the Church needs to regain its discipline, return to its principles and have a just process to remove the bad eggs. The world has infected the Church instead of being evangelized by it. The Catholic Church hasn't cornered the market on sexual perversion or other forms of corruption. Take a look at Western civilization and culture in general. Many of those who are raking the Church over the coals for abuse, are also clamoring for the same sexual revolution that is destroying our countries and cultures. Many of them are in favor of homosexuality, lowering the age of consent, no fault divorce, abortion, contraception, porno, etc., but they are the first ones to get on their high horse to condemn the Church. I don't see the countries adopting those policies doing very well. In fact, they are in decline.

• helmet365 | Aug 14, 2011, 07:01 PM EDT

  As a previous poster said ,these preposed changes open the way for more Opus Dei card carrying members. The Church will go down faster, the next younger generations will see to that. Changes have to be made from the top in many areas and adapt to our times. Vatican so far are unable or unwilling to do this. "The Church must change or die".

• jacersagain | Aug 14, 2011, 06:43 PM EDT

  (...more) We happily believing people of the RCC laity, us plebs, do not have the talent, religious education, religious philosophy or depth of faith that the vast majority of priests, bishops and Cardinals have to consider or manage Christianity for ourselves - what JoeCupertino calls DIY Christianity. We do not have that special vocation. Those who call for radical changes - for example, for women priests, or gay marriages in the Sacrament of Matrimony - are usually found to have ulterior motives and are actually aiming to create openings to have the very ‘perceived’ power they themselves criticise. I’m all for administrative reform in Ireland, in Rome and elsewhere, even for married priests, but not for reform of the central tenets of Christ’s teachings which I love – and that won’t happen in Rome or anywhere else in all of the Catholic Churches – today, tomorrow or in 2000yrs time – no matter what any person attacking the RCC says or does. So will those attacking please shut up, save your wild misdirected and uneducated rants to go and bark up another tree – or else be welcomed to join us who, with great privileged joy, still believe in and respect the tradition of the One Holy and Apostolic Church.

• jacersagain | Aug 14, 2011, 06:39 PM EDT

  (...more) Interestingly, the term Pope was originally assumed by early Eastern Christian Churches’ leaders (before it was commonly called in Rome) and still exists within them today but even those Eastern Churches in communion w/ Rome accept the authority of Roman Popes to lead overall as the rightful Leading Successor of the Apostles. Furthermore, most people forget that the Pope runs the Catholic Church together (or, officially, “in communion”) with the College of Cardinals, so almost every decision or utterance by a Pope is largely through consultation with his Cardinals and I think this should be acknowledged more as such by people, very especially by media people. Even the letter that I, in Ireland, received from Pope Benedict through my parish church in the wake of the Murphy and Ryan reports would have been drafted in consultation with his Cardinals. In decision-making of greater catholic significance, there is consultation with Eastern Churches, which we don’t hear often enough about. I therefore think that most people attacking the Roman Church forget that the Church’s inspiration comes from a much wider base than that of Rome. There are many dioceses in the Christian Church worldwide, all led by a bishop with the same aim – to lead on and teach and spread Christ’s message to those who have not yet heard or perhaps rejected it. At least give them credit for that, whatever way one views some of them for disgraceful mismanagement of some certain temporal matters. (More...)

• bailtone | Aug 14, 2011, 06:39 PM EDT

  I think the only Bishop we have had in Ireland and was branded for what he done was the great Bishop Eamon Casey. How about bringing him back and replacing the shameful Arch Bishop of Ireland Sean Brady who is as bad as the rest of them. Bishop Casey must be laughing all the way to heaven while the rest of them will rot in hell and that goes for the bad nuns as well who were evil,shame on you all ye ran the country for how long? not any more it time to answer for what ye done and be punished. How about a public flogging or hanging.

• jacersagain | Aug 14, 2011, 06:36 PM EDT

  (Excuse my following posts – I wrote them while others like peterson and Gearoid4 and others posted theirs). I think JoeCupertino’s comment at 2.14pm hit every nail on the head rightly and I fully agree with him. While visiting the tombs or relics of 9 of the original Apostles, I wondered and prayed before them, for what they would say to me and the Church they founded as it is today. I couldn’t help but think like JoeCupertino – that we need to return to the privileged humility and simplicity of their teachings and reminders of Christ’s words. I would not be in favour of the Irish Catholic Church breaking away from Rome. It would then become similar to the Chinese Catholic Church (yes, I know there is both a State-approved Catholic Church and an underground Catholic Church in that country) – it is somewhat lost without true overall concerted leadership. Way back in time the Christian Church was largely made up of local churches but it was decided at a Council (by the bishops of the then independent local churches, or dioceses) throughout the Christian Church to acknowledge the Bishop of Rome as the head of the Christian Church as successor of St. Peter and because Saints Peter and Paul were martyred there. The Bishops (and Popes) of Alexandria and Antioch agreed with that at the time. I accept that ancient decision, and I will contentedly live with it, whoever is elected Bishop, and therefore Pope, of Rome. Did you know that ANY male catholic can be Pope, not necessarily an ordained priest, bishop or Cardinal? When Pope John Paul II was elected, there was speculation before his election, that an “outsider”, the Head of the Jesuit Order at the time, who was not a Cardinal, could be elected to the Chair of Peter by the Cardinals in Papal Enclave. (More...)

• bailtone | Aug 14, 2011, 06:19 PM EDT

  I think the only Bishop we have had in Ireland and was branded for what he done was the great Bishop Eamon Casey how about bringing him back and replacing the shameful arch Bishop of Ireland Sean Brady who is as bad as the rest them.Bishop Casey must be langhing all the way to heaven while the rest of them will root in hell and that goes for yhe bad nuns as well

• cynicus | Aug 14, 2011, 05:31 PM EDT

  Seems to me that what the Irish Bishops did in the past was done as part of a corporate management policy of the Roman Catholic Church. The cover-up and 'damage-limitation' for the church was a standard procedure across the Irish Catholic Church, and I am convicnced that the same procedures applied to all Dioceses in all countries. The Pope is moving too little too late. Nothing is done in the Catholic Church until it is absolutely unavoidable in order to save the corporate church. That is basically Anti-Christ behaviour. Seems also that abuse victims of the Church micsreants and Church management are now getting 'the scraps that fall from their Master's table.' Where has Jesus gone? Where has his message gone? Where has his church gone? Where will his flock go? We need a Good Shepherd and fast!

• helenmcgonigle | Aug 14, 2011, 04:58 PM EDT

  Please watch the Resurrection of Brendan Smyth at www.youtube.com Here is the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODvv6tQ3naQ Cardinal Brady concealed the crimes of Fr. Brendan Smyth for close to two decades and despite criminal investigations and prosecutions. This cover up goes all the way to the top and the posturing by the Vatican because they can't stand the truth coming out and the bad PR, is so disingenous. Brady should have resigned March of 2010 when the truth exploded in his face and since then Resurrection of Brendan Smyth was aired and BBC's docudrama, Betrayal of Trust: the Brendan Smyth Affair and the Catholic Church. RTE in Ireland keeps showing and it hopeful will continue to do so until the infleunce of Roman has been cast from its shores. The Irish people are strong and intelligent and had many many years of spirituality for centuries and centuries before Roman had any influence. Bring back those times!

• supersurvivor77 | Aug 14, 2011, 03:25 PM EDT

  CATHOLICABUSESURVIVORSNI.COM----as stated a year ago cardinal sean brady will resign, the end is now insight for this leading hypocrite paedophile church protector, who has been at the centre of many not one child sex abuse cases in the media.its a damage limitation excercise game now to follow, the vatican changes to ireland are simply they dont have so many decieving unbiblical priests and the pews are empty now for the wise people fled throwing up.

• alphonsus123 | Aug 14, 2011, 03:21 PM EDT

  He might possibly encourage parishioners to have a criminal check undertaken on each parish priest before letting them loose on an unsuspecting congregation?

• devlenboy | Aug 14, 2011, 03:02 PM EDT

  msgr.only the finest come out of maynooth!i have studied irish history in the monastery this past year.wood that the seminaries all come to your bastion. the dander of having no say in romes' appointment would probably be a senior grey haired member of the"club'. tHESE ARE THE VERY PEOPLE THE IRISH DON'T WANT.JUST A GEOGRAPHICAL CHANGE FOR ANOTHER CURIA OR OPUS DEI CARD CARRIER

• AengusOg | Aug 14, 2011, 02:55 PM EDT

  Ah yes, it is the Pope and Rome, not the Irish Bishops who are the problem. So if we ditch the Papacy, our own lovely boys will no longer fear prosecuting pedophiles. MDs, lawyers, the media and religions all have their own 'blue wall of silence'. They circle the wagons to prevent exposure when one of their own is guilty of malfeasance. A church run by Irish bishops will be little different. If the parishes had administrative autonomy, the central organization would be more willing to expose and punish bad priests before they became bad bishops. As with Rome vs. Irish bishops, it's a comfort to be able to say, "It is them, not us."

• Gearoid4 | Aug 14, 2011, 02:50 PM EDT

  Wanakbrannan, This myth about a separate, self-contained "Celtic Church" is not given any credit by historians of the Irish Medieval period. It was rather a local branch of the universal Church which absorbed customs from the mainly pagan environment. Other parts of Europe had their own indigenous rites i.e Gallican rite in Gaul(France) or the Ambrosian rite in Milan(northern Italy) but they were still part of the Latin West just like the Irish Church. The myth of the "Celtic" church was originally instigated by protestant divines in the 16/17th centuries to give the false idea that there existed pure churches untainted by an connection with Rome before the coming of Augustine to British shores in 597 A.D. The details concerning the origins of Christianity and it's early progress in Ireland and Britain are very sketchy and the contemporary sources consist of hagiography which is not totally trustworthy.

• Gearoid4 | Aug 14, 2011, 02:40 PM EDT

  JoeCupertino has put the reality of the Catholic Faith very eloquently. Some commentators are for breaking with Rome but this may seem superficially attractive to those who want to form their own national "church" and make it in it's own image. The ramifications of this mentality is all too evident in the factional chaos produced in protestantism since it's inception in the 16th C. There will be radical pruning of the Irish Church but this type of administrative action on it's own will not haul the Church back from the brink. A rediscovery of the personality and message left behind by God made Man who was incarnated on this earth some 2000 years is essential for any hopes of gaining credibility again.

• peterson | Aug 14, 2011, 02:35 PM EDT

  JoeC -- You hit the nail right on the head !!!

• JoeCupertino | Aug 14, 2011, 02:14 PM EDT

  We have thousands of different Protestant groups here in the USA with women clergy, married clergy and gay clergy that advocate everything under the sun, including abortion, contraception, socialism, democratic elections, etc. It's do-it-yourself Christianity with little doctrinal or liturgical cohesion whatsoever. Most of these groups (excepting the conservative "Evangelical" ones) are imploding, so I don't see how changing the Catholic Church to follow failed models will solve anything. The Church has existed for nearly 2000 years and has survived Judas priests (bishops and popes included), heresy, schism, State suppression, etc. The problem isn't the Church so much as a break-down of discipline and orthodoxy. The Church needs to return to its roots, recover the munus regendi and get rid of bad apples as soon as they are known. Reverence and solemnity need to be restored in the Mass as well, whether it be a return to the traditional form or a reform of the new one. The nonsense has to end. It's sad to see the faith implode in Ireland, one of the last bastions of Catholicism. The world, the devil and flesh are at work uprooting and destroying the Faith everywhere, both inside and outside the Church, but this is the trajectory of Catholic eschatology, so it's not surprising to see the Church apparently on the ropes.

• barneyjo | Aug 14, 2011, 02:14 PM EDT

  @GeorgeDillon - You are probably also aware that many of the churches of which you speak permit their priests to marry and to have children. Furthermore, if they choose to do so, they are excluded from consideration for a Bishop's seat. They also recognise the Bishop of Rome (The Pope) as the titular Head of their Churches. Well do I remember attending a concelebrated mass in my church where a visiting priest from such a church participated. I subsequently learned that he was married and had a large family. He didnt seem any less a priest because of his married state to me at the time!! @SeamusMor - Not if Christ has anything to do with it!!

• barneyjo | Aug 14, 2011, 02:12 PM EDT

  @GeorgeDillon - You are probably also aware that many of the churches of which you speak permit their priests to marry and to have children. Furthermore, if they choose to do so, they are excluded from consideration for a Bishop's seat. They also recognise the Bishop of Rome (The Pope) as the titular Head of their Churches. Well do I remember attending a concelebrated mass in my church where a visiting priest from such a church participated. I subsequently learned that he was married and had a large family. He didnt seem any less a priest because of his married state to me at the time!!

• jack4950 | Aug 14, 2011, 01:32 PM EDT

  Divine Mercy, American New Catholic church in Wilton Manors, Florida is as Catholic as Pattys pig, we just do not bow down to the Pope and his gang in the Romoney Catholic Church. Mass today had three new people, two men and one man (one had not been in a church in over 30 years). I encourage the people in the new Irish Catholic church to throw off the yoke of the Romoney Church. I bet the people will come flocking back whenthey see its their church once and for all. Priests be real priests of Jesus and dont sell your soul out for a pension. Father John Joseph Reid newdivinemercy.org

• JohnJoe4444 | Aug 14, 2011, 01:30 PM EDT

  The Pope's notion of "radical" may differ from most other people. We have been under the heel of Rome for many centuries. Have we, perhaps, been invaded by Rome in a more pervasive way than by England? Rome's handling of the rape of children and it's protection of the child rapists has been shameful and misguided. This needs to be acknowledged by Rome before true healing can begin. My parents were devout and holy people. They were devoted to the Church. Their memory has been insulted by the actions and inactions of the Vatican.

• Jimsales74 | Aug 14, 2011, 01:01 PM EDT

  AngelPrecious said:LOL, Phlutie, the US Church is NOT under Rome's control. How in the world did you ever come up with THAT idea??? 1) We call ourselves Roman Catholics. 2) US Archbishops are appointed by the Pope in Rome, and serve at his pleasure. 3) Theological and policy decrees are made by the Pope and instituted here. 4) The Pope is the head of the Church Any Questions? Regardless, It's all a bunch of nonsense originally instituted to create power and wealth; and to keep the unwashed masses at bay with the threat of eternal damnation for all who would dare challenge their overlords who were born to power by the grace of God, and anointed by by His henchmen. As Christ (allegedly) told us all: Call no man Father, as ye have but one Father in Heaven. As for the rest, there is no such thing as a 'true' Christian. And every Christian has been breaking the 4th Commandment since the council of Laodicea in 364 A.D. Face it folks, Christ said a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Now do the math!

• rugbyplayer | Aug 14, 2011, 12:54 PM EDT

  Just what Ireland DOESN'T need: more interference from the Vatican! Let the national synod of Irish bishops do their job and Rome stay out of it. Rome, not ,Ireland is the problem.

• ellenfromcork | Aug 14, 2011, 12:36 PM EDT

  I know the Pope's idea of "radical changes" and the people of Ireland's idea of radical changes are not going to match in any way.

• SeamusMor | Aug 14, 2011, 12:33 PM EDT

  The Church is two thousand years old. In two thousand years it will be four thousand years old. Nothing any of us have to say today will be remembered then.

• jmKelley | Aug 14, 2011, 12:23 PM EDT

  @ Irishphotograph, I'm with you on breaking from Rome, but the Irish people with never be "biblical" (evangelical, Calvinist) Christians. We are essentially Catholic (apostolic, liturgical). The challenge is to be Catholic without the Romanism -- to distinguish between the garbage and the flowers of our Catholic faith. "Don't let the institutional church get in the way of your relationship with God" Father Mychal Judge, "the Saint of 9/11"

• PeterPaul | Aug 14, 2011, 12:17 PM EDT

  The pope should not be planning anything for the Irish Church. The People of Ireland should be making the required changes. Nothing will change if the Vatican is making the decisions. The people need to elect their own bishops and pastors. The People should require Married Priests and Optional Celibacy. A church closer to Irish roots would certianly be expected.

• Irishphotograph | Aug 14, 2011, 11:36 AM EDT

  If the Roman church was solely a political entity in Ireland. Irish men and women would have went to war with this false Christian church along time ago. If Ireland is to succeed we need to break from Rome and create our own Christian Biblical church where our Christian roots are.

• AngelPrecious | Aug 14, 2011, 10:34 AM EDT

  LOL, Phlutie, the US Church is NOT under Rome's control. How in the world did you ever come up with THAT idea??? And saying that most of priests that were the "problemators" were educated in the US is also a joke. It doesn't surprise me that the Irish cannot accept responsibility for their problems and need to blame the US for everything! @AengusOg, have you ever thought that fewer candidates may mean true vocations? I have met quite a few of the seminarians in our Diocese and I am deeply impressed with both the quality and holiness of these candidates!In fact, I just had dinner with one after Mass last night and he is going to make a wonderful priest!

• GeorgeDillon | Aug 14, 2011, 10:27 AM EDT

  jmKelley--you make an interesting point. There are several Eastern Churches which are "in communion with Rome" and everyone is happy. There would be a lot to be said for an Irish Church that went back to the beautiful roots of simplicity and poverty of the old Celtic Church, and it could still be in communion with Rome. I'm a Catholic but I'm scandalized when I visit cemeteries such as Glasnevin and see the huge ornate memorials of priests, going back to the 19th century. That's when the Irish Church went off the rails, in the nineteenth-century, when it abandoned the heroic tradition of patriotic priests like Fr Murphy, and turned instead to Rome.

• AengusOg | Aug 14, 2011, 10:22 AM EDT

  These changes seem to be a window-dressing response to the outcry from the laity rather than to directly address the problem. More than a slight change in the organizational chart is required. A change in the entire system is needed. For a start, parish councils should be entrusted with far greater involvement in local financial and personnel decisions. From where will tomorrow's clergy come? The fewer the candidates, the less qualified, emotionally and intellectually, future clergy will be. There are a host of similar challenges that must be met if the church is going to be a relevant link between God and man.

• PhlutiePhan | Aug 14, 2011, 10:21 AM EDT

  The idea of ridding the church of Roman control is not a new one. That is what happened in the US and appears to have been instigated for gay control. That was John May who took over the US Catholic Bishops Conference in the 80s. JPII jumped on that with "both feet". The sex abuse issues were exported from the US to Ireland. The major "problemators" were educated in the US.

• jmKelley | Aug 14, 2011, 09:56 AM EDT

  Rome can change the faces, but we Catholics will still be subject to “the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism, and narcissism that dominate the culture of the Vatican to this day,” as PM Kenny put it. I’d rather the Irish Church be rid of Roman control entirely, along the lines of the Old Catholics and other independent Catholic jurisdictions.

• donal1951 | Aug 14, 2011, 09:38 AM EDT

  Maine, larger geographically than all of Ireland, has but one diocese with a single bishop. Its population is a bit more than one million souls, not all Roman Catholic. It is difficult to conceive of 26 diocese in Ireland in this day of the automobile.

• BGAndersson | Aug 14, 2011, 09:32 AM EDT

  "recalling that Pope John Paul 11 was only 43 when he took over as Archbishop of Krakow." That's Pope John Paul II - that's a Roman Numeral, not John Paul the 11th